TheAntichrist
05.08.21 | get learnt some knowledge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3EAMFVFWKA |
GhandhiLion
05.08.21 | cringe |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | this is gonna go down well |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Sports is all fucking made up anyways literally who the fuck cares. |
zakalwe
05.08.21 | Competition encourages teamwork, camaraderie, spirit, ambition.
Throw it together with local rivalry, tradition, history and passion and its fucking quality.
Yanks never understand it cos they’re solely interested in money and turning everything into a franchised business interest. |
YoYoMancuso
05.08.21 | gonna be some great discussion about this here on sputnikmusic.com |
gryndstone
05.08.21 | Sports is all fucking made up anyways literally who the fuck cares. [2] |
insomniac15
05.08.21 | Even if you pump estrogen into yourself at an adult age, your body as a male is built stronger than a woman's. Imagine The Mountain competing in women's deadlift competition, it would make no sense. |
rabidfish
05.08.21 | sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports sports |
Valkoor952
05.08.21 | stating the obvious nowadays has become some big "own", it's like being proud of telling a schizophrenic "those voices in your head? they're not real bro" with some self-aggrandizing sense of virtue meanwhile it is already painfully obvious to every normal person within a radius of a million miles
just don't engage |
zakalwe
05.08.21 | The mental health olympics. Stick it on the tele. |
botb
05.08.21 | Lmao here come the neck beard posters en masse |
chemicalmarriage
05.08.21 | Fuck yeah! Sports! |
RadioSuicide
05.08.21 | "Sports is all fucking made up anyways literally who the fuck cares." dreadful take |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Thing is I don’t think this actually decreases the competitiveness of the sport - if anything the issue of trans athletes has brought more attention to women’s sports which people already care way less about than men’s and in practice trans athletes who succeed end up having their success called into question by so many (not to mention exposing themselves to lots of danger) that it hardly matters. Sure it’s not the fairest thing in the world but that’s what happens by when you continue to define these things but the rather nebulous notion of gender/sex. Imo you either create more “objective” physical metrics that aren’t intertwined with the shifting concept of gender (and no, biosex doesn’t work; dividing binarily is lazy no matter what) or you accept this. Sports are inherently founded on unfairness anyways. And people only care about this in the case where trans athletes actually have the chance of winning, nobody really cares about trans men competing with cis men or trans women who are merely average so really this seems to me inherently founded on some level of transphobia or at least an outdated notion of gender/sex. |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Don’t know why I put in the effort to write all that but figured let’s see what happens lol |
RadioSuicide
05.08.21 | better take |
Parallels
05.08.21 | reading replies today like
https://bdn-ss-tc.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2019/08/Washburn-Vietnam-Wall-640x400.jpg |
DavidYowi
05.08.21 | @theBoneyKing This is really thought out, I really appreciate your post. The thing about "objective" physical metrics is that hormone replacement therapy does effect how your muscles work. Like when I started estrogen and spiro my muscles got significantly weaker. And of course no two bodies are the same, so trying to put an objective qualification on something as varied as human bodies, especially when you consider the effects of hrt, is really futile. |
MO
05.08.21 | caitlyns right. a dude who transitions still went through puberty with elevated levels of testosterone and therefore is going to be developed like a man, even with artificially lower testosterone levels that are suppressed in order to compete.
It diminishes the integrity of women's sports since the women are at a huge disadvantage |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Yeah Yowi, I’m not trying to imply that that “objective” metric would be easy to calculate; my point is more that when people start going down the “trans women shouldn’t compete with cis men” route they start pulling out these biological metrics like estrogen and bone density (assuming that these are universal things anyways which of course they aren’t) and so I’m kind of calling them on that and saying that if that’s what you claim to actually care about then make that the actual metric you use rather than gender or number of X chromosomes. Anyways though I’m just a cis man who admittedly doesn’t care about sports so my take should be taken with a massive grain of salt. |
GhandhiLion
05.08.21 | @mo
your post is so confusing to read |
MO
05.08.21 | Fixed put in the wrong word |
Snake.
05.08.21 | who gives a fuck what that old hag has to say
her views about anything in general are just as abhorrent too |
botb
05.08.21 | @davidyowi
Thanks for your insight homie, I know you are probably used to dumb people talking about stuff they don’t know about it but don’t let these dorks bother you |
CaliggyJack
05.08.21 | This debate is always pointless because the two sides are fundamentally and permanently opposed to each other.
The crux of the debate is either you A. Believe men are biologically stronger than women (so you oppose trans athletes in women's sports). or B. Believe women are just as capable of the same level of strength as men (so you support trans athletes in women's sports).
Whichever one you believe neither side will ever truly acquiesce to the other because there is so much conflicting information about the topic from different sources. Leaving the whole debate in a perpetual deadlock. |
GhandhiLion
05.08.21 | sounds like a false dichotomy to me |
CaliggyJack
05.08.21 | Whether or not there are other options, most talk around these debates center on those two viewpoints. |
zakalwe
05.08.21 | The sociologists who have no interest whatsoever in the world of sport dictate to those who do how it should be played and why they are wrong for thinking otherwise.
Causes a lot of issues when there wasn’t one to start with. |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Pretty sure I didn’t really engage either of those viewpoints in my points above Jack. It’s definitely a more complex tissue than you’re making it out to be. Though I guess I kind of created a dichotomy myself lol. |
GhandhiLion
05.08.21 | uhhhhh actually, I think you'll find that sociologist are very interested in sport lmao |
nol
05.08.21 | We like sports and we don’t CARE who knows |
CaliggyJack
05.08.21 | Horse Racing is the only sport I give a fuck about
Though I do enjoy eSports and the occasional Bellator and Streetbeefs |
zakalwe
05.08.21 | Yeah the terraces back in the day were mobbed with sociology students.
‘YOUR GONNA GET YOUR FUCKIN HEAD KICKED IN!!! and by that I dissociate myself from both the tribal aspect of the game and the previously chanted phrase which suggests dominance by physical strength within the accepted societal parameters’
YOU FUCKIN BLIND REF!!!!’ |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | really odd that these type of discussions never include Trans Men... |
Snake.
05.08.21 | i mean it's already odd enough that republicans are actually conveying somewhat of an interest to women's sports now when leagues like the wnba have been a common punching bag of theirs for like the past twenty years |
nol
05.08.21 | The one thing I’ll say is it’s extremely reductive to say “sports are made up who cares.” Lots of people dedicate their lives and well being to that made up fantasy. Is art appreciation really that different in that aspect? |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Yeah that was my somewhat intentionally fire-stoking reductive take, hope my other posts make it clear I don’t really believe that. |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Art appreciation is somewhat different though because it doesn’t have the same level of competition and supposed objectivity associated with it. |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | sports are really 5/10 imho |
nol
05.08.21 | there is so much competition in art lol |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Lol imagine if people rated sports/sport games like that, would be kinda hilarious |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | a light 4.5 to a strong 5
TRANS...
...ITION |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | I didn’t say there isn’t competition in art but it’s obviously less important in art than in sports. |
Colton
05.08.21 | If you are taking steroids it is obviously unethical to compete against people of the same gender who are not taking steroids. Like Mack Beggs who was taking steroids to transition to a man and then just destroying every woman he faced in wrestling. But they should have just let him compete against men like he wanted to so that’s on the athletic commissions honestly. But I don’t think someone who’s born a man transitioning to a woman should be allowed to compete in combat sports with women. It’s just dangerous and unfair. Can’t speak for other sports cause I don’t know enough about them |
Valkoor952
05.08.21 | "Whichever one you believe neither side will ever truly acquiesce to the other because there is so much conflicting information about the topic from different sources. Leaving the whole debate in a perpetual deadlock."
lol "conflicting information"
it's about as conflicting as trying to figure out which side of the road you're supposed to be fucking driving on |
nol
05.08.21 | it’s not as clear cut yes. but no. |
nol
05.08.21 | Valkoor952
if pole dancing\'s an art you know how many fuckin artists i know |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | so is any type of b i o l o g i c a l advantage not allowed? damn gotta get Michael Phelps on the phone and tell him to send his Olympic medals back |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | @Colton, I don’t know much about combat sports but aren’t they already controlled for by metrics like weight? If so shouldn’t that kinda negate the issue? |
Colton
05.08.21 | Are you suggesting that if a 145 pound man fights a 145 pound woman that’s safe and fair? Come on |
nol
05.08.21 | b i o l o g y
c h e m i s t r y
s c i e n c e
l u n c h b r e a k |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | i weigh 180 pounds and i am sure my 100 pound wife could kick my ass. |
nol
05.08.21 | I’d pay to watch tbh |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | I’ll claim ignorance there Colton because yes I don’t know what the issue is. At the very least I don’t see how it’s significantly more dangerous. |
rabidfish
05.08.21 | Science ain't objective enough to ever solve this issue. All we've got is studies and statistics and you know that shit can be manipulated into saying whatever you want em to. I'll only say that theres plethora of aspects that should be taken into consideration beyond physical attributes when it comes to this particular argument |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | I mean I kinda think combat sports shouldn’t be a thing anyways but consenting adults can do what they want within limits. Nobody is forcing a trans man to fight a cis man. |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | You’re not wrong rabid and there probably isn’t a perfect answer to this question but I’m gonna side with the one that doesn’t align with the bigots. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
Colton
05.08.21 | Boney I can’t tell if you’re trolling or not because I’ve never in my life heard someone sincerely make this argument but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt
There are vast, vast differences in strength and explosiveness between men and women. Testosterone is the main factor in the difference between men and women’s athletic ability, and men also have much higher bone density, more muscle strands and strength in connective tissue, which doesn’t go away even after transitioning. If men fought women the women would lose 99.9% of the time. Hopefully that doesn’t sound sexist, it’s just true. Acknowledging that gender can be a fluid concept doesn’t mean we can just act like there aren’t huge biological differences between men and women’s bodies |
Colton
05.08.21 | “I mean I kinda think combat sports shouldn’t be a thing anyways” lol wtf |
nol
05.08.21 | “but I’m gonna side with the one that doesn’t align with the bigots.”
reductivist take #2 |
nol
05.08.21 | sports! |
nol
05.08.21 | heck yeah! TOUCHDOWN BB |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html
there are *biological* woman that naturally produce more testosterone than their peers and are forced to reduce their "unfair" advantage to be more competitive, while male athletes are praised for it, the illusion of fairness in sports is just that, an illusion. |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Again noler I think I’ve pretty clearly articulated that that’s far from my only reason lol. |
nol
05.08.21 | if that’s the case then don’t say stupid reductivist shit that doesn’t benefit the conversation in any way |
nol
05.08.21 | ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Dude we are having this discussion on a music website |
Colton
05.08.21 | @Nikkolae that’s a complex topic but it’s fundamentally different than what we’re discussing here. We’re not talking about people’s natural biological abilities, we’re talking about the ethical implications of taking steroids and hormones which greatly change your biological abilities, and then competing against people who don’t have that same advantage |
nol
05.08.21 | @boner: yes |
Colton
05.08.21 | I think Caster Semanya should be allowed to compete personally, they shouldn’t be punished for their naturally occurring hormone levels |
Colton
05.08.21 | Actually hmmmm idk. It’s a tough one |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | if a person's biological advantages are arbitrarily dismissed dont ya think that it might be the same way as with the arguement "hormone therapy gives trans woman an unfair advantage" |
nol
05.08.21 | no she should definitely be able to compete and the fact they are forcing her to lower her hormone levels is very fucked up |
nol
05.08.21 | that would NEVER be considered as a possibility in men’s sports |
Colton
05.08.21 | Yeah but that’s because her test levels would be well inside the normal range for male athletes whereas her test levels exceed the normal range for women. So I’m not saying she shouldn’t be allowed to compete but it’s not as simple as a woman just having high testosterone. She has testes that produce testosterone and is intersex |
AlexKzillion
05.08.21 | I read the entire thread and I actually agree with Colton's takes here damn |
nol
05.08.21 | what are we gonna do, check the testosterone level of every female athlete ever?? Doesn’t that seem a little sexist to you? |
alamo
05.08.21 | cringe |
Colton
05.08.21 | Well their test levels are monitored anyway, cause that’s a big factor in testing for PED use. Same for men. So I don’t think the testing of testosterone levels itself is sexist no |
nol
05.08.21 | but hold them to a completely different standard than men out of some vague sense of pure competition, got it |
Colton
05.08.21 | But they’re not being held to a different standard. It’s just that because women are naturally not as strong or explosive as men due largely to lower testosterone, if they do have test levels that exceed the normal possible range, that’s a huge advantage. But if men had estrogen levels that exceeded the normal range, or test levels that were below that range, it wouldn’t be an advantage, so it wouldn’t call into question the fairness to the other athletes they compete with. It has to do with natural differences in biology rather than double standards. And in this case it has to do with someone who’s biologically intersex, not female, so it’s very much a grey area |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | The case intersex folx is a big part of what blows up the whole notion of using gender or biosex in sports in the first place. |
nol
05.08.21 | no it’s definitely a double standard |
nol
05.08.21 | “But if men had estrogen levels that exceeded the normal range, or test levels that were below that range, it wouldn’t be an advantage, so it wouldn’t call into question the fairness to the other athletes they compete with.”
you could just say the opposite and say men with higher testosterone levels are unfair to those with lower testosterone levels. But they don’t cuz that’s fuckin stupid. |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Exactly @noler. Sports are quite literally *about* unfairness lmfao. |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Like yes not every person is going to maximize their biological potential but the whole thing is designed to celebrate those who do so. |
Cygnatti
05.08.21 | "what are we gonna do, check the testosterone level of every female athlete ever?? Doesn’t that seem a little sexist to you?"
isn't this already standard practice for most pro-athelete?? male or female? |
ian b
05.08.21 | im just gonna write out the link to this hellhole for my suicide note, i dont even want to write your guys' names out, you guys are the fucking worst holy shit |
Colton
05.08.21 | I can't speak for all sports or for the Olympics but it's standard for drug tests to test men's testosterone levels, and if they're higher than what is deemed to be the possible natural range then that's a huge red flag. Whether that constitutes a rule violation in and of itself depends on individual commissions and organizations, because a lot of them only punish people for actual PED violations that they can trace in your blood. But if a man had test levels that are higher than the natural possible range for men, that guy is gonna get a whole slew of drug tests thrown at him to try to catch him for PED use
but the Caster Semanya case isn't really a men vs women issue because she is considered intersex and has testes that produce testosterone, which her competition does not have. That's where the debate about fairness comes into play. To be honest I can understand it from both perspectives, a true grey area imo |
Colton
05.08.21 | yeah cyg it is |
nol
05.08.21 | it still sounds like you are saying men should not be punished for the natural hormonal levels in their bodies, while women should |
Colton
05.08.21 | No I'm saying if men's testosterone levels EXCEED the normal range meaning they are using PEDs then they should be punished for cheating by using PEDs. But if a man had a similar situation as Caster Semanya, ie they are intersex, then their test levels would be below that of the average man anyway (or at least well within the normal range) so there would be no advantage
a woman being intersex gives that woman an advantage over other women. it would obviously not be that woman's fault for being born how they're born but the advantage would still be there. a man being intersex does not give him an advantage over other men. this is the result of natural biological differences, not double standards |
wojodta
05.08.21 | are there many people out there looking to have a sex change so they can dominate womens' sports |
nol
05.08.21 | but a man with absolutely booming levels of natural testosterone gives him an advantage over other men that don't. By your logic he shouldn't be allowed to compete. |
Doibhin69
05.08.21 | I thought this was a music website |
Colton
05.08.21 | no because his test levels would still be inside the normal possible range. meaning the range of testosterone that it is possible for a man to have without using steroids. whereas someone on steroids could have testosterone 10x higher than the upper limit of that natural range. it is extremely unlikely for a man to naturally have test levels that exceed the test levels of other men to a hugely significant extent without being on PEDs. sure there's natural variation there and some men have higher test than others but as long as they're within that normal range that can be attained without drugs then it's fair game. and if someone had test levels that fall below the normal range then they would probably have a very tough time competing against people who are in that range anyway |
nol
05.08.21 | it still sounds like you are saying men should not be punished for the natural hormonal levels in their bodies, while women should [2] |
nol
05.08.21 | smol boi sports league when |
Colton
05.08.21 | I mean I explained this already when I said:
"No I'm saying if men's testosterone levels EXCEED the normal range meaning they are using PEDs then they should be punished for cheating by using PEDs. But if a man had a similar situation as Caster Semanya, ie they are intersex, then their test levels would be below that of the average man anyway (or at least well within the normal range) so there would be no advantage
a woman being intersex gives that woman an advantage over other women. it would obviously not be that woman's fault for being born how they're born but the advantage would still be there. a man being intersex does not give him an advantage over other men. this is the result of natural biological differences, not double standards" |
Colton
05.08.21 | and I'm not even saying she shouldn't be allowed to compete I'm just saying it has nothing to do with male vs female discrimination because there is no equivalent scenario for men |
nol
05.08.21 | no you didn't |
nol
05.08.21 | there quite literally is |
theBoneyKing
05.08.21 | Again. The whole thing is defined by physical/biological advantage and all I see is that our binary system for constraining that just doesn’t fucking work the way many want it to. Or at least is too narrow and we either accept its limitations or throw it out. |
ArsMoriendi
05.08.21 | Caitlyn Jenner is also anti-same sex marriage
Why would anyone give a fuck about her views on LGBT issues? |
Colton
05.08.21 | ok noler I'm open to your viewpoint on this but basically just saying "ummmm no" is not a very compelling argument
@boney you raise a valid point about the existence of intersex people making this a tough situation to gauge but you also gotta keep in mind that someone who was assigned female at birth but has XY chromosomes and testes that produce testosterone will almost always have an advantage over women who do not, assuming other factors are equal or close to equal (cause obviously tall people have an advantage over short people in most sports and stuff like that) |
nol
05.08.21 | ummmm no |
Colton
05.08.21 | fuuck you got me there
also [2] to what ars said lol. that's actually insane that someone can be part of a class of people that's discriminated against so much and then actively discriminate against other groups |
Cygnatti
05.08.21 | the simple and realest solution would be to do away with all gendered sports.
no more WNBA, just have an NBA. but that just makes both parties mad xD |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | "that's actually insane that someone can be part of a class of people that's discriminated against so much and then actively discriminate against other groups"
she used to not support it even when presenting cis, so its not thaaaat surprising |
budgie
05.08.21 | just make all sports illegal except for age of empires 2 1v1 arabia
any other problems i can fix in one sentence |
outliers
05.08.21 | the fact that this is even a debate is hilarious |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | "just make all sports illegal except for age of empires 2 1v1 arabia
any other problems i can fix in one sentence "
definitive or classic??? |
budgie
05.08.21 | definitive |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | good lad |
zaruyache
05.08.21 | [Sports is all fucking made up anyways literally who the fuck cares.] |
budgie
05.08.21 | nikkolae lets play brah |
Nikkolae
05.08.21 | I dont really play on line, im pretty useless but i've loved aoe 2 since i was a literal child haha |
Trebor.
05.08.21 | caitlyn jenner is a moron and no one should care what she has to say about anything |
RadioSuicide
05.08.21 | [2] |
budgie
05.08.21 | r u guys excited for jenner being gov of california |
AlexKzillion
05.08.21 | lol I feel like if there was any societal issue I would actually be interested in hearing Caitlyn Jenner's opinion on, it would literally be this. Regardless of her retarded politics, she's one of the most iconic American athletes ever who has since transitioned. I feel like she is as qualified as anyone to talk about this topic, whatever her take may be |
TheAntichrist
05.08.21 | i could go for some wheaties right now |
nol
05.08.21 | nice list |
RadioSuicide
05.08.21 | "I feel like if there was any societal issue I would actually be interested in hearing Caitlyn Jenner's opinion on, it would literally be this." she uses the ladies tees when she golfs lmao literally a braindead hypocrite with nothing substantial to offer society but shit takes, do not be fooled |
budgie
05.08.21 | yep fuck that bitch |
Gyromania
05.08.21 | Obviously people with male physiology are going to out compete women lol. This has nothing to do with bigotry or anything, it's just common sense. |
budgie
05.08.21 | basically a californian version of trump |
Ebola
05.08.21 | who cares |