AlkemestRedux: | Sputnikmusic

AlkemestRedux 09.20.26	We debate
Josh D. 09.20.26	There are a lot MIDI grooves online you can get, mix and match, edit, etc. Mixed with your own programming, you can do a lot. That's how I've always made drum tracks.
cylinder 09.20.26	nothing wrong with programming long as it sounds good
Eakflanderyof 09.20.26	As a drummer, my opinion is see if you can find a session drummer willing to do it for a grand. Maybe 1.5k. It's worth it imo
BAT 09.20.26	programmings a good skill to learn cause it'll build up your general knowledge of sequencing which can applied to pretty much any electronic based songwriting. once you've got your head around how beats and structure works thaaan you work on creating feel. there's plenty of free playstore 16bar drum sequencer apps to get started with buuut if your going all in on diy recording you may aswell learn how to sequence in a daw. looking around can get some free vsts/loops/samples buuut even like professional grade drumset vsts are likeee 30-50bucks now, it's a good time to get into it cause there's a lot of options
AlkemestRedux 09.20.26	I do have some basic drum programming knowledge from using Ableton to make a couple shitty dubstep songs back in the day but they were pretty basic. I have Reaper now and use it to track guitars but the thought of learning to program anything kind of makes my brain hurt. But at the same time it may also be easier than trying to wrangle a drummer in today's economy. Although a studio drummer may be good too. Do they write the parts as well? Or should I have basically everything thought through and just relay that to them?
BAT 09.20.26	Oddly enough like 15 years out of date fruity loops is my favorite thing to program drums in, but it's awful for tracking/live instruments. I've dabbled in reaper/Ableton but not enough to sequence in them, my friend that makes super technical breakcore stuff swears by vertical trackers like renoise and opentracker2 And never worked with a pro drummer but for session guys main thing you'd probably want is to have the song arranged definitively so they can map out fills and tempo
budgie 09.20.26	you dont need to be a good drummer for this embrace the punk origins of black metal listen to the drums in sodom's outbreak of evil, second half of celtic frost's visions of mortality, gorgoroth's begravelsesnatt. the exploited's uk 82, sacrilege lifeline, burzum stemmen fra tarnet the good shit. sloppy offtime drunk plodding amateur drums with dbeats thrown in is black metal as fucking fuck
Hyperion1001 09.20.26	programmed drums always sound bad.
BAT 09.20.26	I think they work best when they kind of avoid being a "replacement" and people embrace the inhuman nature, buut tbh almost all modern metal production uses samples so it's not too far off from programmed. Buuut than you get into a lack of uniqueness: most 2000s metal programmed drums always sound like the tomas samples from catch 22, because they're using those exact samples(ezdrummer drumkit from hell iirc.) If you are trying to pass programmed drums off as real you've gotta pay attention to hit velocity to create dynamics, annnd intentionally move stuff slightly off beat to create a more organic feel. Most triggered/electronic drums use the hit velocity hence it keeps more of a dynamic than generic programmed drums, some bands just keep them all maxed which is where you get the obvious crappy stuff Regardless drummers are usually better at coming up with beats than a guitarist, for demoing thoo programmed is a great tool to build with. Even playing to premade loops is a great way to come up with riffs or tighten up your guitar playing
Eakflanderyof 09.20.26	I'll just say, a buddy of mine is actually writing and recording his own black metal album and he's hiring a pretty well known bm drummer who's popular on IG and has played in some pretty big bands and the rates arent bad at all. If you've got even just a little extra cash to spare I'd recommend going that route... but like someone else said, you should obviously have all the initial work done so they dont have to put effort into anything but recording
brickhed 09.21.26	as someone who's coming to the same crossroads, i'm much more willing to try to do them myself. right now i'm focused on taking my project from bedroom to something more concrete. my small town barely has anyone who likes extreme metal, and most metal acts don't get anything more than underground shows, which I don't have access to. i feel that i'm good with drum beats, and i've been wanting to learn them anyway. but if you want to go that route, nothing's wrong with "blast beat here, skank beat there" type of songwriting. the main thing is stamina, though. i second "sloppy offtime drunk plodding amateur drums with dbeats thrown in is black metal as fucking fuck"
AlkemestRedux 09.21.26	Yee the idea of learning some basic drumming sounds kinda cool to me. I live in a townhome so I wouldn't be able to have a full kit, but we do have a shitty digital kit kicking around. Maybe I could learn on that and then go track on a rental jam room kit.
Eakflanderyof 09.21.26	Yeah, if you really dont care about being fancy and you just want some raw, maybe slightly sloppy black metal drumming then I'd say yeah anyone can pretty much learn to to do traditional blast and d beats at slower tempos. If you put a little time in you can probably even get those tempos up to the 150-160 range without too much effort. It would probably be refreshing to hear a bm album with sloppy drumming nowadays with everyone being so concerned with technicality and precision. I actually prefer raw, sloppy live drumming over something that is obviously programmed. The human element is important to me Drumming is addicting though. Dont be surprised if you find yourself immersed in learning more 😉
Josh D. 09.21.26	"programmed drums always sound bad." Don't think I can agree with that.
Gameofmetal 09.21.26	Absolutely learn. It's really hard to find session drummers as well as plan around their in-demand schedules, it'll teach you stuff about composition in the meantime, help you get a demo off the ground for cheap.
Hyperion1001 09.21.26	"Don't think I can agree with that." they only sound good if theyre very obviously not trying to emulate a real drumkit, like how industrial bands use drum machines and stuff. if its a stand-in for a real drummer it is 100% always bad.
Josh D. 09.21.26	Getgood Drums m8
Eakflanderyof 09.21.26	Ive heard some pretty convincing drum programming but it has to be done by someone who knows what they're doing... so, more than likely, if you dont know much about drumming or drum programming then I'd say go for real drums whether it be your own playing or hiring a session guy "It's really hard to find session drummers as well as plan around their in-demand schedules" Guy in my band had no problem. He literally messaged the one guy he wanted and got his songs back with drums within days lol. Just definitely have all your ducks in a row before you ask them to lay down the drums. You dont want to have to pay them extra to re record something or encountered any problems that hinder the process
Emim 09.21.26	Yeah programmed drums can sound really good. There are a lot of production tricks to mask that's what it is. As a drummer I always prefer the real thing, but also as a drummer, finding one can be pretty hard lol
Deathconscious 09.21.26	The answer is always real drummer.
Josh D. 09.21.26	If you're doing solo work, here's an example of what you can do: https://spieglass.bandcamp.com/track/dead-before-the-fire That's the last song I made. The first minute is layered with orchestral drums for effect, but everything after is just my go-to drum library. I programmed (by which I mean drew in MIDI notes on a piano roll) the first half, the second half is MIDI grooves I drag-dropped on the project. I don't know a drummer (other than myself), let alone one that can record professionally.
climactic 09.22.26	knowing how to program drums is a great skill to have for writing and making demos and whatnot, so i'd recommend getting a couple GGD drum libraries regardless of everything else. having good sounding drums to write riffs over makes it a lot more fun to put songs together as far as putting out finished music though, the more organic/raw/diy/etc the style you're going for is, the worse they're gonna sound if used in the final product. if you're going for anything along the lines of these albums stylistically, midi drums are gonna sound shit. it can work in proggy/djenty stuff like Josh posted above, but programmed drums really have no place in black/death metal or adjacent genres imo
Eakflanderyof 09.22.26	^ What's annoying is a ton of bm has programmed drums though and i turn it off immediately every time. I kind of get it for stuff like paysage with like 14 minute repetitive songs. But even then I'd rather him track real drums and loop it
climactic 09.22.26	yeah paysage is kind of an exception because all the elements just kind of wash together into a big hypnotic wall of sound, but i agree it'd be better with real drums
Josh D. 09.22.26	By the way, Reaper has a humanize function where you can have it adjust the midi notes both in velocity and timing. The more you move the slider, the more off the piano roll grid the notes move (somewhat randomly, not all evenly) and the velocities adjust. So coupled with using much less modern processing than what I do, you can achieve a little of what everyone is describing. But I’m far from an expert on old school black metal and its production, so I can’t speak much on it
SpiritCrusher2 09.24.26	Depends on the sound you're going for, but as a drummer, I always prefer the real deal. Good luck finding a metal drummer tho haha, we're a rare breed. Except if you choose the route of having a session drummer just for recording the parts, but in that case it would be good if you already have the arrangements for them. I've always written drums in guitar pro, then export the midi files a import them into a DAW. You can always try and learn writing/programming, honestly it's not that hard and could turn out to be fun and/or inspiring too.
AlkemestRedux 09.24.26	That does seem to be the consensus that metal drummers are pretty scarce lol I have a buddy who I've been in bands with back in the day who's in a punk band now, and who would be perfect, but he just hurt his shoulder and is very busy all around. Maybe just learning how to program for some demos and then tossing them out there as a proof of concept would be the way initially.
cylinder 09.24.26	"programmed drums are an automatic half-point deduction"
AlkemestRedux 10.03.26	Update: hit up a drummer in my hometown who got extremely excited about it because nobody there likes black metal except him basically. Now time to get some scratch tracks recorded m//