lmfao

what.

Ugh... people are weird sometime, sad to hear it.

inc ignorant comments

Religion is so fucking ass backwards.

so when's the muslim women album due?

i find it so strange that there are some religious leaders in the islamic world that try to deny the
rich and wonderful arts heritage of not only the islamic faith but of many of the world's largest and
oldest muslim nations. how do these people explain the first 700 years of muslim culture?

though i'm agnostic, it says muslim on my pass and everytime i read ANYTHING from the sharia i have to facepalm, even my muslim parents sigh whenever some islamic foundations take the sharia way too seriously....my uncle i a very religious and has to go on missionary assignments to backward villages and teach them that the islam isn't to be taken as strict as some idiots make them believe. Once he had to argue with some guy that television isnt the work of devils -.-

but yeah LOL religion...at least the sharia doesnt say the head of muslims should wear golden gown and sit on a crimson thone...

Can't wait for the album!

as long as she doesn't sing my supper cold

FIRST

religulous was such a good movie.

they'll eventually evolve like the rest of the western world

good discussion and debate will turn eventually into lowly trolling and one-liners


on another note I agree with redsky

religion and all their rules are so dumb.

"Not while they hold on to that religion they won't."

so are you insinuating that all muslim people won't evolve as long as they remain islamic?

no he's saying that you can't technologically and culturally advance when you're own dogma is theocratic law and is against such things.

so can they partake in some death metal growls ? looking back at people saying it isnt singing makes it all sound legal to me

good discussion and debate will turn eventually into lowly trolling and one-liners

not sure why this was even posted on sputnik, most of the comments so far have been retarded and
ignorant and it'll probably only get worse

^ so true, sputnik is NOT a site to have intelligent religious debates on.

just hoping this doesn't turn into an islam bashing thread

yeah because you obviously can't evolve if you follow a religion right

don't really see anything wrong with criticizing religion, the article was posted because it was music news. if religious scholars are discussing women's right to sing, they deserve to be criticized.

What people fail to recognize is that the idea of fundamental human rights is a relatively new idea in history. Take that as you will, but what I mean to say is that lately(within the past few hundred years) there has been a huge paradigm shift in the masses. We now are no longer struggling simply for survival, but are rather struggling to find the best state of existence. I try to avoid sounding pretentious like this, but it's really something I believe is true. I really hope the next few hundred years can bring about more change for the better for humanity as a species. After all, we are all but single existences. We will live our lives and die, but life will go on.

This is big news.

Muslim women have less rights than dogs.

@Enotron, you belong on this site but not on this thread

i can read josh d., just seems like that's what you're all implying

don't really see anything wrong with criticizing religion, the article was posted because it was music news. if religious scholars are discussing women's right to sing, they deserve to be criticized.

well yeah

@Enotron, you belong on this site but not on this thread

"That's not really up for debate, that's a fact. Sharia law, which is instilled in their theocracies, is extremely oppressive. That's why I said they won't evolve under it. This isn't difficult, I promise".

their laws will change over time, as has all cultures, we just have to wait

was referring to andcas, eno

Thats not even the worst of the laws that need to be changed.

their culture is stuck in the 1800s

there is absolutely no rights for women in that Country

Disgusting as it may be, my dear funny friend, no amount of patronizing western criticism will change it. It's kind of a matter of time. With any luck, there will be reform within their own groups, and(hopefully without bloodshed) women in the islamic world will one day have equal rights.

there are dogmatic hardliners in every religion and summing up over a billion people based on the ideas of a few of them isn't an apt or smart thing to do. if you look at a majority of the places where this minority is in power, their general attitude has more to do with perennial poverty, deeply entrenched tribal identities, and a history of negative interaction with western nations. I'm not saying that i condone fundamentalist stances in any faith (or even the same intolerance from those without any religion or faith) but at times what drives attitudes like the one seen here go beyond just the subscribed religious ideals that are distorted to fit said politics.

nothing I disagree with in redsky's post

"So because they don't like criticism, we shouldn't do it? No thanks, I'll speak freely"

their not saying you shouldn't, their saying it won't change anything

ilu redkitteh. Spot on.

Thats the sad thing Win.

Whats normal for them seems so insanely weird for us. and vice-a-versa for them. It sucks, because there really is nothing that we can do.

Noone is wrong as far as I'm concerned. You're all bringing up pretty valid points.

Whats normal for them seems so insanely weird for us. and vice-a-versa for them.

Which is why those who propogate the law will fight tooth and nail to prevent any form of evolution, we're pretty much the epitome of sin to them.

@Red

Honestly with your posts I was thinking you were a form of Catholicism. But that's a neat view that you have considering you're Athiest. Clearly you're pretty educated..Which I guess I knew as well. hahaha.

@Dogget

I know it's fucking ridiculous. And sad really.

I love how we all have to "be tolerant" of a faith that treats women as though they are of no more worth than being fuckdolls. Anytime religion is brought up, everyone has to get all sensitive and shit, and that why things don't change. Everyone is so scared of actually bringing up what they really think about religion.

atheism is as much of a religion as any other.

if i brought up what i think about religion you'd all call me a sheep

Religion used to be a means by which to advocate a certain morality that the world was lacking in the past. It has now become one of the most restrictive and divisive (by nature, not always directly via religious dogma) establishments in existence. I just can't stand the things people use religion(or a lack thereof) as justification for.

Islam, the new christianity.

saying that is like saying christianity is evil solely because of the westboro baptist church. it's mainly small groups of extremists in every religion.

^@win

Is it not the explicit belief that there is no god, which while there is no proof either way, is much the same as believing there is one?

Because a vast majority of people treat religion as a security blanket. It's their safety zone, if you go into peoples safety zone, they get more and more ridiculous at trying to justify their thinking. It's all par for the course you can't really fight it.

and you guys should seriously stop trying to pick fights with Josh, He's contributed a whole other perspective on this entire debate without him there would be zero discussion. And saying he's using elementary words? Pretty sure you're only saying that because you need to use a dictionary to understand them. Grow up and open your mind.

@pink: personally i'm fascinated by religion. especially how it evolves and mutates over time. if you strip away all of the bullshit that gets written in to appease the religious and political themes the writer is trying to express, it offers a great deal of historical insight into the mindset and socioeconomic themes that concerned ancient peoples.

@Dogget No, atheism is a lack of belief in God. People who call themselves "agnostics" are really just atheists with no balls. And there could never be proof in the way of there being no God. It's impossible to prove the non-existence of something. Sure, we don't KNOW if there is an 8 dick monster, but chances are that there isn't.

Speaking of Atheism, I had a nightmare that Atheist released their new album. I checked Sputnik and about 200 people rated it a 2. I jumped out of bed sweating like crazy i almost pissed my bed

atheism has basically become a religion

Decept, I said by nature because it now exists as a means by which to separate people, or to put them on different grounds. I meant nothing about the acts certain religious extremists take, but rather that people (for whatever reason, be it religious, racial, cultural) still have tendencies to think that being different is relevant in superiority or inferiority. Sure, we aren't created(or spontaneously spat out, whichever you prefer) equal, but that doesn't mean any other person is any less human because of it. Difference shouldn't make a difference.

no it hasnt

@lakes

I agree Red. I 150% agree. Religion used to be good. There is a heart and soul to religion, there is good that can come out of it (obviously) but over the years there has been so much sludge, and so much bull shit added to it, it's been twisted and totally fucking destroyed..it's bastardization of history.

i just hate when atheists treat people who follow a religion as a lesser human being because they don't share their (lack of)beliefs

^ Again, atheism isn't a belief.

I think in the day, religion was a great way of creating meaning for ourselves and the world around us. It helped us feel safe, like we had a purpose, like we knew things. It helped our more simple ancestors build a moral basis. But it is irrelevant in our modern society.

its a lack of a belief, yeah whatever

@Deceptioneer Yep, basically. It also happens to nullify your statement.

I think maybe there's a spectrum of atheism, because some people certainly do have a belief system structured around it's core idea

it's always going to come across that way, regardless.

Agreed, decept. But more broadly I can't stand it when people treat others as lesser human beings for ANY reason. Just because someone is darker skinned/fatter/dumber/smarter/religious/DIFFERENT doesn't mean they're any LESS human than anyone else. I do, however, find myself very easily disgusted with ignorance.

True, true.

ignorance leads to fear, which leads to hostility, which leads to conflict, which leads to the dark side

Well in a sense it's a certainty about a lack of higher power @Josh.
Your description more closely matches atheist-agnosticism

@Dogget Well, if you consider only "believing" things that have been proven a belief system, then I guess so. I mean, that's what rationalism is. I don't consider those "beliefs" though if they've been proven to be facts. Faith is about believing things without evidence.

i can't look at your avatar without mimicing the frog idnuf

Ignorance is the direct result of being close minded.

If you don't learn, Then you stay in the same simple minded and totally closed off mind set, set in your ways. Which would bring you back on topic. The great thing about Canada/The States is we embrace diversity. We grow. Where as other places in question see others as wrong, they are the ones who are right therefore they don't evolve, there isn't enough Growth.

@Idnuf
Which is why I said what I said, a large proportion of atheists believe there is no deity.

Idealism vs. Realism

As someone that went to a religious high-school and has always considered himself a "non-believer" all i have to say is that the idea of atheism being seen as a religion subscription, while in theory is somewhat laughable, is rather comforting because having seen the drive that evangelical christians have to fit the US government in their own little bubble and the funds and influence they have to do it, being in a rising statistic that is demanding that it be heard and share that same influence only seems right. sure some people get carried away with it all and try to make political statements that overreach what should be ground rules of common sense, but at least we're being heard. i know people that have a holier than thou attitude about not having religion in their lives and i think that kind of smug outlook is fruitless and only causes a deeper divide. I would love that if one day mankind would evolve to the point where they didnt find the need to have to legislate matters of taste, so then we could actually work on real issues.

The first step to learning, after all, is realizing you don't know something. If you claim to know everything, you will not learn.

Does it bother anyone else that a politician declaring themselves an atheist would have no chance of being elected in America?

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error".

but i dont see that happening.

that's true, however i don't use that as an authority over others, it's my personal choice to follow a religion (christianity.. hate me if you will) and it benefits me personally so i don't see any reason not to follow it.

@josh d. way back

I like humanity. Hopefully one day it can stop killing itself long enough to save itself.

Does it bother anyone else that a politician declaring themselves an atheist would have no chance of being elected in America?

"Does it bother anyone else that a politician declaring themselves an atheist would have no chance of being elected in America?"

This is the sad truth. The US is vastly religious, far more so than northern Europe, and most do not find comfort in the idea that someone who does not believe in a (their) god can be morally qualified to run a nation "under god".

"
"Does it bother anyone else that a politician declaring themselves an atheist would have no chance of being elected in America?"
" yes

Exactly Unnamed.

and I feel like, as in every other religion/sect there are the radicals, the out-spoken, and to borrow from Red "Holier than thou" people. Athiests have it too, and it gives the entirety of us a bad name. Because I know, at least for my self. that I don't pretend to be better than anyone. I just know how I feel and I live content as such

Kind of an odd moral question, but if we accept the fact that atheism is a death sentence for a politician, would you lie about your atheism if you were aspiring to political office? Is honesty that important?

that's because 83% of the public is religious, and a majority of those people probably think atheists don't have the proper 'morals' to be a politician

Anyone see religulous? The part where Bill Maher pwned the governor and then he just said "you don't need to pass an IQ test to be in the senate" made me lol

Decep noone hates that you're christian.

It's just that noone likes being made fun of and called down because they aren't

The great thing about Canada/The States is we embrace diversity.

While that might be true you're also, as a national stereotype, unforgivably ignorant of the world outside north america.

@climactic My mouth dropped to the goddamn floor when the senator said that. Bill had the perfect reaction, just staring at him, and the politician wiped the smile off his face.

josh that was his point

stereotypes suck

..unless if they're true

Another sad thing is that many religious people think that, because atheists do not generally believe in the bible, and they don't believe in the word of god, they have no moral foundation.

in some cases

Guys it's chill, muslim women can sing now.

@Unnamed I always found that funny, since the Bible is filled with violence. I mean, Moses gets the commandments, comes back down the mountain and tells everyone to slaughter each other to cleanse themselves because they were worshipping the calf idol.

that was then, this is now

and they're also more cynical andcas. and if you want to stereotype, less friendly people.

I honestly wouldn't lie. Being who I am is a big part of my life. It's probably a big part of all of us. Hence why we all listen to what we do, We clearly don't fit the social norms that have been laid about by MTV, etc. (this is coming at you musically considering we can all look at each other and find out who likes what in that sense on this site easily)

I also think there is a general correlation with intelligence, education level, and religion in an inverse model.

hence why most scientists don't believe in god

rofl win, Bringin' er back to topic so smooth-like. I love it

I also think there is a general correlation with intelligence, education level, and religion in an inverse model.

Science - The pursuit of truth

Religion - The Pursuit of comfort/contentment

@Decep It's possible that atheist may be, in general, less friendly than your average Christian. I'm not sure if that holds any water, but I think that if there really is a correlation, it would be from feeling estranged due to having unpopular beliefs (or lack of beliefs if you prefer).

There'll always be exceptions but I think in general UnnamedOcean is correct

It's possible that atheist may be, in general, less friendly than your average Christian. I'm not sure if that holds any water, but I think that if there really is a correlation, it would be from feeling estranged due to having unpopular beliefs (or lack of beliefs if you prefer).

idnuf: it's becoming the same way for christians, at least on the internet, where it seems 80% of the population is atheistic

@ andcas: What...

On a bit of an unrelated note, in my history class, there is a piece of paper with an amazing quote on it.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can also make you commit atrocities."

On the first day of school when I saw that, I immediately thought, "Priests?"

"islamic religion and all their rules are so dumb."

wow

Big words make me sound smart.

"idnuf: it's becoming the same way for christians, at least on the internet, where it seems 80% of the population is atheistic"

I guess it really depends. I'm sure atheism is much higher than the ~16% we say we have here in the US, because I bet there are plenty of agnostics who identify themselves on surveys and their facebook and whatnot, just because they aren't sure, and accepting atheism seems extreme. I was like that once, then I said to myself "fuck this fence sitting" and I picked my ways.

@Idnuf
It's possible that atheist may be, in general, less friendly than your average Christian.

while on the other hand you're probably far less likely to find an atheist who is unfreindly toward someone of a nonchristian faith, in comparison to christians

i believe it was 12% josh d.

Nonetheless, the group is a huge minority :'(

And the least trusted of all minorities I must add.

@ andcas: So you believe Muslims are Christians?

the percentage of atheists.

'people who don't believe in religion are more rational and smarter than those who do. thats a fact.'

you really cannot make those generalizations my friend

But guys guys guys SERIOUSLY.



They can sing now. And I know that sounds like a really stupid comment at first, but progress and change aren't things that happen in these moments of greatness, but rather things that occur slowly. It sounds stupid but seriously, at least it's one tiny step forward. Hopefully there will be more to come.

they treat their women like shit and you can't even sing? yea its dumb.

How can you even say that? Sure you don't agree with two of their points but don't be calling their entire faith dumb.

christian propaganda machine

i am a muslim myself and this is just lol

@Dogget Well, that maybe be because Christianity has been the one taking it in the ass from atheists on the internet for the longest. Now that Christianity is on the decline, Islam and its growing population are becoming a more common target. As fucked up as it may sound, I would think less of a Muslim than a Christian if I knew nothing about them, simply because of their religion. The Bible has some absurd shit, but part of the Sharia is that all infidels should be killed.

Why can't you make that generalization Tuna?

How many athiests have killed / gone to war, to change another people because they don't agree with their ideals/thinking?

Some great examples of how people are wrong when they say "you can't hate a whole religion because of a few extreme people".

The Jyllands-Posten cartoon controversy. Islam kills people for idolatry, even if they aren't Musilm, and Denmark can't even live freely because of it, at least not at a price.

The British woman teaching in Sudan that was convicted and deported because she allowed he students to name the class "pet" teddy bear Mohammed.

The fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

These events took place in very different places, yet because of their Islamic teachings, it creates violence, murder, threats, and intimidation of all forms. So I won't sit idlely while people tell me not to judge a religion by a few. It isn't a few.

christianity has been decreasing by like 10% in the US with each passing decade

How can you even say that? Sure you don't agree with two of their points but don't be calling their entire faith dumb.

Because to people who come from parts of the world where everyone has equal rights and opportunities, it looks dumb.

"some* christians are nice to your face then persecute you behind your back so its all fake"

fix'd

unforunately, most of the world doesn't have equal rights and opportunities

@ Pink: Again man, a generalization. I absolutely agree that religious fundamentalism can cloud good reason, but saying that any irreligious person is "more rational and smarter" than any religious person is ignorant.

they treat their women like shit and you can't even sing? yea its dumb.

Because to people who come from parts of the world where everyone has equal rights and opportunities, it looks dumb.

so lets start a list of all the bands were sending over there to have a huge concert to change their opinions.

Good point Tuna, thank you for clarifying, :D!

@qwe3 It doesn't matter how they're treated in relation to what this guy thinks. Women not having equal rights is wrong, end of story.

No.

@RippingCorpse
why do you ask?

I hope you people are excluding Turkey !!

@qwe3 It doesn't matter how they're treated in relation to what this guy thinks. Women not having equal rights is wrong, end of story.

Because to people who come from parts of the world where everyone has equal rights and opportunities, it looks dumb.

Sure, some of their ideas look strange to the average person. Hell, even I think this is a bit ridiculous but as a Muslim, I really don't think you can judge the whole religion based on these things.

@qwe3 I'm still not sure I completely follow. Are you saying that women are not lesser but only different in Muslim societies? It just looks less from the viewpoint of someone from the outside? If so, I still have to disagree with it not being a problem. We should have the same rights, no matter what someone's viewpoint on whether it makes some lesser is. They SHOULD be able to show their face like men can. The rights being the same makes it objective.

Religion sucks. Period.

@bloc
For sure judging the whole religion and the people who followed it would be stupid, I was just saying that for people who have grown up in the western world seeing a lifestyle so drastically different generally evokes that response

Women in Muslim society should be able to go out like deathofasalesman's avatar instead of covering their faces.

@ deathofsalesman: Thank you for that well thought-out and non-biased comment.

For sure judging the whole religion and the people who followed it would be stupid, I was just saying that for people who have grown up in the western world seeing a lifestyle so drastically different generally revokes that response

Yeah, I can understand that.

for comfort. contentment.

I named three examples that involved millions of Muslims. You think it was only extremists burning Danish embassies? You think only a few Muslims wanted Rushdie dead?

Wrong on both accounts. It wasn't a few Muslims.

It's actually not a hard question to answer anyway. Why? To explain the world around us. People still want religion because they like feeling as though they have the answers to the world. Religion isn't NEEDED, but people like it.

@qwe3 The thing is, these "relatively non-violent/incendiary" people are the ones who weren't actually following the Qu'ran so they really have no reason to be Islamic.

Well I dunno about everyone else but I'm pretty fucking religious because I feel like I need to be guided in life. And it just works for me.

I feel like I'm coming into this one too late, so I'll just keep my head down and my eyes open and see if I can't pop into the convo/debate/troll war at the right time.

Also...Josh D. is the most insufferable type of asshole, because he's the asshole that actually makes sense.

is anyone but me and bloc actually religious?

@induf that might just be the dumbest thing ive ever seen on this site, and that's saying a lot.

I'm still not sure I completely follow. Are you saying that women are not lesser but only different in Muslim societies? It just looks less from the viewpoint of someone from the outside? If so, I still have to disagree with it not being a problem. We should have the same rights, no matter what someone's viewpoint on whether it makes some lesser is. They SHOULD be able to show their face like men can. The rights being the same makes it objective.

Clearly you don't know Maso and Emim ;)

is anyone but me and bloc actually religious?

"Well I dunno about everyone else but I'm pretty fucking religious because I feel like I need to be guided in life. And it just works for me."

Amen


@DoubtGin: I'm a Christian

"is anyone but me and bloc actually religious?"

*raises hand*

christian here

@qwe3 The thing is, these "relatively non-violent/incendiary" people are the ones who weren't actually following the Qu'ran so they really have no reason to be Islamic.

Saying this is retarded is silly. If you've ever studied Islam then you'd know qwe was right. If you've ever taken a religions class or a sociology class then you'd understand that human rights have developed over time in some countries faster and in some countries slower than they have in America. Saying "Islam is a stupid religion" is simply not understanding/interpreting cultural differences between continents and peoples.

Are there branches of Islam where the women don't have to cover their face and all that jazz?

Oh my gawd I am in a religious conversation, I guess it is time to prove that my culture is more correct-er and that I am incredibly deep.

Oh no, someone on the internet called me an idiot! So I guess you should be Islamic yet not follow the Qu'ran? I know the response, so don't even say it. The people who made religious texts believed in them, they weren't being metaphorical. There's no point in shrouding your message in metaphors if you want your point to get out there. I know that the text regarding killing infidels was specific to a situation, but why should a religious text have any violence in it? Anyway, to the other point, it doesn't matter if they think that they're doing the right thing. White people in America used to think they were doing the right thing by being racist, but we know better now. I refuse to believe that the viewpoint of the society that is hundreds of years behind the rest of the world is possibly correct. W/e, call me an idiot, but it just so happens to be true that Islam puts people down and is violent.

Are there branches of Islam where the women don't have to cover their face and all that jazz?

wow this thread USED to be somewhat intelligent

I refuse to believe that the viewpoint of the society that is hundreds of years behind the rest of the world is possibly correct.

Are there branches of Islam where the women don't have to cover their face and all that jazz?

Absolutely. I think people may be confused about actual Islam here; it's not just one religion but like Christianity it has many MANY branches that can actually be VERY different from each other, despite all being under the same "umbrella".

I am taken aback by your stunning logic qwe3. I now realize the error of my ways, I hang my head and shame and hope that you may forgive me.

"but it just so happens to be true"

Your relevance is out the window.

Absolutely. I think people may be confused about actual Islam here; it's not just one religion but like Christianity it has many MANY branches that can actually be VERY different from each other, despite all being under the same "umbrella".

So the chances of somebody getting punished for singing has decreased in parts of the world, I'll take the good news from this and give a thumbs up.

Absolutely. I think people may be confused about actual Islam here; it's not just one religion but like Christianity it has many MANY branches that can actually be VERY different from each other, despite all being under the same "umbrella".

So I guess all these different branches interpret or enforce sharia law differently?

completely dorian.

just glad i live in good ol californiaz

can't wait for the muslim version of arch enemy.

can't wait for the muslim version of arch enemy.

damn, I wish I'd seen this thread sooner...

"Islam, the new christianity."

i just want to address how stupid this post was.

addressed. haha

Thread is full of those.

This thread had so much bullshit. But a lot of great views and ideas. Glad to see there are a lot of thinkers out there.

there was a lot more bullshit but someone cleaned it all up

Yep. Oh well. The people who were here for it. saw it, that's good enough I guess

why should a religious text have any violence in it?

The people who made religious texts believed in them.


In all honesty, technology has advanced the human situation over the years. But, pre-world war 2 circumstances for the most part encouraged violence as an example of power and dominance over others. Just look at all the wars between Britain and France over the years before the general consensus accepted the fact that war is fucking dumb (albeit necessary at times). Asking this question is just not understanding the culture upon which the Islam religion and for that matter any other religion is founded upon.

Sure, a large part of some religions is not harming others, but oftentimes people mess that up. It's just like how Socialism would work perfectly if people weren't shitters.

what the fuck happened in here?

i quote

good discussion and debate will turn eventually into lowly trolling and one-liners

Religion is the only thing that should ever be discussed on the internet. They teach that in high school now.

@Josh D. - I just wanted to voice the fact that I've always found that many of your ideals on this site (usually musical opinion) have always been agreeable with mine. That being sad, most of what you and redsky have stated here I also fully agree with. Your statement of enjoying religious debate because it's the most important debate couldn't have been any better.

Just wanted to give you props.

Religious debates always end with trolling by the person who is getting their intelligence, or lack thereof, owned.

Also, lol at the news title.

PinkBlackberry:

On your point about 'how many atheists went to war' etc, there's this guy I want you to meet, name's Stalin. Another one's named Mao. Then there's Kim Jong-Il... this could go on.

As long as we all bash Christianity we're fine guys but DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH PRECIOUS ISLAM.

^......I agree with you to some extent, but it's a question of bashing what you're familiar with and what you're not.

they are all human. they are all flawed. most of this was directed at religion in general. if you
happen to align yourself with a certain faith more power to you, but at least try to look at things
objectively. there was no condoning harsh interpretations of islam in this thread, most of the
defending of islam was based on saying that you can't lump in everyone who believes in a religion with
the craziest members of it. that would be like saying all christians belong to the same biblical
interpretation as the westboro baptist church, which is bullshit and obviously untrue. think before
you type kiddies.

they are all human. they are all flawed. most of this was directed at religion in general. if you
happen to align yourself with a certain faith more power to you, but at least try to look at things
objectively. there was no condoning harsh interpretations of islam in this thread, most of the
defending of islam was based on saying that you can't lump in everyone who believes in a religion with
the craziest members of it. that would be like saying all christians belong to the same biblical
interpretation as the westboro baptist church, which is bullshit and obviously untrue. think before
you type kiddies.

so when's the muslim women album due?

Islam is dumb. Why is it dumb? Oh, where to begin. It's scientifically inaccurate (babies are "clots" that form between the spine and the stomach, I believe it was. The sun sets in mud at night... etc), it demonizes Jews (Do. Not. Deny. This.), it treats women like crap (we've established this.), and like all religions I am aware of, it tells us to just blindly believe it. Which is the opposite of clear, objective thought.

And, yes, it can be watered down. Probably will be. But why should I care? It will always be irrational. And, honestly, this is the tip of the ice berg. I could give you the historical origins of other religions it stole from when the religion was forming, flaws, inconsistencies, atrocities.... So, yeah, I have every right to think it's dumb.

I am trying oh-so-hard to not comment here, but CutMan you are really testing me...

well if you want to talk about text-piggybacking just look at the epic of gilgamesh and genesis. i would try to pull your head out of your ass so you could see some daylight but it's up there so deep im afraid i'd throw my back out.

womens cannot sing where i come from

.....I never said Genesis wasn't derivative. Are we assuming I'm only critical of Islam? I saw a lot of comments saying one could not judge an entire religion based on a few crazies. I wanted to speak for the perspective that thinks there's a whole lot more to judge than that, in defense of those who aren't just reacting to the crazies.

Unless that wasn't directed at me. But still, I feel there's some misunderstanding of my post here either way.

Yes. There are different kind of Muslims, different branches. Same goes for Christians. But I judge based on what all the branches come from. And even if it's a form that isn't violent or hateful.... It's still irrational, and if you want to believe in it, fine, enjoy, but I can still think it's dumb.

as long as you carry that mindset over towards all religions then im not gonna slag you and that seems to be the case.

It's the case.

And don't get me wrong, this mindset doesn't actually make me an unfriendly or abrasive person. I'm perfectly friendly to religious people, I just hope they don't ask me how I feel about their religion. I'm not saying the people are dumb, I think the religion is a mistake.

dumbest smart people i've ever seen

Well, even smart people can make terrible, terrible judgment calls. Or mental errors. Often based on emotion.

i'm gonna get the hell out of this thread, but in a jerry springer-esque final comment i just want to say that being overly aggressive in expressing your opinions on any subject can be incredibly off putting and no one that disagrees with you will actually listen to your argument. without both sides being open in their listening there is no sharing of ideas only cold reactionary rhetoric which only digs the hole deeper.

Well put, redsky. You're right. And it's easy to fall into over-aggression. I'm OBVIOUSLY a victim of it. Sometimes it's just too easy to be over-heated.

finally catching up with the rest of the planet in 2010...bravo.

The subjegation of women in the Islamic faith isn't limited to a minority. The most extreme examples are vastly in the minority, obviously, but in every facet of the religion women are to some extent considered lesser than their male counterparts. I've witnessed decades of the shit in my town alone, and against girls and women who are the third or fourth generation to be born in England. It's easy to say it's all just cultural differences, but the fact is that modern sensibilities have swung toward equality for good reason. If we don't criticise injustice then we are complicit, regardless of how retarded people think that is. And I'm sorry, but women wearing full body and face coverings under threat of very severe punishment - violence not being even slightly uncommon - is hardly the same as Western women living under threat of arrest and extremely minor punishment for walking around nude. In fact, in England at least, you can run onto a football pitch with your cock, balls, tits, vagina and every other thing flapping around for 60,000 people to see and all you'll get is a cheer and a stern warning.

i think that that is due in large to the large cloistered muslim communities in europe. as someone
from the states, assimilation into the culture is what's expected from them and that's what usually
ends up happening because there are no areas that are culturally secluded like that. if the ethnic
ghetto mentality of europe was diminished there would be no room for such cultural and theological
abuses. i know what you're talking about though, especially where violence comes in to play all too
much, and it is downright appalling. the way that many immigrant communities living in western
countries reject the culture by becoming even more militantly closed minded is disturbing.

I know I'm probably too late,(and sorry for the bad english) but the only things I don't understand about different religious views is why they have to "bully" other people' rights.

In the United States, they say that everyone has the right to express themselves(even if is it not really true(not there to discuss about that)) and are equal human beings. I don't have a real knowledge about Muslim, Islam and things like that, but don't their religion are bullying these 2 fundamental rights( even if these rights probably doesn't exist there)? Why their books doesn't take account about these rights? If someone can answer me go for it, because seriously, how can human live without being really free of doing whatever they want, if the thing amuse them or bring them comfort. Are the religious entities think that people would lose control of themselves if these religious laws wouldn't exist? Are they thinking that without religion and a lot of entertainment, people would be ultra violent and acting different?

Seriously, a lot of modern wars have really a strong religion side to it. Yes even WWII. Did Hitler wanted to create a "superior" race(a kind of new religion) and for him other religious people were "scums" ? Does the battle for the "Holy Land"(if people doesn't know about what I'm talking, I can't do a thing) is about religion? Does the Irak war is not a little bit part of American Faith(occidental) vs Irak Faith(oriental), even if the americans went there more for the petroleum? I can go on like that but don't have the time.

Seriously I don't care. If they want to wear burqa and all the others things like that, go for it. But why "bully" them if they want to do something different, creative(like music)? Why don't let them express their difference?

I don't have of lot of time and haven't really explained well my points, but hey:
1) I'm tired
2) I'm Atheist or agnostic(call it whatever you want to)
3) I think that a lot of religion are dogmas to control people and is a source of a lot of really awful things that happen on the planet. So, I'm really biaised about that.
4) Politic and moral debate are clearly not my things. I act impulsively, sometimes I'm rational, sometimes I'm emotional.

Well, looking back at this, that WAS really fucking stupid. I kinda said it while everyone was responding fast and I wasn't really thinking that much. Anyway, no one will read this, but to the response to me saying that religious texts shouldn't have violence in them: Of course I know the different values of the time when the texts were made, and how the texts reflect that, but these are supposed to the scriptures of God. Surely he would make something a little more timeless? That doesn't excuse the violence in the books. It's as if we had all the modern cars, but there was a group of people who said we should only drive the Model T. I mean, sure, it's totally outdated and useless, but it was amazing at the time, so it must still be relevant. There is, in fact, no reason for someone with the information available today to still be religious. Of course, religion is more prevalent in less educated societies, but we should try to get modern science into these places.

The most extreme examples of subjegation towards Islamic women might be limited to the few, but gender-based subjegation in general pervades almost the entire faith, even the most progressive communities to some degree. Women wearing full body and face coverings under threat of sever punishment - and violence is extremely common in my corner of England - is hardly the same as Western women living under the threat of mild punishment for walking around nude. In fact, in England, people who run onto football pitches with their tits and vaginas out in front of 70,000 people get a cheer and a stern warning. And the stern warning is something agreed on by the men and women of England, not an ancient piece of writing and men alone.


Also, atheism might seem like a religion to some, because like everything else in existence it attracts all kinds, even the slathering imbeciles. Science is always based around theory, but it always strives for proof of that theory through examination and experiment. Faith by its very defintion is belief without proof, or as Intelligent Design would have it, something misinterpreted so that it looks like proof. Have a look at how often the theories regarding astrophysics change, and how drastically, and you'll see that the reliance on science and rationality are a far cry from the restrictive structures of any religion.

2) I'm Atheist or agnostic(call it whatever you want to)

^ Contrary to popular belief, just agnostic is not a stance on anything. You are either an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. Agnostic only means that you don't claim to know. In this way, most atheists are agnostics.

i agree with pretty much everything you said. my experience with muslims comes from those in the states and they adhere to western norms and western values and everything is dandy. so i've seen a what i think it should be and have seen it work, but i do know that that is a huge problem through out the rest of the world and i wont deny that there is a lot of wrongs that come out of said faith.

@redskyformiles But don't you find something inherently wrong with something that can spawn extremists like those found in Islam? Of course, it isn't representative of the whole religion, but I can't really respect Islam when it allows these kinds of things. It's not like there is some effort to stop these extremists. The lack of negative attention they get outside of America suggest that they aren't very disliked in Islamic societies.

i see the same kind of extremism in christianity and in judaism. it all scares the shit out of me. if you read what i posted on the first page of this clusterfuck of a debate i said that there are a huge number of factors that spawn extremism in the middle east beyond religion. crazies exist everywhere. imagine what the united states would be like if the evangelical, racist, homophobic, jingoist bastards in the south and midwest had the america that they wanted? to me most of what happens now in the middle east stretches beyond religion and is purely political with religion as the scapegoat that allows such evils to persist.

You know what I find funny? Barbarians of pre-Dark Age Europe had no problem with being gay. We look on them as savages, yet people in America in 2010 are still homophobic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTMbd5HG6Do# listen to the cirque du soleil bit

If Muslims partied more, they wouldn't have these issues

Man, religion brings out the worst in people.

"to me most of what happens now in the middle east stretches beyond religion and is purely political with religion as the scapegoat that allows such evils to persist. "

BINGO. You see it happening all over the world, tribal and political conflicts being promoted as a religious conflict by each side so they can conjure up support for their own interests.

and in response to the question on the other page, yes, i am also a christian.

if anything, this thread shows how little the average Western male knows about Islam

Worth a read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/opinion/19kristof.html?src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

Well, I don't know if I'm included in the "people don't know that much about Islam" thing, but I know a great deal more than the people who think Muslims are nothing but killing machines and want to stop them from building community centers.

I'm not one of them. I just have a negative stance on religions that are a little too easily mixed in with violence.

All religion sucks. End of story.

Well, I don't know if I'm included in the "people don't know that much about Islam" thing, but I know a great deal more than the people who think Muslims are nothing but killing machines and want to stop them from building community centers.

I'm not one of them. I just have a negative stance on religions that are a little too easily mixed in with violence.

It's impossible to have a completely positive outlook on religions unless you are part of one

In most muslim countries, it is not a law that women must cover their heads, and there is no punishment for not covering the head. However, it has become a social convention, and there is a stigma attached to a woman who does not do it. This is why most women do it, as far as I know.

I live in a muslim state and none of the "hard laws" exist for women. They can do jobs, cover their heads if they want to or anything.

That shit only goes in Saudi Arabia and couple of other countries.

And lol at people saying religion is the only excuse of war. All wars have been on "indifferences". Religion was just one of the several reasons.

It always depends on the country, and then in the country it depends on your class or even the region you're in. And also the school of Islam you adhere to, and you're own personal beliefs about religion and your expression of your religiosity. Most of what people know about Islam is due to the unprecedented media frenzy over the last decade. Most of the world's Muslims are not like the ones in Saudi Arabia etc.

^Spot on!

I live in a muslim state and none of the "hard laws" exist for women. They can do jobs, cover their heads if they want to or anything.

That shit only goes in Saudi Arabia and couple of other countries.

And lol at people saying religion is the only excuse of war. All wars have been on "indifferences". Religion was just one of the several reasons.

the amount of stupidity/intolerance/hypocrisy in this thread is sadly just what i expected from a religious "discussion".

So. Islam is not a religion that is easily mixed up with violence. Interesting. So the Qur'an has nothing in it about killing Jews?

For instance, towards the end of it, how even trees that Jews will hide behind saying there is a Jew hiding behind it so the Muslims can kill them? Or perhaps a passage about monkeys stoning an adulterous monkey, implying that "see? Even animals do it, so we should"- which is kind of a drug trip, honestly.

Or are you saying because branches of the religion disregard these violent parts of their source work I should be okay with them? Or, hey, I confess, I've not read the book itself, only parts from places. Perhaps I'm living a lie, here, I'd be relieved. Am I wrong?

"You're stupid get out."

Explain how it's so stupid when generally the greatest atrocities that have occured in history are because of religion. This isn't limited to Islam btw I don't claim to have any extensive knowledge about their writings.

Just a point to add for the people who say Islamic countries give no rights to women. In the Koran woman are give a huge amount of right never thought of in Jewish/Christian/Dahmic countries e.g. the right to divorce and still take some of the possessions. Also in the Koran stoning someone to death for adultery is never mentioned. Its not Islamic law to treat woman these ways it’s the laws and cultures of the countries them selves. So pinning the blame on the Muslim religion is just plain ignorant.

"Explain how it's so stupid when generally the greatest atrocities that have occured in history are because of religion. This isn't limited to Islam btw I don't claim to have any extensive knowledge about their writings."

Religions dont perform atrocities people do. A book cannot be resposable for humans ignorence and want to perform these acts

To Cutman

i have a copy of the Koran on my desk and where the hell does it say the monkey bit cause i cant find it???

"Religions dont perform atrocities people do. A book cannot be resposable for humans ignorence and want to perform these acts"

But they want to perform these acts because they are led to believe they're doing the right thing because of the content in the scriptures. I see where you're coming from, but I just think we'd be better off without it.

True we would be better off with out all the violence caused from religion.

i have a question all this anger towards religion is based on hatred for there ideals or what the say/do how do people feel about the Jain religion. A religion where to kill or harm in anyway is never forgiven (there monks were known to willingly be killed rather than defend themselves and harm there attacker). would you have such a problem with religions like that

also to note i am a practicing zen buddhist (and my religion is far from saintly so i dont claim to be better than anyone else due to it)

'atheism has basically become a religion'

This makes literally no sense.

It's really fun to see that my comment did go out without really no one answering me. Damn it.

"Religions dont perform atrocities people do. A book cannot be resposable for humans ignorence and want to perform these acts"

But if these people claims that their acts are because of the "said book"? Is it the same thing?

You also claim that humans are ignorant and perform atrocities because of that or something in these line(what I understand). An absurd claim!!! Every humans have the intelligence to choose to interpret the book(or anything you want) of the manner they want to. If they understand from the book, "priest" that they have to kill other peoples, they will do it. Sure, us, will see that as ignorant people, but I'm more inclined to say that these people are brainwashed from the moment of their births to do these atrocious things. For them, doing these atrocities is like a redemption because from the moment they entered this world, their existence is kinda a divine mission.

Again, I don't have time because I seriously need to go to my nursing course(Yeah, I'm a man doing it).

lol, chill out guys. you all think you're all changing everyones views on religion, whether you are for it or against it. your comments aren't that hard-hitting as this is a music site and everyone is going to forget about whatever you said in like 5 days, so don't try to put so much effort into it.

"lol, chill out guys. you all think you're all changing everyones views on religion, whether you are for it or against it. your comments aren't that hard-hitting as this is a musicsite and everyone is going to forget about whatever you said in like 5 days so don't try to put so much effort into it."

It isn't about changing anyone's views for me, I just want to savour the discussion before we have to go back to seeing people bashing each other for having an opinion.

'i see the same kind of extremism in christianity and in judaism. it all scares the shit out of me.'

Totally agree, Islam is on the same sort of backward thought track as Christianity was during the Crusades and even after that. Saying Islam or Sharia Law is the worst thing ever is stupid, because Christianity was just as bad and in some cases still is as bad as Islam is today. Basically pretty much all religions have their bad points. Personally i think anyone who lives their life through books, stories and religions that were made up thousands of years ago by HUMANS need to get themselves checked. But thats just my personal opinion. The person who said Atheism is a religion is an idiot. Yes it has a following like religions and yes there are alot of douchebags preaching it and trying to convert people into it (something ive always been against religion doing, i see it as indocrination and brainwashing) but you need some sort of belief system in the supernatural or illlogical. Whether it would be a god, spirituality, ghosts, Scientology (i say that in a group because i dont know much about it and am pretty ignorant towards it) etc. Atheism has none of these, so it cant be a religion.

'And lol at people saying religion is the only excuse of war. All wars have been on "indifferences". Religion was just one of the several reasons.'

Thats exactly what i thought reading some of these posts. Being a university student studying history, there can be many reasons that cause war, religion is a main reason, some are purely for religious reasons. But also political agendas and economical factors play a major role in many wars and also several other smaller points specifically to that particular war.

but the discussion will just go in circles and everyone knows that the outcome will lead to nowhere.

-was directed at shin

It's better than arguing about someone who doesn't like Converge or something like that.

@Hollier: Well said. Scientology is basically proof that any crackpot with enough charisma can pass off some inane bullshit as a religion.

i just really don't like hearing about religious arguments i guess. you guys can continue.

Shit there's some dumb people on sputnik.

Not all people are intelligent enough to make rational choices the only reason all of this debate exisits is beacuse Aethist have been allowed to exisit s=within the last 200 years befor that they would have been killed. thats not to say i disagree lol im glad we have these debates but this will continue onwards for a very long time. religion has been with man ever since we first got scared at shadows on cave walls and will be with us even if we live long enough to sort out our diffrences. trust me none of my comments are meant to encourage or defend religion but its always been with us and helped us make sense of the world. so is that really a bad thing. think of the beautiful art and poetry to come from christianity and islam. i tink the world would be an even more lonly dark place with out religion.

' i tink the world would be an even more lonly dark place with out religion.'

Thats really down to personal preference. Religion has always been about a personal choice. Im way more happy with my life without religion than i would be with it. If i was indoctrinated or forced to believe in a religion i think id feel less happy than i am now.

I couldnt agree more. Religion is the most personal thing in the whole world. I could never explain how i feel about my religion as its to personal and i feel the major problem with religion is forcing something so person to become regimented and regulated when really its just another form of human expression.

also sorry about the spelling on my posts

To the person who asked: The monkey thing is somewhere. If not in the book, it was written by one of Muhammad's disciples. If so, oops, mixed it in with the original work in my head.

Oh sure it wasnt made up like a lot of bad thigs that are apprently in the Koran (im not saying there arnt any bad things just that most whats supposed to be in there isnt)

@redsky and streetlight

Cobbler a la mode is the best. End of story

Naffa, yes, plenty is made up by the talking heads at Fox news, and by conservative bigots. Yes. There is a foolish form of ignorant fear of Muslims in the country right now.

I am, as surprising as it may be, not a part of that. I'm not scared of them, I don't think they're all violent, I don't think they're all terrorists, or even that they're all the same. But that's no reason why I should like or approve of the religion.

think of the beautiful art and poetry to come from christianity and islam.

I went to school with these mennonite kids who weren't allowed to listen to anything with drums. Completely serious.

I went to school with these mennonite kids who weren't allowed to listen to anything with drums. Completely serious.

Yeah, because ALL music has drums.

Yeah, because ALL music has drums.

I think the intent was simply to emphasize that possibly most music- at least most contemporary music period- has drums, therefor they are missing out hard. Let's not be so technical.

Actually I was just being entirely sarcastic.

"atheism has basically become a religion'

sooo thinking that religion sux is a religion? lololol

I think the fact that some religious people think atheism is a religion demonstrates part of what is wrong with said religious people's way of thinking...