Nikkolae: | Sputnikmusic

Nikkolae 12.24.21	I understand that predatory and abusive behaviour is always a determining factor into a lot of these cases, but it seems to be such a personal thing that i find it hard to believe there is an actual way to separate the artist from their art without relying on some pretty heavy personal biases, just my two cents, i believe that you cannot separate the artist from the art, and if you choose to continue to support them the least you can do is own up to that.
menawati 12.24.21	well, some gary glitter songs are sort of catchy
menawati 12.24.21	would you stop using light bulbs if you found out edison was a bit of a c**t ?
Pon 12.24.21	For the purpose of listening, yes For financially supporting them, no
rage11111ro 12.24.21	In principle yes, let's step outside the music realm for a second: sculpture or movie making, why would it matter who's the author. On the other hand , what I've noticed reading/hearing interviews with band members I often see that the ones that share my (many of) my views on life are also highest in my preferences. As well, when I hear something I do not like about a band (yaitw, for instance) it takes away from the charm of the music. Nevertheless, nothing managed to truly stir me away from Burzum though, self-defence, right?:)
Nikkolae 12.24.21	@menawati bro wat
rage11111ro 12.24.21	@pon, very well put
Pheromone 12.24.21	not if it's fucking lostprophets
CottonSalad 12.24.21	"would you stop using light bulbs if you found out edison was a bit of a c**t ?" I'd watch this sitcom tbh
Drifter 12.24.21	kinda depends from case to case and how invested i already am into them like my favorite singer is still r kelly cause i just cant give him up but if its an artist i dont know already and theyre totally shit people then its easy to just avoid them
Nikkolae 12.24.21	@rage i'd forgotten all about YAITW i used to love jamming to those guys but fuck them for real
porcupinetheater 12.24.21	Equating addiction with abuse and predation is as yikes a take as I've seen in awhile
Havey 12.24.21	it's christmas
Nikkolae 12.24.21	@drifter, I grew up hard with Michael Jackson and he remains such an integral part of my musical upbringing, but i just cant do it for him anymore, i just hate how he, in my opinion, tainted my memories
sonictheplumber 12.24.21	i just farted
YoYoMancuso 12.24.21	putting Lostprophets as the first artist on this list was a choice
YoYoMancuso 12.24.21	also we do not disrespect michael jackson - thriller in this household
CottonSalad 12.24.21	"it's christmas" LOL
menawati 12.24.21	"it's christmas" that xmas song slade did he makes 500k a year from that i read today, thanks noddy for your shit song
Drifter 12.24.21	"putting Lostprophets as the first artist on this list was a choice" lmao
Deez 12.24.21	kinda depends from case to case and how invested i already am into them' This. And how open I will be with myself about this my hypocrisy. I won't give up DSO even though I know the singer is an absolute worm. And even though many DSO lyrics are open to interpretation the fact (is it even a fact) he doesn't write them gives me an excuse card. With daughters for example I love AM lyrics and can't lovingly enjoy his dark take on life knowing he's been slipping it into his sleeping girlfriend at night. YAITW as mentioned seemed pretty obvious once they dissapeared the day after yet I have friends if friends who carried in dating that guy. So yeah...as drifter said. You can..but it's usually just cos your a massive hypocrite and not invested in the band anyway and case by case.
Nikkolae 12.24.21	"putting Lostprophets as the first artist on this list was a choice" cant get any worse than ian and there are people who still stand this band
Deez 12.24.21	I mean some dudes got a fking Ian Watkins mug shot tattoo ffs
ArsMoriendi 12.24.21	Agreed with Pon
menawati 12.24.21	if I found out one of my favourite artists was an aggressive vegan I'd never fucking listen again
Nikkolae 12.24.21	"Equating addiction with abuse and predation is as yikes a take as I've seen in awhile" im not sure of abuse as I am not aware of jonny doing something like that but i was talking about predation for scaming people out of money for the mac thing, which is defo a fucked up thing but not anywere near that bad for people to hate the dude that much, dunno if he has done anything else.
Divaman 12.24.21	Yes.
Gyromania 12.24.21	"Can you truly separate art from the artist" if you couldn't then i'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to enjoy a lot of things that extend well beyond just art. the only time i see it being a problem is when the awful things they've done are prevalent in their artistry. if there's no connection between the two, then why tf wouldn't you be able to enjoy the art?
Deez 12.24.21	the only time i see it being a problem is when the awful things they've done are prevalent in their artistry.' [2]
Hyperion1001 12.24.21	no, you cant. but that doesnt mean if you experience a medium you tacitly support its values. as long as you are aware of what you consume, the simple act of experiencing cannot in and of itself be bad.
Egarran 12.24.21	I find it very easy yes
JKing92 12.24.21	For me, it really depends on the artist. As YoYo points out, Michael Jackson's Thriller is still fantastic (as is Off the Wall), regardless of Jackson's actions throughout the last twenty years of his life. Similarly, the (arguably worse) allegations against Marilyn Manson have not diminished my love of Mechanical Animals (even though that's the only album I truly love from him), while, regardless of Eric Clapton's stances on COVID, I'm still a huge Cream fan, I love "Layla," and I think 461 Ocean Boulevard is a really good album too. That said, in the case of artists whose awful actions are reflected (and especially glorified) in the music that they make, that's when I start to hesitate a bit in this area. One could easily argue that Manson falls under this category (though I don't think this presence looms as large on Mechanical Animals as it does on his other albums), but I'm talking about guys like 6ix9ine, Burzum, R. Kelly, etc, whose actions can't be as easily separated from the music itself due to their actions often being somehow connected to the songs themselves (see 6ix9ine's songs glorifying thug culture and coercing girls into sex, Burzum's songs that extol the virtues of neo-Nazi and white supremacist viewpoints, and R. Kelly's numerous sex songs, which are nearly impossible to listen to without thinking of the allegations that have dogged him throughout the last quarter century). When it comes to these three, they aren't as easy in the dilemma of separating the art from the artist, because their actions often cast a strong shadow over the material they're singing (and are often explicitly about their behaviors). While Clapton and Jackson have written songs that border on this territory (actually, Clapton's anti-lockdown/vaccine songs have overtly reinforced his recent beliefs), the reprehensibility of 6ix9ine, Varg, and Kelly are essential to so much of their catalog that many attempts to judge their music wind up turning around into thinkpieces on them as people. Ultimately, even if people like "Fefe," "Dunkelheit," or "Ignition," that doesn't mean they're obligated to unquestionably praise them for everything they've done. They should just admit that they've exhibited awful judgment and behavior, and just keep listening to the music if they want to. After all, even if it's not as easy to separate the art from the artist in those situations, who is anyone to try to stop them from listening to these artists if they want to? Everyone's headphones are different, after all.
Egarran 12.24.21	OK I admit I refuse to listen to R Kelly, but otherwise yes
Nikkolae 12.24.21	i think you summed up my thoughts better than I ever could
Supercoolguy64 12.24.21	Did amy winehouse beat her partners or somethin why she here lmao
JKing92 12.24.21	That threw me off, too. I don't know what problematic behavior Amy Winehouse indulged in, other than the drug and alcohol use that unfortunately claimed her life too soon.
menawati 12.24.21	she just fked herself up didnt she ?
evilford 12.24.21	Yeah Amy w. threw me off. Don't think she really fits in this convo unless I missed something
Nikkolae 12.24.21	i guess my intention was to say that some of amy's fans view her issues as something that adds an edge to her musical catalogue, not that she was problematic herself, at least, again, not that i am aware of,
menawati 12.24.21	if we are going down the road of musical artists whose inspirations/image were fueled by substance abuse then its a long long road ;)
evilford 12.24.21	I just read ur blurb in her description at the top. Yeah self-destructive behavior is obviously not good but it's not like the rest of these. You say she's a troubled woman like it's somehow a malicious act on her part to be that way. I dunno, she doesn't belong in this convo imo but w/e it's your list
evilford 12.24.21	Yeah if drug addiction/alcoholism is as problematic as these other scenarios we should probably just shut sputnik down now lol
evilford 12.24.21	Like I dont see someone with chronic alcoholism on the same level as actual rapists and murderers. Then again, I've never really listened to her music so I could just be talking out of my ass, maybe it's more problematic than I know
Nikkolae 12.24.21	i dont believe its really a big deal, but i do see coments thrown towards jonny craig for being a junky done in a more malicious way, and that got me thinking what context was I missing that makes it part of a artists character in one case or reprehensivle in the other one, i think amy was a wonderful artist that was plagued by her own demons and that is terrible, and im sure jonny craig is also a flawed human as well, but people tend to hate him a lot more, again if he has done other shit aside the macbook stuff im not aware.
Nikkolae 12.24.21	"Like I dont see someone with chronic alcoholism on the same level as actual rapists and murderers. Then again, I've never really listened to her music so I could just be talking out of my ass, maybe it's more problematic than I know" i can understand this, and yeah i know, thats why I only wrote about about these two artist in particular, the others I am absolutely sure there is no need to even go into what they did, as it is understandably horrible in all of their cases.
evilford 12.24.21	No idea who that is lmao.
gschwen 12.24.21	I guess it's easy enough to choose not to listen to certain artists if you feel strongly about it, but when I consider my overall participation in society, it's fraught with support for terrible causes and people: factory farming, gasoline, plastic, social media and internet conglomerates, international cruises, slave labor, animal testing, anti-worker, food waste, next day shipping, global warming. I've gotten good at looking the other way on a lot of things, music is not an exception.
combustion07 12.24.21	I honestly separate the two very easily but I also tend to not look into the life story of the artists I jam much. The only ones I tend to know facts about are the ones that are problematic and that normally comes to my attention because someone else brings up that they shouldn't be supported.
Deez 12.24.21	true, true Gswen But there's literally a billion other records I could listen to...the pools not that small
Nikkolae 12.24.21	I find that really interesting Gschewn, i generally agree with what you have said, the only nueance i see is that music, or musical artists in particual alway state that their music is a very personal representation of who they are and their beliefs, while many big mega stars are basically corporations themselves, smaller artists like Daughters or YAINTW are not, so one must presume that their art is in fact more indicative of who they are as people.
EoinCofa 12.24.21	You can enjoy the art from anyone. However, if you defend or deny their criminal/predatory actions or behaviors because of your fanaticism or loyalty to the artist; well then you’re kind of a piece of garbage. An allegation is simply just allegation, no need to rush to judgment, as it can be truthful, a yarn of lies, or a mix of both. When the allegation develops into fact or multiplies and reveal independent similarities; probably better off not to voice support for the accused (but you can still jam their tunes - MM’s Mechanical Animals and BN’s The Devil and God are great!!!)
evilford 12.24.21	Agreed mostly with combustion
ReiniEden 12.24.21	Probably the easiest thing to do honestly, Arghoslent is a killer band, but fuck their beliefs.
Emim 12.24.21	Yes. Next question.
Purpl3Spartan 12.24.21	(2)
arf 12.25.21	if I found out one of my favourite artists was cringe I'd never fucking listen again
arf 12.25.21	jokes aside, pretty much what @pon said find out artist is outspoken about some kiddy-tier cringe beliefs? guess I'm exclusively pirating your music
JohnnyoftheWell 12.25.21	case by case duh, unless you're the kind to completely cut artists out of your life based on their evidenced misdemeanours, it's never made sense for me to generalise over this (beyond not supporting, which should be a given) however, i find it interesting when people pull a volte face over cases like lacey and Marshall when the former's self-pitying toxicity and the latter's narcissistic misanthropy were always overtones in their music and obvious from wider awareness, even if we didn't know the worst details. i'm not gonna kid myself over having found shit like Me vs. Maradona and whatever rabid Daughters s/t stuff uncomfortably gratifying, and I think it's much more valuable to revisit those experiences and apply that new awareness for better or worse than to cut them out entirely as though pretending you never found their gross qualities attractive or had no sense of what they really were is gonna change anything about you
Mort. 12.25.21	before answering whether you can separate art from the artist, you need to answer what it even means to do so. i am very intelligent
JohnnyoftheWell 12.25.21	(sorry oops sent half my comment by mistake i am also very intelligent)
Mort. 12.25.21	but seriously, whenever i see this question come up the responses are invariably a bunch of people talking past eachother because nobody ever bothered to spend the time outlining what it even means in the first place to separate an artist from their art. what people seem to be asking most of the time (if the answers are anything to go by) is something like a normative question along the lines of 'is it ethically acceptable for me to enjoy and find satisfaction/meaning/the sublime in artworks that were created by evil or problematic people/created under ethically questionable conditions'. a lot of people also answer this question as if its an empirical one asking 'is it possible to find enjoyment in art created by shitty people' so they go 'yeah when i listen to lost prophets i enjoy it cos i honestly just forget about ian watkins etc' ppl have also interpreted the question in other ways that im too lazy and tired to type out honestly i think its just a weird question that needs a lot of clarification and is so open its a tad pointless/reductive mort thoughts
arf 12.25.21	I am certainly able to separate art from artist when the artist is a good person but the music is horrible
widowslaugh123 12.25.21	John Lennon wrote a few good songs
JohnnyoftheWell 12.25.21	" 'is it ethically acceptable for me to enjoy and find satisfaction/meaning/the sublime in artworks that were created by evil or problematic people/created under ethically questionable conditions'." honestly, given how motivated music consumption within our qt bubble of nerddom is by some combo of indulging whatever aesthetic/emotional/whatever cravings in a largely self-centred way or embarking on a big ol' Quest For Knowledge in an often probably more largely self-centred way, I find it borderline hypocritical to demand the precious art we've been binging to the point of commodity be somehow actively ethical just bc aww peace of mind. was that consumption ever about ethics, or was it just you and what-you-want? doesn't seem like a big deal to be honest about this to me. like, if you're gonna eat that cake, just fuckin eat it. only question is whether you should have stolen or paid for it in advance am tired, mort fix my brain
Brabiz 12.25.21	Who cares
Havey 12.25.21	sm0k
evilford 12.25.21	Peepee poopoo
Nikkolae 12.25.21	"whenever i see this question come up the responses are invariably a bunch of people talking past eachother because nobody ever bothered to spend the time outlining what it even means in the first place to separate an artist from their art." that's very fair and i for one am glad that this list hasn't devolved into those type of "Debate me bro" kinda threads "doesn't seem like a big deal to be honest about this to me. like, if you're gonna eat that cake, just fuckin eat it. only question is whether you should have stolen or paid for it in advance" the commodification of art does indeed add a different layer to the discussion of these type of issues, for me morally, I understand there are a lot of things that i consume that are probably not the best (e.i. cellphone with conflict minerals, child exploitation with fruits and vegos that are imported) but a lot of those things are not something I myself as a consumer have a way of changing, i just feel that at least in the explicit case of music, Music is a representation of the Musician and thus if I find the artist morally abhorrent, i kinda feel the same way with their music.