Hello, wonderful users/contribs/staff/mods/lurkers/mx, and welcome to another edition of Sputnik Discusses! Davey’s MIA this week (my money’s on him having to stave off Australia’s terrifying wildlife), so I’ll be doing whatever I can to prompt and moderate the discussion this time around. I’m in the midst of our school’s “reading period,” which is essentially the lull before the maelstrom of finals in which we study as frantically as we can and/or procrastinate as frantically as we can, so I’ll hopefully have some time to respond to as many of you as I can in the comments section. Don’t be surprised if Davey manages to poke his head in here or there, though.
I’d like to broach the topic of potentially offensive or hurtful lyrics in hip-hop because that’s been a topic of contention on my school’s campus as of the past few weeks. A bit of context: Princeton University’s Undergraduate Student Government (USG) hosts a day-long festival called Lawnparties every fall and every spring, in which various campus organizations invite about a dozen artists to perform on a certain part of campus known as Prospect Ave. This past iteration of Lawnparties, held on Sunday, featured Detroit rapper Big Sean as the headliner. The choice was a divisive one. Almost immediately, a small but significant portion of the student body began to protest his selection, calling on our USG to “take down Big Sean.” According to Duncan Hosie, a junior and one of the students who spearheaded the protests, he and his fellow students felt compelled to speak out because “Lawnparties should not make members of the Princeton community feel unwelcome. Big Sean’s homophobic rhetoric makes [him] feel uncomfortable [as a gay male], and his hostility to women has made many women [he has] talked to uncomfortable.” Many other students expressed similar feelings. In an eloquent op-ed for the Daily Princetonian, the school’s daily newspaper (full disclosure: I’m also an op-ed columnist for the paper), opinion editor emerita Tehila Wenger expressed disgust with USG’s Lawnparties choice. As she puts it, “The level of inurement society persuades us to accept upon ourselves is as appalling as the refrain of IDFWU. In fact, that particular kind of inurement is intimately linked to the refrain of IDFWU…I felt disappointed in Princeton’s choice and irritated that my tuition dollars would be sponsoring a performance that at best normalizes and at worst celebrates misogyny and homophobia.”
On the other side, there’s been about an equal distribution of constructively trying to explain why Big Sean is OK and laughing derisively at the protesters’ apparently obvious boneheadedness. In a separate op-ed for the Daily Princetonian, freshman columnist Julia Case-Levine argues that it’s possible to enjoy music with violently misogynistic lyrics (a la Big Sean) because the media one consumes doesn’t define that person’s beliefs. “Listening to music mindfully does not necessarily implicate us as participants in rape culture; I would go as far as saying that in consciously consuming offensive music we are extended and pushed to see what we usually get to ignore and perhaps provoked to confront our own inner inconsistencies. Some part of me is confident we can listen to sexist lyrics, push back and in doing so even solidify our commitment to equality.” Some were not so constructive with their criticism of the backlash, though. In an unfortunately (but unsurprisingly) patronizing piece for Gawker tastefully titled “Big Sean Is Turning Princeton Students Into Idiots,” writer Jordan Sargent (who reviewed Big Sean’s latest album, Dark Sky Paradise, for Pitchfork) argues that, hey, Big Sean really isn’t that bad, and people are getting up in arms for no reason whatsoever. As he puts it, “Most people who listen to rap music learn how to navigate around, and within, the misogyny and homophobia that seep into so many tracks. The people who used to want to ban rap didn’t understand it, and some 20 years later, the people who want to ban rap nowadays don’t either. Those people are Bill O’Reilly, basically, plus assorted racists who think that every single black rapper is dangerous, and apparently, hundreds of young people on the campus of Princeton University.” (His claim that “Big Sean is one of the most openly harmless rappers in recent memory.” and a “dumb goofball” doesn’t seem as compelling to me, given that the rapper has gone to court on sexual assault charges and that many of his lyrics are some of the most violently misogynistic I’ve encountered in my time listening to hip-hop, but what do I know?)
Personally, I’m not really sure what I think. On one hand, I listen to (and really like) a lot of hip-hop with pretty derogatory lyrics, and have written a few very positive reviews for albums with lyrics arguably worse than Big Sean’s. On the other hand, apart from Case-Levine’s piece, I don’t think anyone has articulated anything particularly convincing in support of Big Sean’s lyricism apart from claims of “you just don’t understand the culture” (and no, Jordan, saying people can “navigate around, and within, the misogyny and homophobia” within much of rap doesn’t particularly strike me as a reason I should support that misogyny and homophobia in the first place). I don’t like Big Sean because I think his flow is boring, his punchlines are mediocre at best, and whenever he’s featured on a track his guest verse almost without exception brings down the song’s quality, but I don’t think that his lyrics particularly help, either. I typically listen to hip-hop for the sound of the rapper’s flow and the beats, and am typically able to ignore the lyrics, but I’m not sure that’s somewhere I want to be.
So, what do you think? Does the kind of homophobia and misogyny rappers like Big Sean espouse really harm the music in and of itself? Are the students protesting the rapper misunderstanding hip-hop culture or unfairly targeting Big Sean? Sound off in the comments section below, and happy discussing!






05.04.15
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wait what
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05.05.15
SgtShock, totally agree. I think there's been a lot of good work in terms of educating people on what it means to be homophobic/misogynistic (and *spoiler alert*, a lot of us are!), but a lot of the anti-anti-Big Sean on campus has been saying that culling free speech doesn't particularly help anything. I'm also woefully unschooled on grindcore (probably rightfully so, as that kind of extreme music isn't my thing in the first place), but I'd wager that a lot of work is to be done about changing our views of female life as "sacredly fragile" and trying to give women autonomy and equity - and that might have a positive effect on grindcore as a whole too.
deathschool, I'm woefully undereducated on Lil Kim - mind sending me a couple choice cuts?
05.05.15
having said that, there's no reason he shouldn't be able to perform. you can't say it's okay for some artists to express themselves but not for others, simply because you don't agree with them; it's up to the listener to decide whether or not to take it seriously - i can say quite confidently that anybody who commits sexual assault would have done so anyway, even without hearing some buffoon who writes shitty music. it doesn't harm the music any more than 2 live crew did in the eighties or eminem did in 2000.
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idk why grown ass people still say this shit in 2015
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"Are the students protesting the rapper misunderstanding hip-hop culture"
Maybe hip hop culture isn't worth understanding when this is the shit it produces.
"On kind of a similar topic, grindcore and other forms of extreme metal has some pretty misogynistic tropes."
The difference being that you can't understand a word of what they're saying, while in hip hop the lyrics are at the forefront and are really important to the song.
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Because they're not I don't know the lyrics to almost any of the extreme metal songs I've heard and I don't care to look them up.
" what's the point in even having them that offensive, then?"
Idk maybe they think it's edgy or something, but I've never met a metal head that gave a shit about the lyrics.
05.05.15
Lyrics don't really mean shit in extreme metal yea. You can't understand the lyrics anyway even some death metal albums I've heard dozens of times I don't know any of the lyrics. The reason they're gory etc. is because it matches the violent/aggressive/scary/gory nature of the music and instruments, reading up on the lyrics can also aid in trying to interpret how the artist chose the direction for the song. Even if lyrics are morbid it also doesn't mean that can't be extremely well written check out Pig Destroyer's Terrifyer for example.
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what difference does it make whether or not you can hear/understand the lyrics? and since when are lyrics important to your average Big Sean track?
"You can't understand the lyrics anyway even some death metal albums I've heard dozens of times I don't know any of the lyrics. The reason they're gory etc. is because it matches the violent/aggressive/scary/gory nature of the music and instruments, reading up on the lyrics can also aid in trying to interpret how the artist chose the direction for the song"
see dude, i just don't understand this line of reasoning or at the very least why it's used to excuse extreme metal and simultaneously criticize hip-hop either they're both wrong, or they both don't matter...you can't pick one or the other. this isn't aimed at you in particular, but it's a sentiment i've noticed on this site. extreme metal lyrics can be misogynist violent, blasphemous, racist, homophobic etc (to a degree that's on a completely different planet to the worst of what you can find in hip-hop),. but it's 'all part of the imagery' or 'you can't hear em anyway'. but big sean singing "i dont fuck with u stupid ass ho" is awful gets us all in our feelings and we should boycott him*. the cognitive dissonance is real yo
*disclaimer: i'm not excusing big sean or his lyrics, just pointing out a double standard
05.05.15
rappers are THUGS
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I don't really know what to say about the whole misogyny and homophobia in rap music tbh. I mean, it's such a big part of rap culture, I can't really see it ever changing. It's probably a bit unfair to single out rap (although it is the most visible) because these are widespread issues that go far beyond the realm music.
I do like Julia Case-Levine's viewpoint that it’s possible to enjoy music with violently misogynistic lyrics because the media one consumes doesn’t define that person’s beliefs. That's a great viewpoint and one that I share too. I actually have a friend who's a pretty strong feminist who adores listening to hip-hop/R&B so I guess both sides can co-exist.
05.05.15
Jack...relax
Get busy with the facts
No zodiacs or almanacs
No maniacs in polyester slacks
Just the facts
Gonna kick some gluteus max
It's a parallax...you dig?
You move around
The small gets big
It's a rig
It's action...reaction
Random interaction
So who's afraid
Of a little abstraction?
Can't get no satisfaction
From the facts?
You better run, homeboy
A fact's a fact
From Nome to Rome, boy
What's the deal?
Spin the wheel
If the dice are hot...take a shot
Play your cards. Show us what you got
What you're holding
If the cards are cold
Don't go folding
Lady Luck is golden
She favors the bold
That's cold
Stop throwing stones
The night has a thousand saxophones
So get out there and rock
And roll the bones
Get busy!
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and i agree with the sentiment of taking the music in and willfully overlooking what the lyrics may suggest. i love the bleeding but am not a serial killer, just like i love kool g rap but am not a misogynist
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I would tend to agree with those (including Case-Levine) who are arguing that the music you consume doesn't define your own beliefs, and it's possible to really enjoy pretty violent lyricism for either its shock value or for non-lyrical qualities (for example, I'm listening to Danny Brown right now and there's so much more to him than his lyrics). I think saying "you can't understand what they're saying" with respect to grindcore is a little bit of a cop-out, as it doesn't excuse the content, but hip-hop is different than grindcore in that it has a lot more mainstream reach and is more ingrained in our culture than the latter. It's one thing for the probably thousands to hundreds of thousands of people worldwide to listen to pornogrind and excuse (and unconsciously internalize) the lyrics, but it's another thing altogether for the billions of people worldwide who listen to hip-hop to do the same. That doesn't excuse either, obviously, but I would argue that hip-hop's greater reach (I would say ubiquity) allows it to be subject to sharper criticism because there are more critics who listen to it.
That being said, just because one is "bigger" than the other doesn't mean one's sexism is OK while the other isn't. Ideally, no sexism would be OK, but I don't think saying bands don't "give a shit" about their lyrics is any excuse - even if they aren't to one listener, lyrics could be important to someone else. And the argument that the kind of misogyny/homophobia in these lyrics inures us as listeners to the more toxic misogyny/homophobia which manifests itself in real life as opposed to in songs/videos/performances is a pretty compelling one, I think. As we get used to misogyny in pop culture, we become less likely to challenge it in our society simply because we subconsciously assume it's the norm.
Davey, I've got eyes all around the world ;)
PappyMason, here's the full lineup: http://i.imgur.com/N0FLvkZ.png
05.05.15
"Because they're not I don't know the lyrics to almost any of the extreme metal songs I've heard and I don't care to look them up."
I'd like to say that that would just be titan's personal preference. he doesn't care for extreme metal lyrics so he doesn't pay attention to them. Lyrics are important in any music with lyrics imo. Rap might put more emphasis on them because it's just the vocals and a beat whereas extreme music generally might have a bit more going on in the mix but I would never say they're unimportant unless you just don't care to look at them
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The difference is you guys say shit like this, "I typically listen to hip-hop for the sound of the rapper’s flow and the beats, and am typically able to ignore the lyrics"
You subconsciously pick up on the lyrics because they are arguably the most noticeably thing about the song. Most hip hop focuses on the rappers voice then the actual music so it's the thing you pick up on the most, and you can understand every word of what he says. I don't think it's good to tune out lyrics because you don't like them because you're still hearing it.
But even if I looked up the lyrics to a really offense extreme metal song I wouldn't remember them the next day. It's not like I would know the lyrics and subconsciously be picking up on them every time I hear the song like you would with hip hop.
Now some people might learn the lyrics to a song that's really bad so they can actually understand it, but I don't think that is common, and it doesn't affect mos the scene (hate using that word) were hip hop lyrics probably, on some level, effect everyone that hears it.
05.05.15
Clearly there's a huge difference because the issue wouldn't even be addressed by the campus if it was some extreme metal band coming to campus.
05.05.15
Also, most people don't like being put in a box. It's easy to say "The music and lyrics I listen to don't define me". The clincher in a lot of these arguments is to what degree the media the public consumes actually influences them. I would argue the patriarchal narrative is perpetuated in some part by the media and that does include, to a degree, music. But then again, I'm a sociology grad student and they always spin things to a more liberal side.
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not long is how long that this rhyme took me
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05.06.15
See, if that ever happened (which it won't haha), I'd guess that many people, not knowing anything about the band invited, would look up lyrics and immediately start a similar protest. Lyrics glorifying (if that's the right word) assault against women are especially touchy on a campus under investigation for Title IX violations and with a less-than-savory record for parties in which men respect women's boundaries. I'd say you might be right, but knowing a lot of the activism which goes on here I'm not sure that context would treat grindcore lyrics the same way you would.
SgtShock, I fully agree with your sentiment - it's indeed tough to know how much we can totally ignore the messages of songs (whether explicit or implicit), as Wenger pointed out in her editorial. I think one of the most common defenses of Big Sean I've heard is that "misogyny sells" - he's famous not because of what he's done, per se, but because people in power have heard what he's done and have pushed that to the world at large. I've also only taken one sociology class in college so far, though, so you probably know more about this kind of delicate balance than I do haha.
Rosa, I think that your point is a fair one - I'm pretty desensitized to a lot of the misogyny/homophobia in a lot of rap at this point (of course, it helps that I'm straight and male). However, I don't know if that's what's necessarily good. I'd recommend checking out Tehila Wenger's column I linked to in the original post (about midway down the second paragraph), as she talks about why that kind of attitude is disgusting to her because of how pervasive it is. You're not alone in that sentiment, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a sentiment we should hold.
Treb, we definitely should have gotten you to perform at Lawnparties haha
05.06.15
i mean, they got chingy up there. dude's last hit was in like 2006
05.06.15
Okay I didn't really think of that, but if you showed the wrong person some really offensive rap song they would be offended. If you showed the same person a even more offensive gridncore song they would be like "What the hell is this crap? You call that music, it's just noise."
That's the difference that makes me dislike hip hop lyrics and not care about metal lyrics.
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05.07.15
That's the difference that makes me dislike hip hop lyrics and not care about metal lyrics."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnKWfeRzHTc
this isn't even music tbh, so i don't care about the lyrics
05.07.15
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it's literally the same exact song, just with different instruments and vocalization techniques
05.07.15
Yeah it's the same song but if you don't know what he's saying then what difference does it make?
People that defend those lyrics in the firs place say stuff like, "I just listen to the flow, I don't care what he's saying." I would say something similar about metal. The difference is even if I was paying attention to the vocals I wouldn't know what's going on, while if I paid attention to the vocals in hip hop I would know what he's saying.
So unless you're also condemning hip hop I essentially am using the same argument you use to justify bad lyrics, except it makes more sense when talking about metal. Maybe ignorance is bliss with lyrics, but it's impossible to be blissfully ignorant of hip hop lyrics
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Good luck finding better lyrics
05.07.15
I agree, I can understand some of it no problem, but most of it I don't have an idea what they're saying.
' they're still there and you can still search for them if you want"
I would say there's a big difference in between having to looking up lyrics because you couldn't hear them in the first place and constantly being able to understand the lyrics at all times.
"you can still ignore completely clear and obvious lyrics"
Right, but a small part of you always is picking up on the lyrics and the meaning, is that a big deal? Maybe not, but it could be a big deal.
In the end everything hip hop lyrics are often really annoying to me while metal lyrics are pretty much meaningless to me and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
05.07.15
Good luck finding better lyrics"
you serious? album is insane but luck is the last thing i need if i want to find better lyrics
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I bomb atomically
Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries
Lyrically perform armed robbery
Flee with the lottery, possibly they spotted me
Battle-scarred Shogun, explosion when my pen hits
Tremendous, ultra-violet shine blind forensics
I inspect you, through the future see millennium
Killer Bees sold fifty gold, sixty platinum
Not to be a complete tokenist, but could you not be a such a buster?
05.08.15
tbh
05.08.15
In some cases (especially in older rap such as Nas, 2pac, etc.) rap has lyrics that are well written and have actual meaning behind them beyond drugs, money, and bitches.
Modern day rappers like Lil Wayne, Nicki Minaj, etc. seem to be orbiting around the same trite and ridiculous lyrics that never deviate from themes that just make you look like a jackass.
05.08.15
Hard to find good lyricism in today's hip-hop artists, guys like Joey Bada$$, Chance, Kendrick, maybe Logic from his Young Sinatra days, and that's pretty much it. Open to any suggestions tho for artists who deliver solid lyricism today
05.08.15
Yeah I never really liked rap in the first place, but I can't stand any modern stuff I've heard
05.08.15
@titanslayer/Keyblade convo: I find myself thinking that if it's unacceptable in one genre on principle, it's probably unacceptable in other genres too. In my experience (and I may be wrong), extreme metal hasn't been subjected to the same kind of feminist critique as a lot of hip-hop has, in part because it's not as central to our pop culture right now and in part because (from what I've experienced) it's far more male-dominated than hip-hop and so there hasn't been as much push-back. That said, I'm not sure it's not worth taking a red pen to some of those lyrics all the same.
@rosa, yeah I totally feel you. I find myself having a tough time caring about a lot of these issues in part because they're so damn exhausting, and if I'm on guard and 100% fighting for total equality at all times I wouldn't be able to survive for too long. Especially since I'm a straight man, a lot of this doesn't affect me directly (like you said), and so I can have a lot of trouble continuing to muster energy for this. That said, I think that every so often it's worth taking a look at that attitude I hold and saying "hey, this might be worth a change" and switch up the way I'm acting even just slightly in the hopes of influencing others positively as well. It's pretty exhausting, sure, but sometimes it feels good to be tired, you know?
@ascension: you're not listening to the right Nicki then ;)
05.08.15
05.08.15
I agree that it doesn't matter what genre the lyrics are in the are still shitty and offensive. But for the same reason you tolerate it in hip hop " I typically listen to hip-hop for the sound of the rapper’s flow and the beats, and am typically able to ignore the lyrics, but I’m not sure that’s somewhere I want to be" I generally don't have a problem with it in metal. It's much harder for me to do this when listening to hip hop though. Actually it's the main reason I don't listen to much punk anymore. I love the sound of punk but dislike a lot of the political ideas and beliefs typical in the genre.
"I’m not sure that’s somewhere I want to be" I totally get where you're coming from here because I wrestled with this a lot with punk, but I don't find myself having the same problem with metal, even though it arguably has the worst lyrics of any genre. I think not being able to understand the lyrics in first place makes a huge difference because they are much easier to ignore.
Does that make writing violent, misogynistic, homophobic, or what have you lyrics okay? Probably not , but it really doesn't affect my enjoyment of the music.
05.08.15
Re: Question #1 - Personally, as I said in Kyle's blog as well, I think that everyone has a line where lyrics cross from becoming acceptable to unacceptable. I can't be bothered listening to this dude, so I won't comment on him personally. But when the line is crossed, I just cringe and try to move on... Unless the line is constantly crossed on a song/LP. Then I just move on.
Re: Question #2 - The whole playing at your uni discussion is another matter. While the students should be old enough to discern where that aforementioned line is, this type of communal event should make all students feel welcome. Kinda surprised he was booked for such a show if he is anywhere near as homophobic and misogynistic as suggested.
05.09.15
05.09.15
That would be fine if rap wasn't so centered around the lyrics.
I can listen to Jesus' Tod by Burzum and not be bothered because I like the song musically, though the lyrics go against my religious convictions.
Rap is so centered around the lyrics that they're impossible to avoid for me.
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/thread
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but in case you ever hear a big sean joint in the club, make it a point to not dance and show everybody how offended you are by lyrics you're not meant to take seriously
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgPcXeO4zn0
05.11.15
It's this kind of protectionism that makes people unable to think for theirselves in the first place
05.11.15
What the fuck is your issue?
I'm not offended in the slightest by rap. I just find the lyrics in most of it to be stupid and more poorly written than attack attack debut. I find that rap is centered around the beat to keep time and rhythm, and then the lyrics as all the rest. That's not an opinion, it's an established fact unless you're a dumbass that just foucuses on the retarted beat.
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dudes out here with literally 95%+ metal/post-hardcore in their piechart tryna tell me about hip-hop. scene kids plz
05.11.15
will try to get to other commenters soon!
05.11.15
This is so fucking stupid. With that logic I can say anything I want no matter how mean spirited it is and it's the other persons fault if they take it to heart.
05.11.15
Absolutely I don't think anyone hear is saying that the lyrics should be censored, just that we don't want to support them, which is exercising our freedom of speech.
" just because you see the lyrics as the focal point of rap does not mean it is the definitive focal point for all people."
It's the focal point for a lot of people though. Just because you don't care about them doesn't invalid other people caring about them.
"An impossibility to avoid lyrics is not the issue of the artist but an issue of the listener, and hence, if the listener makes issue of something such as this, one cannot but ask, should we suppress the artist, who expresses his emotion and thoughts in the form of art because certain people find it's themes disagreeable, or should we instead redirect the offended, tell them to seek other forms of musical enjoyment, that don't offend them and allow all artists the ability to express freely as they wish?"
Yeah no one is forcing anyone to listen to hip hop, but there is a legitimate concern when you don't want to support something and your school is supporting it. Don't you think they should have the right to ask the school to support something else, even if you don't see the problem? I don't think anyone here want's censored music, we just don't want to support music that we, personally, find offensive.
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sure if you do that the other party is just as free to give you a middle finger and never talk to you again
I'm not defending artists who write offensive lyrics, I'm just saying they exist and if you find them offensive you're free to refuse to listen to their music, talk shit about them on music websites and tell your friends they suck
05.11.15
That's pretty much what the uni is doing atm though, they are not trying to cencor Big Sean from making music, but just rejecting him for playing in THEIR event, when a lot of thei students are, in a way, giving him the middle. Fair game imo
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I agree with that, but you can't say it's the listeners fault if they are insulted.
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