Shuyin: Replaying The Last Of Us

Shuyin 06.23.20	Also Reading Blame! again, I just love Nihei, his artwork alone is worth the money. The albums listed above? Just digs, as always
MO 06.23.20	what new one? there's only been one last of us!
Shuyin 06.23.20	Yea, tbh that's exactly how I feel
neekafat 06.23.20	leans too much on cinematics/not having the player interact with a ton of important decisions the characters make is kinda dumb from a design standpoint but otherwise it's an excellent narrative really well told and an engaging game
Ziggity 06.23.20	Re remake is so damn good. Easily my favorite resident evil game.
Shuyin 06.23.20	That's what people told me before playing it but the game got me with the amount of different ways you can deal with the enemies. It was the first time I actually felt I was struggling for survival, combine that with a great story/characters and you got yourself a 10/10 game
Sharenge 06.23.20	I own the original on PS3 but I got the remaster for free on PS4... if I do a replay, is there any reason to go for one over the other?
GhostB1rd 06.23.20	TLOU was awesome, put it on par with U2 for best Naughty Dog game I've played. Haven't played U4 of LL yet tho.
Shuyin 06.23.20	"Re remake is so damn good. Easily my favorite resident evil game." Yes! I'm a huge fan of the original trilogy, still have the originals for the PS. Revisiting the mansion was so odd, I've played the original a LOT but the remake made changes to puzzles and locations while keeping most of the enemy placements and camera angles so what happened is that I started the game thinking I could breeze through it only to get jumped at by the subtle changes. I legitimately got scared about halfway through, just like I did playing the original when I was a kid ahahah this is how you do a remake
Observer 06.23.20	God. Critics are being paid off. Holy shit.
Shuyin 06.23.20	"I own the original on PS3 but I got the remaster for free on PS4... if I do a replay, is there any reason to go for one over the other?" IDK, sorry. I don't have a PS4. If the remaster has anti-aliasing it might be worth checking out, the OG still looks phenomenal even on the PS3 but those rugged edges might piss people off
Dewinged 06.23.20	The remaster at 60 fps is glorious, I replayed it and finished it just a few days ago. Then booted TLOU2 and the drop in frames was kinda depressing, still the game (both of them actually) look gorgeous. Narrative wise, the interaction between Joel and 14 year old Ellie remains unmatched.
Ziggity 06.23.20	I miss having fixed camera angles in resident evil games. I enjoyed 4 and 5 a decent amount but they just never hit me the same as 1-3 did. Never finished 7 even though it wasn’t bad.
Shuyin 06.24.20	The fixed cameras had a certain tension that you just don't get in third person, imo. I love old school RE and Dino Crisis too. "The remaster at 60 fps is glorious, I replayed it and finished it just a few days ago." There you go, feeling kinda jealous now hahaha
JeetJeet 06.24.20	TLOU2 is a masterpiece. Lived up to the hype for me. Gameplay is insane and the story is gutwrenching.
Shuyin 06.24.20	It's cool you dug it, man
Ziggity 06.24.20	What’s TLOU2?
Faraudo 06.24.20	A pretty good game
Ziggity 06.24.20	Sounds pretty good
Dewinged 06.24.20	@Ziggity The Last of Us 2
Gallantin 06.24.20	I replayed TLOU this month on Grounded mode in preparation for the new one. Still holds up. Still plays fantastically. No game has ever made a gun fight with only 3 bullets feel so exhilerating. Will buy TLOU2 this week. I expect it'll be even better. Storywise I don't care too much about either. Much to the chagrin of ppl who never actually played the first game and think it's too cinematic, it's actually quite easy to ignore story stuff entirely and just play for combat and survival scrounging.
Shuyin 06.24.20	"No game has ever made a gun fight with only 3 bullets feel so exhilerating." WELL, on Prototype you can have a MG with only 3 bullets and still take out helicopters, tanks and an entire marine base, so.. :) jk, you can't bring down a base with only 3 bullets, but the helis? np! Just kick those muthafuckas and they go down easy
ConcubinaryCode 06.24.20	Prototype was Hella fun. Shame Activision shuttered the studio. Infamous was fun too but who knows if a game like that will be made again.
Faraudo 06.24.20	"Will buy TLOU2 this week. I expect it'll be even better." I kinda think it's better, more adventurous and interesting. TLOU is an incredible game, but it is a little more straightforward and simplistic.
Gallantin 06.24.20	As much as I love the first game, the core gameplay loop gets a bit stale by the end. All the added stealth and combat mechanics added in 2 make me hopeful it'll have more longevity in its systems.
Shuyin 06.25.20	Finished the game, I played for like 5 hours straight this afternoon. That section in the Uni of Colorado remains my favourite part of the game, and everything beyond that is simply fantastic. And nothing's changed about the sequel for me, I'm still not even remotely interested, this is the real ending of the story for me
ConcubinaryCode 06.25.20	https://www.change.org/p/sony-remake-the-storyline-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii?recruiter=1122585974&recruited_by_id=46e27080-b3e1-11ea-85da-a1e01df83fda&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=petition_dashboard
Shuyin 06.25.20	No, i think asking for a remake just because the fans didnt like it is a dumb idea that could easily get out of hand. I didnt like the new SW trilogy but im not asking for remakes either
ConcubinaryCode 06.25.20	I wouldn't call people asking for a story rewrite "fans". I just found it funny someone made a profile for Joel to start the petition lol.
TheSpirit 06.25.20	the prototype series is a lot of fun, it's like GTA w/powers
Shuyin 06.25.20	Oh i missed that LMAO Yea Prot is batshit crazy, I should check the second game too
GhostB1rd 06.25.20	The introduction of the hatchet at the university is my favorite part of the game. I was rampage Joel one hitting everybody.
Shuyin 06.25.20	Yea and you get the flamethrower too, its OP af
GhostB1rd 06.25.20	I was so disappointed when I first realized how weak Ellie was at brawling. I had to quickly reform my entire playstyle towards stealth.
Shuyin 06.26.20	Didnt like having to kill so many dudes as Ellie, David was well worth it tho
Gallantin 07.02.20	Got to the second half of TLOU2 and my interest in continuing went from 100 to 0 real quick. Nothing like making me start a whole new 15 hour campaign with none of my upgrades following around a bunch of boring characters that are really poorly developed. Ugh just...went from being a really great game to being a very very not good game
Ziggity 07.02.20	Sounds about right.
Shuyin 07.02.20	Spec Ops: The Line did it better, period. Every time I hear something about the new game it just makes me even more uninterested and I'm surely not supporting ND anymore after the shit they pulled
Gallantin 07.03.20	Spec Ops didn't do anything that TLOU2 did, what are you talking about?
Slex 07.03.20	"Don't start a flame war but let me relentlessly talk shit about a game I didn't play and straight up refuse to support the company that made the game i, again, did not play" This is why it's so hard to take criticism of the 2nd game seriously, that's just...so so stupid and over the top lol
Gallantin 07.03.20	I still think Naughty Dog make good games lmao I'm just annoyed that TLOU2 removes player progression halfway through for the sake of a story switcharoo I think the switch of characters would have been easier to stomach if the game started you out as Abby and then switched you to Ellie 15 hours in as a surprise. Bc rn the game needs to do A LOOOOOT of legwork to make me motivated to play as Abby, but if the game was advertised a sequel unrelated to Ellie? Then that legwork to play as Abby would be way easier, bc I would have set my expectations before going in that this is a game with new characters to learn about. And bc we already have a whole other game where we play as Ellie and Joel, if TLOU2 did the switcharoo 15 hours in and suddenly you're playing new as Ellie? It would be easy. The motivation to play as them is pre-existing from the first game. The new game wouldn't need to convince me to spend another 15 hours playing these characters bc i already know and love them. So the real enemy of TLOU2 is poorly thought out pacing (in my mind, anyway). I also would have liked it better maybe if Abby and Ellie swapped chapters consistently throughout the game to make those transitions easier, so then even if I don't like playing as Abby I only have to make it through one chapter before the next one as Ellie, rather than rn being like "we left you on a cliffhanger that'll take 15 more hours as Abby to get to". Just...atrocious pacing. Really killed my motivation to play.
Slex 07.03.20	Loved the game but it definitely had serious flaws, and the pacing is by far the biggest one yeah
Gallantin 07.03.20	I have other issues about the game brutally killing off black and brown people exclusively in cutscenes, and I think the entire concept of the religous cult is a bit too cliche for me (i understand these games are basically buried up to the neck in apocalypse tropes, but this is the first one that adds NOTHING to the story). That's not even to mention that the religious cult is very...native american-coded...and I can't help but feel that's not good optics, but I'm not the one to be pointin that out as a problem, it's just a thought I had.
Slex 07.03.20	The character deaths in general for 2 are definitely overkill at times and add nothing to the story plotwise or thematically
Dewinged 07.03.20	I finished it a few days ago, loved every bit. I was actually hating Ellie by the time I reached the end, and I swear to god I was hating Abby's guts when I started her story. No game has ever messed with my mind like that. Brilliant.
Slex 07.03.20	There's a lot to chew on thematically and engage with, even shit that I hated really made me think. Also yeah Ellie is one of my favorite video game characters ever and I was so fucking pissed at her by the end
Gallantin 07.03.20	I don't know if I'm gonna finish playing it, I simply can't be bothered now. I already started disliking Ellie maybe halfway through her sections of the game, which feels standard to me for a revenge plot. I have lots of smaller issues with plot details involving Abby and Joel but overall yeah I think I'm done with it.
Slex 07.03.20	A certain section of Abby's is my favorite of the game as it presents an interesting parallel to the first game but yeah her section overall is inconsistent
Dewinged 07.03.20	I don't know dudes, two of my favorite sections of the game are Abby's, the rooftop trek and the village on fire. The first one because I also have severe vertigo and made me connect with it on another level (and suffer) and the last one because it was just batshit insane.
Slex 07.03.20	yeah the 2nd part is my favorite section of the game, excluding the ridiculously unnecessary character death that takes place (and that the game immediately forgets about completely too smh)
Dewinged 07.03.20	Oh yeah that one was kinda dumb lol
Shuyin 07.03.20	So stating that I'm not supporting a company because they did something shitty is engaging in a flame war to you? Also a game that turns the main character into a monster is not in a any way similar to SO? K then. "Loved the game" Good on ya
Slex 07.03.20	Stating that much vitriol for something you haven't played yourself just seems tremendously silly to me is all
Shuyin 07.03.20	You do know the entire thing is on Youtube, and you're making a big deal just for me saying the theme is made better on another game and that I'm not interested.
Gallantin 07.03.20	Spec Ops is about the way military shooters condition players to be rewarded for following orders and committing war crimes, not to mention just a criticism of militaristic culture in general. The Last of Us 2 is just a standard revenge plot. Almost every single revenge plot ever does what TLOU2 does. Ellie becoming "evil" by the end is literally what revenge plots are designed for. They're meant to make you question the character's motive and reactions and goals and whether or not it's moral to seek out revenge in order to bring some sort of karmic balance. These games are not even remotely similar in theme or messaging. And much to the chagrin of what other people believe: neither Spec Ops or TLOU2 are trying to "make the player feel bad".
Shuyin 07.03.20	neither Spec Ops or TLOU2 are trying to "make the player feel bad". What? SO isn't trying to make the player feel bad? And TLOU2 introducing the same characters you just killed in order for the player to feel sympathy isn't trying to make you feel bad either? I mean.. wow dude
Shuyin 07.03.20	"Spec Ops is about the way military shooters condition players to be rewarded for following orders and committing war crimes, not to mention just a criticism of militaristic culture in general." And that's not meant to make the player feel bad? Do you personally feel great after committing war crimes and slaughtering your own men? I'm done
Gallantin 07.03.20	The point of games is to not draw a direct parallel between player and character. Characters in both games are not given choices in how these themes play out. Spec Ops creates a story beat that you have no control over: the white phosphorous. It is not your decision as the player. It's something that happens. Would you feel guilty if the main character in a book killed an innocent person? The player can feel bad for the things that happened in these games, that's okay, but the point is not to make the player feel expressly guilty for them happening. If the games gave you a choice in what you did (a la Undertale) the theming would be very different, but these games aren't trying to give you choices, because your choice and your actions play no role in the theming these games are setting up. They are contained stories that don't benefit from your input. They are not about you.
Gallantin 07.03.20	So for instance the way Ellie kills the dog in the game isn't meant to make you feel guilty for killing the dog. You've likely killed like 10 dogs by that point in the game. The dog's death can elicit sympathy and sadness from the player (just look at any movie where a dog dies), but the game at no point holds up a finger and says, "How could you dare to kill that poor innocent animal?" There's a difference.
Shuyin 07.03.20	You cant control a character in a book
Gallantin 07.03.20	You don't control Ellie in TLOU2's narrative either. You control her during typical gameplay, you make decisions: you can stealth past 90% of enemies, you can avoid killing all dogs, you can choose to kill EVERYONE, etc. and the game will make exactly ZERO judgements on you for doing this. But when Ellie chooses to kill Nora? You do not. You do not control her. You press a button the game makes you press because the choice isn't yours. You aren't controlling her in her own narrative here. The narrative choice was made detached from you and your input, just like any character in a movie or book. So why would you personally feel bad or guilty for that happening? Again, you can feel sympathy, you can hate Ellie for doing it, you can feel bad about the events, but the game is not pointing at you and blaming you for the character's choice. And the game flipping the switch and showing you Abby's side of the story isn't blaming you for Ellie's actions either. It's shown multiple times in Abby's story that her and the WLF aren't perfect either, but all the characters just have different ideals and that characters brings those ideals to the role they play in the game. If you played either game and took away the message "wow i sure am a bad person for doing the only thing the game would allow me to do", then you took away the wrong message. Player input does not draw a parallel with player choice. There are games in which player choice is valuable to the narrative, but neither Spec Ops nor TLOU are those games. Spec Ops is not designed to make you feel bad for killing civilians. It's about making you think more carefully of the nature of war, of militarisation, of extremism, of mental health, and of the ways in which other war games would reward you for a similarly brainless task. You don't get any input. It's not about making you feel bad, it's about showing you a more grounded narrative. Feeling bad or feeling upset by "your" actions is to miss the point. The game doesn't want you to feel bad, it wants you to think. It wants other games to do better. The player is a nonpartisan force in Spec Ops. And yeah, that's also a far cry from what TLOU2 is doing, which is not even trying to be meta about anything. It's just a story about two sides with different ideals. Both do bad things. And even in one of Abby's chapters they mull on the untold side of a few Scars who are also generally painted as villains. TLOU2 isn't trying to make anyone feel bad for playing it. It's literally just showing two sides of a THREE sided story and letting the player, a nonpartisan force, make their own decisions about the themes and morals and ideals presented in the story.
Shuyin 07.03.20	Ugh, whatever floats your boat
Gallantin 07.03.20	You're the one trying to compare two completely different games, one of which you haven't even played, and then blaming it for not being as good as the game its not even remotely trying to replicate. There are plenty of reasons to dislike TLOU2, but "it tries to make the player feel bad" isn't one of them
Shuyin 07.03.20	Making me feel bad is not a reason to dislike a game, I loved Spec Ops and Silent Hill 2, those games broke me. There's good execution and bad execution, TLOU2, from what I've seen, is beyond idiotic. Yeah, i didn't play the game, but this game we're talking about is narrative heavy and extremely linear, you can watch this on Youtube. "You're the one trying to compare two completely different games" I'll say it.. one more time, it's the theme, one does it better "You don't control Ellie in TLOU2's narrative either." You control her actions, when she kills someone in the game, you did it, you pushed the buttons, what part of that don't you understand?? It's the simple thing that separates this media from books or movies. Stop raging
Gallantin 07.03.20	The games don't share the same themes. "Make the player feel bad" isn't even a theme. The only people in Ellie's story that she feels guiit over killing are people that are killed in cutscenes that you do not control. I don't know how many times I need to explain that: the Last of Us 2 never guilts the player for their actions and choices in game. You could burn every enemy and dog alive in the game and it does not comment on it. You could avoid killing 99% of enemies and it wouldn't comment on that either. Ellie's development as a character is out of your control and the game does not even once attempt to pin blame or guilt on the player for her actions. The game does not make you feel bad for what you do, and it does not attempt to. Maybe if you actually played the game, you'd feel that. Because you can't watch all the cutscenes on Youtube and then say "wow that didnt work the way spec ops did!!" like some fucking idiot.
Gallantin 07.03.20	Like literally how are you trying to say TLOU2 makes the player feel bad when you literally haven't played it? Just watching it on Youtube means you experienced it as a movie, and any secondhand guilt you felt would be literally just as weird as if you felt guilt watching a main character do that in a movie lmao As someone who has played the game I can tell you pretty emphatically "make player feel bad" is not a theme or occurance that is represented thematically in game and that the game literally never once judges you for choices you make
Gallantin 07.03.20	Also just for the record "make the player feel bad" is most definitely not a "theme" in Silent Hill 2, either
Muppelope 07.03.20	I mean, I think one of the biggest advantages video games have over books or movies is that in actively putting the player in control of the character, whether or not that control is stripped from the player for large portions of the narrative, does lead to the player feeling a certain amount more responsible for the actions of the character. Whether that's misplaced or not really doesn't matter. You're more invested in the story and characters regardless, at least in my own experience. Now, I haven't played TLOU2 either, so I can't speak as to how it handles that burden, but I do think it carries more weight than it would in a book or movie, and if done poorly, would have more negative ramifications to the overall experience.
Gallantin 07.03.20	How you feel as a player in regards to the actions on screen is your own burden, as is the case with any interpretation of any media. All I can say is that there is a stark difference between Spec Ops: The Line using a portion of gameplay to convey a very specific narrative theme about militaristic consumption of human life and how we as an audience interact with war media, and The Last of Us 2 just having a character do morally ambiguous things. TLOU isn't using any specific segment to push a theme or narrative that makes the player evaluate what they've done. Whether or not you instinctively do that just because of your emotional investment to a character is different. The point is that TLOU2 is not actively trying to guilt the player with any specific setpiece (and again, Spec Ops isn't, either, but it is at least trying a very specific thing with one of its setpieces which most people misconstrue with "player=bad")
brainmelter 07.03.20	Hopefully Shuyin doesn’t delete my comment for having a different opinion again but, I like part 2 a lot. I was a huge fan of the first one and I’d argue this one is more affecting in the end. The pacing is awful tho and it’s my biggest complaint with game. And the game isn’t actually about revenge in the end, it’s about forgiveness I absolutely love all the people shitting on the game with silly reasons why without even playing it or even finishing it lmao ND did a really good job with making you feel pissed off when xxxx gets what’s coming to him. All the rage reviews, life imitates art ha
Gallantin 07.03.20	All revenge stories are secretly about forgiveness
Wildcardbitchesss 07.03.20	I def liked Abbys segments more. The hospital, hotel, sniper section, and the island are fucking insane. Ellie’s part is more traditional and what I expected from the game. Still damn good but Some of the set pieces in Abby’s section are just fucking mindblowing. I really don’t understand a lot of the criticism. They made some bold story choices and it paid off brilliantly.
Slex 07.03.20	Abby's infected boss fight in the hospital made me shit my fucking pants lmao JESUS, it's a shame that gameplay wise it was a little annoying imo
Gallantin 07.03.20	I played more of Abby's stuff today. It was okay, I don't like that it seems more action focused. I liked the little aquarium vignette where she finds the notes left by kids who went on to become Scars. I already know everything that happens up until the end so at this point I'm only in it for gameplay, but I do hope the gameplay setpieces get better before the end. I still wish they did all the Abby stuff first before the Ellie stuff.
Wildcardbitchesss 07.03.20	Where are you at Gallantin? Her Day 1 is very underwhelming but Day 2 and 3 have some amazing stuff in it.
Wildcardbitchesss 07.03.20	And yes Slex that fight is intense as hell. I was literally down to a bottle and one pistol round at the end of it. Fucker can take a beating.
CalculatingInfinity 07.03.20	Day 1 Abby is easily the worst part of the game, it picks up after that though.
Slex 07.03.20	Yeah Wildcard I gotta say, the horror stuff in 2 is particularly exceptional, it's actually one of the scarier games I've played personally
CalculatingInfinity 07.03.20	I just watched my friend play it and even then many times I just went "Holy shit".
Wildcardbitchesss 07.03.20	Agreed. The level design in the collapsed hotel combined with Abby’s vertigo makes for some of the most effective horror I’ve played in a while.
CalculatingInfinity 07.03.20	As someone who also has vertigo that was massively uncomfy for me too. Abby's selling of the height was fantastic.
BenThatsMyJamin 07.03.20	Gameplay is improved in 2, but the story is an absolute mess (which is what made the original exceptional in the first place). "Got to the second half of TLOU2 and my interest in continuing went from 100 to 0 real quick. Nothing like making me start a whole new 15 hour campaign with none of my upgrades following around a bunch of boring characters that are really poorly developed." [SEMI-SPOILERS] This is exactly right, the pacing and handling of tension is so haphazard, it makes absolutely no sense and just sucks out every bit of emotion from the game. Whilst I ended up liking Abby somewhat, it's a fight to after what she does early on in the game. It's basic dramatic storytelling to know you set us up to love a character before they do something that deeply conflicts us or happens against another character we love. The mis-ordering of the story and the sheer frequency of deaths completely numbed me to the whole experience. I was only shocked by one thing that happened in the entire game whereas during the first I had constantly been on the edge of my seat, and I had more of a visceral reaction to Sarah dying in 1 after knowing her for 10 mins than to the death of anyone in this, including you-know-who (by the way, that whole scene and its setup was just a disgrace). Just awful storytelling. That's not even mentioning the Abby and Owen scene (just why?) and the writers also clearly had no idea how to end the story... it's like Return of the King if the rest of the film hadn't been good. I don't regret going through it and parts of it were highly enjoyable but it can't even compare to the deft artistry and emotion of the first imo. "I have other issues about the game brutally killing off black and brown people exclusively in cutscenes" Also I can't imagine being so racially obsessed to the point that one would notice this wow, let alone see it as an issue given ND's clear politics lol
BenThatsMyJamin 07.03.20	" I don't care about the new one, but please don't turn this thread into a flame war, let's just talk about this game." Also lol as if you didn't know ppl would just discuss the new one
Shuyin 07.03.20	That's okay, I just didn't want another dumpster fire. I legit wanted to talk about the first game a bit, but now everyone's only mentioning the new one and I'm here like YAWM
Shuyin 07.03.20	On a side note, this weeks game was Red Dead Redemption 1. Absolutely loved it, John and Bonnie are two of my favourite characters in games, their dialogue was so well written I forgot I was playing a game for a moment
Gyromania 07.03.20	last of us 2 is superb, the hate for it is as hilarious as it is embarrassing
Shuyin 07.03.20	resident evil 5 is superb, the hate for it is as hilarious as it is embarrassing
Slex 07.03.20	RE5 is pretty good, way overhated, like a 7.5/10 I would give TLOU2 a strong like 9.3/10
Gyromania 07.03.20	yeah 9 or 9.5 for me. the hivemind mentality and overabundance of hate for it is so unwarranted. there are so many games with subpar stories that get praised but for some reason tlou2 being a revenge plot is just the worst thing to ever happen in gaming lol.
Wildcardbitchesss 07.04.20	Yep same here. I don’t like “scoring” games but the original will forever be a 10/10 in my eyes. And while I do agree with a lot of what Ben is saying, none of that was ever a serious issue to me since I was much more attached to Abby’s relationship with Lev and Yara than any of her other squad mates. Oh and I did like Owen. I think TLOU2 is like a 9 bare minimum. One other thing I wanted to say is that I think the trans representation is done extremely tastefully. I was afraid it would feel shoehorned in from hearing all the epic gamers bitching about it but I felt like Naughty Dog really nailed it here.
Slex 07.04.20	I was pretty surprised how much I ended up liking Owen as well, and Lev is a little badass and his relationship with Abby is wonderful. I will say, Mel is an annoying nag and it's disappointing that that and her being pregnant are literally her only traits lol, severely underwritten character
Wildcardbitchesss 07.04.20	Same with Nora tbh. That’s my biggest let down is that I really didn’t care about any of the people I was taking out as Ellie.
BenThatsMyJamin 07.04.20	"there are so many games with subpar stories that get praised but for some reason tlou2 being a revenge plot is just the worst thing to ever happen in gaming lol." Complete straw-manning of legitimate criticism but that's okay. You don't have to give it a 9+ just to show you're not one of those scary right-wingers who rating bombed it, you know. The criticism of the story is unbelievably warranted, and I don't think many ppl here would be standing up for it if they weren't being reactionary to reactionaries. It's objectively ham-fisted storytelling. It's fine if you really enjoyed the gameplay itself, it was definitely improved over the first, but the emotional connection to such a gripping story and chemistry between characters is why I was invested in the franchise, and this game completely killed that. For that reason, I can't give it more than a 6 " I was much more attached to Abby’s relationship with Lev and Yara than any of her other squad mates." This was my favourite part of the game yeah Wildcard - cool characters and the Yara/Isaac moment was the aforementioned only thing that really shocked me during the playthrough, that was rly cool.
Gallantin 07.04.20	I don't mind anyone loving the game, I don't think it's a bad game by any means, and if someone doesn't have problems with it then that's fine, but it's silly to pretend people are unreasonable for having many criticisms of it. Revenge plots are great, I have no problem with a revenge plot. 90% of my problems with this game stem from its wildly inconsistent pacing issues.
BenThatsMyJamin 07.04.20	^he's right you know
Gallantin 07.04.20	My issue isn't even with having a dual narrative. I believe I wrote much further up in the thread that I actually wish the game started out entirely as Abby's story. Because as the game stands, it's not much a surprise when the game swaps to Abby's story halfway through, it's just an annoyance because it sets game progress back to zero and ends with a cliffhanger that'll take another 15 hours to resolve, and after that kind of commitment to a story, it's very jarring to have to then be told to care about all these new characters. If this game was advertised and developed from Abby's POV from day one, it woulda been so much better to have a total fucking hat-drop 15 hours in where you realise the woman who's been killing off all your people is actually Ellie and then you get to start Ellie's story afresh after playing for 15 hours as Abby. Like how cool would that have been? The game wouldn't feel as jarring because the player would already have such an attachment to Ellie's story from the first game that seeing her pop up 15 hours in would be a crazy cool surprise and then seeing Joel's death would be like hot damn I played as Joel's killer for 15 hours??? idk to me that would have just been 1000x better from a pacing perspective ( even though I think a dual narrative the splits the game into two is poor pacing regardless )
Wildcardbitchesss 07.04.20	Dude I had the exact same thought! That would’ve been perfect. And to go even further with that, have Abby and co. dialogue regarding Joel become more vague and cagey to make the player think they’re talking about some scar or some other villain. Then finding out what Abby really did would be an absolute mind fuck
Gallantin 07.04.20	Yeah, I think if they were vague on Joel and who was killing all her friends during Abby's story and then you finish Abby's story and it's her breaking into the cinema and BAM it's Ellie woulda just fucking broken my brain with plot goodness. Then just fucking piledriving me into the second half of the game with the open Joel and Tommy, Ellie and Dina, Abby killing Joel, my reaction on going into the second half would be: LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOO Instead, going into the second half I felt deflated. I don't know these people. I never got to use the scope I just made for my bow. Ugh why is this opening so boring. Etc. Don't get me wrong, the opening to the whole game is incredible and I love it, but I would far prefer a boring opening to the game with Abby if it meant the second half would be propelled by that initial opening.
Slex 07.04.20	Yeah I totally agree with this take
JeetJeet 07.04.20	My favorite part of TLOU2 is how it takes the "Is one life worth millions" dilemma and examines it through the lens of a revenge story. Joel's choice in the first game was pretty selfish, and in the process of choosing Ellie's life over millions of others, he took someone else's life, not realizing that would come back to bite him in the ass. It all starts this blood-for-blood cycle between 2 characters who really aren't that different from each other. Both go through hell to exact some form of revenge against the other one. I just wish that in the end [SPOILER] the game gave you the option to either kill Abby or let her go. It would be way more interesting if after seeing Abby's backstory and journey, we were given the choice to forgive her or punish her. What exactly would that choice say about the player?
Gyromania 07.04.20	I think killing Abby would defeat the game's messages. I see so many people whining about her not dying and that Joel died and they're such stupid criticisms. I do agree the game is not beyond criticism. The pacing is kind of awful at times and it could have been sequenced better, but those things aren't big enough detractors to warrant low ratings from a game with so much game in its DNA. The combat is superb and the voice acting, sound, graphics and world are all top tier stuff.
Gyromania 07.04.20	Basically, agreed with Snox regarding sequencing. I feel like they didn't fit all the pieces together perfectly and they could have told the story in a far better way. I don't think everyone needs to love this game, but I'm utterly baffled at the massive amounts of hate it receives
Gallantin 07.04.20	I think a big problem with this game is also that they made the world and environments so much bigger but then made scavenging for stuff go against the faster paced plot. In the first game you're going across the country and trying survive. It's slow and allows for detailed searching. In TLOU2 there were multiple times when therr was somethin happening in the distance that required urgent attention, and I was spending 10 minutes searching around for duct tape and a secret entrance into a kitchen. It was a very jarring disconnect between story and exploration, which was just not an issue in the first game.
BenThatsMyJamin 07.04.20	I don't think most people had a problem with Joel's death in and of itself, just the nature of it. They did absolutely nothing to rekindle the connection you built with Joel in the first game, but made him feel awkward and like a side character from the get-go. Then for him to be killed off so early and in such stupid circumstances, without putting up a fight and just so matter-of-factly, wow I didn't even feel a pang of emotion. That was probably the biggest crime of the whole thing for me: after all that we went through in the first game, they had the chance to make us really feel something with the death of one of the main characters (let's face it, THE main character), yet I don't know anyone who shed a single tear at that scene. As I said previously, I was more affected by the death of Sarah after knowing her for 10 mins than I was for Joel who we'd been through hell on earth with over the course of an entire game. THAT is bad writing. You can see from how they handled the character that they didn't want him involved from the get-go, and discarded him as such just because he didn't seem to fit their new direction (how much 'diversity' played into that decision, I daren't surmise).
Gallantin 07.05.20	I disagree there. Joel's awkward relationship with Ellie was masterful character development and his death scene was incredibly sobering. The flashbacks Ellie has are also A++.
Slex 07.05.20	You did dare to surmise and it is stupid
parksungjoon 07.05.20	last of us fans playing 2 be like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-XH92Wie0U wheres my joel?! >:[
Gallantin 07.05.20	Lmao didnt even notice his comment on "diversity" Of course this kid's worried about diversity ruining his story Diversity killed Joel
Wildcardbitchesss 07.05.20	Yeah I’m with Gallantin. Plot wise it makes perfect sense. With marketing, Naughty Dog totally made us all think Dina was gonna he the one that set Ellie on her path of revenge. By making it Joel, it really put us in her shoes. In the moment that they killed Joel, I wasn’t unfulfilled or unsatisfied or any of that shit. I just wanted every fucking person in that room dead. It really made you feel Ellie’s rage. In short, the game’s brilliant. It could’ve been better, but it’s a worthy successor to the first one. Truthfully though, I hope Naughty Dog moves on. Even though I love this game, the first one didnt need a sequel, and I really hope we don’t get a TLOU3.
CalculatingInfinity 07.05.20	"I just wanted every fucking person in that room dead." See, this is the main thing which I don't get in the Last of Us discourse at all. Why? Joel caused the death kneel for humanity that had his death coming for years; a shitty person who used his grief to kill an entire base of people for someone who is not his daughter and lied to her after. Hell that's why I enjoyed the fact he put up no fight and was essentially thrown in the trash, fitting for what he did. He killed that connection with Ellie (and at least for me, the audience) with his actions, not the writers. The only thing that I do agree with though is that the death set up was poor, Joel wouldn't give out his name if he had a brain after killing an entire organisation and fucked over multiple people. However, after that setup, the acting and how uncompromisingly "fuck you" attitude the whole scene gave off was so good that I didn't care.
Gallantin 07.05.20	Because morality isn't that black and white. Players, like Ellie, became attached to Joel. He was a sad little man with an evil streak, but despite his actions it's hard not to feel an attachment to him. Players built a fondness for this character despite his morally wrong actions. Not to mention that in fiction it's far easier to feel compassion and empathy for people you would otherwise hate in real life. That's why storytelling is important. It allows people to experience empathy and morality in a way that isn't viable in the real world. It allows for these types of complex emotional reactions we'd never feel for anything else. Joel was a bad person, anything and everything he got, he had coming to him. That doesn't mean we didn't spend 15 hours in TLOU bonding with him and his struggles. I don't trust anyone who pretends they're too morally righteous to have ever felt compassion for Joel and Ellie. I have to assume it's only ever actual sociopaths who don't understand empathy in fiction when they say stuff like "omg i hated joel and ellie bc theyre so evil and do bad things", which is a take I've definitely seen more than once.
CalculatingInfinity 07.05.20	He manipulated Ellie because he didn't have the balls for years to admit what he had done. His actions were heinous enough already but in that act, any attachment I had for him he threw in the trash. If he said he gave her life because he will do anything for her despite it not being right, then I'd feel 'some' level of sympathy. I don't care for deceit and I never will. It's those 15 hours that made me dislike him even more. If you didn't spend that time with him, you'd see him as a faceless asshole but knowing all the context, you saw the story of a man who tried to find comfort in Ellie and be a better person and throwing it away in a selfish act. I felt compassionate for Ellie, but barely a trace for Joel. And even then, Ellie became just as a bad as Joel for her actions, especially in the last two hours.
Gallantin 07.05.20	Lmao