ScuroFantasma: So Civil War...

ScuroFantasma 04.29.16	Last two are vying for best BM of the year so far.
zaruyache 04.29.16	I'm hyped. How'd you get a pre-screening?
Flugmorph 04.29.16	It was pretty great tho I expected it to be a little better. Felt a little token at times, but the last thirty minutes or so where really good. Also liked fthe scenes in berlin ans leipzig
Rowan5215 04.29.16	On the positive side, it's the best directed Marvel movie so far and there was some dialogue that wasn't god-awful for once. On the negative, new Spidey is god-awful, Robert Downey Jr needs to stop acting in literally any movie ever again for the rest of his life, the undergrad "avant-garde" location text was cringey af and they pussed out of killing a main character like everyone knew they would. Overall 7/10 one of the better marvel movies so far
ScuroFantasma 04.29.16	Yeah agreed Rowan, character shouldn't have survived that. New Spidey wasn't too bad imo except for that bedroom scene and some cringey dialogue at times. @Zaru it's out in Australia now.
Flugmorph 04.29.16	lol'ed at war machine beeing a main character
LotusFlower 04.29.16	wont be out in the states until may 6th, im hoping that they do a better job balancing multiple characters because Avengers 2 was a trainwreck for that reason. Also i need a good super hero movie to recover from BvS.
Rowan5215 04.29.16	that's not what I meant (although they could've killed him too because literally who cares about War Machine), look up what happened at the end of the Civil War comics if you want to see how they would have ended this movie if they weren't allergic to taking the slightest risk
Keyblade 04.29.16	gonna see it tomorrow, it's been out for a day already over here in the far east ayy
LotusFlower 04.29.16	wait you mean that war machine didnt die? wtf.
Flugmorph 04.29.16	Ye I heard he died there in the comics before I saw the movie. Was a big dissapointment that he didnt died there. Btw. Havent read any superhero comic ever lol
ScuroFantasma 04.29.16	Well spoiler alert he survives And he shouldn't have
LotusFlower 04.29.16	then what tf is motivating the war between cap and iron man? blegh.
Flugmorph 04.29.16	because hes basically lame af
ScuroFantasma 04.29.16	im hoping that they do a better job balancing multiple characters because Avengers 2 was a trainwreck for that reason" They do. The part they really nailed though was the dynamics between the main characters.
ScuroFantasma 04.29.16	@CLOVER Won't give that away, but it is justified well I'll say that much (though for some characters on both sides the motivation is a little unclear or tenuous imo).
LotusFlower 04.29.16	@scuro, thats comforting to hear.
zaruyache 04.29.16	"@Zaru it's out in Australia now." Hate
Devastator 04.29.16	So new Spidey, thoughts?
Flugmorph 04.29.16	funny but cringy at times [2]
furyroad97 04.30.16	Sounds awesome. Gonna go see it next week.
Cygnatti 05.10.16	It was amazing btw
Ovrot 05.10.16	for a civil war there wasn't very many confederates
Lord(e)Po)))ts 05.10.16	it was enjoyable but i could write like seven paragraphs detailing the like 50,000 things wrong with it. oh wait thats right, we like to file marvels glaring flaws safely away in our blindspot.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 05.10.16	"then what tf is motivating the war between cap and iron man? blegh." basically nothing. none of the characters have any strong enough motivations to get involved in any way whatsoever other than cap and black panther. here is a run down of character motivations in the film to start a 'civil war' (in the context of this film its much more like a small localized feud in a miraculously empty airport) with each other and beat the shit out of each other and risk lives and ruin friendships and be lame as fuck vision: ai. does what is told. likes scarlet witch a lot so will do whatever he can to make sure that he's a big fucking douche. black widow: ????????????????????????????????????????....?? war machine: cuz tonys bitch iron man: some mom told him he's a bad man captain america: broner winter soldier: does not want to go to super jail black panther: dad died and he thinks its buckys fault spider-man: because iron man has absolutely no moral compass whatosever and peer pressures 11 year old boys to fight dangerous superhumans because reasons ant-man: why not? nothing better to do. its not like he just redeemed himself and got back into his daughters life or anything. might as well throw it all away and go to prison cuz some guy he fought on a roof once asked him to hawkeye: because his family is more important than the avengers except when his family suddenly isnt more important than the avengers. see ant-man. neither of these fucking people should be here. scarlet witch: angst falcon: caps bitch but then shoehorn in the lamest villain ever and ur good to go
Lord(e)Po)))ts 05.10.16	honestly, like with every marvel film to date, the more i think about it the shittier and shittier it gets
Insurrection 05.10.16	loved it. spiderman was awesome
klap 05.10.16	civil war as a comic series was terrible to begin with so this is probably an improvement
Keyblade 05.10.16	seeing antman again was worth it. and spidey's cameo was pre cool too
SitarHero 05.10.16	My only disappointment with Civil War was Parker not referencing Uncle Ben and "With great power comes great responsibility". I'm thankful we don't have to deal with yet another Spidey origin story, but let's all accept that it simply isn't possible to define Spidey's ethos better than that line and then continue using it. Marisa Tomei tho...goddamn. Spidey and T'Challa were entertaining if extraneous. The movie was definitely an A-grade popcorn flick which respects its audience enough to not try to half-heartedly answer or resolve the "Serious Questions (c)" that it raises.
Keyblade 05.10.16	"My only disappointment with Civil War was Parker not referencing Uncle Ben and "With great power comes great responsibility"" i was literally waiting for peter to quote this when they were in his room. it felt like it was coming as it was perfectly set up and woulda been cool but it didnt which was odd
Keyblade 05.10.16	wait marisa tomei is legit 51 years old wtf. i was thinking it was weird to cast someone so young as aunt may but damn
SitarHero 05.10.16	RIGHT?! I think that because that line is so perfect we've come to think of it as inextricably tied to Spider-Man/Peter Parker's identity. One of the main reasons I hated Amazing Spider-Man is that they tried to redo that speech, when it's obviously not possible to improve upon it. Just accept that it's perfect and cannot be rewritten and then use it is what I would do. However, I'm gonna be pissed if Stark (or less pissed if it's Cap) who ends up giving that speech to young Parker.
SitarHero 05.10.16	Tomei and Downey are the same age-ish, and have been romantic leads opposite each other before, which makes the possibility of Stark dating aunt May and becoming Parker's surrogate uncle Ben both intriguing and icky.
Rowan5215 05.10.16	this movie actually had the best villain of the movie series so far though. it's like they're actually learning that humans with motivations for vengeance are literally always more interesting and better villains than super-powerful omniscient god fuckers. like it's hilarious that I actually felt more sympathy for the villain in this movie than I did for a single main character except maybe panther
SitarHero 05.10.16	I would go out on a limb and call him the most interesting villain in a superhero movie after Heath Ledger's Joker.
Rowan5215 05.10.16	He's probably up there but he doesn't really have much competition as far as movies ago. Of course if you bring in the shows then Kingpin absolutely destroys him
Insurrection 05.10.16	zemo was a great villain yea. i love how you had no idea what his motive was til the very end and it's the simplest thing. great actor too. dunno about being one of the best marvel villains tho. there's loki (say what you will about him being overused but he was the perfect villain for the avengers) emil blonski (tim fuckin roth) alexander pierce (robert fuckin redford) ultron (could've been better tho) not taking stuff outside the MCU into account cause kingpin, kilgrave, doc ock, magneto, etc p much stomp them all
Valkoor952 05.10.16	The movie was awesome, agreed. Was expecting a bigger pay-off you know, a major death or something but I guess that will be explored more in Infinity Wars. The action scenes in particular and some of the lines are fucking gold. Not sure if this tops Winter Soldier, it's pretty hard to decide.
Rowan5215 05.10.16	who tf is Alexander Pierce lol Yeah Blonski was great and Loki's aight but I'll take a human being with genuine beef any day tbh
Insurrection 05.10.16	"who tf is Alexander Pierce lol" secretary of state (?)/hydra head in the winter soldier winter soldier is still #1 for me
Rowan5215 05.10.16	Oh right. I liked that movie but literally remember nothing that happened in it
Insurrection 05.10.16	it's up there in my fav superhero movies of all time tbh. watched it again the other day, such a good political thriller, and that first fight between cap and WS is unreal
rockandmetaljunkie 05.10.16	Amazing film
Valkoor952 05.10.16	Now if they can pull-off infinity wars that would be great. I mean surely handling 20-30 superheroes on-screen is a possible task.
ScuroFantasma 05.10.16	Ja pots hit it on the head with the motivation thing, for some of them it's especially tenuous. But I just accepted it and moved on becuase it's more fun that way.
SitarHero 05.10.16	I think that as a character zemo tops even Loki and Pierce even though those had great actors doing fun things with their roles. The mystery and payoff were definitely worth the wait.
ScuroFantasma 05.10.16	Agreed, plus the actor is awesome. That might be my bias from his role in Inglorious Basterds but I like the dude.
Valkoor952 05.10.16	Actually you're wrong. That's the thing they did best : to establish everyone's motivations. I'll go into it later as I don't have much time right now.
ScuroFantasma 05.10.16	Accidentally deleted my comment, but please do when you've got the time, I'd be interested in hearing another side of this. Imo Stark, Capt. Bucky and Panther have clear intentions, nearly everyone else seems to just join in cuz one guy called them up before the other and they were bored when it happened.
Keyblade 05.10.16	"honestly, like with every marvel film to date, the more i think about it the shittier and shittier it gets" as long as it got u to suspend belief during in the theater then it did its job. a lot of shit was just weird and didnt make sense (shit, the entire 'civil war' was anything but looking back), but during the movie it seemed like some intense ass shit lol
zaruyache 05.10.16	the location titles in that obnoxious BIG ART FILM CAPITAL LETTERING was laughably bad and the shoehorning of Spider-man in felt really forced (almost like that scene in BvS that revealed the other heros, but not nearly as awful). That said, the Spidey scenes were really great and the humor was on-point as usual. I am so happy that Paul Rudd is part of the MCU. Good film, despite some really obvious flaws.
SitarHero 05.10.16	"Imo Stark, Capt. Bucky and Panther have clear intentions, nearly everyone else seems to just join in cuz one guy called them up before the other and they were bored when it happened." Actually I think their motivations are fairly complex, which is why they seem ambivalent about it. Team Iron Man believes in the Sokovia Accords. Team Cap believes in Cap. I will admit that I was a bit baffled at first by Hawkeye and Falcon falling in with Cap even though they are soldiers and fairly staunch company men. However, Black Widow's defection put it into perspective; she and they may believe what they believe, but they trust Cap's judgment more than their own. Ant-Man has been established as a non-conformist anti-authoritarian much like Cap, so his motivations are also not that murky. Meanwhile, on the other side, Vision and Rhodey are more logical in their approach and believe in the Sokovia accords as a rational necessity, as stated by Vision, T'Challa has a vendetta, and Spidey is a kid who just wants to hang out with the great Tony Stark, and probably has little to no clue what is actually going on.
JWT155 05.10.16	I enjoyed it but I wasn't completely sold on the fact that one dude who lost his fmaily who's ex spec ops in Sokovia single handedly found a way to dismantle the Avengers without really being caught until the end. I just feel that the film needed a little more legitimacy with the antagonist.
Valkoor952 05.10.16	Yeah, I was gonna write something but Sitar actually explained it pretty well. They don't fight just because they are Tony's bitch or Cap's bitch, they all think for themselves and have their own ideas on how superheroes should be treated and controled. The lives of many people may depend on those accords, and that is what motivates them, doing the right thing. Obviously guys like Panther , Cap and Tony have even more complex motivations, while guys like Ant-Man and Spidey are there basically just because they get to hang out and have a chance to impress the avengers. ( I mean who would miss that ).
Lord(e)Po)))ts 05.10.16	Fucking hilarious seeing people Herald zemo as the best marvel villain. I mean even if you ignore how shittily adapted he was from his comic counterpart, he was such a trope.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 05.10.16	And sorry if you think anyone other than cap bucky and panther had clear believable motivations you're full of shit.
TheCrocodile 05.10.16	never seen someone go get a paycheck as much as renner did with this one smh
Lord(e)Po)))ts 05.10.16	Lol truedat
Valkoor952 05.10.16	You're the only person that I've seen having problems with their motivations, so I think the "full of shit" is obscure. Plus, I can see you are one of those people that always thinks they are fucking right with their opinions, shoving them down people's throats, so there is no point in arguing really, since hardly anything can convince you.
LotusFlower 05.10.16	going to the theater to watch it rn hopefully its better than BvS and The Avengers 2.
TheCrocodile 05.10.16	was really disappointed with this one and would say that it might just be slightly better than both BvS and ultron. and yeah most don't have any motivations whatsoever and are just there to have a fight in an airport
ScuroFantasma 05.10.16	"eam Iron Man believes in the Sokovia Accords. Team Cap believes in Cap. I will admit that I was a bit baffled at first by Hawkeye and Falcon falling in with Cap even though they are soldiers and fairly staunch company men. However, Black Widow's defection put it into perspective; she and they may believe what they believe, but they trust Cap's judgment more than their own. Ant-Man has been established as a non-conformist anti-authoritarian much like Cap, so his motivations are also not that murky. Meanwhile, on the other side, Vision and Rhodey are more logical in their approach and believe in the Sokovia accords as a rational necessity, as stated by Vision, T'Challa has a vendetta, and Spidey is a kid who just wants to hang out with the great Tony Stark, and probably has little to no clue what is actually going on." See this is fine in hind sight, and you did well to justify it but my problem is almost none of it was confirmed in the movie. Like yeah you can look at their characters and go 'okay, he's probably acting lke this becuase x' but without it being confirmed, you could make a strong case for any of them on either side. Like black widow fighting Hawkeye and Captain? I mean come on she flip-flopped anyway but had they set her up on Captains side in the beginning no one would question it. And Spidey and Antman, if they're in it to impress, either side could do that for them so being distributed the way they are happens because one gets to them before the other. Hawkeye being in this movie is okay with me, but he should have a damn good reason to be doing this since he ends up in super jail away from his family for....what? I don't get it really.
zaruyache 05.10.16	at the end of Ant-Man tho there's that scene where Falcon talks to Ant-Man's friend to try and recruit him and his reaction to this news is basically an excited "I'm gonna be a superhero wooo!" so I think it's fairly understandable why he was OK with being shipped around in a van to go help fight with some guys he's never even met before, in a battle whose context he's probably not even been fully briefed on. His canon motivation is basically just "I want to be an official superhero."
SitarHero 05.11.16	The conversation between Falcon and Cap that happens in Vienna actually does explain it (the "people who shoot at you end up shooting at me" conversation). It's clear that Falcon trusts Cap if Cap is sure about what he wants to do. This dynamic plays out with Black Widow as well when she lets Bucky and Cap go at the airport. Hawkeye wasn't explored well enough, but then again, when does he ever get enough screen time? The good/bad thing about the MCU (depending on your point of view) is that we have seen all the characters in so many movies till this point that I think the movie just assumes you know enough about the older characters to deduce their reasons and doesn't go out of its way to give you firm and/or simplistic reasons for why the characters do things. Only the newer characters like Panther and Spidey (and to some extent Vision and Wanda) who we know nothing about get the benefit of simple motivations. For instance, the reasons why Stark turned from a libertarian rebel to a fascist wannabe, or Cap's growing distrust of any kind of authority, even at the level of the United Nations are combinations of little things rather than one giant thing for each of them.
SitarHero 05.11.16	Also RE: Ant-Man, this little nugget of viral marketing goes a long way to explaining what Scott Lang believes in and why he would side with Team Cap. Keep in mind this was before the Ant-Man film and after Ultron. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrJzv4JyyeU
Valkoor952 05.11.16	^ Fucking spot on. In a movie with 10+ main characters I think they did a great job handling them, which is hard to do in the first place. Why do you think Joss Whedon "retired" from the MCU. He was feeling miserable during and after the avengers 2 and he couldn't bare all that stress.
Rowan5215 05.11.16	because he realised that he disgraced his formerly incredible reputation with that POS age of ultron and wants to quit before he ruins his fanbase completely?
iambandersnatch 05.11.16	Saw it, and I thought a little too much of the movie was setup. Yes, the last 30-45 min of the movie was pretty good because of it, but the first 2/3 of the movie dragged more than it should have. And I'm a guy who watches slow dramas, so I can handle slow. It was still fairly good, probably the weakest Captain America movie but still better than most of the marvel garbage. It felt a little more like an Avengers movie than a Cap movie though.
ScuroFantasma 05.11.16	Okay you guy's have given good explanations actually, cheers. Besides Hawkeye, I feel better about each character's motives.
Valkoor952 05.11.16	Weakest captain America ? This is light years ahead of the first avenger, even if it doesn't surpass TWS.
LotusFlower 05.11.16	movie went alright. better than ultron and bvs at least.
Toondude10 05.11.16	Great movie, but I feel like it should've been called Avengers: Civil War, never really felt like a solo Captain America movie until the last 20 minutes
sonictheplumber 05.11.16	I didn't even dig the comics
sonictheplumber 05.11.16	Really the price of comics and lack of interest around the time of the skrull invasion, queef, haven't read comics in forever. Prolly never will be rich enough to collect. My dad has like 20k worth of books goin back to silver age
sonictheplumber 05.11.16	The newest hero movie I've seen is the first avengers movie
sonictheplumber 05.11.16	I remember I got into avengers when the avengers disassembled story was goin on, they fuckin killed hawkeye, vision too I think. Plus killer art great way to get into the shit and people still didn't know who the avengers were yet
sonictheplumber 05.11.16	Course now you got 5 year olds dressin as scarlet witch for Halloween it's crazy
Insurrection 05.11.16	sonic you should at least check the winter soldier. even outside the superhero context it's just a damn good movie
zaruyache 05.11.16	yeah Winter Soldier was like a Jason Borne flick more than a superhero flick. So if you liked the Borne films, get on it.
Valkoor952 05.11.16	Speaking of Bourne, who's hyped for the new one ?
SitarHero 05.11.16	First Avenger is super underrated, I think. Not an attempted high-concept movie like the sequels, but as a simple superhero origin story it works better than it should.
ZippaThaRippa 05.11.16	When is there gonna be a new Bourne? And will Renner be back?
Toondude10 05.11.16	new Bourne is going to be out this summer, and nope, it's a Matt Damon movie.
zaruyache 05.11.16	Renner's movie was not interesting at all imo. Felt like a really pointless cashgrab addition to that universe.
Devastator 05.18.16	I'm looking forward to the new Bourne movie. Happy that Damon is back.
zaruyache 05.18.16	I was mad that they were going to continue the story after the last film had such a nice story-concluding ending sequence, but I'm still gonna see it. As much as I don't want another one for narrative reasons, it'll probably still be pretty OK.
Kman418 05.18.16	"as long as it got u to suspend belief during in the theater then it did its job" honestly though it didnt even do that, at least for me lol. like when it got to the main fight me and my friend turned to each other n were both like "what the fuck are they even fighting over again??? isn't there supposed to be some evil force or something trying to destroy the world????" but also the last time i really enjoyed a superhero movie was the dark knight and even that was like a 6.5/10 to me so i wont be a dick and rib on this one incessantly
Valkoor952 05.19.16	They were fighting because Cap's team were breaking the fucking law and were going to escape out of the country ... jesus how hard is it to understand such a simple plot.
Insurrection 05.19.16	the movie is literally called "civil war". if you want an evil force destroying the world watch an avengers movie