Gyromania
12.14.20 | feel free to share any game recs you think i'd like and drop your personal picks for goty |
Sharenge
12.14.20 | only 2020 games I think I've played this year are Final Fantasy VII Remake and Fall Guys
FFVII:Remake was a waste of money; I had to force myself to finish it and don't see myself ever looking back - stick with the original
Fall Guys is great, though I've spent a bit more time with it and played a bit more competitively than I imagine most people will... been a few weeks since I've booted it up need to get my PSPlus turned back on and get back in there I'm sure they've added/tweaked maps
bought Ghost of Tsushima but haven't played it yet... but I'm also sitting on Red Dead Redemption 2... that fucking Final Fantasy VII remake, man mistakes were made |
Deathconscious
12.14.20 | "I lost a few close friends this year due to my views on BLM and my generally confrontational demeanor."
Nice, your (former) friends sound cool. |
hal1ax
12.14.20 | sorry about your friends. passionate ideas and beliefs are good but intransigence is not. i'm glad you were able to grow your views from some shitty situations and are trying to make the best of it. been there. |
Trebor.
12.14.20 | Hades is by far the best game of the year |
porcupinetheater
12.14.20 | Can you introduce me to your ex friends? They seem worth knowing |
unclereich
12.14.20 | There's a fine line between being passionate and being unreasonable. Most people today are simply unreasonable. |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | “Nice, your (former) friends sound cool.“
[2] |
Relinquished
12.14.20 | aint self-awareness just grand
what hal said and I know where you’re coming from. I’m not a dickhead but it’s been weird politically overall with most people I know. |
unclereich
12.14.20 | I have a few best friends left. Anyone who has left over something as trivial as politics wasnt a real friend anyway. People who will help you move or be there for you when you have gotten your heart broken by the same guy or gal for the 100th time aren't going to abandon you over politics. You'll argue sure but not stop being friends. |
Gameofmetal
12.14.20 | Good for you on the self-reflection stuff. Big agree that TLOU2 is a very good game |
porcupinetheater
12.14.20 | Thinking politics are trivial to a relationship is such a white fucking perspective |
Gameofmetal
12.14.20 | It is yeah. Politics for some people is life-changing. |
Ryus
12.14.20 | if you dont support my god-given right to be a furry i will shut you out of my damn life |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | Yup
God damnit ryus |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | opinions |
MillionDead
12.14.20 | [2] @ porc Idk, politics have a lot to do with people's lives. Imagine you were friends with an illegal immigrant and were like "Build a wall!" lmao
But anyways, I know we got into it about this exact shit, but kudos to you, Gyro, for your self reflection and growth and I hope you can only move forward with time. |
Sharenge
12.14.20 | lol wtf you are insane how did he trash BLM? if you didn't already know what his opinions on the matter are, there is absolutely no way to tell what side of the issue he stands on from this post |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | hmm |
unclereich
12.14.20 | Ending relationships over politics is extremely white[2] |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | hmmmmm |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | Politics are intrinsically tied to morals, morals decide whether you like people or not |
Gyromania
12.14.20 | "He felt the need to trash BLM (subtly) in a list about video games. I’m sure his opinions are a huge red flag to people."
Absolutely was not trying to trash BLM. The complete opposite, in fact.
Anyway, thanks for the words of encouragement, gents. I appreciate it. |
unclereich
12.14.20 | My friend didnt post a black square on his insta I unfollowed him ama |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | it’s not like people are ending relationships over soft drink size laws. It’s the big stuff. |
Sharenge
12.14.20 | I don't like people |
BlondeGuardian
12.14.20 | You're no fun anymore |
MillionDead
12.14.20 | @reich: It depends on the politics. If we disagree on taxes or how hands off/on the government should be, that's one thing. But say someone thinks there's objectively nothing wrong with the prison industry and every US military act is perfectly justified, they start sounding a lot like a person I don't wanna be around lol |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | So you DO support BLM and the friends you left behind DON’T? If that’s true I will delete every single one of my comments and apologize. |
Sharenge
12.14.20 | SILENCE IS VIOLENCE BUT LOOTING IS NOT!!! |
MillionDead
12.14.20 | He definitely didn't support BLM at the time, but we're also all allowed to grow and learn. |
Gyromania
12.14.20 | i didn't support BLM, I do now. I didn't leave friends behind, they left me. |
normaloctagon
12.14.20 | change = awareness + new action
I admire ur candor gyro. been there, and will be there many times over before I leave this earth. best wishes
oughta jump on that pro skater 1+2 soon, been fiending lately |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | opinions |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | Alright dope. |
porcupinetheater
12.14.20 | @Uncle
Like the “post a black square” wasn’t roundly dismissed as performative nonsense by just about everybody even semi involved in activist work.
Nice straw man, though, bet it keeps the crowd out of your fields real nice |
unclereich
12.14.20 | I voted for Obama and am a Democrat but black people in my hallmark movies still makes me uncomfortable. My black friends have abandoned me. What am I doing wrong. I thought my politics were ok? |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | apologies and shit. |
Colton
12.14.20 | I remember seeing some producer on twitter say that if anyone he's worked with doesn't post the black square he's gonna leak their "dry, unedited vocal stems" lol |
unclereich
12.14.20 | Oh I'm just a racist cunt it's not my politics nevermind |
Hyperion1001
12.14.20 | hahaha damn he took that bait HARD |
Sharenge
12.14.20 | pretty sure anybody who would have vocally dismissed it as such would have immediately been denounced as "racist" |
porcupinetheater
12.14.20 | That would make it your politics, dillweed |
Keyblade
12.14.20 | respect |
Colton
12.14.20 | as for Gyro, I've known some people who believed some pretty shitty things in the past and are great people now. A lot of people kinda get indoctrinated or almost brainwashed into thinking certain things and part of me can understand how it happens and it's always good when people snap out of that. The mask wearing thing is really just a matter of basic intelligence though. If a friend of mine was anti-mask I probably wouldn't wanna hang out with them because we would most likely have fundamentally different values and different ways of evaluating information and drawing conclusions about the world around us. Better to surround yourself with people who don't think like that |
MillionDead
12.14.20 | @sharenge: Well taking goods is literally a nonviolent crime lol. Not saying the way to deal with a very REAL and observably violent systemic racism is absolutely to go break and take shit, but people sure listened for a bit didn't they? |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | “I won’t go into specifics, but I’ve come to see the fundamental errors in my approach to discussing some sensitive subjects this year.”
I have to learn the skill of reading-the-next-sentence. I really am sorry dude, twas talking out my ass. |
Gyromania
12.14.20 | I think there's a discussion to be had for the efficacy of masks, however I am 100% in support of them and have been since day 1. If maintained properly, it's just a fact that they reduce the transmission of aerosols, it's just a question of how much exactly. I'm not for shutting down discussions, but it is incredibly challenging not to when it comes to covid deniers and anti-maskers.
Glad to see so many people responding positively to this.
Also Treb: I want to play Hades and Spelunky 2 so badly! Love roguelikes.
octogon: Definitely get on Pro Skater 1+2. It's been a huge nostalgia kick for me in 2020. |
Gyromania
12.14.20 | nolerthebowler: It's all good, I think people approach me with a little bit of hostility and trepidation based on my past actions haha |
Colton
12.14.20 | yeah they're not 100% effective but I can't help but laugh at people whose lives have been so privileged and devoid of real issues that wearing a piece of cloth on their face feels like some kind of oppression to them |
bloodshy
12.14.20 | this is my first time hearing about a black square, but please don't cancel me |
Deathconscious
12.14.20 | "Anyone who has left over something as trivial as politics"
Politics are not trivial, they affect every part of your life. If someones political opinion is that we should bring back the Jim Crow laws then theyre a piece of shit. Political opinions definitely do matter, theyre a window into someones character.
Politics are intrinsically tied to morals, morals decide whether you like people or not [2] |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | You’re whole account is about to become a black square homie |
Colton
12.14.20 | yeah it's not like politics exist completely outside of every other aspect of life, they're intertwined in many ways |
MillionDead
12.14.20 | @bloodshy: Like porcupinetheater said, the black square was just some soft performative bullshit. You don't need to know about it. |
bloodshy
12.14.20 | if it's only on instagram, i'm safe |
Colton
12.14.20 | some people say "I don't care about people's politics" as if they're discussing favourite ice cream flavours or something |
Colton
12.14.20 | also I get why people say the black square doesn't do much and it's performative but honestly it's a way for people to show support and I really don't see anything wrong with it |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | It’s like “thoughts and prayers” after a school shooting. The fact anyone thinks it does anything is a bit pathetic. |
Ryus
12.14.20 | its called activism ok |
Colton
12.14.20 | I don't think anyone's claiming it does anything though, it's just a way of showing support and solidarity. Like if someone tells you that they lost a family member and you say "I'm sorry to hear that" it's not gonna bring their family member back but that doesn't mean it's not worth saying |
Gyromania
12.14.20 | Politics do matter, definitely, but it's difficult to say with certainty what's an unfriendable offense. Knowing some of these people for 10+ years, who never approached me and told me they had problems with my views or wanted to discuss them, they just sent me either short or long messages explaining that our friendship is over - that's something I personally couldn't ever do to someone I purport to care deeply for. I don't think it's okay to hold in reservations about those closest to you, especially if the friendship is waning as a result of their views. If your views are something as hateful as "Black people don't matter" or "Mentally challenged people should be killed" or something insane like that, then I definitely can see why the friendship would be irreparable. I will admit my thinking has been rather flawed this year, but I've grown to really appreciate the people closest to me who had the decency to discuss issues with me and have patience. Even people who claimed to hate me in the past like Pots, had a lot of patience and understanding and I respect and appreciate the hell out of that. |
Deathconscious
12.14.20 | @gyro glad you came around. |
Kompys2000
12.14.20 | Real talk you've said a lot of stupid/offensive shit in the past gyro but you've always struck me as someone who genuinely cares about the truth and wants the best for people, hopefully this is the first of many steps in the right direction for you :) |
Colton
12.14.20 | and it actually can do something, someone might see all the black squares and go "what's this about?" which leads to them doing research which leads to them becoming more informed |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | you aren’t wrong |
Kompys2000
12.14.20 | The main criticism I saw of the black square thing is that it's sort of "content-free", as in people who are actually trying to advocate for specific things, fundraise for a cause, share a petition, etc. get drowned out by well-meaning dunces who want to feel like they're "spreading awareness" without actually doing any research or making any concrete demands to those in power |
porcupinetheater
12.14.20 | Although a lot of people doing the black square attached it to hash tags which cluttered up relevant pages trying to distribute tangible information and strategy in the early stages of the uprisings. It was mostly a pain in the ass from privileged people doing their best virtue signaling.
Edit lol Kompys got there first
And Gyro, sincerely hope this is indicative of a true change in your perspective, and not just a signpost that you're going to be quieter about the repugnant shit you've said in the past |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | I hate traditions. They habitualize actions so they become instinctive, no thought required. “Thoughts and Prayers” after a school shooting feels like a tradition that’s lost all meaning. |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | It’s ironic because they put zero thought into saying “THOUGHTS and prayers.” |
Relinquished
12.14.20 | it’s insane to call it a “tradition”, at least 2020 spared the school shootings |
Colton
12.14.20 | I agree with that Kompys and porcupine, but the people who posted the squares didn't know they were potentially making it harder for people to access relevant info through hashtags, they're just trying to show support. and I see where you're coming from Noler but I don't think that's a tradition, that's just something people say out of a genuine feeling of empathy. There's nothing you can say to undo a tragedy but that doesn't mean you should say nothing at all |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | yeah :/ |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | It really was starting to feel like a tradition in 2019 tho. |
botb
12.14.20 | @gyro no apology needed my man, I’m just happy you did more research and expanded your point of view |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | Especially when the people saying “Thoughts and Prayers” say “You’ll never take mah guns!” 14.5 hours later. |
ArsMoriendi
12.14.20 | Refreshing list of open political discussion here |
MillionDead
12.14.20 | @porc: Well, as far as he's concerned, I'm putting down my guns unless he says some fuck shit again. But I'm taking his word that he won't. |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | but it’s true I speak as a ‘murican |
nolerthebowler
12.14.20 | Is TLOU2 shitty or the best game ever made? I assume it’s one of the two because I’ve never heard an opinion in the middle. |
MillionDead
12.14.20 | I think the story basically spits in the face of the original tbh. Too much loud virtue signaling and "subvert your expectations" horseshit going on. |
Trebor.
12.14.20 | Can we talk about how Hades is the best game of the year |
Ryus
12.14.20 | im wondering what changed ur mind gyro? if ur comfortable talking about it of course |
ArsMoriendi
12.14.20 | I'm also curious |
Gyromania
12.14.20 | I play a lot of chess, and recently a new Netflix mini series came out called The Queen's Gambit, which sparked some controversy within the chess community as its protagonist becomes world champion and is female. A lot of people point out how unrealistic this is since there has never been a female world champion, and almost all of the top 100 players of all time are males. For ages it's been a well asserted thing that females just aren't as good at chess as males. All the talk surrounding this made me do some research and find out that there are a lot of challenges women face in chess, primarily ridicule for being female players and constantly living in the shadow of greater male chess players. Placing these seemingly impossible to overcome hurdles in their way and discouraging thousands of players in the process. I think it's kind of telling that at FIDE this year there was like a 10% turnout for women vs nearly 90% for men. I used to be stuck in this bias too that men were just more capable in this particular area, and others like maths and sciences. But the more I researched it, the more obvious it became that this whole argument of us having inherent biological differences is bullshit. At least intellectually - there's no denying that's true of physical strength. I never considered the societal and cultural pressures and biases that make things more challenging for them in the past, and it made me completely reexamine my thought process behind BLM and systemic racism, which until recently I argued didn't exist. My argument was that there are no current systems in place that support or enforce racism, and that they currently face problems from old systemic racism. I decided to do some reading on both sides to more concretely form my opinions, whereas most of the year I've been kind of living in an echo chamber. My views are still being challenged, but I no longer think it's just a matter of "getting on with life". I was operating under this whole "It's just victim culture" line of thinking, but I have to concede that I can't place myself in their shoes, and I don't know the kind of prejudices they face in life, and no amount of reading about it is going to give me that level of personal experience. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.14.20 | Forgiven, you shitty dingus |
Keyblade
12.14.20 | i hate the internet cuz its hard for me to think this isnt some elaborate pasta lol
very rare to see this level of self reflection on the internet. nobody wants to ever admit they're wrong |
Relinquished
12.14.20 | there ya go gyro |
RogueNine
12.14.20 | Obviously not every political stance carries the same weight. Like Million pointed out, there are a lot of views that simply boil down to disagreements and aren't anywhere near cause to break something off with someone. But there are the occasional viewpoints that reveal too much about one's character. |
Tyler.
12.14.20 | i support this |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | "very rare to see this level of self reflection on the internet. nobody wants to ever admit they're wrong"
I wish people did this more often. Not to toot my own horn or anything - I definitely took far too long to come to these realizations. But yeah, we'd be able to have more productive discussions and work towards positive change if people didn't let pride cloud their judgement. Admitting you made a mistake is honestly really embarrassing most of the time, so I get why people tend to stay entrenched in their opinions for too long |
Dewinged
12.15.20 | Good on you Gyro, and agree, TLOU2 is the best thing I've played this year. |
Darius The Imposter
12.15.20 | Gyro you were a lil shit in the past but i have nothing but utmost respect for those who are able to stand firmly and admit that they were indeed, wrong.
respect [2] |
Intothepit
12.15.20 | If you come to me and tell me you support Trump dud to his views on the economy (despite how skewed they are) or something of the like, I won't agree with you but we can get along.
You come to me and tell me we need to build that wall and let's go grab women by the pussy, I'm probably gonna drop you as a friend.
There's a difference between having a difference of opinion and just being a xenophobic, misogynistic, racist twat. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.15.20 | "wish people did this more often. Not to toot my own horn or anything"
And yet you still gave me shit for the one time I fucking did it lmao
Ftr you have now officially done this at least twice as many times as me ;) |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.15.20 | Also [2] to everything pit said |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Yeah agreed with pit as well. Being blatantly racist/sexist/whatever is totally different from having a discussion about the merits of some topics. I do know some people irl who are blatantly racist as fuck and it's extremely hard to have any respect for them.
And yeah pots lol I'm a hypocrite I know it. Being honest with yourself and with people is legit challenging as hell |
Darius The Imposter
12.15.20 | [3] pit knows
|
Darius The Imposter
12.15.20 | i am happy about this list & for you gyro big ups ngl |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Cheers Darius. Honestly didn't think it'd get this much attention/thought I'd get flamed to hell by some users. |
nolerthebowler
12.15.20 | [4] |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.15.20 | Tbf everyone is a hypocrite, we just people |
nolerthebowler
12.15.20 | [2] |
Slex
12.15.20 | We've sure as hell had our differences lmao, but this has been a hellish year, everyone deserves leeway. This kind of shit is indeed hard to do, total respect for ya.
I had a lot of problems with the pacing of TLOU2 but in terms of pure gameplay it was definitely the best I played this year, good list |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | yeah that thread where we got into a fight is so embarrassing in hindsight fml lmao |
unclereich
12.15.20 | hey guys gyro here, just reminding you i still really dont like this band haha ok later
still a great pasta and im not gunna let you live it down. i will never forget arguing with you endlessly about daryl palumbo |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Dw unclereich - the new Gyro still thinks W&T is dogshit ;D |
unclereich
12.15.20 | i wouldnt have it any other way |
Slex
12.15.20 | It was embarrassing for me too lmao, no worries smh
Also I dunno how you feel about indies but Hades and the Ori sequel are both 10/10 games. Had way more fun with the new Yakuza than I thought I would too |
Jacquibim
12.15.20 | I'll admit I lost patience with you after your comments on Helin Bölek on top of everything else. Hope this is indicative of a genuine change of heart [2] and we can let bygones be bygones. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.15.20 | how the fuck u embarrassed about a measly lil e-beef whilst rocking all that chemise a la reine tier camiknicker-core menstrual-belt ass mountain mom indie folk horseshit, slexington |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | had no clue 'bout any of this but heard some inklings about racial arguments and such. if you felt you were genuinely in the wrong about your stances then, glad to see you own up to it now. far too few people do that nowadays |
Slex
12.15.20 | Potsy the secret is that I'm always embarrassed |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.15.20 | the blush pink hulk |
Slex
12.15.20 | :3 uwu |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | The first Ori was phenomenal, the second I didn't spend a lot of time with but I know I'll enjoy it when I sit down to it. Meant to add it to this list. Hades I'm waiting (and hoping) it comes to PS4.
Jac: Always liked you, wasn't even sure if there was beef between us but glad to hear you're willing to let things from the past go |
evilford
12.15.20 | Wasn't really aware of the specifics but I knew you had generally fallen out of favor recently. My favorite thing about people is when they have the ability to admit they were wrong and own up to it like an adult so props for that. Regardless ur still cool by me |
Curse.
12.15.20 | Is this horseshit apology a last ditch attempt to get on Santa's good list |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | It's just how I feel. |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Thnx evilford. Don't believe we're ever had issues but you seem very chill in general haha |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | this thread has got to set a record for self ejaculation jfc |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | last of us 2 is a horseshit story man cant believe you spent that much time trying to defend and justify it |
Relinquished
12.15.20 | allow yourself to feel, hanson
also stick that dildo up your ass again |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Honestly most games that get praised have pretty weak ass stories. I respect LoU2 for at least taking risks, and the game is a visual treat with engaging gameplay. Big stealth playgrounds were the thing I really loved from the first, and I think they improved them here. Definitely will concede that 1's story is better, albeit much safer |
aydross121
12.15.20 | Only played Hades, Phasmophobia and Age of Empires 2.
All good |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | why would i stick a dildo up my butt idk |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | last of us 2's story is just most obvious continuation of 1. revenge, revenge, revenge. wow, what incredible depth and development. what an interesting and not altogether blandly violent world |
DivergentThinking
12.15.20 | I just recently got The Last of Us II, but I've been hesitant to play it because of how pissy everyone's been on both sides regarding its story. Still, I'll get around to playing it at some point |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | i think as a video game last of us 2 is certainly interesting. it's choices and how it develops are certainly worthy of dissection. i just think it is mostly a bunch of horseshit but, it is an interesting game. |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | "this thread has got to set a record for self ejaculation jfc"
I mean, this wasn't my intention lol. |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | what is the record?
I'm gonna beat it |
Curse.
12.15.20 | I just refuse to believe a guy who for months and months was calling blm a "racist, radical marxist group" has all of a sudden seen the fucking light when multiple people tried explaining it to you multiple times.
Whatever, pat yourself on the back for "seeing the truth". You're a miserable little disingenuous shit desperate for attention and you always have been. |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Also I feel like if it were genuinely just a more obvious continuation of 1 people wouldn't be complaining about it as much. Killing off the main character at the start of the game doesn't seem super obvious to me (and clearly not to all the people who spent months whining about it). There are problems with the disconnect between gameplay and the game's central message but that's ND in a nutshell tbh |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | I just remembered this is a music review site |
Emim
12.15.20 | The drama around here has always been so goddamn tiring. |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | you played as ellie for 1/3rd of the fucking original game this game is an obvious continuation of 1 and killing joel (the game is 6 months old fuck off if you care about spoilers) is the easiest and most boring way to continue the emotional throughline of 1. do we truly deal with the repercussions of ellie not being a lab rat? no. we learn hey theres another out for humanity GUESS JOEL ISNT THAT BAD HUH WELL STILL LETS MURDER FOLKS LOL |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Curse: I don't need to point out the irony in you calling me miserable when you came in here with the sole intention of being a miserable ass, right? |
Slex
12.15.20 | Damn dude yr annoying lol @Hanson |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | do you not wanna have discourse or |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | as a human that sees that lou2 is just the same game as 1 with some cooler open world sections in the middle i totally get where people would dig the game but its still in service of some mediocre bullshit lol. |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | I'm not so sure you want to have actual discourse tbh. You came in here with your typical on-brand smugness and dickishness. Honestly not sure why you even bothered to comment. |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | i have only addressed video game discussion here matt, believe me, if i wanted to be a dick about stuff i could be |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | im always up for spirited discussion about game philsopophy, although when i see ludonarrative dissonance get dropped without further dissection i do tend to disassociate lol |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Regardless of your thinly veiled threats, you 100% do act like a dick in basically 95% of our interactions. You tend to be very dismissive in a too-cool-to-care way, very passive-aggressively. But it's whatever, I didn't want to start arguments in this thread. |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | I feel like there's an argument for both reactions to the game's narrative risk but, ultimately, it's a good game. first is better though |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | On the topic of the game, I don't think ludonarrative dissonance excuses bad writing, and I don't think the writing in LoU2 is without its flaws, but I do think people have been overly critical of it, especially when I've seen these same people repping games with very weak stories. |
Slex
12.15.20 | Okay I was quick to judge, I always am, but you have some decent points
I'm just so exhausted arguing about TLOU2 at this point lol, and I say that as someone who liked but was disappointed with the game |
Space Jester
12.15.20 | As that dude in the Beastie Boys said
“I’d rather be a hypocrite than the same person I used to be”
This is really nice, I’m giving you my support and I’m glad to see someone get something good out of this shitshow that had been 2020 |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | I feel like the dissonance in last of us 2's story leaves plenty of room for people to like less "well crafted" (aka games that dont spend 80% of their runtime) stories. To keep it Triple AAA, I loved God of Wars story even though it was not new, inventive, or progressive in any way. It however was tight, made emotional sense, and it's difficult moments served the narrative in interesting ways that I think TLoU2 COULD have done but just ended up avoiding |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | yeah the shitfest around the game having buff woman who kill Joel but not die by Ellie is entirely the result of the gamer hivemind bandwagoning the hate for a game that hadn't even come out yet. 80% of people who hate it do because someone told them that they should
can it be argued that it was poorly executed? sure! but not nearly to the lack of quality that so many braindead keyboard warriors would have you believe |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | also yes GoW4 was absolutely one of the best-executed narratives of the last decade. it was also fun as fuck |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | who cares who kills joel? thats not important to any criticism i know about the game lol |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | i would agree that GoW's narrative was perfectly executed, however its not original or particularly interesting. Its presentation was def dope though, and all of that together does make me real hype gor GoW Ragnarok ha |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | As far as genre conventions go I think God of War played it as safe as you can get, but I agree the story was very gripping and it helps that the gameplay was solid as fuck. I do see cracks in the gameplay of LoU2. I won't make the argument that it has a better story than God of War, but it certainly took more risks than it. I get where you're coming from though in thinking those were contrived, but some of the emotional beats resonated with me. I think the voice acting was on point, and even when I was perplexed by choices characters made, I could almost always feel the emotion in them. I think the two biggest disconnected moments from LoU2 were when she left her peaceful life with her gf, and the very end when she decided at the last second to not take revenge. The latter especially they could have implemented in a more believable way (and that's where the dissonance is most apparent) but it wasn't enough to ruin the experience for me. |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | you must be apart of the reasonable side of criticism, then, because the vast majority of hate easily comes from a bunch of pubescent teenage children who watched a YT video about why game bad. and they will argue that it's because "Joel's character was disrespected, the woman was is probs trans and that's not possible in apocalypse, why no revenge !!!" not strawmanning your arguments at all but that's been an easy majority of the criticism i've seen
shallow pedantic bullshit, to sum it up |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | uh idk what kinda critics/video game discourse you all follow on twitter but im pretty sure the big backlash i got from tlou2 was just the game following the easy revenge story as opposed to the way more interesting story of ellie vs joel that the game COULD have had as opposed to just hinting at. like ive said, i dont think last of us 2 seems like a bad game (im not play the actual game because ND snoooooooze but) but narratively there is just SUCH lost potential and such gaping missteps that idk, its hard for me to even look forward to another uncharted game lol |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | also like, what they DID with last of us 2 def had visceral emotional beats and the actors were very good, i dont wanna detract from that at all. |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | not Twitter, just literally everywhere else. the game's most numerable audience, whether it knows it or not, is low-to-mid teenagers |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | i mean idk what to say. i have not heard interesting positive dissertations of the last of us 2 that arent surface level (outside of gameplay which, i cannot fully discuss). i would love to read something interesting that isnt a gameplay/"ludonarrative" argument though |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | If you're focusing solely on the story, then GoW can be criticized too by that criteria. A lot of games can. Idk how many games can stand on their own 2 feet judging solely the merits of their story. Disco Elysium comes to mind, and.... Drawing a blank now. LoU2's story isn't original, and neither is GoW, but those are shallow criticisms when there's so much meat on their bones. I also can't remember the last time a game made me play as the villain for half the game, I think it's cool that studios are trying bolder stuff like this. At any rate, it sure as hell is a better story than Uncharted 4 |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Anyway, what games did you enjoy from this year? |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | I mean Control, Disco, and Outer Wils all in the same year kinda proved why Last of Us 2 failed as a narrative. Control essentially functions as a revenge story, but actually contemplates the impact of that in an interesting manner. |
StreetlightRock
12.15.20 | Clearly missed all the polidrama but you've always been my music homie and how I want to play Ghost (after I'm through with CyPk2077). |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | My two favorites games this year are Hades (BY FAR MY FAVORITE GAME THIS YEAR) and FF VII Remake (the most interesting game released this year). This was an awful year compared to the past 3 years imo |
Ryus
12.15.20 | "I'm also sitting on Red Dead Redemption 2"
lowkey the game is kind of boring so far imo. i started playing it a few weeks ago and it feels like the missions are kinda the same thing over and over again, with a lot of downtime in between like riding on your horse n shit. i dont really find the side activities particularly fun either |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | can't be as bad as FF VII Remake |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | ff vii remake is one of the smartest games ever made. im so interested in where Nomura takes it |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | I'm retching |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Hades looks like it'll be my next roguelike obsession, unless I get my hands on Spelunky 2 first. Control I heard is kind of like a soft metroidvania, is this true? Also I think Disco came out in 2019, but I played it this year for the first time so I was considering adding it to the list. Game is a hard 10/10 and I will gladly agree that LoU2's story doesn't hold a candle to it.
StreetlightRock: Cheers brother. Def check out Ghost. I think the story and overall gameplay gets a bit repetitive in the same vein as Far Cry and Assassin's Creed games but it's still a really well made game with fun combat and gorgeous visuals |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | its a full on triple AAA game that directly deals with the fan reaction and interpretation of video game storytelling. there is nothing like it in the history of video games that treats all of that as material in its storytelling. once you get over that its not a FF VII remake, but that it IS FF VII REMAKE, it's so fucking fascinating lol |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | Control and Disco are from 2019 year, and even though Hades "came out" this year i had played it the last couple because of early access so i lumped it in not thinking sorry |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | I think I'm with Dunkey on FF7 lol. Game just seems so far up its own ass and the characters are just unbearable and lifeless |
sixdegrees
12.15.20 | dont worry man we've all had heated gaming moments |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | Control is...similar to Metroid Prime. The backtracking is light and most of the metroidvania of it initial exploration |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | Dunkey is a bad critic but a very good commentator lol. |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | My roommate played Control and he said it's enjoyable but that it's mad homogeneous looking after a while |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | *said as someone who has followed dunkey since his League of Legends days lol |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | What makes him a bad critic? Dude goofs off a lot but when he is being serious he usually makes solid arguments |
hxciluvatarhxc
12.15.20 | yeah i mean Control is a game that was made on a budget that totally exceeds those restraints. It makes the grey surroundings fascinating |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | I'm gonna add it to my list, pretty sure it's on psnow with some other good stuff rn |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | I like Dunkey - he makes me laugh =) |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Dunkey and NakeyJakey have become my absolute favourite YT channels |
Storm In A Teacup
12.15.20 | i've bought only 10 games since i got an xbox one but i think this christmas my parents bought me 3 or 4. glad to see you step toward the light side of the force gyro and get off the border of light and dark side. |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | but force lightning |
Storm In A Teacup
12.15.20 | Lightning is no longer a strictly dark side power. |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | Dunkey actually makes some decent points in the defense of LoU2 as well iirc |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.15.20 | Wow simpin for them dark side hoes huh storm |
Minushuman24
12.15.20 | props, gyro. pretty big of you to say.
Best game of the entire year has is Yugioh Duel Academy for the gba btw |
nightbringer
12.15.20 | Always nice to see someone reflect on their experiences and grow as a result, both in worldview and in character. I had a somewhat similar journey a couple years back in going from being quite skeptical about analyses of racism, sexism etc in 'systemic' terms, and the appeal to mechanisms like implicit bias etc that comes with it, to thinking such analyses were important and insightful.
Interestingly, with respect to the conversation about friendship & disagreement, a large part of this change in me was the result of getting married. My wife is much more of a hardcore lefty than me (and was especially more so when we first started dating!) and has always been quite on board with systemic analyses of discrimination. We used to have quite heated discussions about this matter. The thing about relationships, though, is that if they are going to work, you need to really try super hard to understand the other person's perspective. Plus, if you're a close friend or romantic partner with someone, you usually have a good deal of respect for them. That combination means you cannot just write off their perspective as stupid. It's very different from conversing with some anonymous person on twitter who you have no incentive to view as an intelligent person who might have something worthwhile to say. |
nightbringer
12.15.20 | So I tend to think relationships are very important for changing people's minds. Yes, the arguments and evidence are important too, but we usually process that in an emotional context of some sort. That context can either be favourable or unfavourable for change. And yes, our moral character is relevant to how we process evidence. But I think it's far too simplistic to say, e.g. that everyone who is dismissive of systemic discrimination manifests some fault in character, or is morally culpable. People operate in a context and we need to judge them in light of that context. I think my wife was able to see that, at bottom, I had a good heart, and she was able to see past my professed intellectual views.
This isn't to say that everyone has an obligation to stay in friendship with those they disagree with. Some people are not, at bottom, acting in good faith. Some people have such extreme views that friendship is impossible. And of course, if you are a minority affected by the issues at point in this disagreement, it may cost too much, emotionally, for you to retain the friendship. And in general, I wouldn't put it in terms of obligation. I think that, the above caveats aside, it is often a *good* thing to remain in friendship, even if not strictly obligatory. It's good for that person's prospects of changing, and at a more societal level, it's good for decreasing destructive polarisation. I tend to think that culturally, we've become a bit too trigger-happy with friendship termination. |
rellik009
12.15.20 | oh shit. I had almost completely forgotten about the whole BLM thing
I don't regret "defending" you in the Z&A thread, but I'm glad we were both able to grow from our mistakes. Stay stronk bro
excellent game choices too :]
P.S.: Props to you for making this list btw, you're a ballsy guy
|
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Great dissection of the topic, nightbringer. I think it's important to not immediately demonize people for their views, and alienating and bullying people for them is extremely counter productive as it tends to make people more entrenched in them. People are so quick to dismiss others as racist/sexist and so on with no actual knowledge of that person or their life experiences. Some things are irredeemable - like saying black lives don't matter or saying downright racist shit, but in my experiences people are wont to attack others like rabid animals for trying to discuss the merits of BLM and question the legitimacy of some claims and discuss the efficacy or lack thereof of rioting. These are the topics that made me a social pariah. It was through losing some close friends and also in getting closer to some good friends that I really began reevaluating the roles cultural and societal perceptions play in life and came to a different realization about these topics. Which, as some have pointed out, is apparently total bs and just me trying to get some good karma or whatever. Oh well, you can't please everyone. I'm happy to be where I'm at today though. I'm not perfect and I still am not totally on board with everything the left says, but I'm much closer to understanding their arguments and the challenges people face based on race/sex/religion and so on |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Rellik yeah that thread got out of hand but it was nice to have someone not totally dismissing me. What games are you digging this year |
zakalwe
12.15.20 | Having not known a thing about Death Stranding I downloaded it the other day. What a load of codswallop |
LeddSledd
12.15.20 | [2] to everything nightbringer said |
klap
12.15.20 | just popping in to say Control was the best game i played in 2019 and if you haven't tried it you really should, although i wouldn't play it on a first gen of last gen (i.e., need a ps4 pro or xbox one x) |
Jots
12.15.20 | finna klap them cheeks |
unclereich
12.15.20 | 123 |
Jots
12.15.20 | anyway |
klap
12.15.20 | kontrol me daddy |
Gyromania
12.15.20 | Yeah Death Stranding is terrible, won't go back to it.
I'm gonna get on Control. I remember thinking the game looked a bit like Psy Ops with the psychic powers you get. And now that I hear it's a bit metroidvania-y I'm sold. |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | I liked it... I beat it... I still might go back to it... pretty comfy game (except when it's not) |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | the problem is... it makes me crave Monsters which is absolute bullshit |
Gameofmetal
12.15.20 | I liked the gameplay loop of Death Stranding actually, just skip through every cutscene cuz the story is utter garbage. |
Sharenge
12.15.20 | yeah I didn't much care for the story either... if I go back it'll be for the gameplay experience and certainly not for the story (which is sad 'cus I typically love watching the cinematics and listening to dialogue in Kojima games - guess those days are past) |
nolerthebowler
12.16.20 | Dunkey is absolutely the best game reviewer I know of, granted only 5% of his content is serious reviews. (Especially right now) (I’m dying to hear him talk about cyberpunk) |
Slugboiiii
12.16.20 | TLOU2 was a big pile of wank. I've no problem with the big death and don't understand people crying that it was SJW bullshit. My main gripe was Ellie, she was a terrible character and actively made me look forward to controlling Abby who at least had a bit of nuance to her character. I've never felt so depressed playing a game that I was hyped for. |
Gameofmetal
12.16.20 | points for an original take, too bad it's still WRONG |
quetzal
12.16.20 | Hades is GotY. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.16.20 | Damn, really nothing but unanimous praise for Hades huh
I was gonna skip it because I was underwhelmed with bastion and liked transistor but felt the combat system lacking. Narrative style in both was v cool tho |
Gyromania
12.16.20 | haha dunkey has been on a shitpost rampage lately |
aydross121
12.16.20 | I also think dunkey is a good game reviewer. Also doesn't hurt that we have similar taste. |
rellik009
12.16.20 | "What games are you digging this year"
League of Legends, Hotline Miami, Not A Hero, Crush Crush(shit Idle game). As you can see I haven't explored much, but if I can tone down my League playing time, I should be able to play more games lel
"dunkey is a good game reviewer"
[284791977194696414] absolute legend, he's been killing it from the start |
Deathconscious
12.16.20 | @klap ive got a slim, does Control have framerate issues on the older models, or? |
Itwasthatwas
12.17.20 | It’s stupid to cut people who’ve otherwise showed themselves to be of high character out of your life over politics because political views can and should change with new information. I’ve changed my opinion on most things many times over the course of my life and I’m frankly skeptical of people who haven’t done the same. If the correct moral view and magnitude of importance on any given topic was really cut and dry, we wouldn’t have so much generational drift in views. It’s hubris to think we’re the generation that’s finally figured things out and that time won’t make bigots or zealots or fools of us all. |
quetzal
12.17.20 | Hades is a hundred times better than Bastion and Transistor combined. |
mindleviticus
12.17.20 | My new years resolution is to be as toxic on https://www.sputnikmusic.com that Jom has no choice but to ban me for life |
Asdfp277
12.17.20 | can't read the thread cuz im busy as shit but i'm proud to see that you revaluate your beliefs and behaviour and strive to be better, and wish you luck on the journey ! |
Asdfp277
12.17.20 | "My new years resolution is to be as toxic on https://www.sputnikmusic.com that Jom has no choice but to ban me for life"
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/034/536/Screen_Shot_2020-07-06_at_2.29.40_PM.jpg |
JokineAugustus
12.17.20 | Control is damn fun. One of the best games I played this year. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.17.20 | I played the first 5 minutes of that on switch cloud streaming just to see if cloud streaming was as terrible as it sounds like it could be and it was as terrible as it sounds like it could be
Game seemed cool tho! |
Slex
12.17.20 | Hades is 100% GOTY, it's one of the best games I've ever played in all facets |
aydross121
12.17.20 | GOTY is baba is you |
Slex
12.17.20 | Baba is 2019 |
aydross121
12.17.20 | didn't say what year though
but lol yeah hades is pretty great. been too busy working and I just get the itch to keep on playing |
Storm In A Teacup
12.17.20 | Wow simpin for them dark side hoes huh storm
My hoe wouldn’t appreciate becoming a plurality. |
DrMaximus
12.17.20 | Gybro < 3 |
Deathconscious
12.17.20 | "It’s stupid to cut people who’ve otherwise showed themselves to be of high character out of your life over politics"
Idk if you missed the thread, but:
Politics are not trivial, they affect every part of your life. If someones political opinion is that we should bring back the Jim Crow laws then theyre a piece of shit. Political opinions definitely do matter, theyre a window into someones character.
Politics are intrinsically tied to morals, morals decide whether you like people or not [2]
So yeah, politics can actually be a great reason to cut someone out of your life. |
nolerthebowler
12.17.20 | I will say that when someone has proven that they at least pretend to be a halfway decent person in real life, it makes it easier to have a reasonable discussion about their views. Political opinions are on a spectrum, like everything else. |
nolerthebowler
12.17.20 | But if your political opinions are truly questionable, I have doubts towards your “upstanding character.” |
Itwasthatwas
12.17.20 | Nice condescension, yeah I read the thread, and no your opinion is not the arbiter of moral truth. I’ll give you an example, my family are arab christians, a lot of generally well meaning western liberals support policies and politicians that basically resulted in the unjustified destruction of my extended family or family friends and their homes. Similarly, the western understanding of the power dynamic between Christians and Muslims is totally reversed in my country of origin. It’s not like I haven’t explained this to many of these people before, but at the end of the day they see their domestic concerns as more important than condemning murder and borderline genocide half a world away, unless there happens to be a media push on a particular issue at a particular time (eg Kurds in Syria recently) which they’ll promptly stop caring about as soon as it’s dropped in the news. It would be easy for me to call all of these people bad people and cut them out of my life and only spend time with people who share my background and priorities but I would be cutting a lot of well meaning, otherwise high character people from my life as a result. |
Gyromania
12.17.20 | I'm in full agreement with you, Itwasthatwas. I know people who are truly racist and hateful, to the point where if they see a black guy driving down the street blasting rap music at max volume, they'll say something like "I hope you crash your car and burn alive, fucking ni****". These people are incredibly difficult to be around, and I think those kind of people stand in pretty stark contrast to someone like me who's challenged some of the perceptions about police brutality and some of the claims from BLM such as how academic streaming affects black youths disproportionately, or that white people are given better health care. I think the most provocative things I said were that systemic racism isn't currently in place (by which I mean that it still affects black communities to this day but there are no current systems in place designed to oppress black people) and calling BLM a radical marxist group (back when I saw things like them calling for everyone to not spend on white-owned companies back in 2018, which I said is inherently racist). For expressing these views I've lost friends and family, as well as received a handful of messages from people telling me I should commit suicide, or just generally hateful shit, like Curse.'s comment in this thread. It's easy to demonize strangers and not consider that they're also human beings with complex emotions. People are motivated by self interest but are inherently good, but in the year 2020 I think a lot of people have adopted this mentality of "you're either in agreement with me about this or you're a piece of shit"
I've changed my position on quite a few things regarding BLM - I think it's easy to discredit them based on the views of extremists, the same way it would be easy to dismiss feminism and mra based on looking at the worst examples of those communities. But that obviously isn't fair. I do still take issue with a lot of people and things being said and done in this movement, but I can now comfortable discuss these things with people on either the left or right side. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.17.20 | Are people inherently good tho |
Gyromania
12.17.20 | I'd like to think they are. I'm not trying to fully absolve myself either. I've said some regrettable shit this year but I think a lot of us have. |
klap
12.17.20 | deathconscious, not too familiar with how much of an upgrade the ps4 slim is over the OG, all i know is my friend who played Control on regular ps4 had an atrocious framerate while it was smooth as butter on my xbox one x |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | "Nice condescension"
Lol there was none, youre projecting.
"no your opinion is not the arbiter of moral truth."
Oh, i thought it was. |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | @klap shit. Welp, i probably wont be playing that or Cyberpunk for a long time, ill get a ps5 eventually but not anytime soon. |
Sharenge
12.18.20 | "people are inherently good" is a naive and potentially dangerous belief to have - what you'd like to believe and what is are not necessarily the same thing
I'd say "people are inherently selfish and interested primarily and/or even exclusively in them and theirs" is a more accurate statement, if we're making generalizations about mankind as a whole (oops I said a no no word) |
Sharenge
12.18.20 | but maybe I'm just projecting |
Keyblade
12.18.20 | whats the no no word u said |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | "people are inherently selfish and interested primarily and/or even exclusively in them and theirs"
Thats just the conservative mind. |
Sharenge
12.18.20 | "mankind" I was just being sarcastic haha |
nightbringer
12.18.20 | Honestly, I'm not even sure I know what it means to claim that people are "inherently" good or bad. |
Sharenge
12.18.20 | considering the left would have you believe that half the population are evil racists, I don't see how "people are inherently good" can even be worth considering as true |
unclereich
12.18.20 | if youre not on the left you aint right |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | I already stated though that peoole are self interested but being selfish doesn't make you inherently bad. I don't believe the vast majority of people wish to inflict pain unto others |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | I still align mostly with centrism. I don't fully support the left or the right and both sides have their fair share of crazies |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | @sharenge well yeah, thats just what i said. Half. Less than half, but close enough. |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | Lol must be nice having no convictions |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | On average most people are “good enough” - they generally mean well, would help you out in a bind if they knew you, etc. |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | Selfishness is a learned behavior, talking about things as being products of human nature is kind of cop out that excuses not addressing social issues |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | How would you even begin to prove that empirically? |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | i don't think people are inherently good or bad, i think both of those things are learned and the concepts of good and bad are relative/socially constructed to begin with so objectively measuring this seems like a bit of a fools errand |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | i disagree that "selfishness" is a learned behaviour however, unless you count natural survival mechanisms as "learned behaviours". |
unclereich
12.18.20 | such a fucking white thing to say |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | I mean there’s whole fields of sociology studying how behaviors are determined by cultural and social conditions, seems to me like defaulting to some blanket statement about human nature is the one without probable evidence, @itiswhatitismomplaque |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | And yeah, I do, Pots. Learned to survive. It ain’t an inherent condition, it’s maybelline |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "it’s maybelline"
lul
also i see ur point porc |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "such a fucking white thing to say"
why? and what is the opinion of colour? |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | those fields aren’t exactly filled with highly replicable RCTs
saying it’s a learned behavior to me implies that if you started from scratch and tried putting a bunch of blank slate lab grown humans together a large number of times with no external guidance they would tend not to exhibit selfishness. seems doubtful to me |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | at the same time you see pretty much every animal that actually needs to be selfish to survive demonstrate that but how come if it's a learned behaviour you see it in super well off people born into privilege where survival is all but guaranteed |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | That’s where the cultural side comes in. Survival behaviors reframed via the context of capitalist ethics. And the selfishness of wealth is additionally fraught because a social change entails taking things away they acquired. I’ll agree it’s probably on some level a human trait to not want to lose what you have.
I just think wrapping it up in a nice little bow and claiming human nature is reductive as Hell and doesn’t take into account so many variables. (And I know you ain’t making that argument, Pots) |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | word. i get you. |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | Empathy I think is innate. You can be selfish and still be a good person. From what I've seen observed in the the wild, many animals do tend to help each other out, and many can recognize when another animal is suffering. Humans are even more attuned to these things |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | Culture and society obv both play a vital role tho. A lot of outgoing and kinf behaviors we exhibit definitely are learned |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | @pots Reich was doing a copypasta. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | oh. thanks lol. |
aydross121
12.18.20 | A tendency for empathy is in our genes for sure. Don't know how strong it is though. |
Colton
12.18.20 | I guess humans are both empathetic and selfish by nature. It's just that everyone has a different point where they draw the line for their selfishness, which depends on their capacity to feel empathy and feel guilt that their actions are hurting other people. I think people's selfish tendencies will more often than not override their empathetic tendencies in stressful scenarios though |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | you a bitch by nature |
aydross121
12.18.20 | Colton yeah makes sense, I imagine if your brain has to pick between the self and others in stress it will go for the first by instinct.
There's also the "theory" that says that all we do is for our self benefit. Donate to charity to feel good, help other people to feel good, etc.
Also not sure how true it is. |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | if something is an emergent property of group interactions can it really be called learned though? both selfishness and altruism seem to exist universally in all population groups, probably because both are adaptive in certain contexts.
human populations tend to be pretty empathetic and altruistic all things told, otherwise you could never have millions of them crammed in relatively small geographic areas with relative peace. think about how you would describe human ecosystems if you were an alien researcher studying city and national organization the way we study beehives, they would probably be struck by our ability to cooperate en masse |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | that shit adds up if you ask me
it's often in your own self interest to do things for other people whether it's in the form of self gratification, building support networks, being owed a favour, whatever |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "otherwise you could never have millions of them crammed in relatively small geographic areas with relative peace."
i wouldn't say we've historically been very good at this exactly |
Colton
12.18.20 | "There's also the "theory" that says that all we do is for our self benefit. Donate to charity to feel good, help other people to feel good, etc."
You could argue that it's impossible to be truly selfless because if you enjoy being selfless, you're getting something out of it. But I feel like if you enjoy being selfless, there is no practical difference between doing it for yourself or doing it for others, if that makes sense. Either way you're doing it out of a genuine desire to be a good person and it's helping other people, so why even bother making the distinction between whether it's selfish or selfless |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | It depends what lens you use to look at it though, what seems like cataclysmic violence to us or frustrating greed and selfishness only appears that way because all of us intrinsically crave peace, security, cooperation, etc as the alternative default. from a God’s eye view those might just look like small natural ecosystem corrections while the broader civilizations continue to march on in cooperation |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | people don't always enjoy being selfless for instance i don't enjoy taking your siblings to build-a-bear but i do it for them because you won't |
aydross121
12.18.20 | "But I feel like if you enjoy being selfless, there is no practical difference between doing it for yourself or doing it for others"
Yes agree, I even had an argument with a friend on this. I do think it doesn't matter why you help people, as long as you do so. she did not agree at all, she likes the idea of true selflessness |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "It depends what lens you use to look at it though, what seems like cataclysmic violence to us or frustrating greed and selfishness only appears that way because all of us intrinsically crave peace, security, cooperation, etc as the alternative default. from a God’s eye view those might just look like small natural ecosystem corrections while the broader civilizations continue to march on in cooperation"
i dunno this is a bit bullshitty, what seems like cataclysmic violence to us seems like cataclysmic violence because it is so far beyond the natural measures of cruelty and severity of literally any other living thing we know, and in the odd instance that we see animals behave with such cruelty it's just as disturbing cuz it reminds us of ourselves. |
aydross121
12.18.20 | also will agree with itwas. the world is a shitty place, but it used to be way, way worse in the past. It's slowly and steadily becoming less shitty in almost every aspect (especially in how "good" people are) except for climate change/pollution. |
aydross121
12.18.20 | also animal cruelty is pretty bad right now
|
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | I’m proposing you take individual emotion out of it and look at human civilization like a huge number of lab rats, sure a researcher would note that the different human populations hunt and dispossess each other with relatively high frequency but on average the ecosystem grew exponentially in size for thousands of years without interruption. that doesn’t happen without a lot of cooperation and altruism at the micro level |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | of course it is less bad than it used to be but it isn't exactly good and it counts for a very small portion of our history so i'm not even sure what point that illustrates
"it used to be worse"
....? |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "also animal cruelty is pretty bad right now"
yeah, they've been learning from the very best: us
still don't see dolphins pulling a unit 731 |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "I’m proposing you take individual emotion out of it and look at human civilization like a huge number of lab rats, sure a researcher would note that the different human populations hunt and dispossess each other with relatively high frequency but on average the ecosystem grew exponentially in size for thousands of years without interruption. that doesn’t happen without a lot of cooperation and altruism at the micro level"
if lab rats nuked each other i'd be like: wow lab rats suck |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | Yeah, comparisons to other animals in nature doesn’t do much, because when you’re looking at the question of violence, the fact that we have an active cognition of the concepts of death and pain. Can’t really draw ethical arguments via comparisons to species incapable of ethics.
Same reason why it’s frowned upon to drop trou and lay steamer in the middle of fifth Avenue even though my dog does that and everyone minds their damn business |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | "There's also the "theory" that says that all we do is for our self benefit. Donate to charity to feel good, help other people to feel good, etc."
Always found this ideology to be rather stupid. Unless "selfishness" doesn't have a negative connotation. Like if I hold a door for someone expecting a "thank you", sure you could say it wasn't a totally selfless act, but it still benefited someone else |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "because when you’re looking at the question of violence, the fact that we have an active cognition of the concepts of death and pain. Can’t really draw ethical arguments via comparisons to species incapable of ethics."
yes, which makes it all the worse |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “if lab rats nuked each other i'd be like: wow lab rats suck” more likely you’d be like oh, group 1 reduced group 2’s population by 1%, next |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | ok psycho |
aydross121
12.18.20 | "it isn't exactly good"
I mean I agree ofc. Was just going off a tangent related to what itwas is saying.
I feel like if we didn't have an inherent drive to help others there wouldn't be 7 billion of us living in relative harmony if that makes sense. |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | I think the greatest thing about being human is that we get to go to heaven. I mean that's pretty awesome, right? I don't even think all dogs go to heaven |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “Can’t really draw ethical arguments via comparisons to species incapable of ethics”
I’m not talking about ethics though, just making the point that the scale of human civilization implies high amounts of empathy, altruism, and cooperation despite what we see as a large amount of conflict and selfishness. both phenomena coexist |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | I’m reincarnating, nerd |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | i just disagree that we live in "relative" harmony. again, relative to what? because we certainly don't live in relative harmony to nature if you ask me |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | Fine you reincarnate while I'm sipping champagne in heaven with my 40 virgins |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | " just making the point that the scale of human civilization implies high amounts of empathy, altruism, and cooperation"
like building the pyramids amirite |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | I think on a long enough timelime humans might wipe each other out |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “ i just disagree that we live in "relative" harmony. again, relative to what? because we certainly don't live in relative harmony to nature if you ask me”
relative to a hypothetical world where humans are all selfish monsters without a tendency towards altruism and cooperation, I’d wager such a population would snuff itself out fairly quickly, not grow to 7 billion |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | given enough time (ie if something else doesn't kill us first) if we don't wipe each other out, we'll wipe ourselves out, which is really the same shit |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | lmao so relative to a made up reality in which we are worse, we are better |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | a hypothetical purely selfish population might not even make it past a handful of people though |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "I’d wager such a population would snuff itself out fairly quickly,"
well if you want to talk about removing yourself from the perspective of a human and looking at it from gods point of view, 7 billion aint shit and we've barely been on the planet for more than a blink of they eye |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | i don't think anyone was really arguing that we are purely selfish to begin with tho, at least i wasn't |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | Yeah, we're pretty on schedule to snuff ourselves out right quick. |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “l mao so relative to a made up reality in which we are worse, we are better”
remember the topic was whether or not people had intrinsic tendencies towards selfishness or empathy, I argue both are true. the fact that we think we’re not empathetic is actually an argument for why we are - it bothers most people to see purely selfish behavior |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | i also would argue that both are true, it just sounds to me like you think we are overwhelmingly empathetic which i call shenanigans on |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | I mean saying people have intrinsic tendencies in all directions isn't much of a point in the first place. |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “well if you want to talk about removing yourself from the perspective of a human and looking at it from gods point of view, 7 billion aint shit and we've barely been on the planet for more than a blink of they eye”
take the same human stock and deactivate the parts of the brain that generate empathy and altruism and out say 100 of them together in a low technology environment and I wager they vanish without producing another generation |
aydross121
12.18.20 | pots that's a good question, I guess it's not an easy one to answer.
I don't like to sound too cold here, but we managed to become the apex species on earth, and you don't do that without tons of cooperation and trust.
But yes, that also means we had to stomp nature/animals on the way here. so I meant "harmony" between our species. we certainly don't live with other animals in harmony. |
aydross121
12.18.20 | also noticed this thread was about videogames |
Colton
12.18.20 | "the fact that we think we’re not empathetic is actually an argument for why we are - it bothers most people to see purely selfish behavior"
You can even just see it something as simple as the way we view animals. And it's something people are born with too, not learned. Put a puppy in front of a 2 year old and they'll naturally wanna pet and play with the puppy and if someone harmed the puppy they would be upset |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “I mean saying people have intrinsic tendencies in all directions isn't much of a point in the first place”
you specifically claimed that one of the two was not intrinsic |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | take the same human stock and deactivate the parts of the brain that generate perceivably negative "intrinsic tendencies" like selfishness and jealousy and out say 100 of them together in a low technology environment and I wager they do a damn fucking fine job so what is your point |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "I don't like to sound too cold here, but we managed to become the apex species on earth, and you don't do that without tons of cooperation and trust."
you also don't exactly do that by flaunting your empathy of all things |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | I claimed that neither is intrinsic and it's silly to say otherwise. |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | Jfc we're both altruistic and selfish rolled into one neat little package. You need a healthy dose of both to survive |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | " Put a puppy in front of a 2 year old and they'll naturally wanna pet and play with the puppy and if someone harmed the puppy they would be upset"
put a puppy in front of a 2 year old and it's going to tug on its fucking ears and get yelled at
|
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | that might not be true if removing selfishness and jealously led to things like lower paid bonding or if excessive altruism or lack of selfishness led to everyone prioritizing other people over their offspring and their offspring becoming less likely to survive, etc. we would need to go down another set of thought experiment rabbit holes to guess if that was true |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | i dunno i can see the argument for either it all being learned or we have an innate predisposition for empathy and selfishness and all that i don't know which one but all i know is empathy and altruism sure as fuck doesn't outweigh the bad shit |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “ Jfc we're both altruistic and selfish rolled into one neat little package. You need a healthy dose of both to survive”
that’s literally the only point. I just chimed in against a couple posts suggesting that humans were particularly selfish and not empathetic |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | same could be said of your hypothetical itwasthatwas, you don't know what would happen, ur hazarding a guess just as i am, and if you think we are perfectly calibrated and this is the ultimate ideal i think ur straight buggin' |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | I didn’t say we’re perfectly calibrated, just more empathetic and altruistic than cynics might have you believe |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | We have the innate capacity for both. How they take effect is pretty contingent on the nurture side of the argument, and learned experience. To not have the capacity for either would be living a life completely separate from any other living creature, because every action has consequence in some capacity. But the fact that nothing's determinate indicates that there isn't a specific human nature separate from our lived experiences.
Selfish behavior is the result of a society that exhibits selfish actions and vice/versa. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "I didn’t say we’re perfectly calibrated, just more empathetic and altruistic than cynics might have you believe"
your argument is that we are super empathetic because if you look at us like lab rats we are still alive and did a society, the entire thing hinges entirely on disregarding your own empathy so you can ignore all the fucked up shit we do to each other. im not saying we aren't an empathetic bunch, we obviously have a greater capacity for empathy than any other living thing, but that also makes us cruel because it means we can exploit what we know harms people |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | I don’t necessarily accept that we know that nothing is predetermined but don’t really want to get into it now. actually i think we went down the biological determinism rabbit hole in some other thread last year, I think potsy was part of that one too |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | im finding porcupines arguments more and more compelling |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | “ your argument is that we are super empathetic because if you look at us like lab rats we are still alive and did a society, the entire thing hinges entirely disregarding your own empathy so you can ignore all the fucked up shit we do to each other. im not saying we aren't an empathetic bunch, we obviously have a greater capacity for empathy than any other living thing, but that also makes us cruel because it means we can exploit what we know harms people”
I argue for the removal of the self from the observer because your empathy prevents you from recognizing day to day human empathy. It’s like online reviews, most only take the time if something is shit or awesome, but not if something is just pretty good |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | and removing your empathy prevents you from recognizing day to day extreme cruelty |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | i aint about this robot shit |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | good argument tho riveting stuff |
Itwasthatwas
12.18.20 | I’m more robotic than the average person, true |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | u would have made a good unit 731 researcher
(mostly joking) |
porcupinetheater
12.18.20 | This experiment where we grafted opposable thumbs onto rats got dark fast
Fucking lol Pots |
aydross121
12.18.20 | can we go back to complaining about cyberpunk?
Just read that they removed the game from the playstore, that's big tbh |
Ryus
12.18.20 | lol big dick sony
im so glad i cancelled my order of that game lol |
DrMaximus
12.18.20 | Had to get a refund. So brutal on x one |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | That shit is so fucked up
What were they thinking |
DrMaximus
12.18.20 | Cant believe it was supposed to come out in April lol |
unclereich
12.18.20 | drmax sighting wooowwwwweee. you should try being a call of duty nerd like me that game is the worst it has ever been. multiplayer fps games are dead |
Colton
12.18.20 | sci fi shit in video games is always lame |
parksungjoon
12.18.20 | Is there a video game character stronger than Madara Uchiha? Keep in mind I'm talking about Rinne Tensei Madara Uchiha with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, the Rinnegan, a perfect Susano'o and the ability to control the juubi and the Gedou Mazou. |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | @colton Fuck. Off. |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | Im buying Final Fantasy 7 through 9 on the playstation store today, goin on a retro binge. I didnt give 8 a fair shake in middle school when i tried it so im looking forward to playing it with a more open mind, and i love 9 but never finished it. |
parksungjoon
12.18.20 | did you know in maga man for the nes if you pause the game just as your covid beam passes through dr bernie, and then you unpause and pause again as fast as you can a few times, you can actually win the fight with just the one shot? crazy |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | Of course i knew that. Who do you think youre talking to, a non-gamer? |
parksungjoon
12.18.20 | idk i thought most of yall were too young for nes |
Deathconscious
12.18.20 | For real though, my first console was a SNES. |
Gyromania
12.18.20 | Haha I remember the yellow devil cheese |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
12.18.20 | "sci fi shit in video games is always lame"
You have a youtube channel for acoustic guitar nintendo covers bruh. Ur standing on the Olympic podium of lame. |
ieatbabies795
12.20.20 | “...For ages it's been a well asserted thing that females just aren't as good at chess as males. All the talk surrounding this made me do some research and find out that there are a lot of challenges women face in chess, primarily ridicule for being female players and constantly living in the shadow of greater male chess players. Placing these seemingly impossible to overcome hurdles in their way and discouraging thousands of players in the process...”
Having read this earlier this week, it has stuck with me and thinking about this tonight has really hit me hard. It’s so easy for us to make assumptions and denounce systemic discrimination but when it exists and gets ignored, it leads to those assumptions (or stereotypes) into becoming self fulfilling prophecy. Even though in the US I am called a minority, I can’t experience the belittlement or discrimination that a woman can face in the world but I can be more aware of the issues they face. It’s something I think I need to apply when acknowledging the struggles that black people face in the world. |
ieatbabies795
12.20.20 | @Gyro I haven’t seen the type of statements you’ve made on this site in the past and maybe I’m just feeling a bit emotional today but I really appreciate that comment you made. |
CaliggyJack
12.20.20 | TLOU2 is a great game but it pales in comparison to previous NaughtyDog games iibch
Also, hot take here, but Ludonarrative Dissonance is an important aspect in maintaining the boundary between video games and reality. Getting "immersed" in video games always felt like a dangerous mindset to me, and a lot of people who harp about it tend to have trouble differentiating fiction from reality. It's why I don't like VR either. |
Sharenge
12.20.20 | codswallop |
someguest
01.21.21 | It's about time you apologized. I've been suffering quietly for years. |
unclereich
01.21.21 | I suffered thru your alcoholism by becoming an alcoholic myself ty very much |
ieatbabies795
01.21.21 | What is this? AA? |
Gyromania
01.21.21 | yes. please take a seat and state your name if you intend on being here a while |
ieatbabies795
01.21.21 | My name is Ricky and I think girls are kinda icky |
budgie
01.21.21 | wheres my apology gyro???? |
Gyromania
01.21.21 | I'm sry ur such a lil biznatch budgie |
budgie
01.21.21 | waw |
ieatbabies795
01.22.21 | A Gyro Apology Pt.2. When?? |
Sinternet
01.22.21 | Fortnite (just kidding, fuck this game!) |
Colton
01.22.21 | Sinternet, defender of the basic |
LeddSledd
01.22.21 | Why, yes! My favorite movie is Endgame, my favorite show is The Office, my favorite game is Minecraft, my favorite song is Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen, and my favorite YouTuber is Pewdiepie.
|
Gyromania
01.22.21 | It does seem like something he'd dig lol |
