Havey 06.30.13

"We’re in the process of implementing a loose grouping structure for the genres." Now that's what I wanted to hear! Things are working out very nicely

owen 06.30.13

This keeps getting better

Bab 06.30.13

How sexy. Glad to see these changes have been made

treeqt. 06.30.13

we 6% wubstep now heyyyy : ] or at least a couple minutes ago now it's 6% techno rip. anyway i like

YakNips 06.30.13

I like it

tommygun 06.30.13

this is swee love your work fellas

thumbcrusher 06.30.13

good job guys

Hyperion1001 06.30.13

i really dig the new system, its not perfect yet but it will probably be a while before all the dust settles and kinks get smoothed out

thumbcrusher 06.30.13

one thing, will the new pie charts show up on our ratings page soon?

Cygnatti 06.30.13

Omg yes! Any word on prog rock and alternative issue?

NeoSpaz 06.30.13

Excellent

Yuli 06.30.13

Great

Apollo 06.30.13

Really liking the new changes. Great work.

balazs 06.30.13

Yay for the grouping structure! Things are great, good job, thanks

Cygnatti 06.30.13

I was wondering, when you click the browse genres tab, some of them are bolded. I was thinking that it'd be in regards to the 'loose grouping structure for the genres', but I'm not so sure.

anarchistfish 06.30.13

Sweet. Could still pose a problem for artists with only a single genre (it's rare, but it applies to stuff like hip hop a lot) but otherwise this is shaping up really well.

Cygnatti 06.30.13

fish. is right, but as of now, most hip-hop artists are simply hip-hop, though we can't say that someone won't go against that anyways. maybe the 2nd genre should also have the 15 % rule as well?

GiaNXGX 06.30.13

kewl but how's suggesting spectralism considered trolling, this site isn't 4chan as far as I can tell. I shouldn't have been banned for no concrete reason, and by concrete reason I mean (and I'm being completely serious) that these suggestions are meant to improve the site and banning users for suggesting them is discouraging and counterproductive to say the least. i wasn't troll-tagging whichever artists i could get my hands on so please take into consideration that this new system shouldn't be a progenitor of cause amusement or anger but of advancement and professionality. >requests unban http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_music http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Spectralism/ http://www.last.fm/tag/spectralism

GiaNXGX 06.30.13

*or cause of

foxblood 06.30.13

awesome! my pie has already changed drastically

Adabelle 06.30.13

^lol, chill out man. Really enjoying the new system, I'd give it a 4.5/5

nbaronz 06.30.13

This is shaping up to be a very nice update. Well done.

Mad. 06.30.13

Why the hell is there no Hard Rock genre? That's a pretty major label

GnarlyShillelagh 06.30.13

can we get new colors for the pie chart?

Keyblade 06.30.13

awesome stuff. alternative is gone from my pie chart, now only the redundant metal tag left.

Keyblade 06.30.13

wait now metal is gone and replaced with post-rock which I barely have rated...think it's because of bands lime Neurosis and Isis being tagged that

ViperAces 06.30.13

"Third’ genres should no longer appear unless they have at least 15% of the total votes" should apply for second genres too, but with like 30%. bands like camel can be easily tagged as djent

Havey 06.30.13

"but how's suggesting spectralism considered trolling" I think the ban was for saying you'd flood their boards with spectralism and cajun until they accept the avant-garde tag, not for suggesting spectralism ;) Threats are not appreciated And to be fair, spectralism is a compositional technique, not exactly a genre. (though I agree it'd make a useful tag)

ViperAces 06.30.13

btw, i think second genres shouldnt have as much weight on the charts as main genres

treeqt. 06.30.13

A problem with especially Electronic and its subgenres will be that it's practical impossible to have Techno/Dubstep etc. in your piechart and not Electronic at the same time. Since every Electronic artist will be tagged Electronic + Subgenre a rating will always count towards two genres in the pie chart and thus technically make all the %s wrong.

GiaNXGX 06.30.13

'And to be fair, spectralism is a compositional technique, not exactly a genre. (though I agree it'd make a useful tag)' true, and that's why it would work wonders as a secondary tag for classical composers (adding indeterminacy, microtonality, lowercase and whatnot would be considerably far-fetched). And nothin wrong with a spice-ing drop of sarcastic humor btw

Havey 06.30.13

Yeah I do agree with that. With so many composers in the database I think it's too simple to have just one tag for every one of them (classical)

foxblood 06.30.13

yes tree's right. not really sure how that can be fixed though

Adabelle 06.30.13

Just to satisfy my curiosity, were the pie chart colours changed to a standard sequence (red green blue pink brown dull green purple orange) as it would be too difficult to differentiate colours between genres as had been the case before (e.g. metal being dark colours and alt/indie and folk, etc being light colours)? It's really not that important (edit: not even slightly important) but it would kind of be quite cool to be able to change the colours hahah

ILJ 06.30.13

good shit, you guys are awesome

GiaNXGX 06.30.13

experimental ---------> turquoise

Atari 06.30.13

Damn 8 genres in the pie chart :D

Insurrection 06.30.13

regarding the classical thing i think it would be nice to differentiate them by time periods, i.e. classical- baroque, romantic, modern, contemporary etc. not sure whats the most practical way to implement that though, maybe as secondary genres only

Tyrael 06.30.13

I couldn't help but notice the 'djent' genre tag has been removed is that a permanent change?

Cygnatti 06.30.13

@insurrection, that seems to be a bit tedious, don't you think. I thought about it too, but I'd prefer not.

Nifkin 06.30.13

New layout blows

Cygnatti 06.30.13

Aka "I don't like change!"

anarchistfish 06.30.13

When I try to delete all tags I've voted for for a particular artist the site glitches out.

Skoj 07.01.13

Excellent work. Actually needs "skramz" as a genre.

NordicMindset 07.01.13

you made the metal leave my chart

Emyay 07.01.13

i like the new shit

minimesmyidol 07.01.13

Love it. A weighting system would pretty much make it perfect.

Winsomniac 07.01.13

Whose dick do I have to suck to get 'Junz' as a subgenre with only The Ghost Inside in it?

Deviant. 07.01.13

*unzip*

Winsomniac 07.01.13

OH GOD NO ANYTHING BUT THE KIWANG JOM PLS

rockandmetaljunkie 07.01.13

Can anyone answer if the R&B tag stands for Contemporary R&B or for the old Rhythm & Blues ?

geasoftime 07.01.13

It would be useful to create a subgenre system, at some point. I know concision is the goal, but there are some very distinct genres that are currently mislabeled: Glitch, Melodic Death Metal, Atmospheric Black Metal, Funeral Doom, and Blackgaze for example. These are all very large distinct genres and to label them as their parent genre doesn't really do them justice. Melodic Death Metal is a world apart from Death Metal, but there are no qualifiers in place to express that.

Keyblade 07.01.13

Agree with you except for blackgaze. that's kinda redundant. Actually even the other ones. If we have 1 sub-sub genre, we might as well have the rest. Why atmospheric black metal, but not symphonic? Really melodeath is the only one that should have it's own tag, because it's actually it's own subgenre, and not a subgenre of death metal as is the common misconception.

Deviant. 07.01.13

"Can anyone answer if the R&B tag stands for Contemporary R&B or for the old Rhythm & Blues ?" It stands for rhythm & blues, so technically it could fall under both. But it's being used for the more contemporary stuff, for the most part "It would be useful to create a subgenre system, at some point. I know concision is the goal, but there are some very distinct genres that are currently mislabeled: Glitch, Melodic Death Metal, Atmospheric Black Metal, Funeral Doom, and Blackgaze for example. These are all very large distinct genres and to label them as their parent genre doesn't really do them justice" My comment in the last thread: I'm all for better integration and such, but a lot of you guys need to be realistic here. For instance; "blackgaze", really? We're not in the trendy blogtag business. If a band or artist you listen to implements both black metal and shoegaze, then surely you would just tag the band/artist as such, right? Like, when you add 1 + 1 and get 2. I don't know, my maths is a little bit rusty these days...

Motiv3 07.01.13

Must be why my pie chart keeps changing all the time. Loving these changes and it keeps improving. Great work guys!

NeoSpaz 07.01.13

Funeral Doom...? okay some of you guys have to be yanking my chains

Keyblade 07.01.13

Funeral doom is awesome and a very big sub-sub genre so I don't see what's wrong with that. Not that it should have a tag, but it's akin to brutal death or prog/power for example.

ViperAces 07.01.13

the only tags this site REALLY needs now that i know of are melodeath, melodic black metal, heavy metal and hard rock

Cygnatti 07.01.13

non-metal genres could use some help, viper.

ViperAces 07.01.13

non-metal genres?

Chrisjon89 07.01.13

i think the system is great. a couple of questionable tags from users but overall it rules. my pie chart changes all the time now but it better reflects what I listen to.

Cygnatti 07.01.13

classical, jazz, alternative, punk, etc.

ViperAces 07.01.13

maybe new-wave is needed but my knowledge ends there

Cygnatti 07.01.13

yeah, fox and I have been vouching for new wave. really hope it happens, new wave might actually show up in my pie chart too.

Keyblade 07.01.13

"melodic black metal" not at all man. atmospheric black metal is a bigger subgenre (though it is a little bit vague), and even that doesn't deserve a tag

ViperAces 07.01.13

but dude its not the same as regular black metal:/ i think that any tag that wikipedia uses is legit enough for sputnik. progressive thrash for example is too much, when you can just use prog metal and thrash as two tags, but melodic black metal and black metal are not the same and need to be differentiated

Keyblade 07.01.13

dude it's the same, it's just a subgenre. if melodic black deserves a tag, where does that leave symphonic black and the other subgenres?

ViperAces 07.01.13

with a tag too?

Keyblade 07.01.13

honestly, black metal is perfectly fine as an umbrella tag, as are pretty much all the metal subgenres. melodeath needs to be separated though as it's its own subgenre.

ViperAces 07.01.13

whats an umbrella tag?

NeoSpaz 07.01.13

Something that covers a large genre. Melodeath is a must though.

ViperAces 07.01.13

oh well ill give up the fight for melodic black. still wanting melodeath heavy metal and hard rock

Keyblade 07.01.13

yeah heavy metal needs one too. we need to get rid of the redundant "metal" tag, just like the alternative one

ViperAces 07.01.13

yea, but rock needs to stay

anarchistfish 07.01.13

"but melodic black metal and black metal are not the same and need to be differentiated" both black metal. don't need to differentiate more than that

treeqt. 07.01.13

so you discuss metal sub sub sub sub sub genre tags while there is not a single tag to further differentiate between jazz and classical respectively, ok.

NeoSpaz 07.01.13

true. that should be prioritized.

ViperAces 07.01.13

im not saying there shouldnt be any subgenres for jazz and classical, but i dont know shit about that. how can i suggest genres i dont even know exist?

Keyblade 07.01.13

even if you don't know they exist, it's obvious that they have subgenres just like metal does. and the fact that they don't have tags, while metal has subgenre tags (and we're discussing subgenre tags) is kinda unfair

ViperAces 07.01.13

so you say i shouldnt try to improve the system in ways i can just because i dont know what sub-genres classical music has?

bakkermaarten007 07.01.13

So I can start all over again suggesting tags that were approved already last week? On it.

Insurrection 07.01.13

"Third’ genres should no longer appear unless they have at least 15% of the total votes" should apply for second genres too, but with like 30%. seconded

anarchistfish 07.01.13

The genre 2 requirement should be lower than genre 3. Might be better to measure it as a ratio to genre 1 rather than as an overall percentage. Otherwise all the random genres with single votes could affect it.

anarchistfish 07.01.13

Actually if anything they should be the same.

SaveYourBreath 07.01.13

I miss being able to click on a band on the front page and see what genre they are straight away when looking for reviews and such, where it used to have the general category highlighted before, something like this could be recreated, to make it clear when you view album reviews to see which genre a band are straight away.

Pennywise_M 07.01.13

Great job guys.

Winsomniac 07.02.13

Black Metal Slightly Blacker Metal

exitsense 07.02.13

I think it's wiser to consider suggesting different periods of classical (since there is a big difference in sound with modern classical and baroque period) than to consider suggesting spectralism which is an even more specific subgenre falling under modern classical. However, some genres are missing that I would NOT consider micro-genres AT ALL. Such as noise. Why noise rock but not noise? Noise rock can fall under rock or alternative but where can noise fall under? (Sometimes industrial, but not always.) People'd consider this a micro-genre because of how underground it is, but there is actually a LOT of noise music out there. I've suggested free improvisation too, and no, this doesn't apply to less than 30 artists; there is a lot of free improvisation being done out there. The thing is that it's not really popular on Sputnik... People go on websites that cover more experimental music to look for this stuff, but that doesn't mean we should exclude these genres. Because unlike spectralism which could easily be tagged with (modern) classical, I don't know what to tag free improv or noise except "experimental" and that's too vague and barely means anything. Honestly I see it as insulting for genres like noise, free improvisation and musique concrete to be considered "micro-genres" -- this music may be off the radar to a lot of people but there is definitely a lot of this music, and people that listen to this music can attest that "experimental" is insufficient and that these genres aren't similar to each other to be lumping them all under experimental. They have their own sound enough to be called a genre. With electroacoustic/musique concrete I'm not sure whether to tag as experimental, classical or electronic when it's sort of loosely all of those, but really neither. And maybe if Sputnik were open to mentioning these genres and covering them, more people that like this type of music would consider joining the Sputnik community and contributing...

exitsense 07.02.13

And why aren't Samba or Bossa Nova genres?? This website is too rock centric for its own good. Brazilian music is popular with a lot of people! Seriously, there isn't even a "Latin" tag...

liledman 07.02.13

I agree whole-heartedly. Modern classical is a bit troublesome as a catch-all term, but in Sputnik's case, it makes more sense than having a whole bunch of other terms instead. If Sputnik acknowledged the existence of these types of music that have been around as long or longer than rock, then perhaps the general constitution of the site will improve.

Cygnatti 07.02.13

Relax Claudio, I've already requested for bossanova, among other things. You do have good points, but they haven't even implemented like 99% of the genres requested by users yet. That will come in due time.

Cygnatti 07.02.13

Also, noise was one of the genres they definitely seemed like they were going to implement, in fact it was added to the database for a few hours. It'll probably come back soon.

Havey 07.02.13

I spent an hour or so tagging stuff as noise and then they decided to get rid of it for some reason. I eagerly await its return

GiaNXGX 07.02.13

ilu fractured

Havey 07.02.13

you mean midwayer

GiaNXGX 07.02.13

~no i mean fractured

Chrisjon89 07.02.13

"Relax Claudio, I've already requested for bossanova, among other things. " sweet. was considering that myself as well as MPB but I didn't know if there was really much of an audience for it.

MisterTornado 07.02.13

i just had about 800 tags disappear overnight. alot of the artists i tagged aren't even tagged with any genre anymore (IE: I tagged Gimu as "ambient" and "drone", and no he longer has any tags). What's up with that?

MisterTornado 07.02.13

actually, every single tag of mine has been whipped clear.

treeqt. 07.02.13

wtf

theacademy 07.03.13

I got my twin glock .40s, cocked back! Me and my homies, so drop that! We rollin on twenties, with the top back! So much money, you can't stop that! happy belated canada day!

TMobotron 07.03.13

where did grime go

Deviant. 07.03.13

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/genre.php?id=48 Was it showing up somewhere that it isn't now?

TMobotron 07.03.13

Just the browse genres drop-down on the top bar doesn't show it - for me at least. If that's intentional, carry on.

Deviant. 07.03.13

I think, if memory serves, that the browse window only shows genres with 30+ votes (/ artists tagged with the genre). That means that when the new genre system was implemented everything showed up due to no/very little votes. Now with a few days behind us, some genres will edge out others, due to popularity, and our database actually containing 30+ grime artists For instance, breaks doesn't show up anymore

TMobotron 07.03.13

Ahh got it, thanks.

xenocide. 07.03.13

"If a band or artist you listen to implements both black metal and shoegaze, then surely you would just tag the band/artist as such, right?" The problem is blackgaze isn't really black metal. Do you know what are the #2 & #3 albums on the black metal chart at the moment? Entropia & deafheaven. These are great albums, but they definitely shouldn't be considered as the "black metal albums of the year". It's just confusing.

zxlkho 07.03.13

suggested new tag: "my cat died when this played"

Cygnatti 07.03.13

"The problem is blackgaze isn't really black metal. " "A style emerging around the turn of the 21st century that became increasingly popular during the latter part of the aughts. These artists incorporate non-metal influences such as Shoegaze and Post-Rock into the aesthetic of atmospheric and depressive Black Metal." Seems good enough.

xenocide. 07.03.13

Do you have any personal experience with those genres, or do you only know what wikipedia says?

Pennywise_M 07.03.13

"suggested new tag: "my cat died when this played" " Good, we were in need for that one!

treeqt. 07.03.13

i think the fact that blackgaze is in the 2013 bm top 10 is a testament for how well the genre tagging system is working so far

treeqt. 07.03.13

like positively so

Keyblade 07.03.13

Entropia and Deafheaven are both very much black metal, and there is nothing wrong with tagging them as such

MisterTornado 07.03.13

"For transparency's sake: I don't know what happened. I no longer have access to the genre pool, so I can't even approve/reject genres anymore (not that I could previously, but I could at least see the list). My guess is that it will get re-rolled out once he's finalized the decision tree. Sorry about that, but I don't know what happened yet." I'm not sure what happened either. It's not like I went around and tagged everyone wrong either, so I was a bit confused to see every single one of my tags gone.

xenocide. 07.04.13

Sweet. Could still pose a problem for artists with only a single genre (it's rare, but it applies to stuff like hip hop a lot) but otherwise this is shaping up really well. [2] Does Run The Jewels really deserve to be the top Post-Metal AOTY so far?

henryChinaski 07.04.13

Great addition!

greg84 07.05.13

Hard Rock and Heavy Metal have been added to the tag system.

Voivod 07.05.13

perfect gets more perfect.

Cygnatti 07.05.13

jazz fusion and melodic death metal are also here/back.

Lowder91bird 07.05.13

Folk Metal its still not there.

greg84 07.05.13

ah yes... also these two

Cygnatti 07.05.13

"Folk Metal its still not there." good.

Keyblade 07.05.13

"i don't listen to genre therefore it is insignificant" - cygnazi 2013

Voivod 07.05.13

There is the Folk tag, so it's enough, I guess.

Keyblade 07.05.13

"jazz fusion and melodic death metal are also here/back." sweet also explains why i lost the jazz slice of my chart

Cygnatti 07.05.13

""i don't listen to genre therefore it is insignificant" - cygnazi 2013" because we don't already have 15+ metal genres on this. yet there's only two (hip-hop/grime) hip-hop tags, no new wave (which is pretty much almost a decade of popular music), one classical tag, not even screamo, avant garde, neofolk, power electgronics or krautrock.

Keyblade 07.05.13

all i'm saying is it's just as valid as all the other metal tags, as it is one of the 10 or so main subgenres

rockandmetaljunkie 07.06.13

Sweet decisions to re-add the jazz-fusion and hard rock genres. I have a question: What's the point of having Metal and HM ? What purpose HM will serve as an available tag ?

Chortles 07.06.13

yeah generic metal tag should probably just go

greg84 07.06.13

It's still needed to tag the subgenres of metal we don't have in the database like alt metal, Southern metal and such.

treeqt. 07.06.13

avant-garde free jazz screamo ...

exitsense 07.07.13

I think "experimental" already covers "avant-garde". They're interchangeable in most cases. People just use the term "experimental" more liberally and inappropriately, as in the case of Bandcamp artists wanting to seem more interesting, or last.fm users tagging every band that sounds a little "different" with "experimental".

Winsomniac 07.07.13

Guys I can't tell if this one band is Black Metal or Slightly Blacker Metal Band is Ke$sha. Thoughts?

IbenizGEO1 07.07.13

^^ lol

MisterTornado 07.08.13

The experimental tag is getting frustrating. I believe it should only be left to artists that cannot fit under any of the other available tags, and not artists like.. Lil B, Baths, Primal Scream, Jenny Hval, Soap and Skin, David Bowie, The Flaming Lips, Thundercat, How to Destroy Angels, etc ...artists who maybe be "adventurous" at best (lol at Lil B & How to Destroy Angels), but it's a tag that should only be attributed to artists whose sound doesn't fit under any of the other tags (every single artist mentioned above can be tagged with something else other than experimental that suits their sound better [ie: Lil B - Hip-Hop / Primal Scream - Psychedelic). Having an "Art Pop" tag would solve alot of this (that could cover Jenny Hval, Soap and Skin, David Bowie, The Flaming Lips, and countless others). Artists like a Keith Rowe, a Jakob Ullmann, or a Graham Lambkin have an extremely tough sound to pinpoint that doesn't fit under any of the other available tags, so experimental is a tag that's relevant to these artists. But to see experimental artists like that surrounded by artists like The Flaming Lips or Jenny Hval, it brings such a broad meaning to the term "experimental" that it makes the page completely irrelevant. We need some standards with the experimental tag, because really "experimental" isn't a genre at all - it's an idea. And it's an idea that needs definition.

Cygnatti 07.08.13

I second artpop, and krautrock again. But I don't necessarily think that experimental isn't a genre. I would think that velvet underground is experimental rocks because they did things in rock that no one did before, and heavily influenced numerous genres afterward.

MisterTornado 07.08.13

Sure "experimental rock" is alot more established than "experimental" because it's cutting out any other kind of implication other than rock music. But "experimental" is idea, not a genre. You could argue Lil B is "experimental" because he put out a couple ambient tapes, or Radiohead are "experimental" because they toyed around with genres, and you wouldn't be wrong. But in the case of "experimental" as a tag and separate page here on Sputnik, it needs more definition than that. And that's why it should only be left to artists who don't fit under any of the other available tags.

Cygnatti 07.08.13

Ah okay, then. And lol at lil b. I think it was a joke, well hopefully anyways.

treeqt. 07.08.13

I agree but then again you could just add more genres. Like actually distinctive ones. (not symphonic epic melodic post-gaze crust black doom drone metal)

MisterTornado 07.08.13

Without any structure like it's going now, Lil B, Radiohead, and Morton Feldman are all technically "experimental", and that kind of lazy all-encompassing definition makes the page look like a clustered unorganized mess that helps nobody.

Keyblade 07.08.13

epic melodic post gaze black doom metal sounds like the greatest thing ever

Cygnatti 07.08.13

yeah, I actually had a little rant saying basically the same thing you did last week. experimental should be used rather conservatively.

MisterTornado 07.08.13

It's hilarious that "Melodic Death Metal" got approved before Art Pop or Krautrock.

treeqt. 07.08.13

And Avant-garde, Free Jazz, Free Improv ... And that Noise got removed. And Screa... oh my.

Cygnatti 07.08.13

Yep. Yep...

MisterTornado 07.08.13

Yeah I was confused by noise getting removed. They probably accidently put it in thinking it would cover SONIC YOUTH and then people started tagging AARON DILLOWAY and PRURIENT as noise and that totally didn't sound like SONIC YOUTH so no more noise =

MisterTornado 07.08.13

We're not seeing them at all. We're requesting ;) (seriously Art Pop & Krautrock at least)

greg84 07.08.13

How is Art Pop different from Indie Pop?

Cygnatti 07.08.13

"What I mean is I can't approve anything if I don't see them in the queue. Have you gone to a Krautrock artist page and typed in 'Krautrock' as a genre? That's how genres are formally proposed (as far as I understand it)." oh, well I assumed the genres we proposed 2 weeks ago still standed because that's when I did all of that. if you need us to go around propose the genres again, someone should've said so earlier because I'm on it now!

MisterTornado 07.08.13

Indie Pop has the characterization of pop with a more melodic, light hearted sound (ie: Belle and Sebastian, Sufjan Stevens, The Magnetic Fields) whereas Art Pop is far more "experimental" in nature and deviates from conventional structure/instrumentation all together (Bjork, Kate Bush, Shiina Ringo)

Cygnatti 07.08.13

hmm, when I requested for Artpop it said: "Duplicate entry '255' for key 'PRIMARY'" I'm guess that someone already asked for it, then.

MisterTornado 07.08.13

"Have you gone to a Krautrock artist page and typed in 'Krautrock' as a genre? That's how genres are formally proposed (as far as I understand it)." i just figured somebody already had. Will do now

greg84 07.08.13

I've always liked the tag Art Pop, but never gotten enough Staff support for it to be implemented.

MisterTornado 07.08.13

We shall see. If there's any dispute of it not being a singular genre or too close to Indie Pop or some shit I'm ready to D E B A T E. Art Pop would help clear up alot of awkward tags (ie: Bjork's tagged Electronic / Experimental / Trip Hop, whereas Art Pop would pretty much cover all three of those) and help clean up all the pop artists appearing on the experimental page

treeqt. 07.08.13

I suggested tons of stuff but nothing ever happened so I stopped.

MisterTornado 07.08.13

n e v e r s t o p

Cygnatti 07.08.13

down voting... we needs it.

auberginedreams 07.10.13

can we plz get screamo