Papa Universe: Film Adaptations Classification Theory

Papa Universe 05.09.17	Sorry that I went full Cinefix on you, fellas.
Papa Universe 05.10.17	Talking about Stalker, AMC is turning Roadside Picnic (the book Stalker is based on) into a series. I highly suggest you read it before they're finished. It's like 300 pages tops.
butcherboy 05.10.17	The only director I could see ever adapting Bradbury with the kind of dreamy melancholy and strangeness he pours into his work is maybe Terrence Mallick.. But probably not even him.. Dandelion Wine was botched in its late 90's Russian adaptation.. and the trailer for Roadside Picnic already looks like they've fucked up Shuhart's wild and conceited sense of pride and doom..
Papa Universe 05.10.17	^ this guy, right there
ScuroFantasma 05.10.17	I tried watching Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy a few weeks ago - loved the cinematography but I was honestly lost when it comes to the story. First time I've ever been almost unable to follow the plot. I'm planning instead on perhaps reading the book first and then returning to it but yeah. Anyway, great and original list man. I tend to look at adaptations as seperate from the source material and try to judge them purely on their own merit most of the time. They can't be entirely divorced from one another, but it saves me from picking apart the differences or exclusions. That said, the Eragon adaptation is disappointing garbage and I'm still not over it.
Papa Universe 05.10.17	Admittedly, TTSS is a difficult story to digest in any form. It relies heavily on your attention to detail. It took me two viewings to finally understand the film, but the book was really hard to get through. It's really obvious that author John Le Carre wa an agent himself, because every character you meet and every detail described is explained in almost sickening dossier precision. The plot unravels in little snippets and hints and not a straightforward narrative, that is why it's so difficult to unriddle. Definitely give it another shot, both film a a book, because in the end it is worth it like nothing else.
Papa Universe 05.10.17	Ah and yes, I should have added the "Adaptation as its own work" category. But it just seems to me as an understandable and logical part of any adaptation. If the film relies too heavily on its source material then what's the point of it existing at all? There are levels t professional adaptations. The worst is when the film is not standalone. After that comes the usual adaptation, one that does not in fact need the source material to explain itself. But there are instances (such as Stalker), when the film and the book compliment each other. They are their own standalone works, but together they are something better and bigger.
butcherboy 05.10.17	I know they say Show Don't Tell, but internal monologue is such a driving force in books, and often the most poignant aspect of them.. But having so much narration in a movie seems too bulky.. One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest was a damn good film, but it inevitably couldn't include some of the phantasmogorical thought processes of the Chief..
butcherboy 05.10.17	And a good deal of Roadside Picnic is the reader getting to understand that for all his brutalities, Shuhart is not a bad man.. That came from reading his mind on the page.. In the series, they inevitably supplement that by just removing modernist violence and likely replacing it with morality-justified occasional hissy fit.. I do agree that Stalker was a good compliment to the book.. Because it built its own world around the book's general premise..
butcherboy 05.10.17	Also, the anti-Stalin implications that kept Roadside Picnic banned from official publications for thirty years after it was written, and that still comment on modern Russia aptly will all be whitewashed and replaced with more romance.. Sorry for ranting, that book was very formative when I was a teenager, they're destroying my pillars to make a buck
ScuroFantasma 05.10.17	Ah okay, well if that's the case I might just have to persist until it gets clearer. It felt a little bit like a somewhat scattered play, with all the different scenes playing out before moving on to new ones with a whole set of different characters, settings, information etc. Beautifully shot though, visually really pleasing, and the acting was great, it was just a bit exhausting trying to follow it. Curious, how do you see works that are "inspired by" novels/stories etc, would you even consider them an adaptation? Also, following up my original post, how do you feel about a movie that butchers or drastically changes key moments/details of the source material, but is a succesful movie by itself? I've heard for example that Kubrick's 'The Shining' takes quite a lot of artistic licence with King's original (which I have not read myself cuz I'm a bad person).
Papa Universe 05.10.17	@butcherboy: Regarding the Show Don't Tell moral policy, it is always an incredibly intriguing challenge for the filmmakers to find creative ways of showing the original ideas and inner monologues onscreen, either visually or in dialogue, so that they maybe come through piece by piece, not as a whole, the way it was originally. When I was practicing writing, I tried turning the main character into two and making the monologue a dialogue. That's a solution. Regarding the Roadside Picnic adaptation. Although I too am highly sceptical of it, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt and wait to see what comes out f it. I believe it may very well be possible that the creators are even bigger Strugatsky fanboys than either one of us and it's just whoever edited the trailer hand hands growing out of all the wrong places. Besides, even if the end result will be something completely different from the book, that does not necessarily mean it will be bad. It's just their view of the story. It's their technique of implicating True Adaptation Theory, even if the end result might not be the greatest (see Failed Adaptations category).
Papa Universe 05.10.17	I suppose that is also a great segway to @ScuroFantasma's comment. If the adaptation butchers the source material completely, by which I suppose you mean that it presents the original story absolutely differently, that is still a legitimate adaptation. I suppose, depending on just how much was changed, you can atribute it to either Reimagination or True Adaptation. See, the filmmakers were at some point just readers like yourself and their take from the experience was radically different than yours. However, they decided to show others their point of view and it turned out to be something, with what you completely disagree. But that's just an opinion thing. I'm not sure whether it was Friedrich Dürrenmatt or somebody else, whose works were described as a gold standard of German Absurd Comedy, to which he replied that those works were serious and he does not understand, why do people call his a comedy writer. See, it's all just our personal INTERPRETATION. And that's all there is to it. Even if the film is just a Visualisation, it is still the filmmaker's take on the work. He maybe does not want to change all that much, but he wants to either (as I mentioned in the list) get more people familiar with the story or simply showcase his personal visual view, hence the name.
Papa Universe 05.10.17	So I guess this all applies only to the precedents of the filmmakers actually wanting to make an adaptation and presenting the world with their own point of view, not the instances where they were assigned to it. By this logic ANY FILM, whose writer and director isn't the same person is in a way an adaptation. The director takes a story developed and written by somebody else and INTERPRETS it onscreen. He can change the story or make different scenes explain themselves visually, instead of verbally.
Papa Universe 05.10.17	On a completely unrelated note: Please, do check out the albums I featured there. Wax Fang - Victory Laps -Synth heavy Progressive and insanely catchy Pop. The Black Angels - Death Song -Vibrant and emtional Heavy-Psych. And Also The Trees - Born Into the Waves -Extremely quiet and sombre Post-Punk. Griddle - Meat Kite -Cooky and oddball Psychedelic Rock with elements of Jazz, Punk and occasional Shoegaze. It's a whole package of oddities.
butcherboy 05.10.17	i think you're right, and I get that me feeling territorial about the book is just as biased as any botched adaptation I can think of is.. I'll hold out hope, and if not, try to enjoy it for what it will be.. I'm going to go on a Tarkovsky binge this weekend.. Stalker, Andrei Rublev and Mirror..
Papa Universe 05.10.17	And Solaris, don't forget Solaris...unless you don't wanna, in which case what the hell can I do about that.
butcherboy 05.10.17	no, Solaris is fucking lovely.. But I actually rewatched it with a friend only a few weeks ago.. How fantastic was Stanislaw Lem by the way?
Papa Universe 05.10.17	It was a great book. Interestingly enough, whilst both Solaris and Stalker are equally sombre and almost meditative, I think Solaris is actually quite close to its literary predecessor. Not a lot was changed, rather the conversations were turned around and presented differently, since that is what it is mostly about, people talking. I think Solaris is a Reimagination. It's a sort of Tarkovsky's baby steps into the world of adaptations. Still, he managed to keep the story the same and the atmosphere just as lucid, while delivering his own take in the dialogue, character behaviour and even plot developing moments. Take the televised trial scene for example. The book is quite straight forward. One could almost say it is basically one dialogue or plot point over being classified as a collection of ideas. It is Lem's reflection on personal responsibilities to your close ones and to what you pleaded your loyalty. And Tarkovsky is all that, but reversed and refreshed and poured through a filter of his own ideological additions. I suggest, however, that you do read it. And while we're at it, please read the dynamic and thrilling Pirx the Pilot, beautifully dreamy Futurological Congress and hilariously satirical Eden and the Star Diaries (possibly the greatest satirical book ever written, although its satire is indirect).
butcherboy 05.10.17	I've read Solaris, congress and fiasko.. I'll look to pick up the other ones.. This has been pretty great.. Thanks very much
Papa Universe 05.10.17	Ok, so I guess not a lot to discuss anymore, huh?
ScuroFantasma 05.11.17	"By this logic ANY FILM, whose writer and director isn't the same person is in a way an adaptation" great point. Directors tend to really make it their own though, I feel, while at least with a substantial chunk of book adaptations there's often an effort to stay true to the original intentions of the author. I don't feel there's much (if any) external pressure for a director to be that respectful to a writer's script or screenplay, but with a well known piece of writing there's an expectation from the audience and anyone on set who's familiar with the piece to adhere to it (sometimes), depending on which criteria in your list they aim for. Also looks like I'd better check out some of these movies you two are discussing (: - they seem quite interesting indeed.
butcherboy 05.11.17	featured!!!!
Papa Universe 05.11.17	Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamnnnnn it's here!!!
cylinder 05.12.17	one flew over the cuckoo's nest is the best book-to-film adaptation I've seen
Papa Universe 05.12.17	Would you mind elaborating? Not to diminish your opinion, it is most definitely an utmost brilliant film and no less gripping book, but it would help to know your exact opinion in that matter.
butcherboy 05.12.17	you also have to account that beyond the artistic vision of the director or the screenwriter adapting the movie, and whatever prism they're filtering the movie through; they also have to deal with the basic pragmatic aspect of fitting something within a two-hour frame.. you can get a lot done and say a lot in 10,000 words that you can't show in two hours..
Papa Universe 05.12.17	That is why the television is on the uprise nowadays, because producers realised that people watch TV and its much more suitable long runtime. There is much more room for storytelling on TV...that is also one of the reasons I didn't abandon hope entirely in regards to that new Roadside Picnic series.
butcherboy 05.12.17	you are right though, the more I think of it.. No matter how diluted or altered it seems, most every adaptation is the result of a work of writing being passed through another person's experience, notions and dogmas.. So it all does have value, even if it is just observational value.. barring of course the very extreme cases where something is so bad that it runs right past objectivism or kitsch..
Papa Universe 05.12.17	Understandably, every new work, whatever it is, is always an original and authentic product, to a certain extent. Even if it is based on a work of someone else. They always give their own take. An interpretation is always an authentic work (unless of course it's a direct plagiarism). Nevertheless, I would imagine someone who wants to show others his personal take on the story has something more to say than just a vision of a pretty picture. I'd like to believe that there is always a good reason why would you want to give others a taste of your opinion and be creative with it. I'm fine with adaptations that stay pedantically true to their predecessors, but I would hope for some experimentation. I could draw a comparison to sequels. A sequel is always basically the same thing as its predecessor, but wouldn't it be better if it went into more original direction? Or a band that records a cover. Sure enough they want to give their own run to a song they like, but is there really that much reason in trying to make it sound exactly like the original?
Papa Universe 05.12.17	I guess it all just boils down to the fact that I personally don't like to see the same story the same way twice. Having an opinion is a part of what makes you human and when your opinion on a certain subject differs ever so slightly, that to me seems unfortunate.
butcherboy 05.12.17	Given that point of multiple faces all having value, I'm curious about your take on Hollywood's version of Solaris?
Papa Universe 05.12.17	I've seen it a long time ago, so I can't recall that much. But I do remember that it didn't peak my interest that much. I think they tried to go into just as sombre direction, but one with a strong artsy visual component. You know, all looking as cold and technologically slick as possible to create a certain atmosphere of science fiction in practice, not theory. I suppose if I am right and it is indeed a less conversational and more of a picturesque spectacle then that was what they wanted to show. Maybe Steven Soderbergh thought that the whole anomaly of the planet Solaris is much better seen than talked about, which in its own right might be true to a certain extent, but you also don't get as much mystery satisfaction. See, Tarkovsky managed to make you intrigued, then suspicious and then amazed at the anomalies happening around the planet with just people sharing their experiences and opinions in cultivated and sophosticated dialogue (much like in Stalker, oddly enough). But Soderbergh thought that the main acteur should be the planet itself and not the ones it affects. But then again, I might be misremembering and thinking about an absolutely different film, I'll have to revisit.
butcherboy 05.12.17	no, what you said makes sense.. i like it..
Papa Universe 05.12.17	I have to mention this: Do you think this system can apply to adaptations of other format? Meaning game-to-film, play-to-film, comic-to-film, TV-to-film or vice versa, film-to-TV, film-to-comic, film-to-play, film-to-game, film-to-book (this exists for whatever reason). Most certainly to some of them, but what about the others?
butcherboy 05.12.17	As far as film to TV goes, Fargo has gotten a pretty intricate and I'd say very interesting reimagining.. Haven't played a video game since I was six, but from I gathered their plot lines and worlds have gotten very elaborate and could lend themselves to adaptation well.. Though their fans seem densely committed to faithfulness.. I would say that most of these scenarios can produce something interesting, of not brilliant (in the right hands).. You got some adaptations you'd want to see?
Papa Universe 05.12.17	Well, I mean, you can dig deep into a backcatalogue of old forgotten science fiction. Be it Brian W. Aldiss, Bruce Sterling,Robert A. Heinlein, Clifford D. Simak, Arthur C. Clarke, Ursula Le Guin or Isaac Asimov. As I mentioned before, a lot of Visualisations come about, because the filmmakers want to get people to know the story. However, in their quest to do so they forget about actually interpreting it themselves. It would be nice to see all of those authors adapted somehow, but I would take an alternative approaches to their stories over a simple Visualisation. Outside of the literary authors, I'd like to see DC's Doom Patrol (at least because of the Decreator, which might be the best villain of all) getting its fair share of television space. It could be DC's return to shape with a colossaly insane shtick. I'm trying to write some stuff loosely based off of a myriad of books. And Stanislav Lem's very own Star Diaries or Ray Bradbury's Martian Chronicles might make up for some damn good television just as well.
butcherboy 05.12.17	Left Hand of Darkness, or the first Foundation book would be fucking lovely to see.. Not big on comic books, but a friend showed me Sweet Tooth last year and I really liked it.. That might be interesting Demand for 60's political sci fi adatations doesn't seem to be there.. Maybe Picnic could break the gates a bit..
Papa Universe 05.12.17	Speaking of which, I just realised that there is an instance of a book-to-book adaptation. And no, I'm not talking about a fan fiction or those endless tasteless 50 Shades of Grey rip-offs. I'm talking about Strugatsky's very own Monday Starts at Saturday, which might be my favourite book of theirs at least because of the sheer magnitude of references to classical Russian poems and novels, as well as traditional Slavic folklore and an overall mockery of tricks and tropes and clichés frequently used in modern literature. It is an ultimate adaptation of sorts. Taking all the biggest and most well-known and influential Russian works, taking them apart and out of context and making something wholly new with it. Just remember the literal interpretation of traditional Slavic folk tales and Pushkin's world famous poem right at the beginning (the one with the cat, who can't remember others' poems in their entirety, walking circles around a tree, on which a mermaid found an ever so convenient place to sit).
butcherboy 05.12.17	Very true.. I do love that book.. First Strugatski book my father showed me when I was a kid.. I think I mentioned it before, but there were three volumes of stories published through the same editions of young Russian sci fi authors rewriting endings and continuations of the Strugatski books.. The Monday Saturday one was quite great, talking about another failed selfish experiment by Professir Vybegalo.. A creative mix of tribute and adaptation?
Papa Universe 05.12.17	And it certainly would be nice to finally see someone being able to adapt an unadaptable William Gibson. We've certainly seen a myriad of decent adaptations of supposedly unadaptable novels, be it the aforementioned Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy or Boris Vian's French surrealism classic 'L'écume des jours' transformed into maybe even more obscure, alas quite unwatchable film. I guess Michel Gondry, although a master of visual surrealism and dreamlike weirdness, realised that Vian is simply not meant to have an actual faithful adaptation, because it is simply not meant for the eyes to see and brain to understand in terms of logic and physics, so he decided to go full bonkers and create two hours of visual phantasmagoria spasm attack acid trip epileptic seizure.
butcherboy 05.12.17	What did you think about the Pynchon adaptation, Inherent vice?
Papa Universe 05.12.17	Didn't read, didn't watch, gotta get on it soon though.
butcherboy 05.12.17	I don't know if they did at some point, but Gravity's Rainbow has always seemed like an un-adaptable book to me, in any of the listed capacities.. I have to say, having not read Tinker Tailor, I really liked the movie, though a fair bit of that liking came from just watching a group of really good actors be really good at acting..
DrMaximus 05.12.17	The Trial
Papa Universe 05.13.17	Actually, you can make an argument that any work from the times of French surrealism is unadaptable, since that is basically what they were trying to do, make it as obscure and beyond the human interpretation as possible.
EphemeralEternity 05.14.17	this is a MUSIC website you imbecile
Papa Universe 05.14.17	@EphemeralEternity: Well hello to you too, good sir, it's nice to see the diversity in opinions around here, your feedback is appreciated as much as your existence isn't. It is odd that it is you who complains about a thread of this sort being here, when you yourself claim on your own page that you are in fact "not really a fan of music" yourself, which begs the question as to why would you be on a website of this sort in the first place.
butcherboy 05.14.17	one clear example I can think of of the movie vastly improving on the book was Being Flynn, an adaptation of Another Bullshit Night in Suck City.. the movie trimmed down a lot of the book's indulgent and faux macho horseshit.. it was also the last great performance De Niro gave in recent memory..
Papa Universe 05.14.17	Damn, gotta check it out.
zakalwe 05.17.17	What a load of fuckin waffle
Papa Universe 06.26.17	@butcherboy: I know it's a bit too late for this, but I believe that Fargo the series is a Pure Adaptation. At first it was pretty much the same story, but completely twisted around. Now it is its own stylistic masterpiece. It only borrows the style of the Coen brothers, while managing to be its own creation. It perfectly recaptures the atmosphere of Fargo and yet pushes the envelope of storytelling to a whole other level. It is a Pure Adaptation.