Lucman: Ten Great Christian Artists You've Never Heard

Lucman 01.16.19	List might not be for everyone here but hey, if you're curious, make sure to check some of these out.
Papa Universe 01.16.19	Lecrae and Citizens
Papa Universe 01.16.19	(Okay, that Citizens band isn't on Sputnik)
StrikeOfTheBeast 01.16.19	List needs Realm.
Lucman 01.16.19	I think you're thinking of Citizens & Saints Uni. A Mirror Dimly is excellent and I contemplated putting it on here. As for Lecrae I can take or leave him.
Papa Universe 01.16.19	Okay, they're called Citizens and Saints now.
Papa Universe 01.16.19	People also like Jars of Clay.
Lucman 01.16.19	It's confusing, I know lol. They're apparently changed it back to Citizens now so... I love Jars but pretty much everyone knows them.
Lucman 01.16.19	@Strike I've actually never heard Realm. I'll make sure to check em out!
Lucman 01.16.19	Honourable mentions go to Josh Garrels, John Mark McMillan, The Ember Days, and Civilized Creature.
tyman128 01.16.19	I used to listen to Theocracy so much a few years ago, need to get back to their discog at some point. gotta check out these bands at some point
Lucman 01.16.19	I got into Theocracy when Ghost Ship came out and i haven't stopped yet. Hopefully you'll like some of these, man!
tyman128 01.16.19	I’ll probably be checking out the first 5 throughout the week, I’m quite interested in their descriptions, plus the stuff I’ve heard from Propaganda before has been pretty good
ramon. 01.16.19	Half-Handed Cloud, Kings Kaleidoscope, Isaac Gill, Vic Thrill, Départe, and Ascend The Hill would be a few I'd also consider. Haven't seen Sara Groves' name in years, she did some marvellously clever stuff. Oh, and Extol and Mortification would like to have a word with 6. Nice list dude, really dig a lot of stuff on here.
Papa Universe 01.16.19	Batushka, I guess
Lucman 01.16.19	All great picks Ramon. There are a few I haven't heard actually, namely Departe and Vic Thrill. I guess I prefer Theocracy's style moreso than Mortification's, although I have yet to truly give them their due time.
Lucman 01.16.19	May as well list some honourable and highlight everyone's recs :)
Demon of the Fall 01.16.19	Only checked this to make sure Extol was on here, nice. What about The Chariot for some Christian metalcore?
Casavir 01.16.19	tfw no Believer
nightbringer 01.16.19	Sweet, will check out a lot from this list.
Friday13th 01.16.19	Nice, i've not heard of My Epic, Sons or Andrew Peterson. Similar bands to the Choir are Daniel Amos and the 77's I highly recommend. Also The Prayer Chain and Starfyler 59 for 90s alternative rock.
botb 01.16.19	2, hell yeah
DungeonBoy 01.16.19	maybe a bit dated, but you ever jam Strongarm bro? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79GVVpqr3bE
BallsToTheWall 01.16.19	Where the fuck is the true greatest Christian band of all time? Stryper!
BerryGarlicia 01.16.19	THE BEST CHRISTIANS BANDS ARE SLAYER BEHEMOTH AND MAYEM
tyman128 01.16.19	Berry always there to break a genuinely interesting thread
osmark86 01.16.19	no Christian gabber?
tyman128 01.16.19	I just started jamming My Epic and i don’t know why I haven’t heard of them before, Behold is amazing so far
JustJoe. 01.16.19	I heard of 2 but that’s all.
botb 01.16.19	Extol is also a crucial inclusion, second Strongarm
botb 01.16.19	I think Dwell is also Christian, great abrasive chaotic metalcore a-la spitfire
Source 01.16.19	Paramaecium
Ignimbrite 01.16.19	some good shit here, nice list OP
RogueNine 01.16.19	Mmm yes, Josh Garrels is good stuff.
Meridiu5 01.16.19	nice list. vision divine isn't bad either
AtomicWaste 01.16.19	So Long Forgotten >>>
Egarran 01.16.19	Antestor - The Forsaken [Black Metal]
Uzumaki 01.16.19	Knee-jerk reaction made me think “Christian black metal” is an oxymoron...
JoeTex 01.16.19	deicide
Sinternet 01.16.19	starflyer 59 of course
cvlts 01.16.19	Severe lack of Advent m/
nightbringer 01.16.19	I would be interested to hear someone try and defend the claim that Black Metal cannot be Christian. (I am skeptical that such a defence can be given.)
Uzumaki 01.16.19	Well, that’s what I meant by knee-jerk; it’s everything that’s tied to black metal’s predominant aesthetic and everything that’s been alleged to its influence, but when you take a step back, you realize it’s just another style/genre of music, and anyone can do what they want with it if they’re so inclined, ergo, Christian black metal.
nightbringer 01.16.19	Yeah I hear you, didn't mean to target you in my post! You raised a viewpoint that someone might have - that Christian BM is contradictory - without endorsing the view yourself. And I was just interested in what someone who did endorse that view might say in defence of it.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 01.16.19	Wtf
Source 01.16.19	Wow how did I forget Starflyer 59. Good job Sint
CaliggyJack 01.16.19	Ascend the Hill is amazing agreed
Uzumaki 01.16.19	Nah, i gotchu bro, s’all good, I just realized reading your initial response that I didn’t clarify my thought process for it.
Source 01.16.19	Don't listen to black metal. Listen to Starflyer 59
nol 01.16.19	Where the fuck is U2 Showbread is one of the only Christian bands I go back to, or family force 5 when I’m on a nostalgia kick
Uzumaki 01.16.19	Family Force 5, now THERE’S a blast from the past...
sixdegrees 01.16.19	volume swellz for jesus
Lucman 01.16.19	A lot of good bands everyone but remember that this list is mostly for the relatively unknowns so no U2 or Stryper haha
Lord(e)Po)))ts 01.16.19	I can name some too Blindside and switchfoot
Atari 01.16.19	Nice list. 10 looks nice, so on my radar now
Lucman 01.16.19	Thanks Atari! I need to add more of her work to the database.
J() Alexander 01.16.19	Just listen to classical sacred music, lol.
Space Jester 01.16.19	Def gotta add Believer. They are one of the top tech/prog thrash bands in general, let alone in the Christian scene I don’t think they’re a Christian band anymore but their best stuff was in the 90s when they def still were
botb 01.16.19	Also Living Sacrifice and Zao
sixdegrees 01.16.19	olivier messiaen
Lucman 01.16.19	Done!
nol 01.16.19	Nice adds with showbread and falling up
nol 01.16.19	This is probly a good place to mention my theory that nearly every big budget Christian band started out as a clear rip-off of a more popular contemporary artist. Relient K = Weezer Thousand Foot Krutch = Third Eye Blind Skillet = Tool Family Force 5 = Beastie Boys/N.E.R.D. Falling Up = Linkin Park Toby Mac (portable sounds) = Kanye West (lmao I really believe this one) Mandisa = Beyonce Showbread = Nine Inch Nails The list goes on... also I’m just talking these bands debuts for the most part, some of them came into their own with time.
Uzumaki 01.16.19	Can’t forget Superchick.
Lucman 01.16.19	@Noler: The problem with most CCM today is that we don't even get Christian artists latching onto the sounds of good bands anymore, it's all saturated with Hillsong and the like. They're ripping off each other and watering it down a little more each time. @ Uzu: Yes we can haha.
Source 01.16.19	"Blindside" this
Lucman 01.16.19	Blindside is alright. I can't say I've ever been a big fan but then I've yet to hear the album I have listed here.
Source 01.16.19	a thought crushed my mind and about a burning fire are their best imo
teamster 01.17.19	How about Hands / Everything In Slow Motion
ramon. 01.17.19	SADIE HAWKINS DANCE IN MY KHAKI PANTS THERE’S NOTHING BETTER AH AH AH
Lucman 01.17.19	@Teamster: Hands! Good pick!
pizzamachine 01.17.19	No Petra on this list??!! Dawg do you even Christian
Lucman 01.17.19	How could I have forgotten lol
ramon. 01.17.19	I figured they’d be huge enough that I shouldn’t need to mention them but The Oh Hellos have a smaller following than a couple of artists listed so imma mention them anyway alongside fellow indie compatriots Hillsong United and Skillet While probably a more well known church band within Christian circles, I don’t think enough people understand the levels of funk and groove that were reached by Israel Houghton, especially in the New Breed era. Low key miss ridiculously cheesy overly technical Kirk Franklincore of days past.
Feather 01.17.19	I listened to Sons once and that album had one awesome standout track if I remember right.
Source 01.17.19	Lucman do you like copeland
Lord(e)Po)))ts 01.17.19	i remembered another christian band POD lel
Deathconscious 01.17.19	"THE BEST CHRISTIANS BANDS ARE SLAYER BEHEMOTH AND MAYEM" Pretty sure Berry is like 15.
pizzamachine 01.17.19	HERE COMES THE BOOM READY OR NOT
Lucman 01.17.19	@Source: Love Copeland but I don't really see them as a Christian band.
Lucman 01.17.19	@Feather: "Ghost" from that album is one of my all-time favourite songs.
Source 01.17.19	I think they're one of those "we're not a christian band" christian bands. Which describes 95% of christian bands
Lucman 01.17.19	True haha.
Friday13th 01.17.19	Petra is pretty well known...they're also not that good. Both Resurrection Band and Daniel Amos were contemporaries and had way better Christian dad rock.
Lucman 01.17.19	Yeah, I like the record listed but they definitely haven't aged well for me. They were big at their time but hardly hear them mentioned in Christian music circles today. Still, should get this list back on track so I'll let em go.
VaxXi 01.17.19	Adam Again is pretty good if you like 90s grunge stuff
Deathconscious 01.17.19	I believe Andy Hull of Manchester Orchestra is a Christian, but i dont think they call themselves a Christian band.
Egarran 01.17.19	Silent Scream by Slayer could easily be a christian song.
bgillesp 01.17.19	Good stuffs
geezers1989 01.17.19	"Skillet = Tool" I think Memento was christian tool, or christian chevelle trying to be christian tool
geezers1989 01.17.19	circle of dust is pretty tight too, tho they're relatively known on this site
oltnabrick 01.17.19	isnt chevelle already a christian band?
OwMySnauze 01.17.19	This Armistice A Kiss For Jersey
Source 01.17.19	Chevelle aren't christian. They were signed to a christian label at first so people assumed they were. Kind of like the agony scene
BenThatsMyJamin 01.17.19	When you say Christian do these bands make worship music in a variety of different styles or do they just happen to be a group of Christians who make secular music with maybe a few Christian references? Always on the lookout for musically good worship music
Lucman 01.18.19	My first ten artists, save for My Epic, aren't worship per-se, just explicitly Christian. Rivers and Robots, Citizens and Saints, The Ember Days, and Kings Kaleidoscope are probably the closest to what you're looking for.
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	Thanks, I'll check those out. I always think it's all well and nice for a band to brand themselves as Christian but if they're not at least sometimes glorifying God in their music it's a tad wasted - even superficial
Friday13th 01.18.19	Kings Kaleidoscope's first album is the best worship album imo. Their later stuff isn't worship. David Crowder Band is another great worship band.
Uzumaki 01.18.19	For All Eternity is an Aussie Christian metalcore band.
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	A lot of worship music is actually fantastic live (which is really what it's intended for), the problem seems to come translating it to studio a lot of the time. The whole album's a bit saccharine for me, but Boldly I Approach by Rend Collective is by far the most stunning recorded worship tune I've ever heard
Lucman 01.18.19	Mmm, that's a good point. Not to point fingers but sometimes I think artists like the idea or "brand" of being Christian more than Christianity itself. And I think that speaks for the community at large as well. It's all very self-centred.
Lucman 01.18.19	David Crowder Band is pretty good, esp Church Music and Give Us Rest. Not big on his solo stuff, though. Kings K's later stuff I'm not big on either.
ramon. 01.18.19	@Ben 100% agree with your point on live vs studio. Few things kick ass as much as getting to hear Hillsong do With Everything live. And yea, Boldly (and a lot of RC’s stuff tbh) is pretty stellar
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	@Lucman yep, I hate being a cynical Christian as I don't think it's godly but some things make it hard not to be. Our purpose on earth at its simplist is to glorify God, and art more than anything is such a wonderful medium for doing so. For some 'Christian' bands to only occasionally vaguely allude to God always seemed strange to me. @ramon yep just had a listen again, and man is that song beautiful. It kinda annoys me how so much worship music is 'objectively' worse than anything else I listen to, yet nothing else can break me in the same way, not even close. God is great.
Lucman 01.18.19	I agree completely man. I find it hard to believe that we still get the "Is this to my girlfriend or to Jesus?" type of songs. Most Christian music tries to be so inoffensive that they've even erased the very thing they claim to love and believe. I mean, even satire like this hits so close to home. https://babylonbee.com/news/journey-song-becomes-unlikely-worship-hit-accidental-christian-radio-broadcast
Lord(e)Po)))ts 01.18.19	i cant even fucking believe this thread rn young adults and teens having genuine interest in worship bands what the fuck is going on
Lord(e)Po)))ts 01.18.19	i take for granted how non-religious my area is the mind boggles
Skoj 01.18.19	slayuuuuuuuuuuuuur
Koris 01.18.19	Tourniquet
Koris 01.18.19	Oh, and Antestor
ramon. 01.18.19	I think your points @luc and @ben is why I dig ascend the hill’s hymns album so much. Kinda feels like what worship could have been for it’s time but never got big enough to really be iterated on. @lorde welcome to jesus town, cretin
Lucman 01.18.19	I'll definitely check it out Ramon. I've heard their first one but never got around to their others. That's also why I love My Epic.
Koris 01.18.19	Oh, and there's also Horde, one of the very first Christian black metal bands ever
Lucman 01.18.19	Essential piece of Christian metal history.
nightbringer 01.18.19	"I hate being a cynical Christian as I don't think it's godly but some things make it hard not to be. Our purpose on earth at its simplist is to glorify God, and art more than anything is such a wonderful medium for doing so. For some 'Christian' bands to only occasionally vaguely allude to God always seemed strange to me." I don't know about this. Music that very explicitly refers to God and Christian doctrine is great when the aim is congregational worship. But I find that level of explicitness nearly always very off-putting in music that is not designed for congregational worship. It strikes me that implicitness and ambiguity are very often aesthetic virtues in lyricism as in fiction. One might argue that it best glorifies God to express one's Christianity in a way that is high in aesthetic value, and thus when one is not writing congregational worship, it is better, all else being equal, to be implicit and ambiguous. Of course, there are some attempts at ambiguity that are lazy and crass. For instance, a very explicit and direct love song that could be about God does not seem to score well in aesthetic value. That is because (a) the lyrics are already lacking in implicitness by virtue of being such a explicit love song, and (b), given knowledge of the beliefs of the band - which are often public knowledge - it is hardly a stretch to imagine that God is the target of the lyrics. In which case, one has a very explicit, not very creative love song to God. And since any song that is explicitly about God does best to at least be theologically rich, these songs lose even more points for explicitly talking about God in a way that is very "watered down" and shallow. So these songs fail to be either good, implicit, "art for art's sake" songs, or explicit, theologically rich, art for the function of congregational worship songs. They are the worst offenders.
nightbringer 01.18.19	(Further, art that is more ambiguous seems more likely to open up sympathetic interest and conversations about God or spirituality than very explicit, "this is the truth" Christian songs. A band like mewithoutYou can offer the Christian and the agnostic/atheist some middle ground to talk about, in a way that some very explicit Christians bands cannot, because they automatically put off the "secular" listener and don't leave space for questions.) (Not saying that mewithoutYou are Christian, I don't think they are, but they still serve the point.)
Lucman 01.18.19	Excellent points. Being explicit often isn't enough, especially if the delivery is lazy or off-putting. I think artists should strive to convey theological truth through narratives humans can emotionally connect and relate with. The Citizens and Saints record is a fine example. Death Therapy would be another and, of course, mwY as well.
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	I'm back. Good points nightbringer, I suppose you could make a case from an evangelising standpoint, I'm just unconvinced as to the efficacy of that. I find obfuscation of the God element is generally always a downward gradient (and actually detrimental to the artist's faith itself) as opposed to consistent, although perhaps I'm pessimistic; I haven't heard many of the bands on this list. But for example, last night after seeing this I was reading the history of Zao (a band I'd heard a lot of good things about) and apparently they just progressively shed away any references to faith with each of their albums to the point where now only one member openly professes to being Christian - all this because they "didn't want to shove it down people's throats", the equivalent of saying (at risk of offending some people's sensibilities here) "we don't love our audience enough to want to see them saved". I've seen this with a few different 'Christian' bands and it always reminds me of a saying that I'm about to misquote, something about "attempting to save the World, and in doing so becoming part of the World". In my experience, watering down of the word in music only reinforces the feeling in the listener of "Oh they're Christian and make good music, that's cool but that's just their views" - it does nothing to set the faith apart from any other worldview. Rather I think proudly evidencing the joy that is so characteristic of a relationship with God through song is a far more convicting ministry. I suppose I've just never really heard someone attribute their redemption to a theological debate stirred by a mwY song, whereas I know many people who were transformed at a Christian conference, and cited the worship as the most integral part of that. EDIT:- on re-reading what you wrote I realise you may not necessarily be Christian and my response assumed knowledge of a lot of Christian concepts, so apologies if that is the case
Hawks 01.18.19	The year is 1984. I first discover Ride The Lightning in November of the year. It was snowing outside and it was very cold men. I put record on,, It start with medival style music, and then when in calm place? Thunder guitar take control! This is great start for this record men. Lars Ulrich is the drums for this record and at end of song, he is the lightning with bass pedal and snare madness! After this song the name of record is a song and plays well. For Whom The Bell Tolls is up and it deliver best of Metallica riff by Cliff Burton. He play guitar men? hhehehe this is bass! I can believe this. Then best Metallica song is playing,, soft music and guitars. Fade To Black is hitting me hard and it build up with epic solo and chill feeling of depressed. Trapped Under Ice brings energy back to the life here with great open riff by James Hetfield. Escape is starting up and Kirk Hammett is playing on the leads here men. This is song of good structure and deliver a good fade out ending. Here we go men! This moment we wait for! Creeping Death! This song is Metallica well known effort and it is personal favorite of my listens today. This song is about the times of Bible in Christian lore men. I believe this happen and is scary song. The end is no vocals and has great style for close the album up. The Call Of Ktulu is epic! Dave Mustaine has wrote this song when he was playing with the Metallica men,, if you did know. The last riff of song end this record and it is best way to ever end. I have never listen to better ending for any recording and I listen to many metal! This is all I say about Ride The Lightning. Thank for reading and apology for english is not good.
ramon. 01.18.19	I’d argue glorifying God isn’t always acted out explicitly, nor could it be expected to be homogenous in its praise-centric nature. One look at Psalms or Ecclesiastes is enough to kinda confirm this. They are at times depressing works. I feel congregational music always needs a strong theological grounding. That’s for sure. My church has run the gamut of pseudo-romance tracks of late and it’s not encouraging. But artists making music that they consider to be a form of praise or worship that isn’t designed for a set church/general congregation can (should?) be about as raw and singular as ones own prayer life imo. I feel like art born out of even a partially Christian mindset is a form of testimony, and I don’t think testimony and academic theology necessarily need to intertwine. While it’s likely a statistical truth that a considerable amount more people are lead either into the faith or into a faith-based experience through direct worship, I don’t feel like it’s an approach that every Christian artist can or even should utilise. Not everyone resonates with on-the-nose messaging. And not everyone has the ability to compel theology into worship art (ala these romance tracks we are all so tired of)
ramon. 01.18.19	@hawks sorry but it’s fallacy to quote Leviticus out of context!!!
nightbringer 01.18.19	Hey BenThatsMyJamin, no worries, I'm a Christian =). I agree with you that more people are brought closer to placing their trust in Jesus through live experiences of worship music than through listening to bands that express their faith more ambiguously. I don't think that anything I said goes against that, though. After all, I agreed that explicitly theological lyrics are good for congregational worship songs. That is, they are good, and powerful, for those songs designed to lead a group of people toward public, collective praise and worship of God. What I said is that such explicit lyricism tends to detract aesthetically and - for lack of a better word, evangelistically - from music that is not designed to facilitate such worship. While every Christian artist will want to glorify God, in some sense, through their music, not every Christian artist will take their calling to be to produce music for praise and worship in churches, Christian gatherings etc. Some will want to produce music that has no particular function except to be enjoyed for its intrinsic aesthetic merits. And my point was that, looking solely at music designed for that purpose, art that is implicit and open to interpretation seems of better quality (and more likely to produce fruitful spiritual interest) than art that is theologically explicit. So I guess to disagree with me, you would have to think either (i) that any Christian artist ought to work only on songs for public worship, or (ii) you would have to think that explicitness is not, in fact, something that typically detracts, aesthetically (or evangelistically) from music designed to be enjoyed for its intrinsic aesthetic value.
nightbringer 01.18.19	I detect from your comments that you might disagree with me that explicitness tends to detract from the aesthetic value. Which is fair, the extent to which we enjoy ambiguity and implicitness is definitely significantly impacted by personality. And I definitely have a preference for "the grey" in my artistic consumption. Of course, you might think that whether or not explicitness detracts from the aesthetic value of (art for art's sake) music, Christians have good reason to pursue such explicitness. For you might be concerned that leaving faith ambiguous puts the artist's own faith at risk, and you cite an example of that. I suppose that against that point, I think the danger might depend upon the artist's intention. If the artist wishes to keep faith low key in the music simply because of the social pressure to avoid causing offence, I see how that could eventually wear down the Christian's resolve to stand against social pressure generally, and lead to the eventually dissolving of any Christian convictions. But if the artist is just drawn to do art a certain way, by the intrinsic value he or she sees in it, I cannot see any danger in that.
nightbringer 01.18.19	You also mentioned that the distinctive joy found in explicitly Christian music is likely more effective at impacting people than less distinctively Christian music. Again, if we're talking about worship music, I agree. If we are not, my own anecdotal evidence leads me to disagree. Most people that I encounter tend to find such music tepid, fearful of the full range of human emotion, and patronising to the listener. (And I incline to agree, on average.) But I guess this matter could only really be settled by doing a survey and gathering some data.
Lucman 01.18.19	I've added another record that could be of value for those looking for theologically rich and creative worship that isn't catered specifically to congregations. "While it’s likely a statistical truth that a considerable amount more people are lead either into the faith or into a faith-based experience through direct worship, I don’t feel like it’s an approach that every Christian artist can or even should utilise." This. I find that faith that's founded on an emotional reaction tends to fall apart quite easily, especially if they come across things that challenge that faith. Worship music brings the emotion but rarely does it provide the truth that should bring people to the faith. To see how to do evangelize one only needs to read how the disciples did it in Acts: always appeal to the evidence. The empty tomb, the resurrection appearances, the miracle of Christ, the vindication of Him as Messiah, etc etc. There was no initial emotional appeal, personal testimonies, or experience to their evangelism, those came later.
nightbringer 01.18.19	"To see how to do evangelize one only needs to read how the disciples did it in Acts: always appeal to the evidence. The empty tomb, the resurrection appearances, the miracle of Christ, the vindication of Him as Messiah, etc etc. There was no initial emotional appeal, personal testimonies, or experience to their evangelism, those came later." I think we would get along =).
Lucman 01.18.19	Haha, yeah, I have a big interest in apologetics and it's, unfortunately, something the church at large still has little interest in. "And my point was that, looking solely at music designed for that (non-congregational) purpose, art that is implicit and open to interpretation seems of better quality (and more likely to produce fruitful spiritual interest) than art that is theologically explicit." Agreed, and this goes back to the human element that I mentioned before. A lot of worship music, even the most theologically rich, tend to act as sermons, and that's great, but speaking to someone is often less effective than speaking with someone. Speaking to people and to God is what worship excels at. Speaking with people, that is, allowing the listener to take their own spiritual journey with the artist, is what Christian artists who aren't called to write congregational worship should strive for. Jesus utilized a similar approach with the parables, never speaking to His audience in an explicit, on-the-nose manner but crafting stories that they themselves can relate with and think about if they so choose to. And I thoroughly believe that doing so isn't any less theologically rich than delivering the message plainly.
ramon. 01.18.19	John Van Deusen!!! Luc u r a lovely lovely boi "I find that faith that's founded on an emotional reaction tends to fall apart quite easily" Yea, post-conference buzz followed by post-conference depression has to be the shallowest and possibly most easily visible form of this haha. 1 Peter 1:7 gets tossed around a lot but its certainly applicable both in the more literal sense of the verse itself, and maybe even in a metaphorical sense regarding artistry and artistic integrity. Fun discussions all round
Hawks 01.18.19	The year is 1984. I first discover Ride The Lightning in November of the year. It was snowing outside and it was very cold men. I put record on,, It start with medival style music, and then when in calm place? Thunder guitar take control! This is great start for this record men. Lars Ulrich is the drums for this record and at end of song, he is the lightning with bass pedal and snare madness! After this song the name of record is a song and plays well. For Whom The Bell Tolls is up and it deliver best of Metallica riff by Cliff Burton. He play guitar men? hhehehe this is bass! I can believe this. Then best Metallica song is playing,, soft music and guitars. Fade To Black is hitting me hard and it build up with epic solo and chill feeling of depressed. Trapped Under Ice brings energy back to the life here with great open riff by James Hetfield. Escape is starting up and Kirk Hammett is playing on the leads here men. This is song of good structure and deliver a good fade out ending. Here we go men! This moment we wait for! Creeping Death! This song is Metallica well known effort and it is personal favorite of my listens today. This song is about the times of Bible in Christian lore men. I believe this happen and is scary song. The end is no vocals and has great style for close the album up. The Call Of Ktulu is epic! Dave Mustaine has wrote this song when he was playing with the Metallica men,, if you did know. The last riff of song end this record and it is best way to ever end. I have never listen to better ending for any recording and I listen to many metal! This is all I say about Ride The Lightning. Thank for reading and apology for english is not good.
Lucman 01.18.19	My fellow JFH writers introduced me to that one haha! Yep, I can confidently say this is the best thread I've ever been a part of here.
Lucman 01.18.19	Good story Hawks, Ride the Lightning is quite the song.
ramon. 01.18.19	In response to your new comment Luc (as I was writing my last when you posted it), the line between the human "testimonial" side of things and theology is probably the biggest thing I struggle with when writing my own music. My own theological studies have added a fair amount of baggage to my conscience when it comes to how I portray myself through my writings, and all the credit to artists who manage to toe the line with both honesty and reverence.
Egarran 01.18.19	It's not butthurt, it's actual worry for hawk's legacy. When I was a noob here he was my favourite poster. Now I bascially dread opening any threads he might be in, because I might get slapped in the face with his infantile lulz. It's clearly trolling now or he thinks a joke can actually be funny the 10000000. time you hear it. I don't know what's worse. Also he shits on desdi. It was great when s/he popped in with a trademark comment, but now Hawks has tortured desdi to death and ruined the joke.
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	Loving this discussion. I should have clarified my joy comment; whilst I would say that joy is so important in one's walk with God, it is clearly not the only effective means of worship - I was merely using it as an example of how worship music can affect people, and, whilst maybe not so much for the musically jaded, I'd say it is certainly the most effective spiritual way of reaching the masses/the average person. Personally I certainly prefer 'moodier' worship music and I know how powerful the polar opposite emotion - sorrow - can be in worship (just listen to When I Survey the Wondrous Cross for goodness sake). "I find that faith that's founded on an emotional reaction tends to fall apart quite easily, especially if they come across things that challenge that faith." You actually may not expect this from my previous comments, but I could not agree more. My own faith is characterised by passionate worship and strict authority of the Bible, the truth of which is what enhances worship. It's easy to be co-praising God with someone for a year, have them fall away, and only then realise in the throes of emotion no one ever told them to read their Bible. I suppose we're now just splitting hairs over the best way to evangelise, and I guess the view I've gathered over time is that mass worship can turn for example 10 people over to God, and even if 50% of them fall away, that's 5 people saved. Whereas 'appealing to evidence' and theology is a harder sell in the modern generation, so would perhaps appeal to fewer people but create stronger Christians? I think both work and we should tailor our responses to the individual =) I should also acknowledge that having avoided a lot of 'Christian' bands my whole life after becoming jaded with the few that I gave a chance (for example, the guy from mwY saying that there isn't only one true way to God), I probably approach that kind of music with the same cynicism that musically literate Christians approach mainstream worship songs. I think I'm just lucky to be in a church that generally chooses good music, as I am aware how drab some church bands can be.
Egarran 01.18.19	I've been curious: What do christians believe happens after death?
tyman128 01.18.19	this discussion is amazing, and something I’ve contemplated for a while. Great points from everyone honestly. My current dream career is to actually utilize faith through music that reaches those who aren’t exposed to truth (specifically through rock/metal styles). One of the hardest things I’ve dealt with is “do I use such explicit reference to God, or utilize ambiguity that still points that way” and I’ve come to the point that it all comes to the heart of what your intentions are actually for. There needs to be some foundational basis to what you’re doing and where it’s coming from. Specifically for the ambiguous allusion, there needs to be some further, deeper level of undeniable faith that can leave listeners and the audience with a different meaning than whats actually seen on the surface and not ridiculously coded or whatever. I’m kinda rambling at this point, but I think i got my point across haha
Friday13th 01.18.19	lol wait till LordPots sees the latest discussion @nightbringer hey man, I used to agree with your personal taste that Christian non-worship music should be more ambiguous and poetic. Most of my favorite Christian artists are that way. However, there is all kinds with Theocracy and Neal Morse being two of my favorites who are very obvious about their faith and I think they do a great job. It still takes creativity to find a hook to the message and certainly easy to miss the mark. @ramon and tyman cool that you guys write music. What kind of music? I write worship, classical, and musical theater/rock opera/progressive rock @Egarran Heaven or Hell, just like the Black Sabbath album only in the alternative:)
tyman128 01.18.19	I’m relatively new to writing music, I focus towards an alt metal/ nu metal approach with just a bunch of fun riffs and hooks I come up with on occasion. Lately Ove been getting into writing metalcore and some prog stuff
Friday13th 01.18.19	@tyman cool well god bless. I've been writing music for about 6 years now. I played one of my songs for several open worship nights, but otherwise it's been hidden lock and key (one day going to change that). I have exclusively written Christian lyrics: some worship, some more contemplative, and some biblical narrative like a musical.
nightbringer 01.18.19	@Friday13th, thanks for your comment. Yeah, I don't think that obvious and explicit always equals bad. Some of the caveats in my above posts were intentional (use of "tends to" and "all else being equal"). For instance, I checked out Andrew Peterson's The Resurrection Letters Vol 1 and thought that was pretty good, even though very explicit (and, I would say, probably not worship music per se). It can be done well, but I think it takes a lot of skill and, I dunno, a certain amount of special charm that is hard to specify.
tyman128 01.18.19	@Friday, that’s awesome man! hope to hear some stuff from you being put out in the future!
Friday13th 01.18.19	@nightbringer gotcha, I'll have to check out Andrew Peterson
Egarran 01.18.19	Sure I've heard of Heaven and Hell but that's hardly an answer. What happens to a person who comes to Heaven after death?
nightbringer 01.18.19	@Egarran, good question. Across the major denominations, you will find agreement that those who are reconciled to God will, at a future time, be resurrected to imperishable versions of their earthly bodies. In other words, the resurrection of Jesus is the template of what all Christians will experience. So the end goal, across mainstream Christianity, is future physical existence. There is some disagreement about what happens to any persons that are not reconciled to God. The dominant view has been that such persons will experience eternal conscious suffering (whether in bodily form or not, I am not clear what the teaching on this has been). This is not necessarily literal hellfire, but certainly something unpleasant. But there have been pockets of dissent through history. Personally, I am persuaded that the Bible teaches that any persons who are not reconciled to God will eventually cease to exist altogether. This view is known as annihilationism or conditionalism. There is also disagreement about what happens to persons between dying and any experience of future resurrection. The dominant view, however, has been that dead persons have a disembodied existence as souls during this time. (This is the grain of truth in the popular but mistaken belief that Christianity is all about souls going to heaven/hell).
OldCrime 01.18.19	Christians? WTF? Why? The mind boggles [2]
ramon. 01.18.19	@Friday mainly folksy stuff with too much reverb and not enough substance yo yo yo Also shoutout to my main boi purgatory who thought annihilationism couldn’t be boring enough! 😎
ramon. 01.18.19	@OldCrime u best hide they’re coming for u
Friday13th 01.18.19	nightbringer basically summed it up, though I don't agree with him on annihilationism. The in-between is either identified as Hades or Paradise so that's literally where everone will stay until Jesus judges satan, demons, and people who have not put faith in Jesus.
Egarran 01.18.19	@nightbringer, thanks! It shouldn't be a good question though. It should be absolutely clear what happens after death if you think the biblical mythology is a correct description of reality. But... it's just humans guessing. About hellfire. If the soul exists, it will need to be cleansed of human filth like vanity and lies. Beware of believers who don't think that will be relevant for them.
nightbringer 01.18.19	"though I don't agree with him on annihilationism" As acknowledged, my view is a minority one =)
ramon. 01.18.19	Funny to think nightbringer isn’t a fan of terra damnata 🤪
Egarran 01.18.19	"so that's literally where everone will stay until Jesus judges satan, demons, and people who have not put faith in Jesus." How can you be so sure? I mean, you say 'literally'. Anyway what does everyone do until judgment day?
Friday13th 01.18.19	@ramon lol well keep it up. If you feel like you hit a brick wall I suggest learning some harmony theory as well as looking up chord charts. I remember my songwriting improved a lot when I started learning some key and mode change tricks. lol so ya we kinda left purgatory out, but unless anyone is Catholic I think it's better left out
ramon. 01.18.19	If I was more physically imposing I’d probably have spent all my Sundays of yore sneaking out of Sunday school into the local chapel and bullying all the catholic kids Yea I tried learning harmony theory a bit back and then gave up so I’ve instead watched a buttload of videos and hoped osmosis will lead me home
Friday13th 01.18.19	@Egarran "literally" as in it's normal to say heaven or hell are the post-death final destinations, but there is technically a first stop. It is faith and there are a lot of things we take on faith and we don't have to qualify.
Egarran 01.18.19	What is a normal way to describe Heaven?
nightbringer 01.18.19	"@nightbringer, thanks! It shouldn't be a good question though. It should be absolutely clear what happens after death if you think the biblical mythology is a correct description of reality. But... it's just humans guessing." Well, I'm sure this will be more involved than you really want, but... 2 points. Firstly, even if the biblical text were clear to all readers, it would not follow that the wider culture who does not read that text would know what it clearly taught. So any person in that wider culture who expressed curiosity as to what it taught would be asking a good question, by virtue of expressing intellectual curiosity. So I was commending you for your intellectual curiosity! =) Secondly, I guess I don't see what reason there is to believe this: "it should be absolutely clear what happens after death if you think the biblical mythology is a correct description of reality". I mean, alright I'm being obtuse. I can guess the sort of argument someone might have in mind. But I like people to put some work in to their criticisms of my mythology ;)
Egarran 01.18.19	It shouldn't be so hard though. If someone asks 'what do christians believe happens after death', there should be a clear answer most christians agree on, beyond 'heaven and hell, sorted!' And then general confusion about what those terms mean.
nightbringer 01.18.19	"lol so ya we kinda left purgatory out, but unless anyone is Catholic I think it's better left out" I guess this was subsumed under my comment that it is widely believed that the dead have a disembodied existence before any resurrection. I just didn't specify what varied experiences the disembodied might have. But yeah, as you say, one sort of experience they might have, according to Catholics, is described by the doctrine of purgatory.
nightbringer 01.18.19	"If someone asks 'what do christians believe happens after death', there should be a clear answer most christians agree on, beyond 'heaven and hell, sorted!'" But why? =)
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	"What happens to a person who comes to Heaven after death?" It's oddly something we don't actually go into detail about very often. As a result I don't perhaps know this as well I should do, but from my understanding we will enter into the direct presence of God in His heavenly realm, which by virtue of His perfection is a place without sin. There we will praise Him for eternity. For anyone who has been freed from the shackles of a persistent sin by God's grace before and recognises the disgusting ruin sin has caused in this world, a place without sin is a truly overwhelming thought. This verse always leaps to mind when considering life beyond death: When we arrive at eternity's shore Where death is just a memory and tears are no more We'll enter in as the wedding bells ring Your bride will come together and we'll sing: "you're beautiful"
nightbringer 01.18.19	Anyway, I should probably duck out, at least for the time being. I am supposed to be working...
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	Are you a Christian Egarran?
Egarran 01.18.19	"But why? =)" Because the entire human existence depends on this. Why would anybody be a christian if christianity can't answer this? It's such a fundamental part of religion that you work towards salvation. Except here there seems to be no good answer.
Egarran 01.18.19	"It's oddly something we don't actually go into detail about very often." Thank you. I would say this subject is massively ignored in christianity. For example, Jesus said something about it's almost impossible for rich people to enter Heaven. This seems to be ignored by many christians though.
Friday13th 01.18.19	@Egarran No one has God's written agenda for heaven, we just know a few good things that should be enough like no sin, it will be like a new beautiful city, all tears will be wiped away, etc. If you get to know the one in charge then you're not too worried about it. Jesus did say it's almost impossible for a rich man to enter heaven, but you're missing the response after that. The apostles asked "who then can be saved?" The apostles believed that if anyone would be saved, certainly the rich would be. Then Jesus answered "with God all things are possible." The point is no person can be saved on their own, by what they do or how they appear. It's not anti-rich. Many biblical heroes were rich.
Egarran 01.18.19	It's a fundamental part of a religion that you know what happens after death. You wouldn't want to sentence yourself to Hell forever because the laws are uncertain. And as far as I can see, many christians are doing exactly that.
Egarran 01.18.19	"with God all things are possible." Kind of a cop out from Jesus, though. So God is unpredictable chaos?
Egarran 01.18.19	"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The young rich man became sad and was unwilling to do this. Jesus then spoke this response, leaving his disciples astonished." It seems somewhat anti-rich.
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	"It's a fundamental part of a religion that you know what happens after death. You wouldn't want to sentence yourself to Hell forever because the laws are uncertain. And as far as I can see, many christians are doing exactly that." Woah woah woah, we don't know exactly what heaven is like, but we do know precisely what the rules are governing eternal life and how we attain it. Those are two completely different questions. Justification to God is obtained by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Sniff 01.18.19	"open worship nights" dafuq is that?
Egarran 01.18.19	"we do know precisely what the rules are governing eternal life and how we attain it" Following the commandments, right? But many christians don't do that.
Sniff 01.18.19	Also shame on you for not mentioning Wovenhand even once itt
Friday13th 01.18.19	@Egarran You're acting like it's up for debate whether heaven or hell is better. Eternal fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and lake of sulfur or beautiful city with singing, gold paved streets, a prepared house for you, a banquet table with the king, and rewards for good deeds? Very clear choice for me. I don't have to know what's for dinner. "All things are possible" means God can do things humans can't. A rich person can't enter heaven on his own, but God can save him. It doesn't mean all possibilities will occur or that God can do illogical things or anything suggesting chaos.
Friday13th 01.18.19	@Sniff lol sounds crazier than it is. Local musicians sign up for time slots and play worship music for people to come during the week.
Egarran 01.18.19	Heaven: A beautiful city with singing, gold paved streets, a prepared house for you, a banquet table with the king, and rewards for good deeds. Thank you, at last a good description. Never said that Hell should better.
nightbringer 01.18.19	Oh man, would love to delve deep with you here Egarran. A very brief thought because I have to go and, in general, I'm trying to spend a lot less time in online discussions, for various reasons. One of the reasons that I can tolerate a decent portion of ambiguity or uncertainty in matters of Christian belief and practice is that I don't believe that reconciliation with God depends on scoring highly on an elaborate test of moral rules and doctrinal correctness. There is a lot more leeway than that. Here is where a discussion of "grace" and the nature of "faith" would kick in. But I just have it leave it here. Peace buddy.
Friday13th 01.18.19	@Egarran Jesus told one man to sell all his things because money was an idol he lived for that he wasn't willing to give up. Nowhere is it a universal commandment. Jesus met a rich centurion and Zachias and blessed them but never required them to sell their things. Peter in Acts 5:4 specifically says people have no obligation to give everything except they can't lie about how much they give.
Friday13th 01.18.19	@Egarran okay well glad that description satisfies you. Those things are in the Bible.
Egarran 01.18.19	The great thing, is it's more or less the situation I'm in now. No gold on the streets and the king is dead but that's not so important.
Egarran 01.18.19	@nightbringer Do you think that sinners will be tortured after death? It doesn't seem too ambiguous, but it does seem like something an angry grade-schooler would believe. Certainly not someone who believes in unconditional, omnipotent love (which I'm more in to).
BenThatsMyJamin 01.18.19	"Following the commandments, right? But many christians don't do that." No, not at all. We ARE judged by God's commandments, and all are hellbound by those standards as all fall short: "none are good but God alone." In a judicial sense, Jesus' crucifixion pays the FINE for our death sentence, meaning we are free to go though we are guilty. This is what we call grace. It is generally accepted that anyone who receives the free gift of grace through their faith is so utterly overcome by the realisation of how undeserved they are of the gift of eternal life, that they will be 'born again' (John 3:3), repent of their sins (Acts 3:19), live their life guided by the Holy Spirit and 'bear good fruit' aka good works. This could, for example, be manifested in a person who loves money more than God giving it away to the poor (thereby conforming to the first commandment). Therefore good works are the RESULT of our salvation, not the cause of it, which is what a scarily large number of Christians believe. Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, lest anyone should boast. The example of the rich man teaches us a sad truth that you identified, which is that most people who call themselves Christians will not actually inherit the Kingdom of God (Matthew 7:21), but that works are essentially a litmus test for someone's true faith.
Egarran 01.18.19	You are amazing. I am so impressed you buy into this, because I can't. I like the book a lot, but buying into the whole mythology and its huge amounts of handwaving is something I can never understand. "most people who call themselves Christians will not actually inherit the Kingdom of God" This is what I was working towards. Thanks for the talk, good people, may Allah shower you with camels.
RogueNine 01.18.19	Holy walls of text, Batman. Also, props to everyone for what looks like an engaging discussion.
Lucman 01.18.19	I go to sleep and this is what I come back to lol Rogue, welcome to theological debates.
Uzumaki 01.18.19	This has been incredibly refreshing to read.
Lucman 01.18.19	To give a brief answer to your question, Egarran, my views on the afterlife are pretty straight forward. The first, and most important thing is that the view of Hell as literal fire and brimstone is misconceived and doesn't take in mind how people of those times perceived things. Folks in Biblical times lived in what is known as an honor-shamed based society and saw everything through those lenses. Biblical scholars have come to agree that the use of fire was metaphorical and that Hell, as the ancients understood it, was a state of shame and exclusion, to which, for them, was akin to, if not worse than, literal fire. In fact, the oft-quoted phrase "weeping and knashing of teeth" was a common response in ancient times of people who were publically shamed. So who goes there exactly? Those who call their brother worthless or foolish (Matt 5:22. It may sound ridiculous but again, for people living in an honor-shame culture, it meant everything), those who tempt children into sin (Matt. 18:6-9), and essentially for people who love darkness more than light (John 3:19). There are more examples but the fact remains that whenever Hell is mentioned (if mentioned at all as it's worth noting that there is not a single evangelical sermon in Acts that uses the afterlife as a fear-mongering tactic or as a reward bribe) it is mentioned after a specific sin is pointed out. Thus, the shame one feels in Hell (or "outer darkness") is one created by their own conscious reaction in the face of a holy God and losing everything they once placed our worth and identity in and not something inflicted upon them. C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce is a good read here as is Mere Christianity. If Hell is described as shame, Heaven then would be honor and restoration. The details of what it would be like aren't overly important and, due to a lack of explicit details in the Bible, it wasn't overly important to the ancients either. It's honor vs. shame and understanding how those worked was of greater value.
Lucman 01.18.19	I'll just shout out one of my favourite Youtube channels Inspiring Philosophy as he has done excellent in-depth videos on the nature of Heaven and Hell. And, of course, you'll find tons of apologetics https://www.youtube.com/user/InspiringPhilosophy/videos
Minushuman24 01.18.19	I'll quickly put in my two cents, as this has been relevant to my existential crisis that put me into the hospital this weekend. The afterlife, not matter what it be, is completely unfathomable to the human brain bound to the laws of this universe. All this confusion and contradiction of what happens to us when we die is because it's a mixture of trying to humanize a state of existence that can only be speculated upon.
RogueNine 01.18.19	Oh don't worry Lucman, I've been a part of a couple myself. But for Sputnik this has been very respectful and productive.
Friday13th 01.18.19	@BenThatsMyJamin preach
Egarran 01.19.19	"If Hell is described as shame, Heaven then would be honor and restoration." What do you think about Friday 13th' description: A beautiful city with singing, gold paved streets, a prepared house for you, a banquet table with the king, and rewards for good deeds. "The afterlife, not matter what it be, is completely unfathomable to the human brain bound to the laws of this universe. " I'm impressed (and slightly worried) that you are so sure about this. How do we know christianity is The Way, then? People who see themselves as devout christians, regularly do things that seem to bar them from Heaven. Vanity, lies, greed, you name it. It's a cheap point but 'Evangelicals for Trump' is a thing. And God doesn't seem to mind. But they must hope, and gamble, that God can see they mean well despite their actions.
Lucman 01.19.19	"What do you think about Friday 13th' description: A beautiful city with singing, gold paved streets, a prepared house for you, a banquet table with the king, and rewards for good deeds." It's speculative but I'd say it's true based on Scripture, although they should hardly be the things of focus. I want to place a caveat here as the description could too easily produce a picture where everything revolves around us. Like a paradise where everything is served on a platter and we live in luxury. That's the kind of prosperity preacher gospel which I don't buy. Let me pull out an example from that description: "....rewards for good deeds." I doubt the rewards would be gold or fancy mansions. By rewards, we're strictly talking about honor and personal status in the Kingdom of God. Say someone receives Christ but never does a single thing for Him (if that were to happen I'd question his salvation anyway as true salvation is first born out of gratitude which logically begins a circle of reciprocity, grace responded to with more grace, but that's a whole other subject!) his reward, or honor status, would relegate him as the toilet cleaner, so to speak. The bottom line is, there will be more work to do for the kingdom, it ain't a Teletubbies world.
Lucman 01.19.19	"How do we know christianity is The Way, then?" Once more, it is worth noting that "rewards" in Heaven are never mentioned in any evangelical sermon. The reasons for this are 1) the ancients lived in a high context society, in other words, knowledge was assumed and they didn't need everything spelt out on paper, and 2) the evidence of the resurrection was the focal point. Without it, Christianity would be dead as its message and crucified Messiah was considered extremely offensive. Any sorta bribe or lie would not win a single convert. And then, well, you can start searching and testing things for yourself. The idea of blind faith, as Dawkins and co like to parade, is a patently false and unbiblical notion.
Deathconscious 01.19.19	are you implying there's evidence for the resurrection?...im coming into this late so maybe im missing something that would make more sense in context.
J() Alexander 01.19.19	What is going on in this thread?
Lucman 01.19.19	Typically, apologists name five pieces accepted by even the most skeptical of scholars and historians 1) Jesus died of crucifixion 2) that he was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea 3) that the tomb was found empty 4) that the disciples experienced post-mortem appearances and 5) that Paul and James were converted. My personal favourite, and the one that sold this skeptic, is the social basis (or the impossible faith argument). The shame of crucifixion (read my comment on the Biblical world being honor-shame based), the geographical association of Christianity's figure, the social rejection of the new, the extreme price of following, a severe lack of any rebuttal in history, list goes on.
J() Alexander 01.19.19	Damn it, this reminds me of when I used to talk to christian/anime Twitter users.
Deathconscious 01.19.19	"Typically, apologists name five pieces accepted by even the most skeptical of scholars and historians 1) Jesus died of crucifixion 2) that he was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea 3) that the tomb was found empty 4) that the disciples experienced post-mortem appearances and 5) that Paul and James were converted." these are not accepted by even the most skeptical of scholars and historians, in fact its still widely debated as to whether Jesus even existed or not...idk what world you're living in man. even if he was a real person, how is people claiming they saw him after his death count for solid evidence in the slightest?
J() Alexander 01.19.19	"in fact its still widely debated as to whether Jesus even existed or not" ?
Deathconscious 01.19.19	well i guess if wikipedia is anything to go by im wrong about that. ive seen a lot of articles out there calling it into question though. the rest of my comment still stands.
Lucman 01.19.19	"in fact its still widely debated as to whether Jesus even existed or not" It's widely debated in the conspiracy theory world, but not in the scholarly sphere. One needn't even be a believer to see that (see Tim O'Neill, an outspoken atheist. You could even refer to Bart Ehrman). "even if he was a real person, how is people claiming they saw him after his death count for solid evidence in the slightest?" Alone? It doesn't, not by a long shot. But in my search, it's the most well-supported event in ancient history. The social basis alone has well over a dozen points (which is why it's called the IMPOSSIBLE faith), then you have the exegetical basis, the historical basis, etc. And, a curious tidbit, the leagues of atheists using and insisting upon arguments such as the hallucination theory, the stolen body theory, etc. I would doubt those arguments exist and are used by many popular atheist activists if the data isn't a least lightly conclusive. EDIT: Ah, I didn't see your latest comment, no need to read the last bit then haha
Source 01.19.19	Well this thread has certainly changed since the last time I visited
heck 01.19.19	jesus was real but he was just a dude who probably drank too much wine and did a lot of psychedelic drugs and realized the whole religion thing was probably a good way to get mad pussy
Sniff 01.19.19	this thread is the most retarded sput thread in years. I love it
Egarran 01.19.19	When discussing the christian afterlife we must heed Matthew 25:31–46: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’ “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’ “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Friday13th 01.19.19	@Egarran Yes, Jesus does require that Christians be generous in all those areas to a certain extent. Churches have ministries for all those things. Christians invented hospitals for the helping the sick command. Note that in context "least of these my brothers" is actually talking about other Christians (read His definition of his brothers in Matthew 12:50). Most Christians go above and beyond by helping people regardless of faith. There are a lot of verses that say specific sins or omissions will keep you from heaven, some which I doubt would fit your personal views as much as the few you've been selecting. It is meant as a warning if these things characterize your life and you never repent from them. When Jesus saves you he gives you a new mind that wants to do these good things and repent of the sins, but then He forgives you when you fall short because no one meets the standard perfectly. The verse you pasted is a warning against those who have not truly been saved evidenced by lacking any generosity to other Christians.
StrikeOfTheBeast 01.19.19	A black metal Christian artist? Isn't that a bit contradictory?
Friday13th 01.19.19	@Strike some call Horde and Antestor "unblack" metal or something silly like that. Black metal is just a sound at this point. All the hipster black shoegaze bands like Deafheaven don't sing about satan so I say it's a style that has opened up lyrically.
Deathconscious 01.19.19	"But in my search, it's the most well-supported event in ancient history." not as far as i know, but i've already made a big enough blunder itt, i think i'll just sit the rest of this out lmao. i used to debate this stuff all the time, i guess i've gotten rusty.
Egarran 01.19.19	Surely we forgive all blunders? Come Judgment Day, the Jesus Entity will raise all souls and separate them. And he will look at sputnikkers and say 'DID THEY FORGIVE ADOLF CHRIST?' and if your answer is no, He goes a little something like this: DEPART FROM ME, YOU CURSED, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE
Trebor. 01.20.19	tt got mad paragraph game
Egarran 01.20.19	A reason why I have a hard time converting, is that Jesus or an Angel doesn't pop in here and unmistakably set things straight. In the OT, angels were hanging out in all kinds of shapes, from almost-human to shit-your-pants-monstrosities. But they clearly left this plane a long time ago. So, have you heard about the demiurge?
EoinCofa 01.21.19	Bathory!
Mnstorm99 03.20.19	'68 https://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/63342/68-In-Humor-and-Sadness/ Mostly a great list though. Amazing that there is actually good, creative music made by Christians. Not the shit played on christian radio or in worship service.
LOVEANDACCEPTANCE 03.20.19	always has confused me how intensely religious scogin is at time
OldCrime 03.28.19	It's called indoctrination.
LOVEANDACCEPTANCE 03.28.19	I mean that's just religion period
Egarran 03.28.19	Why are humans obsessed with things that aren't real? Demonstratively through 1000s of years - no aliens, no gods, no spirits WHATSOEVER. And still, some go all in on these delusions.
Friday13th 03.28.19	@Egarran Kinda like progressive atheists who are obsessed with their morality and politics when any rational nihilist atheist can immediately debunk every one of their moral claims with Hume's law. It is funny how "some go all in on these delusions."
Egarran 03.28.19	Can you answer my question though? It's not like there is a shred of evidence for many things people commonly believe. Until there is a good answer for this, I can kind of understand why some people snap and become fundamentalists on the other side.
Friday13th 03.28.19	@Egarran This question: "Why are humans obsessed with things that aren't real?" I mean you're begging the question there. I think what you mean to ask is "why are humans obsessed with things that science can't prove such as aliens, gods or spirits." If you start with the epistemological premise that we should only believe in things that science proves, then you should be a nihilist. I think that is perfectly consistent. If you think there are ways of knowing things apart from science or in supplement to science, then I suggest you be a little less certain mocking those who believe in values different than values you believe in without scientific backing.
Egarran 03.28.19	Did I ask in a mocking tone or something? You're not helping this conversation by going ad hominem. But considering how immense a role superstition plays on all levels of society, I'd think it could handle a little scrutiny. But maybe even asking the question is controversial.
Asdfp277 03.28.19	god doesn't exist
Deathconscious 03.28.19	Jesuuuus Is juuuuust a spanish boy's name
Friday13th 03.28.19	@Egarran well I interpreted your earlier post modifying a Biblical passage to fit our discussion as mocking, but I'm not here to die on that hill or create more ad hominems. You can ask all the questions you want. I'm busy though and I can't answer them all. My question to you is, if you think my last comment was reasonable (feel free to challenge it, say it's a false dichotomy or whatever), are you a nihilist or do you think some things like ethics can be determined apart from the scientific method? @Asdfp277 If you want to make an argument feel free.
Sinternet 03.28.19	joan osborne
BenThatsMyJamin 03.28.19	@Friday it's not worth it dude, Eggy is not the enemy
Emim 10.30.20	Heath McNease's newest album is really good. Also pretty much every artist associated with Humble Beast is fantastic. Jackie Hill Perry and JGivens deserve a shout out.
TheAntichrist 10.30.20	christianity
Purpl3Spartan 10.13.21	list rules
MetalMarcJK 01.27.22	Some good stuff on this list. Not like we were hang-out buddies, but I get sad when I see posts from Papa Universe. Good dude, and cracked me up at times, too.
Feather 01.28.22	That Sons album is surprisingly pretty solid
RogueNine 01.28.22	There's very little that's confusing about Scogin.
YoYoMancuso 01.28.22	This is definitely ten artists
Meridiu5 01.28.22	you'd definitely like labyrinth too. one of the most underrated bands.
Minortimbo12 07.09.22	6, 39, and 40 are great good luck liking 18 LOL