The Finnish school shootings seem to have re-ignited speculation that extreme music is the cause of such anti-social behaviour. A member of the band mentioned by the man who committed the crime has spoken out against this, and I thought that it was a very well written statement and would be of interest to us over at Sputnik.
This is taken from: http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=30511
Put the source at the bottom, and leave that top stuff off.
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no worries. Edited.
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I think it's ridiculous how often this has happened, going as far back as Twisted Sister and Ozzy back in the 70s for "corrupting our youth", and of COURSE Marilyn Manson gets blamed ALL the time too. I mean, don't these people ever stop and think "Well, maybe it WASN'T the music"?
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I find the alleged correlation between music and anti-social (or murderous) behaviour absolutely false. So millions of people listen to metal. When one snaps and does something like this, how can it suddenly form a significant link between the two?
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I don't think that music has much effect on people's actions. Language, yeah, actions not so much. But then again I can't really relate with someone who is willing to go shoot up a group of people so who knows. This just makes me think about how rediculous it is that some bands make careers out of singing about things as obscene as murder. I believe in freedom of speech and all, but if you dont have anything constructive or even relevant to say, especially when you're in the public eye, then shut the hell up.
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I agree 100%.
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this is a very interesting news story and sadly a sign of how much ignorance people have towards anything that's different.
unfortunately, scapegoating like this - where even the most innocent of subjects are blamed for all of society's ills - will continue as long we do.
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I want to know why rap/hip hop hasnt been attacked as much as metal. When some kid goes crazy and shoots up his school, its a big deal if its found out that he listens to some sort of metal, but if some gang bangers shoot up some kids on the street, there isnt an uprising against rap. I know they have been blamed in the past but it just doesnt seem like its portrayed as the cause quite as much as metal is in similar situations. In all actuality, I dont think any music should be blamed for something someone does. I just think that it should, at least, be equal. If youre going to bash one musical genre for something, then you should consider all of the negative music in existence. I really dont like saying this because people make their own decisions and its not anyone else's fault for other's actions. I fuckin hate stupid people who point fingers. Whatever, it'll never change. Pardon my rant, ive had a "couple" drinks
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[quote=Cornelius von Jackhelln]"Knowing the boundary between fiction and reality was always a prerequisite for dealing with dark matters in music, literature, film and video games. It seems obvious that the Tuusula murderer was ignorant about this boundary."[/quote]
This. FUCKING THIS!
It's so easy to blame music as a negative influence in people's lives. Yes, it can be. During some unstable times in my life depressing music has spoken out to me and left me confused about life. It has left me feeling a thin existence I did not quite know how to handle, and has come to represent some of the lowest times in my life.
But I came to learn it's all theatrics. It's illusion, it is art. Sure, it can be an amazingly vivid hyperreality, and to some misguided people it is a nail in the coffin for their retarded logic to go out and roll some heads. However, so many other factors lend themselves to how people form such a mentality. If the guy was completely stable through his upbringing and experiences in life he wouldn't be affected just by music to go kill people (it might not have affected him at all he might just have liked listening to it). He would be armed with the capability to look at several conflicting sources in life vying for attention and sort out a compromise of how he should approach and act as we all do.
Negative expression is best channeled into something positive, music is a worthwhile practice both to be listened to and created. Anyone who feels metal is corrupting an entire generation is not looking at the big picture.
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If you blame metal for some sociopath mass murdering his colleagues (and teacher) it just highlights how much people around him let him down, which, in turn, defeats its own argument.
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How did that kid get that gun?
For me thats the real prob, (explored in Bowling For Colombine), that's what the authorities should be looking into. Extreme Music and Violent video games are just scapegoats.
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This kind of stuff always pisses me off but if I go into detail I won't be saying anything new.This Message Edited On 11.10.07
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I read about this days ago and thought that they would try to pin metal as its blame. Bullshit.
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sad stuff, but music is just an excuse for a mental problem that goes far beyond everything else.
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It's really easy to blame a form of media for teen violence. With Columbine, it was video games. With this, it's extreme metal (I'm guessing this is a black metal band). People will always look in the wrong places for the causal factor because they want a scapegoat. In the end the kid was probably just a desperate loner who was pissed off at society for rejecting him.
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I don't think that music has much effect on people's actions. Language, yeah, actions not so much. But then again I can't really relate with someone who is willing to go shoot up a group of people so who knows. This just makes me think about how rediculous it is that some bands make careers out of singing about things as obscene as murder. I believe in freedom of speech and all, but if you dont have anything constructive or even relevant to say, especially when you're in the public eye, then shut the hell up.
you might as well be saying that horror movies and the like should be frowned upon as well. It's an extreme form of entertainment, no one with the ability to reason should take Cannibal Corpse's lyrics seriously, just like no one with the ability to reason should take movies like Cannibal Holocaust seriously.
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These things happen because of mental illness. You cannot hold music responsible, peoples misguided interpretations of the music are a result of psycosis or paranoia. It's like the arguement that ending size zero in publications will cease anorexia, that doesn't happen because people want to be like that from seeing it. They want to be like that because of how they feel inside.
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This is action newscaster Clyde Chunkhead reporting live! Today, some psychotic teen shot up his school and much to our shock and dismay, he listens to heavy metal!
We've already interroga-I mean contacted several bands that were found in the CD collection of this poor youth led astray. Despite the fact that we're prowling around their houses, leaving phone messages into the double digits, and getting straight to the point and asking why they persuaded this young man to kill, they won't talk to us. They obviously have something to hide!
In other news, two kids robbed a convenience store and sucker punched the clerk. Police currently have the youths' copy of Guitar Hero in custody for questioning.
Later, we'll tell you how police bravely raided a man's home in order to detain his comic book collection, as we believe it to be responsible for his cat clawing him when he tried to give it a bath.
But first, our panel of experts tries to figure out why nobody trusts news media anymore.
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Once again, mainstream society blames metal when it is really mainstream society's fault for rejecting the kid. Admittedly, someone who is rejected may turn to misanthropic music, but that is only because he has been rejected and that's how he channels his anger. If anything, metal probably prevented him from busting a spring a long time ago.
Parents and teachers are the ones who should be blamed for not recognizing or dealing with this kid's obvious problems. Using metal as a scapegoat is just shameful.
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I didn't even hear about this.. jesus. That's fuckin terrible.
This is probably a bad time to bring this up... but has anyone else noticed how good Scandanavian's are at speaking English?
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Everyone speaks English.
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How did that kid get that gun?
For me thats the real prob, (explored in Bowling For Colombine), that's what the authorities should be looking into. Extreme Music and Violent video games are just scapegoats.
Saying that its the guns fault is completely stupid too. I mean millions of people own guns and just hunt, use them for target practice, and some have it for safety and never use it.
Not to mention that a kid so f'ed up mentally would use any means necessary to get a gun to commit the heinous crime.
And i don't even want to go to the implications of removing guns from society and the resulting surge in the black market.
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I wonder why Elton John never gets blamed when old guys go on shooting sprees.
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WHAT ABOUT LINKIN PARK, THEY ARE SO METAL
Society blames EXTREME metal because society does not like EXTREME metal
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This just makes me think about how rediculous it is that some bands make careers out of singing about things as obscene as murder. I believe in freedom of speech and all, but if you dont have anything constructive or even relevant to say, especially when you're in the public eye, then shut the hell up
what makes lyrics about love and happy stuff more relevant than those about death and war and all those topics? for bands that are obsessed by gore and all that stuff that's just their thing. we make the choice as listeners to pick up their album, and those of us ignorant enough to actually do something like this based on some (tongue in cheek) gore lyrics are mentally unstable. it's not the fault of the bands, who are simply making the music they love.
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I wonder why Elton John never gets blamed when old guys go on shooting sprees.
Probably because Elton John doesn't write songs about eating the rotting carcass of his enemy or whatev. But still, I stand by my point earlier that music and going off on a shooting spree are not linked by any means. I'd expand now but it's all been covered already by everyone else, etc.
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Wierd kids who hate themselves are likely to listen to misanthropic extreme metal because they need an outlet. Wierd kids who hate themselves are the ones who shoot up their schools. If extreme metal didn't exist, they would find some other outlet for their hatred. So maybe there is a slight correlation between kids who go on school shootings and liking extreme metal, but the point is: if extreme metal is banned or whatever, the shootings will still occur.
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you shouldn't put blamed on here. He wasn't exactly blamed it seems like, he was asked if he had any connection with it, but with or without metal, people will kill people.
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Correlation would suggest that it appears a significant enough amount of times to be deemed as a pattern with regards to the results/study as a whole. As this is no study, nor are there any results, we basically have to regard the entire metal listening community.
Are they all brooding social rejects very much capable of murder? I'll hazard a guess and say no, they aren't.
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Probably because Elton John doesn't write songs about eating the rotting carcass of his enemy or whatev.
he sings about killing your parents in the street.
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[quote= ""]I want to know why rap/hip hop hasnt been attacked as much as metal. When some kid goes crazy and shoots up his school, its a big deal if its found out that he listens to some sort of metal, but if some gang bangers shoot up some kids on the street, there isnt an uprising against rap. I know they have been blamed in the past but it just doesnt seem like its portrayed as the cause quite as much as metal is in similar situations. In all actuality, I dont think any music should be blamed for something someone does. I just think that it should, at least, be equal. If youre going to bash one musical genre for something, then you should consider all of the negative music in existence. I really dont like saying this because people make their own decisions and its not anyone else's fault for other's actions. I ****in hate stupid people who point fingers. Whatever, it'll never change. Pardon my rant, ive had a "couple" drinks[/quote]
ever heard of someone called eminem? negative connotations are attached to hip hop all the time.
According to my dad, i smoke weed because i listen to the beatles. its the same mentality that is being applied everywhere nowadays.
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i agree with what altmer said
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Finland was overdue for a multiple-killing.
Rock on.This Message Edited On 11.10.07
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I believe Chris Rock said it best.
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CRAZY.
fuck the movies, fuck the records. CRAY-ZEE.This Message Edited On 11.11.07This Message Edited On 11.11.07
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Are they all brooding social rejects very much capable of murder? I'll hazard a guess and say no, they aren't. Truth.
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this is just a way to pass off the blame from those that are really to blame (the parents, friends, and peers of the killer) to something that has little to no connection (music).
i lol'd when i read the "Viking battle" part haha
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and you know what's REALLY funny? when the Virginia Tech shootings occurred, of coarse the media was eager to discover that the shooter listened to extreme metal, but guess what he mostly listened to? that's right, COLLECTIVE SOUL. haha
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Well said once again Steerpike!
No comment to such ignorant claims of media influence.
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Umm, I read that he worshed Hitler and thought that he was the chosen one to eliminate not true beleivers. So I don't think music would have had that much of an impact. But it may or may not have reinforced what he was thinking. Considering the band wrote about WW1&2 this might be true.
I hope it isnt though.
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I've listened to music with offensive and/or violent lyrics and messages. I've never done anything violent, nor do I even have a police record. It takes some psychotic do something like this, someone fucked up to begin with. Metal had nothing to do with this sad, sad event.
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Well said once again Steerpike!
At least someone appreciates my biting satire.
I've listened to music with offensive and/or violent lyrics and messages. I've never done anything violent, nor do I even have a police record.
In fact, I've actually created a heavy metal superhero in this one game, and I created another hero that has the English-translated name of the band they're putting on the hot seat.
Combine that with the fact that I've actually fantasized about having sex to the music of Edguy, and I may have court-admissable proof that metal made me not kill! Get my attourney on the line, and book me a flight to Finland. To the Pwn-mobile!
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NERD!
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masscows: I think the difference is that music has a much greater impact on people than movies and tv do. Some people use music to cope with life and practically dedicate their social lives to it. Whereas in movies, usually you will see movie once, forget about it, and never see it again. They just dont have the same impact on people. Also, its just really hard for everyday people to emotionally and mentally relate to people who are in the state of mind to kill a bunch of people. I don't think it is so much a person's inabilty to reason as it is their skewed perception of life, themselves, and the world around them.
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ever heard of someone called eminem? negative connotations are attached to hip hop all the time.
According to my dad, i smoke weed because i listen to the beatles. its the same mentality that is being applied everywhere nowadays.
Eminem? No, who's that???
Of course hip hop is looked upon as negative, for the most part it is. I said they have been blamed in the past. Its just that metal has this whole anti-religious stigma(ta), which, to the general public, gives it an even more negative appearance... I think I may have just answered my question, some what. OH DAG!
Also, pots got nothin' on murder.This Message Edited On 11.11.07This Message Edited On 11.11.07
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[quote=AmericnZero02]I think the difference is that music has a much greater impact on people than movies and tv do. Some people use music to cope with life and practically dedicate their social lives to it. Whereas in movies, usually you will see movie once, forget about it, and never see it again. They just dont have the same impact on people.[/size]
Movies are just as important in the lives of many as music is.
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Whereas in movies, usually you will see movie once, forget about it, and never see it again. They just dont have the same impact on people.
Bullshit. If people watch a movie once and forget about it, why do you think the DVD market is so huge? These days, that's where films make most of their money.
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People are attracted to creative art in different ways. Some people are obcessed with movies, others with books, or music or painting.
Personally, music and books grab me in ways other branches of the arts can not.
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It's really easy to blame a form of media for teen violence. With Columbine, it was video games with Columbine i believe they also blamed Marilyn Manson and South Park.
Ya I hate scapgoaters like this. They target the WHOLE metal genre. But there is such a thing as Christian metal, and metal bands that sing about other things besides violence (Killswitch Engage for example).
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But there is such a thing as Christian metal, and metal bands that sing about other things besides violence (Killswitch Engage for example).
Logic doesn't work on these mooks. If you told them that the Australian power metal band Black Majesty wrote a song about WWII, they would tell Wal-Mart to ban the CDs (which they don't even carry anyway) and then they'd count themselves lucky the Columbine kids never got their hands on the album.
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Steerpike: I don't think profit is a fair measure of effect on an audience. Spiderman 3 made millions of dollars and it was a sh***y movie.
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Sturmgeist's Cornelius von Jackhelln is a nazi
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Lame -- music doesn't cause stupid people to act stupid, it just happens.
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^Well put. End of discussion.
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Steerpike: I don't think profit is a fair measure of effect on an audience. Spiderman 3 made millions of dollars and it was a sh***y movie.
Completely irrelevant to my point.
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"Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny."
Obviously music is not solely to blame, but to say it's not an influencing factor is to misunderstand human nature.
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Obviously music is not solely to blame, but to say it's not an influencing factor is to misunderstand human nature.
It's not like music "turns people into murderers". Usually people (idiots) who take metal lyrics seriously feel drawn to this music because it reflects part of their personality or because a group of peers (y'know the BAD kind) listens to it. If you look at the "biographies" (for lack of a better word) of these people, it's never the music that's first. It's either some kind of childhood trauma, peers, teachers, etc. (Psychotically) violent people often listen to "violent" music as a kind of self-approval/ego-boost. Kinda like "yeah, this guy thinks like me", y'know? And if it isn't metal, it's something else.
Also it's a nice mechanism for parents, teachers and other authority figures for cleaning their conscience and having to worry about having failed as an authority and as a person.
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This is so dumb I can't even begin to say anything about it...
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Just because only sick freaks like metal doesn't mean metal turned them into sick freaks.
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Steerpike: I think this is just a difference of opinion here. Lets just give it a rest alright?
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