RIP Steve Albini

2024-05-08 by Eldar777 | 220 Comments
Legendary American record producer and musician Steve Albini has died of heart attack at his studio May 7th aged 61.

Albini's legacy is way too big to describe in one news item. As well as being the frontman of Shellac and Big Black, Albini was famous for his work as a studio engineer and producer. He recorded Nirvana’s In Utero, Pixies’ Surfer Rosa, PJ Harvey’s Rid of Me and many, many more iconic albums.

Shellac's LP To All Trains, the band's first in 10 years, is scheduled to be released next week, and the band was preparing for a tour.

Rest in peace to the greatest.

https://pitchfork.com/news/steve-albini-storied-producer-and-icon-of-the-rock-underground-dies-at-61/

Tagged: Shellac

Comments:Add a Comment 
Illoomorpheme
May 8th 2024
485 Comments


Jesus man.

Huge RIP.

SteakByrnes
May 8th 2024
29855 Comments


huge rip, came outta nowhere

brainmelter
Contributing Reviewer
May 8th 2024
8336 Comments


RIP

mkmusic1995
Contributing Reviewer
May 8th 2024
1788 Comments


One of the best to ever do it, Rest in Peace to a legend.

ChaoticVortex
May 8th 2024
1596 Comments


Fucking gutted. Never did drugs and alcohol. Still dead at just 61. Heart attack.

Currently jamming to Surfer Rosa. Thank you Steve. Your work will never be forgotten. R.I.P.

Koris
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
21185 Comments


Huge RIP to an absolute icon. Gonna jam Big Black and Shellac tonight in his honor

cylinder
May 8th 2024
2594 Comments


devastating. massive RIP.

demigod!
May 8th 2024
49620 Comments


i am completely in shock. gutted. floored. devastated. idk what to say.

VlacDrac
May 8th 2024
2495 Comments


Big RIP. His contributions to music will always be remembered. Inconmensurable lost.

Supercoolguy64
May 8th 2024
11793 Comments


Terrible, truly the king of the American underground

BAT
May 8th 2024
1893 Comments


Rip, legend

Futures
May 8th 2024
10837 Comments


so sad man. underground music wouldn't have been the same without him. rip.

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 8th 2024
9467 Comments


Of course dude died in the studio lmao, imagine he wouldn't have wanted it any other way

Genuinely a little surreal that he's gone. Rest in peace

Boognish79
May 8th 2024
118 Comments


Albini is a legend. Too many accomplishments to even list. RIP

Zakusz
May 8th 2024
1585 Comments


Oh man, one of the greatest! The closing segment he made possible on Stones From the Sky is one of my favorite moments in all of music! What a legend

SlothcoreSam
May 8th 2024
6218 Comments


R.I.P. to a true legend.

His golden touch is evident on my ratings, so many great releases.

gabba
May 8th 2024
1073 Comments


He said it was The Ramones that opened up his eyes, he would have never been the same without them. Steve was just as influential as his idols to sooo many bands having emerged in the past 30+ years, and counting. Not only his music, sound production, but work ethics as well, and how he showed a middle finger to hypocrisy. A legend.

Snake.
May 8th 2024
25270 Comments


rest in power king

man I’m fucking gutted

fogza
Contributing Reviewer
May 8th 2024
9848 Comments


Amazing career, rest in peace steve

CugnoBrasso
May 8th 2024
2705 Comments


Aw this came as a surprise, huge fan of his snare sound.

SomeCallMeTim
May 8th 2024
4159 Comments


Steve's influenced easily over half of the sound of music I listen to. This is terrible

RIP King

Tunaboy45
May 8th 2024
18429 Comments


can't believe it, he produced for everyone and wasn't a scumbag to artists, RIP

ConcubinaryCode
May 8th 2024
7605 Comments


Fuck, this is a big loss. It really does feel like only the good die young. RIP

Flugmorph
May 8th 2024
34363 Comments


man this fucking sucks
RIP to the GOAT

DadKungFu
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
4894 Comments


Albini did more for rock music than Elvis RIP

AsleepInTheBack
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
10227 Comments


Ah fuck

gravityswitch
May 8th 2024
1909 Comments


big big rip

chemicalmarriage
May 8th 2024
4307 Comments


RIP

StonedManatee
May 8th 2024
552 Comments


Fuck, Songs about Fucking by Big Black is my favorite punk rock album. I fucking listened to In Utero by Nirvana and that was my first taste of his production like most of the people on this site. Fuck. RIP. Fuck

Rowan5215
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
47661 Comments


RIP. drum sound on Rid of Me is just the greatest ever captured

Demon of the Fall
May 8th 2024
33949 Comments


truly a legend of independent music. I can’t believe he was due to play a gig right near me in a month. So sudden. RIP

Valzentia
May 8th 2024
1411 Comments


Incalculably huge loss. RIP Steve :'(

artificialbox
May 8th 2024
1733 Comments


RIP. That bit in the article about him playing poker is hilarious. Classic Steve.

unclereich
May 8th 2024
12093 Comments


dying at his studio what a legend, rip to one of the greats

MillionDead
May 8th 2024
5342 Comments


So fucking sad I never got to witness him play. This is entirely too early for him.

bloc
May 8th 2024
70260 Comments


Big RIP, very shocking news

mryrtmrnfoxxxy
May 8th 2024
16654 Comments


RIP thanks for the tunes

onionbubs
May 8th 2024
21109 Comments


one of the greats. huge rip

rockandmetaljunkie
May 8th 2024
9621 Comments


Terrible loss, RIP

ArsMoriendi
May 8th 2024
41087 Comments


RIP, jamming Steelworker right now in his honor

kkarron
May 8th 2024
1396 Comments


wha the actual fuck, he just had an album coming out!?

judasgoat
May 8th 2024
353 Comments


Fucking gutted, RIP to a true icon.

zakalwe
May 8th 2024
38956 Comments


First producer I was ever aware of.
A massive, massive part of my musical upbringing.
RIP

GiaNXGX
May 8th 2024
5389 Comments


Ain’t no way, rip

ArsMoriendi
May 8th 2024
41087 Comments


Big Black was one of the few discographies I got into in the same week

2 LPs, 4 EPs, and a rarity collection

delajetsetradio
May 8th 2024
32 Comments


This is shocking news. One of the most important artists for Rock and Punk music ever.

Dewinged
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
32047 Comments


I'm in disbelief. What the actual fuck.

Rest in peace.

neekafat
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
26231 Comments


"wha the actual fuck, he just had an album coming out!?"[2]

what a huge loss R.I.P.

robertsona
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
27508 Comments


Crazy death. Reminds you it can happen to anyone at any time. But I remember the festival ATP NY and shellac playing and him having a literal poker room in the hotel where the fest was

Frost15
May 8th 2024
3091 Comments


This one hits deep. One of my fav producers of all time and a great human being. Jeez man... These sudden deaths are so unfair.

AmericanFlagAsh
May 8th 2024
13335 Comments


RIP damn

Grungil
May 8th 2024
604 Comments


One of my favorite producers, huge loss for music in general. RIP Steve.

DominionMM1
May 8th 2024
21124 Comments


rip legend

evilford
May 8th 2024
64461 Comments


Aw fuck. Huge RIP

Winesburgohio
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
3991 Comments


what the fuck absolutely not. R.I.P.

Frost15
May 8th 2024
3091 Comments


Spiderland - Tweez. Om - God is Good. Neurosis - Times of Grace. The Jesus Lizard - Goat.

If you recall any of these albums dearly Steve has a part of that. His passionate defense of analog recording made the music industry way better. Huge R.I.P

Winesburgohio
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
3991 Comments


cool lil letter he sent to Nirvana before working with them https://news.lettersofnote.com/p/nirvana

Frost15
May 8th 2024
3091 Comments


@Winesburgohio Thanks for sharing! Dude was a legend, always loved his philosophy

Winesburgohio
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
3991 Comments


man was all about batting for the lil guy https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

SomeCallMeTim
May 8th 2024
4159 Comments


he was honestly a hero for music in general

kevbogz
May 8th 2024
6114 Comments


RIP GOAT

cylinder
May 8th 2024
2594 Comments


That essay The Problem With Music is brilliant. Just read that for my first time today. Thanks for sharing that, Wines.

Dewinged
Staff Reviewer
May 8th 2024
32047 Comments


Thanks for sharing that letter, Wines. Man, what a legend.

gabba
May 8th 2024
1073 Comments


The letter to Nirvana is also a gem:
“I also love the puke-inducing low end that comes off an old Fender Bassman or Ampeg guitar amp and the totally blown sound of an SVT with broken-in tubes.”
Now that’s passionate.

GhostShelter
May 8th 2024
973 Comments


Too soon. RIP.

Spec
May 8th 2024
39519 Comments


RIP. I read that he died in the studio, how appropriate.

DadKungFu
Staff Reviewer
May 9th 2024
4894 Comments


Buying a loaf of fresh bread, and some good cheese or roast beef, which I will enjoy much more in his memory

ThyCrossAwaits
May 9th 2024
3993 Comments


Nothing I can say that hasn’t been said, but I am utterly devastated by this loss. The man was in part responsible for some of the greatest records of all time. I was really looking forward to maybe seeing Shellac…

Rest well, Steve.

Trebor.
Emeritus
May 9th 2024
59872 Comments


Such a massive loss

JayEnder
May 9th 2024
20012 Comments


Fuck, devastating loss for sure. RIP.

Senetrix666
May 9th 2024
1585 Comments


this is a sad fucking song

Muhlysa
May 9th 2024
387 Comments


We'll be lucky if I don't bust out cryin'

bananatossing
May 9th 2024
2331 Comments


Sad to see him go relatively young still. RIP

pennyroyal22
May 9th 2024
100 Comments


The passing of a legend. One week before new Shellac too.

The Pitchfork obituary is a good read -- I knew he was interesting but I didn't know he was *that* interesting.

someone
Contributing Reviewer
May 9th 2024
6667 Comments


Fuck me. Literally maybe one of the most influential musicians in rock ever, while staying largely behind the scenes

fromrows
May 9th 2024
461 Comments


This is shocking, I cant comprehend this at all.

RogueNine
May 9th 2024
5555 Comments


He's on the Mt. Rushmore for sure.

bigguytoo9
May 9th 2024
1416 Comments


RIP ya talented prick.

CaliggyJack
May 9th 2024
10055 Comments


This guy literally defined a generation of Noise fans. His work with Whitehouse is legendary.

Rest in peace you magnificent bastard.

CugnoBrasso
May 9th 2024
2705 Comments


Without Albini, we would remember the 90s as the Spice Girls decade.

henryChinaski
May 9th 2024
5042 Comments


way too young

RIP

Sabrutin
May 9th 2024
9727 Comments


RIP

DePlazz
May 9th 2024
4497 Comments


Huge loss this. Gonna jam me some Rapeman hard.
RIP

Voivod
Staff Reviewer
May 9th 2024
10742 Comments


Fucking terrible news, RIP, when I first listened to Times of Grace, it opened my mind to a whole new sound as a fan of heavy music.

-- Without Albini, we would remember the 90s as the Spice Girls decade.

and Oasis I might add...

Wildcardbitchesss
May 9th 2024
12207 Comments


I have nothing to say that anyone here hasn’t already said. Hard RIP to an absolute legend… one of the best to ever do it

DoofDoof
May 9th 2024
15108 Comments


This is a tough one to take, RIP

EvoHavok
May 9th 2024
8082 Comments


R.I.P.

Pajolero
May 9th 2024
1428 Comments


Absolutely gutted

Ladron93
May 9th 2024
216 Comments


ooof, I really like Pixies’ Surfer Rosa.

KevinKC
May 9th 2024
1284 Comments


Rest in peace.

"huge rip, came outta nowhere"
61 yo, unexpected heart attack in 2024 probably came outta somewhere.

Voivod
Staff Reviewer
May 9th 2024
10742 Comments


Steve Albini Was Proof You Can Change

http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/05/steve-albini-obituary/678328/

nickisnotarapper
May 9th 2024
38 Comments


this one hurts so fucking bad. RIP Steve, and thank you for everything.

ShadowOfTheCitadel
May 9th 2024
429 Comments


What the fuck.

DarkNoctus
May 9th 2024
12210 Comments


this is absolutely devastating, holy shit

an absolutely disproportionate count of my high ratings were produced by this dude

gonna spin some mono tonight

frozencarl
May 9th 2024
1661 Comments


someone on the subway home from work yesterday announced to everyone that "oh my god everybody Steve Albini died!" he looked around at the nonresponse and went "no? no? oh okay :/" then proceeded to call his friend to talk about it. RIP

Frost15
May 9th 2024
3091 Comments


Well, tbh, unless you love music in a very special way, or were a fan of one of the bands he played in, chances are most people wouldn't even recognize his name. It may be sad from our point of view but objetively music from the engineering/mastering/production point of view doesn't attract mainstream public that much. I remember back in the day all music production freaks like me gathered in forums like stevehoffman, audiophilestyle and to a lesser extent head-fi. Just take a look at the R.I.P. thread in the stevehoffman forums, it's already on its 15th page.

Maybe now that his death has placed his name in most music news sites he will be more appreciated, although I don't think Steve would have cared for that anyway, I/some of us could care more actually haha. I just loved that man and the way he did/saw things. Rest in peace. If God finally exists, I hope he gives Steve a studio up there so he can keep doing things the analog, passionate, full dynamic range way for heaven.

bludngorevidal
May 9th 2024
383 Comments


RIP Steve

Wildcardbitchesss
May 9th 2024
12207 Comments


historically based post frost
Completely agree

Senetrix666
May 9th 2024
1585 Comments


how tf is dude incredible not reviewed yet? almost as good as at action park imo

RedRightHand
May 9th 2024
225 Comments


Christ. Responsible for so much good music in my life, rest in power

kildare
May 9th 2024
286 Comments


Haven't jammed Big Black in years after listening it to death as a kid. Time to go through their records again.

XingKing
May 10th 2024
16162 Comments


The man had exquisite taste in production and riffs, with his own music and the ungodly amount of bands I love that he worked with and influenced. I wonder what the heaviest album he ever put to tape was

cylinder
May 10th 2024
2594 Comments


"He is the best damn engineer in the world, I believe. He's very traditional, there's no tricks, there's no fix it later. There's only an extremely high fidelity approach towards capturing a natural performance in a room."
-Steve Von Till of Neurosis

Squiggly
May 11th 2024
1268 Comments


RIP. My heart goes out to his family and friends. This hurt to hear.

wildinferno2010
May 11th 2024
1907 Comments


RIP. I hated hearing this news

I really should have seen Shellac when I had the chance.

Voivod
Staff Reviewer
May 11th 2024
10742 Comments


Financial Times wrote an obituary, Albini conquered the mainstream on his own terms.

http://www.ft.com/content/47a53fc2-9851-4cf5-8d3a-afc495d0735c

ShadowRemains
May 12th 2024
27771 Comments


wait WHAT

fucking hell RIP to a goddamn legend

Winesburgohio
Staff Reviewer
May 13th 2024
3991 Comments


really recommend this, to read in one sitting: https://www.theguardian.com/music/article/2024/may/11/will-oldham-bonnie-prince-billy-on-steve-albini

Comatorium.
May 14th 2024
5060 Comments


Guess no one here cares he was a fan of cp

SomeCallMeTim
May 14th 2024
4159 Comments


just read some bits of the big black tour diary. yikes

ArsMoriendi
May 14th 2024
41087 Comments


Excuse me, wtf??

ArsMoriendi
May 14th 2024
41087 Comments


Jesus reading about the guy from Whitehouse makes my skin crawl and Albini’s withstanding friendship with him is very suspect, especially given the album Albini produced for him

What I don’t get is how this came to light because a convicted troll and terrorist who went to prison for 10 years for causing deaths wrote an article for Medium about it,


Best case scenario: Albini was a mega edgelord who said out of line shit in the 80s to get a reaction and hung out with a piece of shit pedo(Peter Sotos of Whitehouse)

Worst case scenario: Steve was a piece of shit in the same way

I…Jesus I don’t wanna read more about this

Senetrix666
May 15th 2024
1585 Comments


are you guys just now learning that 80s albini was a massive edgelord?

DominionMM1
May 15th 2024
21124 Comments


he was always kind of an edge lord

SomeCallMeTim
May 15th 2024
4159 Comments


I’m not writing some of that off as being edgy

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


I don't think being an edgelord is the same as being a pedo, but okay?

demigod!
May 15th 2024
49620 Comments


I choose to believe he was just tryna be as shocking as possible to whoever he possibly could

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


I truly want to believe that, but why would he hang with Peter Sotos, a convicted pedophile, for years after his conviction and consider him a dear friend?

lols
May 15th 2024
204 Comments


bro you better start 1ing xiu xiu’s entire discog

lols
May 15th 2024
204 Comments


being a friend of a sicko doesn’t by default make you a sicko btw

lols
May 15th 2024
204 Comments


indulging them makes you a dipshit with poor judgement for sure but not a sicko by default

at the end of the day Sotos wasn’t really in love with children as much as the concept of abuse and the power dynamics of such

still a pedophile sure but his paraphilia is much more de Sade than it is catholic priest

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


Fair...so Steve Albini: master talented producer, musical visionary, and a complete dipshit with poor ethical judgement

I guess I could live with that

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 15th 2024
9467 Comments


Just separate the art from the artist bro

BAT
May 15th 2024
1893 Comments


are you guys just now learning that 80s albini was a massive edgelord? [2]

i do think the association is sketch but the albini writings in question[and the big black tour diarys] from what i remember yeaaars ago are mostly centered around culture shock/and confronting&affirming disgust with things that most would avoid, it wasn't him saying looking at stuff is pleasurable but morely as disturbed reaction. i don't agree with it, but out of context it's the same 'defense' as any goregrind using a body/crimescene photo or someone spamming gore on some website purely to shock or disgust others. also add the late 70s-80s UK Industrial scene[of which big black was inspired by] where each act was just a troupe dedicated to out shocking the others, whitehouse is just one of the examples of things being taken way too far. that whole scene was filled with sickos with sketchy records/public cases of exploiting children and all that shit.

eitherway it is a blemish on his legacy and i found about it because an alt-right troll would spam it on any trans-positive post he made on twitter for about 6 years straight, but same breed of troll spreading it on any tribute post to shock his fanbase into discrediting everything he's ever done, also just seems odd to me idk. he has more history of not being a scumbag, with like 40+ years in the entertainment business the only true blemish against hims like an article he wrote as an edgelord in his early 20s for some random fanzine maybe a thousand people read before it showed up on archive.org decades later.

Comatorium.
May 15th 2024
5060 Comments


Imagine posting three straight comments of garbled word salad to defend this shit. He ain’t fuckin write those pixies and nirvana albums. Fuck this chud.

Futures
May 15th 2024
10837 Comments


don't worry he's dead he can't hurt you anymore

lols
May 15th 2024
204 Comments


if it makes you feel better to pass judgement on a dead dude, go for it lol

lols
May 15th 2024
204 Comments


I don’t think he’s caring too much what people think of him rn

JohnnyoftheWell
Staff Reviewer
May 15th 2024
60571 Comments


lol is comatorium still this site's pissiest definition of a user too stupid to argue with

DoofDoof
May 15th 2024
15108 Comments


a period of mourning closely followed by being declared officially cancelled for something or other, a new normal perhaps, happy days

Demon of the Fall
May 15th 2024
33949 Comments


how does one cancel a dead person? By perhaps petitioning to reassign their already passed judgement by the way of a sternly worded letter to god?

Demon of the Fall
May 15th 2024
33949 Comments


I find the incessant yearning for definitive answers with little manoeuvre for grey areas or nuance to be exhausting.

He was most definitely a major provocateur when younger, but it's (at best) 'inconclusive' whether he was a man of questionable character. Maybe he was, maybe not. Continue to enjoy the impact he made in the world of music without dissecting historical evidence in order to unearth any concrete conclusions

gabba
May 15th 2024
1073 Comments


in other words: "Just separate the art from the artist bro" [2]

if it makes anyone feel happier, he did eventually apologize


Comatorium.
May 15th 2024
5060 Comments


Awww Jonny I’m sorry you couldn’t get a real music journalism job so you have to settle for smelling your own farts on sputnik

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 15th 2024
9467 Comments


Bold of you to imply there are any real jobs in music journalism

Snake.
May 15th 2024
25270 Comments


coma really woke up and decided to turn albini into epstein for attention huh

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


Although coma’s approach is very questionable, borderline baity even, I’m kind of glad he brought it up



ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


Shit can’t change if it’s not even talked about, if it’s swept under the rug to protect a legacy

Not that talking about things on Sputnikmusic does anything that significant but even an insignificant open discussion about predatory behavior/glorification in the music industry can give way to a larger more impactful discussion somewhere else maybe

Idk maybe too optimistic a take

JohnnyoftheWell
Staff Reviewer
May 15th 2024
60571 Comments


there's been active critique over albini's statements and politics for years, from both sides of the spectrum with concessions aplenty from the horse's mouth, as has been reflected in the majority of obituaries i've read from sources in and out of the mainstream

but if it takes sput's biggest ratio magnet taking a lazy shot in the hope that he's aiming at the same goalposts as anyone else for the first time this decade for that penny to drop for you, congratulations

(particularly recommended = https://loser-city.com/features/her-she-can-go-quietly-on-steve-albinis-ally-status)

Demon of the Fall
May 15th 2024
33949 Comments


to clarify Ars, I don’t support sweeping anything “under the rug” either. I was merely pointing out the extremities / absolutes that always seem to occur in these situations, whereas there’s a hell of a lot in-between
Having fans blindly defend their idols is problematic and so is the rampant ‘cancel culture’ (ugh, stupid term) where people are (seemingly) digging for dirt and drawing extreme conclusions from

tl;dr - black / white bad. No discussion bad. Rug sweeping bad.

And yeah, it’s not like none of this has cropped up before. This is not revolutionary stuff as far as I’m concerned. I’d just advise anyone new to Albini to at least do a little due diligence before assuming the absolute worst (again, he may not actually be a good man, open to interpretation and really, who tf knows?)

Ryus
May 15th 2024
36993 Comments


RIP to a real one. need to jam some more shellac

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 15th 2024
9467 Comments


Lots of rhcp and bowie fans with reallllll strong opinions on scene-policing all the sudden

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


Wow I just read that article and it was did give me a new perspective on his lyrics, though I suppose on some level it was sort of obvious. “Hated Chinee”, which the article specifically calls out, did always feel a bit on the nose in an ineffective way. I’ve definitely seen him as a satirist in the past, but I suppose his satire is a bit shallow and and maybe ultimately unhelpful

I may need to reexamine some other satire-heavy artists I listen to see if they’re more lazy posturing than actually message driven, ugh guess I’ll start with Zappa

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


“Lots of rhcp and bowie fans with reallllll strong opinions on scene-policing all the sudden”

As a fan of both and still the kind of person who separates the artist from the artist as best he can, while still not hiding their controversies, I don’t see how this comment is helpful at all. I know your stance is to throw entire discographies in the garbage the second someone involved is proven to have done something heinous, but does that really mean your scene-policing ability is somehow more valid than mine?

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 15th 2024
9467 Comments


When I say that Anthony keidis molested teenagers and you respond to that with "good thing I separate art from artist", I see that as "hiding the controversy" and it does in fact impact my ability to take you seriously as a moral authority

Futures
May 15th 2024
10837 Comments


i only listen to bands after hiring a private investigator to dig into their past and giving me the a ok

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


But I don’t deny that Anthony Kiedis was statutory rapist, nor do I give him monetization in any way, and I welcome any discussion about his actions. What exactly am I hiding about Keidis?

There’s a big difference between listening to an artist and enjoying their work and enabling their behavior

IsisScript80
May 15th 2024
1483 Comments


When RIP threads become moral quagmires.

BAT
May 15th 2024
1893 Comments


well when i first saw comas post i was going to bring up the 80s writings of [another highly acclaimed noise adjacent musician], but even in the current century he has shit against him most people seem to just brush off while holding others to a higher standard. just because i find that dude problematic if he died tomorrow i'm not going on his death announcement and convince everyone yo hey this guys actually a complete shithead and if you say rip you're cool with [everything he did and said.] even that dudes a 'legend' who affected people with his music, i'd probably just say RIP and move on with my day.

but yeah when it comes to albini it's shit i already knew and i'm still comfortable saying his impact on independent/noise/hardcore music is undeniable and he's probably the only punk-ajacent producer known for consistent quality rather than just the bands he'd worked with. see how you feel about it in a few years and regardless it's still completely valid to think someone's a PoS by ones own standards. however, i do think there's a time and place for everything and derailing a thread isn't my style. if there's one thing that helped maintain a bit of respect i have for albini it's his attitude towards acknowledging faults without using excuses.

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 15th 2024
9467 Comments


Sorry Ars if your stance is that We Need To Talk About Steve Albini and/or Peter Soto, I have personally seen what that species of conversation looks like to you (i.e. a whole lot of wishy-washy guess-theres-nothing-we-can-do) and I'm not impressed.


CugnoBrasso
May 15th 2024
2705 Comments


Well Kompys you might want to rethink that
https://i.postimg.cc/W1Rbqk2L/skumbagalbini.png

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


I’d ask what you’d propose but it’d likely amount to a complete boycott of everything Albini is associated with (as you’ve done with other artists,) including albums he produced like Surfer Rosa, which mean a hell of lot to people and are by a band with 0 controversies outside of their producer

Which would probably not change anything in the music industry.

I don’t think there’s “nothing we can do”, there’s thorough background checks, criminal punishment, societal awareness, damaging their reputation, opening discussions on how to reduce these cases. But the guy is dead, and not listening to his work I have a hard time believing is saving anyone, same goes for Bowie

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 15th 2024
9467 Comments


Maybe you could start by policing jokes about all-predator music festivals in the discord server you moderate with the same rigor with which you police jokes about the American government

ArsMoriendi
May 15th 2024
41087 Comments


I mean that joke (not even made by me) was at Drifter’s expense since he likes R. Kelly, but I understand why it upset you and I legitimately told the discord to not do it again after you chose to leave

AsleepInTheBack
Staff Reviewer
May 15th 2024
10227 Comments


Of course dude died in the studio lmao, imagine he wouldn't have wanted it any other way

Genuinely a little surreal that he's gone. Rest in peace [2]

AsleepInTheBack
Staff Reviewer
May 15th 2024
10227 Comments


RIP, jamming Steelworker right now in his honor [2]

Lord(e)Po)))ts
May 15th 2024
70242 Comments


Kompy literally everyone there considers you a friend and was sad that you left and would have apologized to you given the opportunity, it’s unfortunate that you wouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt to a support network of people that love and care about you and have been hanging out with you every day for so long and see that that was all meant to be at drifters expense to begin with. Wish you nothing but the best, see ya around.

CugnoBrasso
May 15th 2024
2705 Comments


Ok I have no idea what's going on here but Kompys IS a friend and a sista frum anutha mista and her recs are god tier

Mort.
May 15th 2024
25279 Comments


r.i.p.

Kompys2000
Emeritus
May 15th 2024
9467 Comments


Sorry to derail things, yall didn't deserve that

Rip rip rip

gabba
May 15th 2024
1073 Comments


Albini was a punk, he thought and did stupid things like all of us (punks especially). If you get upset about it, good, this is what punk was formed for: to fight bigotry. Would I say such things? No. Do I agree with those statements? Hell no! Did he say controversial things because he really meant them? Who cares?
We don’t know what happened in his head, but more importantly, we don’t know the context in which they happened. Play thought police if you want to, I’m off to sleep.

BMDrummer
May 15th 2024
15112 Comments


rip to the man who probably got a lot of us to form our own bands and record ourselves, that's his real, present legacy whether you like him or not

still absolutely gutted by this, was so hyped to potentially finally see Shellac this year

Supercoolguy64
May 17th 2024
11793 Comments


theres more important shit to talk about in this thread than the sput discord lol

Comatorium.
May 18th 2024
5060 Comments


I only check Sputnik when I’m taking a shit so I’m probably late with this but

“ The cover of PURE 2 is a guy holding open a toddler’s puny hole so his spuzz can dribble out. The girl is past crying. She is destroyed. […] Like I said, I like that sort of thing.”

Fuck Steve albini and fuck anyone who tries to excuse this shit

BAT
May 18th 2024
1893 Comments


that [...] is missing like 3 paragraphs of context you should really just post the whole article and let people make up their own mind. like i said when i first responded i don't agree with it but it's not a clear-cut glowing endorsement, more of a reflection on the transgressive nature of punk and how it's 'attitude' could be appied to extremes. if you want to go into the rabit hole of the peter sotos case there's several video essays about it on youtube, the main reason it happened was that 'cover' described, the rest is text. if you want a true person to get mad at : sotos only got like 3 months house arrest for singlehandedly creating/distributing that shit, the police found out about it by searching an actual murderers house and finding it in their possession. you can find people openly defending him/calling him an 'inspiration' [usually edgelords] throughout all mediums. i can name a few which is how i found out about whitehouse before the albini connection, but i don't think it's my job to spread that info anytime someone brings up a band that mentioned some dudes writings. coma: your 5's are compromised, and i don't hold that against you but just think your stance is a bit hypocritical/'selective outrage.'

https://archive.org/details/steve-albini-pure [and for context this is probably around 1985, likely right before it turned into a court case known across the nation, albini was probably like 23 and by all accounts should've known better]

and if you're just going to keep posting reasons why albini is an awful person : for anyone not in the know google 'steve albini big black tour diaries,' 'steve albini misogynistic,' and 'steve albini odd future.' we get it dude.

Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


seems like a pretty good guy if you ask me

JohnnyoftheWell
Staff Reviewer
May 18th 2024
60571 Comments


came for "just think your stance is a bit hypocritical/'selective outrage.'"...

Shellac To All Trains
? The cover of PURE 2 is a guy holding open a toddler?s puny hole so his spuzz can dribble out. The girl is past crying. She is destroyed. [?] Like I said, I like that sort of thing.? r-Steve albini 1.0
[...]
Swans Deliquescence
The album that really cements swans as being at the peak of their powers as a live entity. The Knot is 40+ minutes of some of the band?s most mesmerizing music, and the version here is the culmination of developing it for years on the road. The version of The Glowing Man we get here takes every shortcoming the original has, expands its length, and the hulking behemoth that results is the crowing jewel of this era, in my opinion. And there?s there?s still five other tracks that are all quality. 5.0
05.13.24
Swans The Gate
Every sentiment that applies to not here not now applies to The Gate. The versions of songs from TBK are sharpened to a razors edge after some time on the road, and the previews of cuts from The Glowing Man are a fascinating snapshot for other autistic weirdos who consume every second of music swans creates and loves noting the differences and developments that would be made from stage to studio. 4.5
05.13.24
Swans We Rose from Your Bed with the Sun in Our Head
Here, we are properly introduced to the modern version of swans, taking songs that were pretty good in their studio form and morphing them into something massive, something more. The hint of what was to come with the seer tracks made those who were paying attention well aware that something important was coming from swans in the coming years. 4.0
05.13.24
Swans Not Here / Not Now
Some amazing renditions of songs from the seer, some amazing previews of what would become to be kind. Swans can
command sound like few other bands in existence can. If deliquescence didn’t exist, this would be the peak of the band
in a live setting. And yes I’m including the masterpiece that is swans are dead in that. 4.5
05.13.24


...and stayed for probably the funniest self-own on any sput userpage rn

for those interested, he's the reddit thread comatorium is currently using as a crutch while he wobbles under the weight of all that cognitive dissonance:
https://www.reddit.com/r/indieheads/comments/1co1
5eu/steve_albini_reflects_on_a_legendary_career_in/

Relinquished
May 18th 2024
48760 Comments


he’s a legend that’s all that will stay

Ryus
May 18th 2024
36993 Comments


ppl still virtue signalling by 1ing albums on sput? crazy

onionbubs
May 18th 2024
21109 Comments


lmao imagine trying to throw stones as a michael gira fan

ArsMoriendi
May 18th 2024
41087 Comments


"https://archive.org/details/steve-albini-pure"

That was a rough read honestly, even with the context of the entire article

Albini, in 1984?, essentially argues that the punk scene is weak compared to the power of filth like serial killers and pedos...in a praising way. Even the way it disparages those who are disturbed by it with the implication he definitely not. It's like he thought he was a stronger person because he's not repulsed by fucked up crimes. All it really does is make him sound desensitized, sociopathic, and potentially avocational of those crimes.

Like was he just an edgy 23 year old when he wrote those things to shock people, and if so, why did he actually read and promote the zine? I know he has had interview in 2021 talking about his regrets with going to far (The key quote being "A lot of things I said and did from an ignorant position of comfort and privilege are clearly awful and I regret them")

Source for the quote: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/aug/15/the-evolution-of-steve-albini-if-the-dumbest-person-is-on-your-side-youre-on-the-wrong-side

I don't really know how to feel honestly, but I think he's at least matured over time, for whatever that's worth (maybe worth nothing)

Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


changing over time is worth everything

onionbubs
May 18th 2024
21109 Comments


per that article that quote comes from this thread

https://x.com/electricalWSOP/status/1448050174614392832

Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


'potentially avocational of those crimes'

big reach imo ars.



Demon of the Fall
May 18th 2024
33949 Comments


They don’t call him detective ars for nothing

ArsMoriendi
May 18th 2024
41087 Comments


Given his long term friendship with Peter Sotos I think it’s warranted with the qualifier of “potentially”

Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


i do not see why being friends with peter sotos has any bearing on advocating those things, its ok to be friends with people who do or have done horrific things and you can be friends with them without condoning or 'adovcating' their actions


you are not more moral because you push criminals and deviants to the outskirts of society

Demon of the Fall
May 18th 2024
33949 Comments


Yeah, also people that do bad things are sometimes good at only telling the people they know will be compliant / sympathetic or keeping it completely hidden. I mean there have been tons of cases of awful people commuting terrible acts unbeknown to even their closet family members

Association isn’t enough

ArsMoriendi
May 18th 2024
41087 Comments


What about praising (including praising the cover) of a zine that has actual CP as its cover ? Or producing an album that contains interviews of abused people? It’s VERY on the line at least, no?

BAT
May 18th 2024
1893 Comments


My recommendation is meditate on it a bit and come to your own understanding, it's perfectly fine to think he's sketch and I do think it's a giant red flag, but I've come to terms with it and I still think his death is a loss all things considered. He was also weirded out by people thinking he was of importance and usually preferred to be treated like a rando, I'm sure he spent decades of his life playing shows and having people confront him over his writings and he's on record saying he deserves all the scrutiny but ultimately he 'tries his best.'

If you want some background into what type of stuff inspired him back in the 80s I'd rec the throbbing gristle doc 'other, like me' for like a surface level crash course into why noise/industrial music is what we would call edgy by today's standards.

And as for the association thing: henry rollins was buds with Charles manson and even recorded/produced a whole album for him, that rollins only gave out to close friends.

Asdfp277
May 18th 2024
24354 Comments


rest in peace

edit: know nothing about the dude

ArsMoriendi
May 18th 2024
41087 Comments


Oh his death IS a loss artistically, and I’m not giving up listening to things he’s made or anything rash like that. To the dismay of maybe some, I do separate art from artist unless it feels like the art is actually representative of the misdoings

I’ve been “meditating” on this for days now and unfortunately I think knowing this about his does mean it needs to at least be a part of the discussion of his legacy whether his fans like it or not, and if that means saying harsh things about who he was as a person, but also being willing to acknowledge he seems to have grown, then what exactly is the issue?

Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


'What about praising (including praising the cover) of a zine that has actual CP as its cover ? Or producing an album that contains interviews of abused people? It’s VERY on the line at least, no?'

Im confused as to why you have grouped these together as the first is much more repellant than the second, which just seems like the exact sort of thing id expect from transgressive art

the first is difficult to consider morally because praising an item is of a whole different order to creating, condoning or enjoying (i can praise certain aspects of well made fascist art quite easily, especially for its provoking features, aesthetic judgement being a mode where moral judgement is often suspended).

secondly, i do not know if he genuinely praised the work. he was a notorious edglord. reading that piece it just reads as ridiculous punk posturing. i do find it hilarious that of all the horrible shit, someone has underlined kidfucking. mass murder, nazi atrocities and mutilation are not so bad to gaze upon apparently.


but my main point is this. it does not matter if it was on the line or worse. i do not care. i do not see what is to be gained from this. Steve Albini is dead. I cannot ask him about his beliefs or actions. I can no longer make him change his beliefs or behaviour (the second being the crux of morality in my opinion. im much less interested in what people have done and more interested in how they should and how to make them act that way)

His words have already been condemned. he has apologised for them in the past. he has supposedly matured. nonetheless, multiple reddit threads have condemned him and praised his death, naming him a paedophile (which is of course, the worst thing you can be forever and forever and forever, and legitimises the most extreme acts of violence against you and your memory and anyone who ever associated with you or defends. i wonder how long before people who associated with albini are confronted for associating with a known paedophile)

I read that piece again and it just seems like brainless punk posturing from an edgy dipshit who gets excited (not sexually) at the idea hes more punk and transgressive than anyone else. not a paedophile or someone who condones it




BAT
May 18th 2024
1893 Comments


My issue with this thread is just it's abrupt 'Guess no one here cares he was a fan of cp.' There's better ways to discuss it rather than a 'gotcha' troll on the dudes death announcement. Also implies everyone here is a PoS which just seems more like an insult than a meaningful discourse, hence why I gave up and just posted the shit in question.

And I'm coming into this with the perspective of learning about it like 7+ years ago, it's probably a different feeling than learning like a week after he died, give it time some time.

Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


and in terms of his legacy and his fans, who gives a flying fuck about that sort of shit, its the sort of terminally online meaningless verbiage that keeps on being spewed.

'oh so-and-so has apparently done so-and-so, seems like their work legacy will need to be reevaluated in the light of their problematic past'

what does that even mean other than some annoying cunt is now going to bring up the bad thing that person did every time someone goes 'oh they were cool'

Asdfp277
May 18th 2024
24354 Comments


just reading superficially, is the issue the fact that we can't know what was going on in albini's mind, and albini couldn't know what was going on in sotos' mind?

ArsMoriendi
May 18th 2024
41087 Comments


Comatorium’s approach was bad faith as hell, yeah

“what does that even mean other than some annoying cunt is now going to bring up the bad thing that person did every time someone goes 'oh they were cool'“

A lot of time we deify talented people and finding out some weren’t as good as we thought is very grounding and realistic. IE: John Lennon is often treated like peace profit by boomers, but in reality he was struggling with being an abuser and shitty father and overcompensated with pushing peace and love due to his own guilt about this (from an 1980 interview with Playboy of all places where he straight up said this, if you want me to dig it up.) Does that NOT make you want to reevaluate his legacy? It gives it an entirely new context

Like most people think “Jordan, Minnesota” is an anti-pedo song, but given this context, it could just be a shock value transgression song in a similar vein to why he enjoyed reading Pure.

I’m not trying to be a downer, I was honestly shocked by Comatorium’s troll claim and dedicated to figure it out for myself, and my conclusion is that it’s relevant to Albini’s history idk what else to say here


Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


'A lot of time we deify talented people and finding out some weren’t as good as we thought is very grounding and realistic. IE: John Lennon is often treated like peace profit by boomers, but in reality he was struggling with being an abuser and shitty father and overcompensated with pushing peace and love due to his own guilt about this (from an 1980 interview with Playboy of all places where he straight up said this, if you want me to dig it up.) Does that NOT make you want to reevaluate his legacy? It gives it an entirely new context'



ok well this just isnt an issue for me cos i dont idolise anyone (i idolise plenty of artworks but certainly not people). so i guess i dont care or see why it matters re discussions of legacy because its not something i interact with anyway

Mort.
May 18th 2024
25279 Comments


or sorry to be more accurate, i try very hard not to idolise anyone and have some real issues with it and the reverse.





kkarron
May 19th 2024
1396 Comments


>
and in terms of his legacy and his fans, who gives a flying fuck about that sort of shit, its the sort of terminally online meaningless verbiage that keeps on being spewed.

This is the most important thing from this thread.

Comatorium.
May 19th 2024
5060 Comments


The amount of time y’all take typing out this shit defending a direct quote in any context is kinda hilarious. But not as funny as the time Jonny takes to try to get a rise out of me, it makes me happy I have a life offline. Go copy and paste some more sound offs. How many tabs do you need open to respond to a comment? What a self righteous twat lmao

BAT
May 19th 2024
1893 Comments


since johnny already spoiled it here's a doozy for ya, this is one of several examples but in the same category of 'shit edgy people people said in the 1980s.' interpret it how you want, can contrast the two but neither really make the other look less fucked up. i just don't see the value in shaming others for enjoying either, if that's your prerogative you should at least be consistent.

https://www.reddit.com/r/swans/comments/12lcc5u/disturbing_gira_interview_from_1987/

and adding context isn't a straight up defense, more of a comprehension thing. if someone sees like a tweet/post that makes them go 'wtf where's that coming from' naturally they'll want to find out why/what others have said about it. court/legal systems also exist for a reason. regardless, i do think it's fucked up at the end of the day but ehhh.

someone
Contributing Reviewer
May 19th 2024
6667 Comments


One lil piece of thought regarding folks upset at Albini's edgelord statements: at the time he was also in bands literally named Rapeman and Big Black (what that means you'll just have to figure out on your own).
Think of it closer to when Nick Cave made songs about how much he enjoys raping and murdering people.

JohnnyoftheWell
Staff Reviewer
May 19th 2024
60571 Comments


"more of a comprehension thing."

no need to drop that glass ceiling right on the poor cunt's head lmfao

Gyromania
May 19th 2024
37138 Comments


Did I miss another witch hunt? What was the moral crusade this time?

someone
Contributing Reviewer
May 19th 2024
6667 Comments


Tldr, he had some interviews in his provocateur era when he was trying to get himself look as unlikeable as possible that people now are looking back to as some incriminating evidence or sth.

bighubbabuddha
May 19th 2024
583 Comments


let the man rest in peace, nobody is perfect

DoofDoof
May 19th 2024
15108 Comments


Punks eh? Wish punks would just BEHAVE THEMSELVES

VlacDrac
May 19th 2024
2495 Comments


What the hell is going on in this thread?

Asdfp277
May 19th 2024
24354 Comments


do y'all remember having an edgelord era? what was y'all's edgelord era like?

gabba
May 19th 2024
1073 Comments


@VlacDrac Nothing special, just goofin’ around and trying to convince some fellow kids not to take everything so seriously.
@Asdfp277 Once I refused to eat an ice cream my grandma offered me.

Asdfp277
May 19th 2024
24354 Comments


smh

BAT
May 19th 2024
1893 Comments


i'd also like to point out [at the time] albini was a journalism major fresh out of college trying to establish a name for himself, the 70s-80s are rife with creators saying shocking shit purely to draw attention to themselves because it was easier to gain infamy, being a technical writer on newspapers/magazines doesn't really stick out. even something like movie critics have more established names than anyone writing about stocks/a local fundraiser/etc. To put it in perspective: steven king was a column writer for years than became a household name the moment he put our a book about an abused girl killing her school. and to follow up ars 'is it an anti-song or just an edgy transgressive piece,' i'd lean towards the latter as like i said big blacks main inspiration was the mid-late 70s industrial scene. if you read whats printed on any of the big black album sleeves/liner notes you'll see a similar thread of 'well that's pretty fucked up why is that there?.' it's to get a reaction.

as for personal edgelord eras: i came of age in the mids 2000s, all my local friends were into gore movies/death metal/newgrounds/and 4chan lol. as far as shit talking goes i'm a counter strike veteran. i'm glad i chilled out a lot and probably would be completely annoyed with teenaged self.

Asdfp277
May 19th 2024
24354 Comments


in their idubbbz era

SomeCallMeTim
May 20th 2024
4159 Comments


On another note they wasted zero time adding his music back to streaming services

bellovddd
May 20th 2024
6047 Comments


DAMN this thread is something. lmao. some peeps should really just stick to music talk.

someone
Contributing Reviewer
May 20th 2024
6667 Comments


"do y'all remember having an edgelord era? what was y'all's edgelord era like?"

I was insufferable. My edgelord era came around Trumptroll times, so I fell down a right wing pipeline. Even donated money to some of the thinkpiece scammers

BaselineOOO
May 20th 2024
2555 Comments


Isn't this the guy who n-worded Tyler, The Creator? It's funny how 99% of people are racists in situations like these, and the 1% you like are "edgelords".

gabba
May 20th 2024
1073 Comments


People may argue that the difference lies in whether they “mean it” or not. And then we’re down the rabbit hole. Again.

Mort.
May 20th 2024
25279 Comments


'Isn't this the guy who n-worded Tyler, The Creator? It's funny how 99% of people are racists in situations like these, and the 1% you like are "edgelords".'

hell yeah brother, thats obvs whats going on here

Asdfp277
May 20th 2024
24354 Comments


@someone: dang, my condolences lmao. i happened to dodge right wing edge, lucky me

Asdfp277
May 20th 2024
24354 Comments


@baseline: wasn't tyler at the time also using slurs he couldn't reclaim?

edit: that sentence sounds very online lmao

looking at the first link on google, this is the quote:


Writing on the website for his Electrical Audio studio, he said: “I spent about 40 minutes with these little pricks at the end of May and I haven’t wanted to strangle anybody that much in a real long time. My band shared a shuttle with them in Barcelona. They piled onto the shuttle late, ‘niggering’ everything in sight, ‘motherfucking’ the driver, boasting into the air unbidden about getting their dicks sucked and calling everyone in the area a faggot. A female passenger tried to engage one of them in conversation, but he just stared at her with a dead-to-me stare while his seatmate flipped double birds in her face”.

He continued: “The whole trip they complained about not being at a McDonalds and repeatedly shouted for the ‘motherfucker’ to pull over so they could ‘get some fucking McDonalds nigger’. Interspersed with the McDonalds requests were shouted boasts about how often they masturbated and ‘fucked bitches, nigger’ and ‘got paid like a motherfucker fifty grand like a motherfucker’. They continued complaining that the trip was taking too long and insisted they be fed immediately all the way to the airport, where their minder presumably fed them”.

Finally, he said: “If the whole thing is a put-on, a bit of Vincent Gallo life-as-theater for the benefit of whoever happens to be sitting next to them, that’s no excuse. It’s being an asshole about being an asshole”.


basically, odd future was also in their edgelord era. the edge was not nearly as edgy, just mostly annoying + slurs


BaselineOOO
May 20th 2024
2555 Comments


ah oki, my bad < 3

Asdfp277
May 20th 2024
24354 Comments


two wrongs DO make a right !

ArsMoriendi
May 20th 2024
41087 Comments


“If the whole thing is a put-on, a bit of Vincent Gallo life-as-theater for the benefit of whoever happens to be sitting next to them, that’s no excuse. It’s being an asshole about being an asshole”

I feel like there’s a certainly irony in Albini saying this???

BAT
May 20th 2024
1893 Comments


as an odd future fan during the late 2000s/2010s : they openly travel vlogged themselves doing the like lol, hell tyler was banned from the uk and austrilia over goblin for most of the mid 2010s. in odd futures defense they were a buncha loudmouth teenage skaters(in other words, punks) that got famous overnight on their brand of shock tactics, someone in their late 40s stuck on a bus with a bunch of loud youngens is understandably going to be annoyed. there's plenty of other cases where slurs are brough up among albini career, once again : ehh. he's documented calling his optics awful/being culturally unaware to how that would play out

Asdfp277
May 20th 2024
24354 Comments


@ars: it is kind of ironic, but again, he's not the same person he was before. none of us are. maybe today he would find his young self annoying too

Mort.
May 20th 2024
25279 Comments


yeah doesnt surprise me odd future are obnoxious

Mort.
May 20th 2024
25279 Comments


'If the whole thing is a put-on, a bit of Vincent Gallo life-as-theater for the benefit of whoever happens to be sitting next to them, that’s no excuse. It’s being an asshole about being an asshole'

I feel like there’s a certainly irony in Albini saying this???'

you seem to be confusing saying edgy dipshit things with purposefully antagonising a shuttle full of other people



gabba
May 20th 2024
1073 Comments


“you seem to be confusing saying edgy dipshit things with purposefully antagonising a shuttle full of other people”
Well, the line between those two is often blurred, isn’t it?



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