Jurtz: DDD ft. Immolation

Jurtz 04.22.25	The previous list got a false start and therefore I'm starting fresh. I'll update the list as I go through Immolation's discography.
NexCeleris 04.22.25	Wheeeeee!
evilford 04.22.25	[2]
Dedes 04.22.25	When is the disco list happening
Jurtz 04.22.25	The next list I make will be a disco list Dedes! :)
evilford 04.22.25	I came for the immolation and boy am I pleased
artificialbox 04.22.25	sweet
Egarran 04.24.25	Great guys with a wholesome message. Could never get into 1 so I missed out on this band for a long time.
Jurtz 04.25.25	Updated #3!
evilford 04.25.25	Nice The Devil i know is my fav song off of ffg too. Almost a 5 for me honestly
Jurtz 04.25.25	Yeah that song is awesome. I could see a higher rating happening in the future, it keeps growing on me with every spin.
evilford 04.25.25	Sweet I love the prod and especially the kick drums. Gives it kind of an unintentional mystical quality that not a lot of albums have
Jurtz 04.25.25	Updated #4!
evilford 04.25.25	Hm
Dedes 04.26.25	Glad ur still doing this my guy, ngl sometimes I think Inholy Cult may very well be my actual fav Immo cause it brings the SPOOKY vibes the hardest Tbh in retrospect Close To A World Below may very well have their most overtly over the top edgy lyricism lmao, I love them but boy are they overblown.
DDDeftoneDDD 04.26.25	Yeah lol
0xME 04.26.25	you're insane for that CtaWB rating lmao
evilford 04.26.25	I dont really think ctawb's lyrics are edgy at all. They just REALLY dislike misuse of religion/bastardization of dogma. Not sure I can really get on this bandwagoning we're doing calling anything critical in nature "edgy"
DDDeftoneDDD 04.26.25	DiscographyDeepDivetoneDiscographyDeepDive
DDDeftoneDDD 04.26.25	Wrong take on the fire orange one
Jurtz 04.26.25	It would be good criticism if they had gotten their facts straight. Look at Death with their album Spiritual Healing, that's how it's done.
Jurtz 04.26.25	Insane take? Perhaps. I'd die on that hill though.
Demon of the Fall 04.26.25	I definitely see them as edgier than I did, perhaps blatant ‘blasphemy’ is less “cool” than it used to be idk. It’s a bit crude on CtwWB. Having said that I barely listen to this band anymore, maybe a revisit is in order? DDD in the DDD
Jurtz 04.26.25	Here in After is my current favorite, could see that one climbing higher than a 4 in the future.
Demon of the Fall 04.26.25	Here in After was my last Immo czech and it was still rather good
evilford 04.26.25	What....facts did they get wrong? Lol
Jurtz 04.26.25	Ford bro, it's right there in my findings, but I could make a list for you if you're interested.
Jurtz 04.26.25	"Dolan explores the notion that the immaculate conception of Jesus Christ was not consensual between God and Mary, suggesting that Mary herself may feel poisoned and traumatized by the experience."
evilford 04.26.25	The line "you've raped mary" is not to be taken literally. Kinda surprised that that has to be stated overtly. The song is about the historically-proven systematic abuse (read: rape) of children in the catholic church. A lot of the lyrics are figurative in nature, which I guess is maybe what we're referring to as "edgy." Besides that id be interested in anything else u think they get factually incorrect, that is the only thing you address in your criticism as a fact that was inaccurate or "made up"
Hawks 04.26.25	I understand where Jurtz bro is coming from.....but a 2.5 for CTAWB is absolute blasphemy. Literally lol.
evilford 04.26.25	I understand not liking it. But I don't know of anything on the album that is meant to be taken as fact that is incorrect
evilford 04.26.25	But also. Mary did not ask to be a mother. Technically speaking, she was impregnated without her consent, according to Christian dogma. So in that sense it could be taken literally
Jurtz 04.26.25	"The line "you've raped mary" is not to be taken literally." Which is what most religious people do with their religious scripts (interpretation and such), interesting isn't it?
evilford 04.26.25	You're saying it's not surprising you took it literally because that is how you take scriptures as well?
Jurtz 04.26.25	Yes, I take the Bible literally, because the Bible says that it's to be taken literally. So when the Bible states that people that perform homosexual acts should be put to death, then I will take that literally. Which is why I don't agree with half of the Bible.
Jurtz 04.26.25	"But also. Mary did not ask to be a mother. Technically speaking, she was impregnated without her consent, according to Christian dogma. So in that sense it could be taken literally." She wasn't raped though. She was impregnated without conception, without sexual intercourse. How could she have been raped?
Jurtz 04.26.25	People that don't take the Bible literally are ashamed of the parts that they are uncomfortable with. They take what they like literally and what they don't like figuratively.
Jurtz 04.26.25	Cherry picking, every Christian does that. Why? Because there's things written in the Bible that nobody in their right mind would defend. Oh, these inhabitants of this city don't live according to God's will (and they couldn't have known, because they are not familiar with the God of Israel). I, God, who says Thou Shalt Not Kill, want you to kill everyone in the city, men, women, children, animals, leave no-one alive. No Christian I have debated with had a rebuttal. The only thing they'll say is that we cannot comprehend God and his ways.
evilford 04.26.25	Ok. So how does this tie in to my assessment versus your assessment of the line "you've raped mary"? Because it's not even possible to take it literally since God has not an earthly body in any sect of Christianity that I'm aware of. I guarantee you Immolation knows more about Christianity than I do, so I am deducing that that line is meant to be taken figuratively. In this sense it is a statement suggesting that Mary was impregnated by God without her consent, which cannot be disproven currently. Also, if you are referring to which audience they are appealing to, I don't think it matters. Christians (like u said) I guess would take the statement literally, which is not how it was intended to be taken. Dm fans would usually take it figuratively because that statement in a literal sense is not based in reality
Dedes 04.26.25	I'd be pretty fucking pissed if a cosmic entity impregnated me without asking ngl And if he ask I would firmly but politely tell him no On a more serious note your statement here alone does kind of shine some intrinsic faults within the literal doctrine of the religion, which, if we are to trust the morality of people to understand they can extract the positive traits and use their sensibilities to exempt the negative ones, would be a fine thing. It's an unfortunate thing-my closest friend is a devout Christian albeit distinctly anti-church, and as such it helped him stay steadfast during horrific times, i.e the death of his father and imaginably when he was younger and his parents were coke fiends. On the other hand it contributed almost entirely to his hatred of gays for a LONG time, which in time loosened up more than likely in part to another friend of ours being bisexuality. This is hardly the most egregious example tbh, as at least he was able to grow. Other people, and I mean predominantly Catholics, do often have an extremely unhealthy unquestioning relationship with their religion.
Hawks 04.26.25	Gonna interject just one thing here. I am a Christian. I also take anything the church says with a grain of salt. Being a Christian to me has absolutely nothing to do with church. My personal relationship with God has nothing to do with any man made thing or person. I think if you put all your eggs in the Church's basket then you're going to be sorely disappointed. I love the pastor at our church but by no means do I take what he says as the truth and nothing but the truth. It's all up to the individual person. Just my two cents and really has nothing to do with this specific convo. Just wanted to get that thought out there.
Jurtz 04.26.25	God impregnated Mary without her consent. She was to be thankful for that, but indeed did not have a choice. Also, she was most likely a teenager and she wasn't even married. Joseph felt like shit, because God got some before he did. He believed she was unfaithful, which she wasn't, she didn't have a choice. So was she raped? No, but she did not consent to being impregnated. God made everything, so he expects every puny human to be thankful for his "services". I'm in a rebellious mood, I think this is the right time to revisit Close to a World Below.
Dedes 04.26.25	@Hawks Blessed be ur soul I def wish more people would root their belief in their faith and not in the literal church doctrine. Faith is a wonderful thing (in fact I kinda envy it lol) but a man who blinds himself to all else will forever be trapped behind a veil of progress.
DDDeftoneDDD 04.26.25	Mary was "drunk" dude. Rape.
evilford 04.26.25	Yikes
Hawks 04.26.25	Exactly Dedes bro! I grew up in the Catholic church and it gave me a heavy disdain for religion in general for a long time. I definitely believe in God though and I found that my own relationship with Him is completely separate from the shitty politics of a whole lot of churches. Like I said, I love my pastor but if you go into Christianity trying to please a man or looking down on people for certain things then you're missing the entire point of being a Christian imo.
Dedes 04.26.25	Tbh idk if drunkenness is even a factor at this point considering it is, again, a cosmological entity implanting a baby into the womb from the heavens which is probably pretty fucking far, maybe somewhere in Greenland
Jurtz 04.26.25	I love both my very religious grandmothers. They offer a lot of love, but at the same time they keep supporting Israel. Because they are God's people. Never mind Israel killing thousands of children, Hamas shouldn't have provoked them! Me and my fiancée try to steer clear of this subject now, because it makes me hate their guts otherwise and I don't want that. Also, they think gay people choose to be gay! Why on earth would someone choose to be gay? The abuse these people face on a daily basis, the discrimination, the hate, sometimes even physical violence. Make it make sense.
Jurtz 04.26.25	"literal church doctrine" You mean the Bible, the holy book?
DDDeftoneDDD 04.26.25	Not drunkenness but "drunkenness" as if "H"e took advantage of her faith to impregnate her without her consent. Shitty yet funny convo but yeah.
Jurtz 04.26.25	Also, the God of the old testament seems to be a different God than the God of the new testament. The old testament is full of violence, hatred, destruction, war etc. The new testament is the opposite of it. Jesus said I haven't come to change the scriptures, I have come to fulfill them. So yes, we have to see the old testament and the new testament as one book, which makes it very difficult for me to support this God.
DDDeftoneDDD 04.26.25	Everytime a go to grandma innlaw she's holding a stupid collar and preaching stuff in secret. It s pretty sick, in the worst sense. Her idea of living in constant sin begging for salvation is very encrusted. But all the respect for Hawksy view/take
Jurtz 04.26.25	Why do Christians tell their children that if they don't believe they'll go to hell? Because it says so in the Bible. I was told this from a very young age, it's child abuse, 100%.
DDDeftoneDDD 04.26.25	Yes, now up on ctawb rate
Jurtz 04.26.25	I respect Hawks because he is a Christian that does not consider the Bible to be the absolute truth. That's why he's able to be a rational, sane individual.
Demon of the Fall 04.26.25	defo gonna read this thread when I have a min if Jurtz doesn’t delete it should be fun
Dedes 04.26.25	IG when I say church doctrine I mean the Bible since I imagine it's all p ad verbatim. Tbf I haven't been to church since I was like 12 or 13 lmao so maybe I'm a little out of touch in what I'm saying
Hawks 04.26.25	Appreciate the kind words bros! Yeah living in constant fear of sin is ridiculous. Everyone sins. God forgives. That's the entire point of Christianity, love and forgiveness. Once you go off that path then you're just becoming another judgy Christian and those types are usually worse than anyone. A lot of people in churches are just awful people that try to cover it up by being Christian (in their eyes) and that's just not how it works.
Jurtz 04.26.25	Agreed Hawks bro
Demon of the Fall 04.26.25	Love & forgiveness is what it’s all about. I’m not a religious person myself but that’s all I’ve known via family and friends. As a personal spiritual journey it can be a really powerful, positive experience. Essentially those that use it for their own ends are to blame. That’s the human condition unfortunately… to take advantage of others. If it wasn’t religion it’d be something else (it often is), that’s the core of my philosophy towards faith now. I don’t disregard the awful atrocities constitutional religion has been a part of, but that’s a completely different battle
Jurtz 04.26.25	Nail on the head!
Jurtz 04.26.25	And I won't delete it, don't worry!
evilford 04.26.25	People absolutely have the right to believe what works for them, as long as they're not using it to hurt anyone. Im not trying to prevent people from having faith or forcing them to discard their beliefs. I have friends and family that have different religious beliefs from me and I actively defend their right to hold their beliefs, even if they're different from mine. But believe it or not, what immolation is talking about is ALSO part of some other different peoples' belief systems. Thats why they're talking about it, because they are their beliefs. What i take issue with is someone saying that immolation is saying factually incorrect things, they have a fair amount of overlap with things I believe. Im hoping to be done with this conversation after this post. Jurtz I respect the hell out of you for standing your ground on your beliefs and I consider you one of my buddies on this site. I just dont think it's provable that anything Immolation says on this record is factually incorrect, as a lot of it is meant to be taken figuratively.
Hawks 04.26.25	Completely agreed Ford. It goes both ways. I'd never look down on someone for beliefs that are different from my own. That's where people get into trouble. My beliefs are mine and its not my place to tell others what to do.
evilford 04.26.25	Absolutely sir
artificialbox 04.26.25	refreshing conversation, bless you all
Jurtz 04.26.25	I appreciate you ford! You are definitely one of my buddies on this site too and one could even call it friendship. Indeed, if you're able to make positive changes and be a better person through faith, I'm all for that. Also, when it's your rock in challenging or dark times, like it's been for me, that's great. Whatever helps you grow, whatever pulls you through, whatever pushes you to work on yourself in a positive way, help others, be kind, patient, friendly, nothing bad could be said about that. I believe that is the message. I think we all agree on that.
Jurtz 04.26.25	I went for a long walk with my dog, listening to CtaWB. I was in the right state of mind for the album. I thought about my youth, my childhood and all the religious bs I had to endure. Too much to go into now. The important thing is that I finally understood the album and I could appreciate it for what it is. Still not my favorite Immolation album, that's Here in After, but it's not a 2.5 for me anymore. A 3.5 feels more in place right now.
hexfix93 04.26.25	A bit late to the party, but just to add: I think there's a few ways you can interpret their lyrics, and some stuff is definitely more figurative (like that line about Mary, which I take more like Ford said, or could be more symbolic or metaphorical in relation to the abuse being described). I definitely don't think they're just trying to be edgy or whatever. Their lyrics are often about corruption, hypocrisy, abuse etc. within the Church. And how the Church views non-believers. More broadly, it's about dogma but they talk about Christianity because that's what they were raised in. It might help to read interviews with the band to understand their perspective a bit more, if the lyrics bother you. Like here's Vigna talking about this album: "When you look at songs like "Father, You're Not a Father", which is a pretty straightforward song: it's pretty much about the people in the priesthood out there that have abused children for years and have got away with it. And we saw stuff on the news just last week about one person in particular that had abused tons of kids and people, and he was on his deathbed now, at 90, and what good does it do now, you know? I mean, he's already destroyed countless lives. A song like "Lost Passion", for instance, deals with, in the song and the context, it deals with a poor soul who believes in Christ, believes in God and was disappointed and let down, and all the effort and time they put into that: it meant nothing. But at the same time, the song can also reflect anything from a relationship with someone or a type of person, or another type of thing you look up to. I mean, the world has let-downs all around us, you know what I mean?"
evilford 04.26.25	I'm glad you've found something in it that works for you jurtz! Yes I agree that is the takeaway most people would get and that is a good thing. I dont consider myself a spiritual person. But I do have a belief system that makes me think and believe all of those things as well, so that works for me too :-)
Jurtz 04.27.25	Yes I've been able to place the songs in perspective and looking at the meaning behind the lyrics, not taking them at face value. I'll update the list too.
Jurtz 04.27.25	@hexfix Thank you for your elaborate response and I agree with what you're saying here. Thanks to all of you for going on this journey together with me. I appreciate y'all! Next stop: Unholy Cult
evilford 04.28.25	We love u jurtz, u a real one It takes a strong mind and heart to reassess your feelings on something that hit u so negatively to begin with to the point of being able to change your perspective on it. Big props
Jurtz 05.02.25	Thank you for your kind words ford bro, I won't forget it. Updated with Unholy Cult!
budgie 05.02.25	budgie
Dedes 05.02.25	Do you think you follow greatness Do you think you follow the divine Do you think you are the chosen Do you think you are the few Unholy Cult rules Prolly like it almost as much as World ngl
evilford 05.02.25	Wooo lfg
jrlikestodance 05.02.25	I like Unholy Cult the best myself
Azazzel 05.06.25	found a cool channel dedicated to Metal album art. did an interview with Immolation guys going over their process and collaboration with the artists. Incantation vid was solid too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y66-eRL3JUU