Who would have thought that Davey would be daft enough to give the reigns of his fledgling series of serious musical business to such a close-minded metalhead as myself? This is, after all, the 6th iteration of this column – a number that is damn good for us sometimes lethargic and apathetic staff members, but I’m here to show you that it’s not just Davey who has a desire to generate good discussion. Let’s not dwell on the who and the what, though, since before Davey changes his mind and decides that this guest appearance was a terrible idea indeed, I have a few opinionated…erm… opinions to share with you all. Actually, I’m more looking for your vehement disagreement or even a casual word or two about an over-arching topic that has come up many times around not only this site’s review threads, but also has permeated the world of popular music and underground scenes alike.
Lyrics are most certainly their own form of poetry, and like poetry the words contained in a song’s lyrics are simply the metaphorical tip of the iceberg in terms of what the artist is really trying to say. On occasion, things are right there for all to see, but more often than not the true meaning of a song can be buried beneath layers of metaphor. Could it be, then, that the meaning of a song and the attitudes that meaning projects onto the artist be that of a more… unsavory nature? Moreover, can this sometimes morally objectionable material be discarded as simply fodder meant to garner attention or generate a buzz? Is the person behind the pen simply practicing some sort of subversion wherein they try to make the taboo subject matter of their lyrics as mainstream and acceptable as some of the music these artists create?
Sure, the extreme attitudes taken by some artists are not necessarily held high in the world’s spotlight, but even the attitudes of underground metal bands like Arghoslent, M8L8TH, Graveland, and many others in the NS scene make waves among the larger audience of extreme metal enthusiasts. Even the venerable black metal legends Darkthrone emblazoned the slogan Norsk Arisk Black Metal (“Norwegian Aryan Black Metal”) on the back of their seminal album Transilvanian Hunger. Rampant racism and xenophobia, anti-Semitism, unbridled support of extreme-right wing politics, calls for genocide – these are all themes explored in vivid detail in the imagery and lyrics of these bands, but do we have a moral obligation to boycott their music based on the themes behind it? Similarly, on a broader world stage, it is no secret that Eminem reveled in the explicit murder fantasy of “Kim”, or that pop stars like Robin Thicke spew misogyny from every crevice in tracks like “Blurred Lines”. Even mainstream rap culture has long been a proponent for serious, illegal drug use and trafficking, but to many themes such as these hardly an eye is bat in their direction.
That begs the question of where we draw the line. There is a vocal group who detest the senseless hatred of NSBM or other metal bands in the thematic extremities of a genre already classified as extreme metal, but there is little in the way of public outcry towards Snoop Dogg’s ceaseless promoting of what is, in nearly all parts of the world, a drug that is quite simply illegal. There is no legion of angered pop or hip-hop fans banging at the door of LMFAO for their portrayal of women as inferior play-things that exist only to please men, or for their similarly explicit support of drug use. How is this kind of thing OK for children and adults to consume every time a radio is within earshot, yet we hide our children and avert our own gaze when the themes shift towards Nazism or even Eminem’s earnest advice to Grady in “Guilty Conscience” to murder his cheating wife and kidnap his child, or for Stan to rape a roofied 15 year old girl a few verses earlier. Surely no sane person would promote such acts, so why is it that we can promote the song as a whole when its entire focus is fixated on human depravity?
Should there be a place where we define how far is too far? Should we be able to appreciate music as art without taking to heart the message that lurks beneath the instruments? Would we be indirectly supporting the ideology of the artist if we were to just praise the music while ignoring the message? How far can lyrics go before they are at the point where public outcry occurs? Will that bar change to be more lenient or stringent as time goes on?
Let’s discuss, and see what sense and clarity we can bring to such an opaque, amorphous barrier.
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thats an interesting point seeming as i would never support or endorse a politican or public figure that held extreme right wing views (that i disagree with) but i would buy the cd, merch or go to the show an exteme right wing band and would support them and look forward to their next release if i was a fan of their music. basically i exempt artists from the same standards i hold other people to.
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Now that i think about it, i listen to very little political music that doesnt already fit in with my own beliefs (a lot of left wing hardcore basically). Right Wing Extreme Black metal is a pretty unknown genre to me so it will be interesting to see if i can find much value in the lyrics.
03.10.15
Listening to music with messages of hatred and saying you like the tunes but not the intentions is doing something very similar. This is not just a right-wing musical phenomenon either, I'd be willing to make a case about many left-wing bands (at least the ones I can think of) that can be seen in the same light as the right-wing ones, albeit not with the same subject matter.
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In this sense, i could value a black metal song that espouses views opposite to mine simply because i think the song is compositionaly tight
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"I’ve clearly stated that Taake is certainly not a political nazi-band, yet some people seem to still insist that we are... I do realize that it is rather unforgivable to display a swastika in Germany, yes. On the other hand I strongly feel that Black Metal bands should allow themselves to use any kind of destructive/negative symbolism, as the basis of this expression is above all: Evil! Black Metal is still not, and should never become, harmless like all other styles of housebroke metal. Frankly, I find it preposterous that we get away with lyrics about murder, torture, rape, necrophilia and suicide, but get boycotted for wearing a symbol (which, by the way, has nothing to do with the band’s concept) on one single occasion. A part of our mission is to invoke negative feelings, so I found it quite appropriate to remind our German audience of their biggest shame"
The point I wanted to make with this is that for a lot of black metal artists, the music is supposed to be harmful, so I can understand it being disparaged. Having said that, I enjoy listening to black metal as an alternative, darker form of entertainment in the same way that I enjoy watching House of Cards twisted political maneuvers more than The West Wing's positive portrayal of camaraderie in the political world.
To an extent, hip-hop is exempt from this due to its accessibility. The negative symbolism is popularly coated with sugary melodies and addictive beats that lure more people than the lyrical content does. Black Metal is raw and unfiltered by comparison, which pushes a lot of people away and raises red flags. It's like comparing an honest, filthy politician with one who dresses their horrible ideas up in purple prose to make it easier to swallow; one is obviously going to be more socially acceptable than the other.
To name the obvious name, it gives some food for thought for anyone who bought a Burzum album in his heyday. I'd have loved to see him release more bm classics, and would spend money to support him in doing so, but Varg is also the scum of the earth. At what point do you place your own enjoyment above doing genuine damage to others? - paying for his matches and gasoline so to speak.
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That begs the question as to why accessibility grants an exception when you have two artists - one hip-hop, one metal - both talking about murder in very graphic detail. Why should there be that double standard? I agree with you when you say the consumer has some responsibility, and obviously the fact that murder spoken about by a rapper is tragic yet murder spoken about by a metalhead is disturbing sheds some light into where that sentiment lies.
"It's interesting because it seems to be nearly the opposite when it comes to other forms of entertainment, like cinema."
This is an extremely interesting point that I had not thought of before. We show decapitations on television yet we cannot show a bare breast without causing uproar - why is music the opposite? Could it be because visual exposure to violence desensitizes us yet the images conjured in our imaginations by lyrics are far more unsettling?
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Yet the lyrics to hip hop are often right there in your face and easy to understand. With metal oftentimes they can be very hard to understand due to the vocal style. So if you know a band has a reputation for offensive/racist/violent/whatever lyrics you can easily choose to ignore it by not looking them up and enjoy the music for the music.
03.11.15
But when it all comes down to it, I eventually learned that music is just music. Its a collection of sounds that come together to create an end product that people enjoy as a passion.Through my time on the site, I learned to ignore the message the message or artist behind the music and enjoy what I can out of it. How do think I can get myself through a Burzum album? I may think what Varg believes in is wrong in every way, but in the end its just music.
Yet I do have a few execeptions like Argoslent and Grand Belial's Key which cross the line of what I can accept because they essential are wishing death to me.
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but why take it personally?
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Being a Jew and a regular listener of black metal is kinda tough. You gotta be careful of what you listen to in order not to get offended. Kinda tough having certain bands like early Nokturnal Mortum and GBK that are off limits personally for me. But as long as the artist never lets their agenda seep into the music they write, im perfectly fine with it.
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I really think it comes from the fact, however, that a good majority of people disregard what the song is speaking lyrically, and more so what it is conveying sonically. People can bypass lyrics, but it's much harder to bypass the tune. This is ironic though, as vocals do tend to be a standout part of a song. How many instrumental artists do you hear on popular radio?
03.11.15
How many times did I hear people complain about not understanding lyrics in metal only to have them fall in love with Gangnam Style smh
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I'm not correlating them, I'm simply pointing out that the former is more acceptable while the latter is not, and I'm asking for discussion on where that line should be drawn where something is OK or not.
03.11.15
Couldn't agree more.
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"Words like hipster, or emo are used unjustifiably at points in negative context; and for what? I never fully understood why someone would want to insult somebody else for actively seeking out music they would like to enjoy, as opposed to listening to something so much on the radio that it just ends up being something they say they like because they know the words. "
I know this is tangential at best to the topic being discussed in this thread (and it's definitely a very interesting one that I wouldn't want to derail), but I'd like to point something out here. The word "hipster", despite having lost much of its meaning as of late, is derogatory for a good reason in my opinion. More often than not it doesn't represent "somebody [...] actively seeking out music they would like to enjoy", but rather a bunch of tryhard pseudo-intellectual teenagers/20-somethings who want nothing more than to feel to superior to their peers and appear cultured and deep. People who, more often than not, seem to care more about how well known an artist or band is, rather than the actual music itself. And ironically enough, it's usually people who just discovered pitchfork/rym/[insert popular music website here] for the first time, read lists of "greatest albums of all time" and buy into that without necessarily giving that music the actual listens required to fully understand it. The same kind of people who might think bands like Tool, Neutral Milk Hotel and Porcupine Tree (just examples, not hating here) are "underground" or "obscure".
And again, lately it seems that this word's thrown around as a general insult, but in my experience there are far too many people such as the ones I described above, to warrant it being a derogatory term to begin with.
Sorry for the derail, but I really felt like chiming in on this one.
03.12.15
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I can fully comprehend your argument, parksungjoon. But when I, as a serious music enthusiast, musician, and songwriter am called a hipster in a negative context because someone asks me some of my favourite artists and they have no idea of the bands/artists I'm listing off, it's pretty frustrating. I'm not trying to be "a hipster." I'm simply doing what I've always been doing. Searching out music that inspires me and moves me.
I know the exact type of persons you speak of when you say "a bunch of tryhard pseudo-intellectual teenagers/20-somethings who want nothing more than to feel to superior to their peers and appear cultured and deep," and they really put a bad name to those who are genuinely interested in specific facets of art and/or culture. It's just extremely aggravating experiencing it myself, and then, as a teacher, seeing other kids have to try and defend themselves for listening to music that is original, thought-provoking, emotive... as opposed to the whatever the current music trends might include.
03.13.15
I don't necessarily think unethical/unpleasant content is something that most people sit down and ponder. I don't really pass judgement on the darker themes that keep popping up through a lot of the music I listen to - violence and nasty relationships spring to mind - unless I'm feeling that the artist is dealing with them in an especially superficial or irresponsible way.
In my experience I tend to enjoy bands a lot more if I can get behind their 'message' anyway.
03.13.15
Yeah I get you man. (more on this in your shoutbox ^^)
On the actual topic at hand, I've been thinking more about this lately. I'll go on record and say that, like a good amount of metal fans on this site, I too am in the situation where I enjoy the music of bands like Arghoslent, GBK, Burzum etc. while at the same time distancing myself from the views of the people behind the music.
Now normally I might have said something like "it's probably a good idea to try to separate the art itself (or the product, if you want to look at it that way) from the people creating it", but that becomes increasingly difficult as those views are integrated into the lyrics and actively promoted by the band and tied to their public image."
And that's probably the kind of justification that most of us normally come up with in this situation. But let's play devil's advocate here for a minute. Suppose there was a tumblrcore band that somehow, through some almost impossible coincidence, happened to make really good music. Now let's say their lyrics involve nothing more than "males are subhuman tripe and deserve to die". Not in a tongue-in-cheek, for-shits-and-giggles, Carnivore - Male Supremacy (reversed I guess) kind of way, but about as sincere and convinced as these fucktards can be.
So I pose two questions:
1. Is this necessarily that much different from your average white supremacist metal band?
2. How many here would listen to what I described above in good faith, not just as a joke or "ironically"? Now, I'm not asking whether or not you'd get offended, because I personally wouldn't take offense to something as out-of-left-field as that, but at the same time I think I wouldn't be able to support a band that is not only comprised of such lunatic idiots, but also unabashedly promotes that kind of lunacy and idiocy to others through their lyrics and public image.
I don't know, maybe my comparison is a little bit of a stretch (I'm sure if this were Youtube comments someone would already be crucifying me like "how dare u compare vark vikernes the most intelligent musician who ever lived to tumblr") but regardless it's an interesting point of view to consider.
03.14.15
1. No, it could all be considered hate speech, but there would undoubtedly be more of a focus on lyrical content than white supremacists because, in terms of internet audience at least, the type of lyrics you discuss would be directed toward the vast majority of internet denizens. I think there would be a massive outcry even though the concept is fundamentally the same if they were a white supremacist band, which is unfortunate and wrong but I think is how it would be.
2. Almost none would listen seriously, because there are few here who would be exempt from their scope of hatred given that most of us are young white males.
Again, hate speech is hate speech, it is just that unfortunately due to the nature of who it is directed at some hate speech gets more attention simply due to the size of scope of the group it is targeted at.
03.14.15
It definitely comes down to the individual, that's for certain. And we all have our lines at different places to be crossed. Without ignoring myself specifically & concentrating on the public as a whole, I think the major consideration on the subject is age. Without generalising, if one is over, say, 21 or 23, they should be able to discern right from wrong, ignore lyrics if they want to, etc...
And without touching on the "I can't understand metal vocals" reasoning, I think this is where the pop debate is probably more important. It's aimed at teenagers, who are more prone to peer group pressure & generally not having the life lessons to decide right from wrong. Ke$ha was my pet hate. Her music is aimed at, say, 15 year olds, and how the hell could anyone miss that she was, what was it, drinking a bottle of Jack for breakfast. Ugh.
If I was to point the finger at myself a little, I think you've hit the nail on the head with your choice of video here: Eminem. He was fairly universal with his targets, I guess... But because I enjoyed most of his early stuff, I looked past the lyrics... Which, on reflection, come very close to crossing the line.
03.14.15
Now that I think about it, I guess I do use different levels of scrutiny for different lyrical topics like the Supreme Court does based on whether things like race or gender are involved. Just a random thought to look into, are there specific topics that you guys have stricter scrutiny for?
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It's tiresome to see yet another where do we draw the line question when addressing art. I've yet to see someone hurt from the pen, visuals or sound. Art is not mandatory. You don't find it satisfactory, you move on. But as we've seen these days there are groups of individuals who rather than doing that demand that it changes to suit them.
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I got introduced to Joel Peter-Witkin's photographs (your profile pic right?) for an art course a few years back but they still send shivers down my spine. I suppose that the power of the work is from being so transgressive and shocking.
Surely though, anyone can critique art? What if I thought an artist was using some nasty subject matter as a gimmick to go with say, catchy choruses / brutal breakdowns and a 'tough guy' image? Why not criticise the art in this case for being superficial or trivialising some serious topics? What are you saying is so wrong about taking a stand against an artist if I believe they've got unethical/despicable messages underlying the presentation?
But yeah, I'm a feeble philosopher, a worse artist and probably a hypocrite so idek.
03.14.15
Disagree, especially in regards to writing. It could very easily be argued that Karl Marx indirectly signed the death warrant for millions when he wrote and Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto. As I said, how these things cause damage is far from direct, but they DO certainly play a role in influencing people who are capable of doing these things. It is naive to say that propaganda - which is what this amounts to - is completely ineffective and never hurt anyone because it is propaganda in a voluntary form where people don't have to read it - and many don't. What you're missing is the fact that people who are sympathetic with their message DO consume it, and believe it, and take its ideals to heart, and there are without doubt those among that group who will act on those messages in ways that hurt others.
Does art hurt? Not in the way you're thinking, but it has the capacity to cause immeasurable amounts of damage.
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Take a tragedy like Shakespeare's Othello, where (spoiler alert, omg) racism, murder and betrayal most foul abound. As I understand it, most of the 'message' behind that piece of art was a meditation on jealousy and its ability to ruin pretty much everybody it touches. Sure, there are some really grim themes in there and a good amount of violence, sociopaths and rated-M-for-Mature content but reading it’s not really going to warp anyone’s brain. Apart from the kids who have to study it in English class ofc.
Personally, I see a lot of music as running in that vein. There’s problematic (from a moralistic point of view) content but not so much ‘propaganda’. Would you agree that there is a distinction between music/art with questionable lyrical content (e.g. “put my fist in her like a civil rights sign,”) and that which is a vehicle for the artist’s beliefs (I’m thinking of Gorgoroth and that sort of satanic-themed, anti-religious direction)?
Does that make sense?
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We take a very learned approach here in Sputnik's weekly discussion columns.
And I do not think that morality necessarily has to be connected with religion so it can have some place in our lives regardless of whether we are religious or not. I am not religious, yet I feel strong moral obligations toward things based on my own perceptions of right and wrong. Also, support for a band does not always mean monetary support. By us, say, going on a website like this and talking about a band like Arghoslent we are bringing awareness to their music and, inevitably, their lyrics and what they are promoting. Just by discussing them we are giving them a form of support.
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Then again, I'm a first-year college student who's spouting philosophical shit I don't know much about, so the hell do I know :P
03.15.15
‘Any publicity is good publicity’ is wrong in this case I think. I'd say that awareness of - and thereby having people critically thinking about - the lyrics and aims of the artist is overwhelmingly a good thing. Responsible people can pass their own judgement on the art.
You can’t make an informed choice though, if you’ve never thought to read up on what exactly ‘Norsk Arisk Black Metal’ actually stands for or you’ve been going along with the music without seriously questioning what the underlying concept’s moral implications are.
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Crysis, us exposing Arghoslent to more people(as little as that is) might bring them more listeners and this might not be something that you want to happen but it will also put the band under more critique and scrutiny. I don't see how that matters. We cannot censor thoughts, it is much better for them to be out in the open where we can acknowledge them and be aware.
Now I value personal freedom above all else. For a conscious being with will, being able to exercise it is the most important need/right. Without it I see no point. It feels good, you feel alive. So unless that comes at the expense of someone else's wellbeing (same with what I've said previously - you don't want to be hurt yourself and that would interfere with society's functionality) you should be able to do anything, saying that the jews are the scum of the earth included. If getting our sensibilities offended and our feelings hurt was damaging we'd all be dead or in prison.
I won't be posting anymore because I'm trying to keep my 666 comments and ratings number for something later. That was a good discussion.. on sputnik. Rare shit.
03.15.15
Hahaha awesome, no worries. Thank you for your contributions to the thread as it definitely sparked good discussion. I want to just stress again that I agree with you that personal freedom is critically important, and I am not in any way, shape, or form advocating for censorship or saying that these bands should not be able to say what they want.
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Great read, guys!
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mohani lagla hai
mohani lagla hai
mohani lagla hai