Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | Stay safe people, thoughts are with the families of the injured and dead. |
Snake.
03.22.17 | expecting this thread to be a very civil discussion |
Sinternet
03.22.17 | it's either some radicalised nutjob or dumb far-right extremist
whatever it is it's fucked up and we'll be hearing about it for the next six months |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | I'd hope so but I very much doubt it. Came home and BBC 1 had been interrupted by the news, never a good sign. |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | We were saying it could have something to do with the second Scottish referendum talks but who really knows. |
Snide
03.22.17 | I live next to a city called Westminster in California and legit though that someone attacked that city.
What is it with Europe and crashing car attacks though? There's been a lot. Seriously though, RIP to the deceased and I hope the other injured ones pull through. |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | A group of French students were on the bridge too, 3 of them have been injured. Fucked up. |
ClungeAbsentia
03.22.17 | that injured police officer has died |
SteveOffProbation
03.22.17 | ni🅱🅱as wilin |
guitarded_chuck
03.22.17 | "it's either some radicalised nutjob or dumb far-right extremist"
you heard it here first folks |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | 1 year exactly since the Brussels bombings |
DominionMM1
03.22.17 | "I live next to a city called Westminster in California"
yeah we got one here too |
Egarran
03.22.17 | "it's either some radicalised nutjob or dumb far-right extremist"
Redundancies.
|
Snide
03.22.17 | Apparently the attacker was Asian but it's not confirmed yet.
People are saying it could have had to do with the Scottish Independence Referendum but like I said take this all with a grain of salt. |
guitarded_chuck
03.22.17 | its not redundant but claiming you know who did it / the motives behind it with Z E R O anything to support your assumption is the definition of moronic |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.22.17 | are we really going to start arguments in this thread, too? |
Snide
03.22.17 | its not redundant but claiming you know who did it / the motives behind it with Z E R O anything to support your assumption is the definition of moronic [2] |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | New statement from commissioner: 4 have now died and 20 injured. |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | And I'm here sitting in Czech Republic, which will not be attacked ever, because ain't nobody give two flying fucks about us. |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | 4 dead including the attacker |
Egarran
03.22.17 | "its not redundant but claiming you know who did it is moronic"
Indeed. My point was that he used unnecessary adjectives... |
Azertherion
03.22.17 | Which isn't necessary a bad thing InfiniteUniverse. Terrorist attacks on my country only gave more legitimity to the extremes. |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | "its not redundant but claiming you know who did it is moronic"
*WARNING: DARK MATERIAL, DO NOT READ*
Exactly, the dude might have just lost control of the car and then thought "Aye, fuck it, in for a penny in for a dime...might as well have some fun"
*you've been warned* |
rabidfish
03.22.17 | what's the scottish referendum?
RIP all those poor souls (fuck the attacker, tho) |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | It's that referendum when Scotland wanted to separate from the UK in 2014 or something. (needless to say it didn't work out) |
Sowing
03.22.17 | another sad incident
hoping for the best for those injured and their families |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | People standing around filming the victims instead of coming to their aid makes me feel a little bit sick. |
ClungeAbsentia
03.22.17 | it's a scummy thing to do but that's how people are now, sad |
Egarran
03.22.17 | Ban cars. |
rabidfish
03.22.17 | People standing around filming the victims instead of coming to their aid makes me feel a little bit sick.
We are sickening pieces of shit, yes.
Ban life. |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | Who could it possibly be?
Islam fundamentalist?
Disgruntled Remoaner?
Guilty Brexiteer?
Bad driver?
Scot?
I don't have the first idea????????? |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | "it's either some radicalised nutjob or dumb far-right extremist
"
Surely you don't believe that latter part? |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | It's amazing how the European left manages to keep straight faces while proclaiming they are still figuring out what might possibly have caused attack x and attack y...
Every single time. And then, the odd time (about 1 out of 20) a non-muslim commits homicide or worse, they point fingers 'see, that religion has nothing to do with it, terrorism knows no religion'
And then there's me choosing to laugh rather than cry over the stupidity. |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | Ello bak dude.
Course he does. |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | ^^ello dear zak. I presume you and your loved ones are okay? |
Spec
03.22.17 | EDIT: read that wrong
Anyways fuck this guy. |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | "we had a far right attack in canada
"
Yes, they sometimes happen on either left and right. Still, largely disproportionate compared to islamic attacks based on demographic numbers. That's what I mean |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | "It's amazing how the European left manages to keep straight faces while proclaiming they are still figuring out what might possibly have caused attack x and attack y...
Every single time. And then, the odd time (about 1 out of 20) a non-muslim commits homicide or worse, they point fingers 'see, that religion has nothing to do with it, terrorism knows no religion'
And then there's me choosing to laugh rather than cry over the stupidity."
ban cars agreed. cars are the common denominator the last couple of years |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | these cars are coming to our country refusing to adpadt to thw western way of life frankly im sick of it |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | Believe it or not I'm actually caught up in this while I type but yeah all good mate. |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | ^^@ anarchistfish: You genuinely believe your moronic argument, I can tell. Newsflash: cars are handled by people. Other newsflash: cars are not weapons but can be used like weapons if one is evil enough. Other newsflash: you're throwing red herrings to disguise your retoric weakness. |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | @zak: great to hear you're doing okay given the circumstances. Right now, with all the police assembled, London's inner city is probably pretty safe right now. |
Spec
03.22.17 | i don't know what im thinking rn so just gonna lurke for a while |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | Bak, it's hilarious how seriously you took your reply to his obviously ironic comment |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | (bet he's gonna reply with something like "sure, I got that it was humour, but I'm just sayin', mate.) |
Egarran
03.22.17 | The obvious reaction would be to create more instability and power vacuums in the middle east. |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | "Bak, it's hilarious how seriously you took your reply to his obviously ironic comment
"
It's not all irony, dear. If you know him, you would see that he's of that kind to endlessly defend the indefendable. |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | fuck u dude im sick of seeing fucking skodas in england. fuck off back to sweden with that economic fuel consumption shit |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | Okay, off to watch the news. To all Britons here, take care! |
Spec
03.22.17 | "fuck u dude im sick of seeing fucking skodas in england. fuck off back to sweden with that economic fuel consumption shit"
sounds like my province lmoaaaa |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | "Okay, off to watch the news. To all Britons here, take car"
thats right u stay home bby. wouldn't want you to get raped by some japanese suv |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | @Bak aight yeah, I do indeed have no bloody idea who that one is... |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | @anarchistfish Did you purposefully shorten 'care' to 'car'? Cause if so then holy shit dude, talking about dark humour... |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | typo lol |
Papa Universe
03.22.17 | leave it...please |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | The hardest part of making sense of these events is that they don't make any sense and they never happen for a reason. It's just horrible. |
Relinquished
03.22.17 | well that's why you can't try to make sense of the absurd. absolutely terrifying to be caught in it all but the best you can do from the outside is to assist as much as you can to move it all on as life does. |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | Questioning it is the first step on the road to find the answer. It's a simple answer that nobody likes so it's discombobulated to the point where you can't make sense of what it is. |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | People have been saying for months that it was only a matter of time after the various attacks across Europe but it's still shocking regardless of the context. Everything gets blurred and we lost track of things in between the panic and the media circus. Sometimes there's aren't any answers and all you can do is try your best to cope, stay strong and be prepared. |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | We've all lost our minds tbh. Ideological subversion in full effect. |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | I'm sure there's people blaming this on islamic fundamentalism or whatever, before the facts are even out. |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | Keeping an open mind what would you say the odds are? |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | I'd rather it was some angry scot but the odds are it's another radicalised jihadist (keeping an open mind but lately that's been the case) |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | I'd bet my mortgage on it. |
bakkermaarten007
03.22.17 | "We've all lost our minds tbh. Ideological subversion in full effect."
Not all of us zak. And our numbers are rising. Thanks to the internet, many people have already broken free from the ideological shackles they once held to be the norm. |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | Something has to give at some point, this can't just go on forever. I know it'll just be another group like how 20 years ago it was the IRA but still. |
zakalwe
03.22.17 | We will be called crazy, paranoid and every ist, phobe and ot under the sun but we will not be subjugated.
Always question, always form your own opinion on the evidence that is provided and the facts that are presented.
Don't be told what you should think.
|
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | Don't be told what you should think and don't be afraid to speak out, even when you think you're in a minority. Speak out against your peers, make your voice heard and contact your local representatives if you feel you have something to say. |
Relinquished
03.22.17 | nothing is real remember that |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | @Relinquished postmodernism is so vague I can't take it seriously |
anarchistfish
03.22.17 | "The hardest part of making sense of these events is that they don't make any sense and they never happen for a reason. It's just horrible."
i don't really like this mentality tbh. obfuscating the (complex) reasons behind why someone would do something like this leads to people producing facile answers as evidenced by zak's comment right after you |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | I'm just saying sometimes there is no rationale behind these events and that can be hard for people to come to terms with |
Jots
03.22.17 | there usually is rationale |
Tunaboy45
03.22.17 | not a rationale that makes any logical sense though |
BigPleb
03.22.17 | RIP to all those who lost their lives, worrying times for the UK. |
Jots
03.23.17 | rationale doesn't have to be ironclad. just because the targets are arbitrary doesn't mean there isn't some underlying purpose |
Hep Kat
03.23.17 | Wow, bondstan, I always sized you up as a pitiful, bigoted tool from some lowbrow hellhole of utter reprehense, but, man, you have really soaked the ledger for your moral bankruptcy in clamato juice you ridiculous sideshow of assclownery |
Hep Kat
03.23.17 | Like how ginger are you, you fucking soulless, typing case of crusted scabies? You fucking godless, wicked creep, get fucked |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | notice how all terrorists are men
fucking men. fuck off back to saudi arabia |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | literally the same logic as the racialised arguments |
unclereich
03.23.17 | My mom is a terrorist |
Storm In A Teacup
03.23.17 | is this even worth talking about |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | if we don't talk about it it goes away, or at the very least becomes normal. I like it like that. |
Storm In A Teacup
03.23.17 | I meant on sputnik. |
Storm In A Teacup
03.23.17 | I think I have a weird perspective. I remember being only 5 in Oklahoma in 1995 and the terrorist bombing that happened here. |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | Growing up there were more terrorist incidents because of the IRA. That was all politically motivated, coded warnings and then bombs going off. Canary Wharf bombing, Brent Cross and Armadale Centre immediately spring to mind but they were 'regular' and then diplomatic processes brought about a ceasefire.
Now it's idealogical nutbags mowing down people in the street in the name of Allah. Something went drastically wrong somewhere. The only way to prevent it is to recognise the threat. The Muslim community need to outright condemn these people and bring about a bit of reform. |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | radical islam and islam are not the same ideology |
Ebola
03.23.17 | I don't believe the man has even been identified as a Muslim, though I could be wrong. |
Dewinged
03.23.17 | Dammit. I feel really sorry for those people and their families. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | It all stems from the same theology though |
SitarHero
03.23.17 | "the odd time (about 1 out of 20) a non-muslim commits homicide or worse"
Cite source for bullshit statistic plz. |
JWT155
03.23.17 | "radical islam and islam are not the same ideology"
Islam is also a religion that desperately needs a reformation. |
Cygnatti
03.23.17 | awful but we're just going through the rounds at this point, aren't we? |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | "It all stems from the same theology though"
islam has existed for 1500 years. radical islam has existed for what, 30 years? the koran is not the cause, just one dynamic of a broader more complex sociological phenomenon |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | Radical Islam has existed in the West for 20yrs. They've been beheading, subjugating, lashing, stoning, oppressing in Islamic countries now for what? 1500 years? |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
03.23.17 | im thankful for people like bakkermartin
for reminding me how utterly retarded people can be |
Storm In A Teacup
03.23.17 | the poles shifted in 2012 and we are all crazy now!!!!!!!1111 zzzzhhhhhh |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | You'll be first against the wall pots pal. Useful idiot. |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
03.23.17 | im thankful for people like zakalwe
for reminding me how utterly retarded people can be |
TheSpaceMan
03.23.17 | "it's either some radicalised nutjob"
I have my money on a very reasonable and mentally stable individual |
Lord(e)Po)))ts
03.23.17 | jk tho for real i dont know why you would be upset i dont necessarily disagree with what ive read in here that you are saying zak i just think bakk is really awful |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | bakk is way worse than zak |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | which is incidentally probably the nicest thing ive ever said about zak |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | Why the dislike of bak? because he hasn't yet had his mind pulped by the insistence that multiculturalism doesn't cause problems, anyone who questions the agenda is obviously Hitler and we are all the same we just need to bond over our common interests of love, peace and understanding and we will reach an egalitarian utopia? |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | because he's the most retarded person ive ever interacted with |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | "because he hasn't yet had his mind pulped by the insistence that multiculturalism doesn't cause problems"
there's a hell of a leap between "there are issues with multiculturalism" to the kind of shit he spouts out |
anarchistfish
03.23.17 | which reminds me
"Radical Islam has existed in the West for 20yrs. They've been beheading, subjugating, lashing, stoning, oppressing in Islamic countries now for what? 1500 years?"
once again reductionist af
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
go back 1000 years I don't think you'd find many civilisations that held the same social standards we do in the west today. similarly you can't conflate the kind of shit that goes down in somewhere saudi arabia with Islam when you have muslim countries like Indonesia where none of this is an issue. the answers are much more particular and historically contingent |
Jasdevi087
03.23.17 | wow it never fails to surprise me how much of a shithead Bakkerfaarten is |
UndineParty
03.23.17 | i blame allah |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | Ah yes the glorious expansion of the Islamic caliphate. Fucking hell dude.
|
zakalwe
03.23.17 | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Islamiyah
Yeah indonesia has no issues whatsoever. In fairness it was radicalised in 1993 after desposing of the other radicalised Islamic movement that preceded it. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | "Attacker was inspired by international terrorism"- looks like we were right zak, sadly |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | I'm not sure even the Muslim community making more of a show of condemning this type of attack would change anything. The enclaves are bedded in, it's a largely autonomous and self fuelling thing at this stage. People condemn the Ku Klux Clan but there's a point you want to wash your hands from being associated with the village nut jobs lest you get associated as being one and the same. |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | The people carrying out these attacks are usually small groups of deluded fantasist deadbeats supplied with arms and coked up on drugs. How do you stop the march of the muppet puppets? |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | Anyway I work for a Muslim, and work alongside a lot of muslims - they're just as likely to be victims of an attack and are in constant paranoia of some vigilante douche doing some tit for tat retaliation. |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | Praise ALA |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | I think the point is more so that hiding Islamic affiliation isn't really helping the situation. Anyone blaming this specifically on a religion isn't thinking clearly, it's pretty easy to convince any emotionally unstable individuals to do something no matter what belief system you're using - doesn't even have to be religious. But there is a correlation and overall I think it's better to just use realistic language than beating around the bush.
But I don't know much so I guess I should shut the fuck up. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | It's just a couple of disenfranchised scumbags and they don't represent the majority of Muslims. That point needs to be drilled home. |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | Well yeah but who honestly thinks that in the first place Tunaboy? |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | A lot of people, trust me. The EDL wouldn't exist otherwise, checked Britain First's FB this morning and it's as bad as you'd expect. |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | Well idk then, those people are fucking dumb then. Nothing particularly new.
Still think that using more honest wording would be better |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | Wow that facebook profile gross |
Hovse
03.23.17 | We should prepare for the worst : |
Egarran
03.23.17 | In order to properly criticize islam, without looking like ignorant hypocrites, the western world must get rid of christian authority.
End the baptizing, the monarchies, the swearing on bibles, the priests, the religious schools, Jesus being with our soldiers as they are killing kids etc. Then we can credibly move on to islam's failures. |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | A little bit of hate from the tolerant left directed towards me =)
If anyone of these people thinks I care any more than what is needed to type this post... you should get off sputnik some more. The thing is, in the bigger scheme of things: the future for the children of Europe, your anger doesn't mean a thing other than a sign that your bubbles are slowly bursting.
As long as zak is on the same page.
|
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | oh no |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | As a philosopher (Maarten Boudry) stated so beautifully (in Dutch) yesterday evening: (paraphrase) "Ofcourse not every muslim is responsible for this. Ofcourse most of them are well-meaning people just looking for a future for themselves. But one cannot make abstraction from the fact that their ideology, that their religion has a large overlap with the ideology of the islamists, the jihadists, the wahabists,... They pull inspiration from the same holy scriptures. And as long as that poisonous sting is not removed from those scriptures, the men and women in the streets will naturally see the common ground these opposite groups share. And they will continue to feel condemned." |
Egarran
03.23.17 | And that 'leader of the world' who sweared on 2 bibles killed 20 people at a wedding with drones. |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | ~lowkey wondering if Egarran saw my edit~ |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | Erragan, that's a false correlation and you know it. Please try to stay on topic. Do not practice what the French call 'noyer le poisson' |
Egarran
03.23.17 | No, it isn't. We stick to our outdated religion they stick to theirs. It's even the same deity.
Don't act like the western world don't create terrorism. Acting like completely incompetent morons in the ME while being christian. |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | I'll give you that the USA has a reponsibility for destabilizing regimes. But Occam's Razor will show you that it is religion every single one of these terrorists have in common. Even (important) terrorists who were born, raised and given every single opportunity in a western society. |
Egarran
03.23.17 | If western people can't see the correlation between our actions and their reaction, how should we expect muslims to? |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | Again, false correlation. |
Jasdevi087
03.23.17 | itt bakkermaarten reopens the discussion with "uhh if they's the tolerant left how come they can't tolerate me being a fuckwit? smiley face" |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.23.17 | whats even going on itt |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | I am mates with Muslims. East London is predominantly Muslim. They are lovely people in the majority just as Christians are and great swathes are 'moderate' but.......
Female Genital Mutilation
Segregation at places of worship
Dishonour and Shame
Arranged marriage of children
Forced marriage
The incompatibility of some of their beliefs with western culture. Halal/female modesty, alcohol, familial control.
honour based violence
Sharia Law and Councils
All fall under the umbrella of Islam and it DOES go on it IS a problem. This coupled with the radicalisation that goes on in prison where the amount of Muslim inmates has increased MASSIVELY all contributes to an unhealthy soup of problems where terrorism lies.
You just don't get the shit storm with Christianity, maybe the odd cult leader once in a blue moon but come on now.
|
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | What is going on is typical for Western societies as a whole: you have on the one side those who abide by the normative paradigmatic standards and think, act and reason within that frame. Then you have those, who continue to grow, who return to what one may call 'common sense' and are not restricted by the fear to offend others, thus they tell it as it is.
The thing with the first group is that they have never reached outside their frames, and if anyone tries to pull them out they get confused, uneasy for it doesn't align with what they have been told. They have been promised a world of love and compassion with tolerance for what is different and intolerance for those who oppose this utopia. Mankind is makeable, so they have learned.
Outside their frames, they cannot be. For outside these frames, e erything they have been told would turn out a lie and an utter waste of a slice of their lives.
So they become angry. But not all of them, no. Some do grasp the essence, and join us in the battle for liberty for the peoples of Europe. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | @zak let's be honest here, radical Islam is more violent and toxic than any other religion even in its most extreme form. How they can justify FGM and arranged marriage I'll never know. But it is the minority and every Muslim I've met/I'm friends with is kind, friendly and openly denounces extremism. |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | You kinda put the finger on the sore wound of the muslim community with your last sentence, tunaboy. Or at least one word of it: 'openly'. |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | You don't see them often (understandably, given the possible repercussions), but this is what an EX-muslim (Iranian descent and gay) had to say yesterday on my facebook feed:
" What boneless liberals never dare to say but as an exmuslim I find is: Islam is the worst curse ever happened to humanity.
99% of "Religious Terrorism" comes from a single religion named Islam , still its followers shamelessly deny the needs of reforming its violent core scriptures authored by a 7th century slave trader prophet .." |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | Original: http://nl.tinypic.com/r/25q9em1/9 |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | It's not all 'radical' though tuna dude. Some of it is principle to the religion/culture. The dishonour/shame thing trickles through to everyone.
Lot of mixed relationships are there? That's not to say it doesn't happen of course it does but not without some level of animosity and believe me the intolerance from the 'white,western, male' culture is absolutely nothing to that shown by Islam and yet everyone yields because we are all 'so tolerant' of all minorities.
We have become the useful idiots. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | That's the ugly truth though- it's not all radical and perhaps violence is so deeply embedded into Islam that it isn't something that can be changed. The dishonour culture is an absolute joke and completely backwards but that's how they think. People are too afraid to speak out about Islam because tolerance is more important than the truth. |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | EXACTLY!!!!!!! |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | And I'd also like to note that the vast majority of mixed relationships will be a female converting to Islam. Funny that. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | Death toll back down to 4, not sure how they made that mistake. |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | Fucking miracle it's not more. You seen the BBC footage of that woman jumping off the bridge as the 4x4 is hurtling up the pavement?
|
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | Just having lunch in the millennium dome, on training today nearby, metal detector and scanners to get in, the works. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | @Doof Must be pretty intense down there right now
@zak yeah saw that earlier, madness. Just glad there haven't been any more casualties even though there are still plenty of critically injured people. |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | That was all for you doof dude. They heard you were coming down and know that you don't dig The Who. They were scanning for a soul. |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | Nah, Kiss are playing there soon - no soul required |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | I see they've decided to take the terrorist off of the death toll. Discrageful!
#terroristsarevictims2. |
Jots
03.23.17 | in (late) response to fish's "golden age" thing: be aware that at that time, the middle east was largely a merging of three western civilizations (greek, persian, and jewish). there weren't really that many muslims aside from the ruling elite. the end of the islamic golden age was brought about largely by the influence of the turkish muslims. |
Egarran
03.23.17 | Let's celebrate western civilisation with these news: Happened yesterday. And it happens all the time: http://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/03/22/us-bombing-blamed-killing-dozens-civilians-sheltering-syrian-school
The double standard, the hypocrisy, the willful blindness. It doesn't stop terror, it creates more.
It would give the unnuanced critics of islam so much more momentum, if they acknowledged how detrimental and radicalising western/christian actions like that are to the cause of liberty and democracy. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | @zak what a disgrace, #justiceforterrorists |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | On a completely unrelated note, I'm looking forward to the next issue of Private Eye. |
TheSpaceMan
03.23.17 | okay so this thread is long and i barely read anything, but i'm sure i can guess where its been. I just wanna give my view on things... I think there's a fine line between islamaphobia and recognition of islamic threat. as a westerner, islam does provide a threat to my life greater than most other religion/belief group does and i'm not gonna pretend that christianity and islam are both equal evils in my life. it may be an insignificant threat compared to other things like car accidents or a house fire, but its there and i'm not gonna pretend to be oblivious to it. being islamaphobic implies an irrational fear to islam, meaning that if i meet a very friendly islmamic clerk at the supermarket, i will feel very much endanger for no reason. you can try to deny your own prejudice all you want, but a lot of times thats just for your own perception of higher ethics. i wouldn't label a man from Saudi Arabia a phobic of my country's majority religion if he was fearful of chirstian westerners because we are very much a threat to his life. I wouldn't let my sister walk through the part of tampa i live in at night by herself if it could be avoided because of the type of people living here. I'm sure there are people out there who'd call me racist or sexist for that, but i believe its rational. |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | @SpaceMan that's not racist or sexist it's just logical. Being wary of islam isn't islamophobic, I don't have an allegiance to any religion and I'll call out any religion for its bullshit regardless of which one it is. People shouldn't be afraid of calling out religion (especially islam) but they are out of fear of being labelled racist or intolerant/ |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | Anyone read 'Submission' by Houellebecq? Very mischievous. Some Sput heads might have a better life ruled by moderate muslims...a few wives, a better standing in society, less boredom...cheeky |
zakalwe
03.23.17 | A few wives? All them mother in laws? Fuck that I'd end up ploughing me motor into the gates of buck palace. |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | Just read it. Gotta love the miserable old French cvnt |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | His argument is that France is now so shit even moderate Muslim rule is an improvement - and the main character's life does improve for it
It's still pretty cynical about the Muslim religion too of course
Just have to ask yourself, just how great is England right now? Scary shit |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | I've read it. It was very convincing in the way that the new society that he imagined wasn't like a dystopia, but there were so many smaller things 'off' that you felt a bit weary. Especially the state of the native French people was a tell-tale; lethargic, indifferent to what has happened. |
bakkermaarten007
03.23.17 | "His argument is that France is now so shit even moderate Muslim rule is an improvement - and the main character's life does improve for it"
That's probably the scariest of all. That our 'praised' western societies are in such a decline; rendered absolutely defenseless. A new kind of software is ready to load into these societies of ours.
I won't accept it. |
Sinternet
03.23.17 | thread is actually surprisingly good nice |
Azertherion
03.23.17 | Except, Doofus, that Houellebecq is a novelty writer that likes to shock; and overall his books are quite boring. Nietzsche rip-offs all over the place for nothing constructive. My father however enjoys his poetry works, such as "La possibilité d'une ile".
But Houellebecq's point on "Submission" is largely exagerated and inacurrate. For what I do know, France is still ruled by fuckers from the dominant class. Not by muslim immigrates. Doesn't mean those would do a better job (I think it would be the exact countrary) thought. |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | Azer the population of France does largely convert to Islam by the end of the book and they are ruled 'by appearances' by Muslim scholars.
It is a fiction, a bit of fun, his books are very funny imo
I think his books are supposed to make people laugh as much as be shocked :/ |
Azertherion
03.23.17 | I wouldn't say his books are funny (or maybe I'm biaised, which is definitly likely). Maybe they actually are, but in any case the way he advertised for his book in social media (and moreover his general opinions on the subject) are quite disturbing. Not trying to be a SJW or anything, it's just someone I do not specially like as a person.
You're free to enjoy his books nonetheless, I maybe overreacted a bit on your comment. By the way, do you read french, or was the book translated in english ?
Edit : nice edit btw ^^ |
Tunaboy45
03.23.17 | @Doof Submission is on my (admittedly very long) reading list and I'll definitely get round to it in the near future. |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | 'it's just someone I do not specially like as a person' - I wouldn't want to share a pint with him but that doesn't matter to me. I think he has some interesting ideas and definitely has his tongue wedged firmly up his cheek.
I think his views/historical attitude on this subject is very muddled but I probably find that less disturbing than some of the less questioning opinions on the topic. At least he's questioning...everything, absolutely everything. That's refreshing to me at least.
It was the translation, my French is...merde |
Azertherion
03.23.17 | I did not know he had international recognition, that's...unexpected ! Good for him I guess.
"I probably find that less disturbing than some of the less questioning opinions on the topic." Who are you referring to ?
His critical analysis of the subject is relevant, and that's a point for him. The solutions he suggests aren't what I would say my cup of tea, he's a partisant of "cultural isolation", as if French (and overall Western) culture is immaculate and needs to protect itself from the evil forgein cultures trying to diluate it into some kind of livid atrocity. And that's a big no for me, not because he's necesseraly wrong on the analysis regarding foreign cultures, but because that's a dissumulated way to promote cultural stagnation. Anyway.
Plus I kinda dislike his writing style, it's far from being poor but it lacks proper energy, it seems self-sufficient. My "favourite" book of him would be "Les Particules Elementaires", for what it's worth. |
DoofusWainwright
03.23.17 | 'Who are you referring to?' No one in particular, I just feel it's a complex issue and I don't begin to assume I understand it so I'm wary of people who think there's a simple solution/strategy/ideology to cure these current ills. Some people for instance will say with certainty what the root cause is, or when/where this all began - to me this is still uncertain, yes I've watched 'Bitter Lake' and such. Everything is far from clear imo
'Particules is referred to as 'Atomised' in the translation, it was the first of his books I read and yes probably the best. I'm not convinced he's a 'great' writer - I more engage with his ideas and find his worldview addictive to step into from time to time |
Azertherion
03.23.17 | I mean, some of his reflections aren't far from my point of view (especially those regarding the fall of values in general, he sounds like a romantic, but born one houndred and fifty years too late) and his point of view isn't uninteresting; however I think his books lack a certain form of dynamism, he's not outraged nor disillusioned, he's passive. Yet he has to be ambiguous and shock his reader.
"I'm not convinced he's a 'great' writer " Well in France he's often regarded as "the next big thing" by the media (which isn't worth much I admit), even thought he lacks a proper style. I remember what Raphael Metz said about him :"Everyone seems to focus on Houellebecq's sociological views, yet everyone forgets to speak about litterature".
Now he has his fans, which is understandable. Now I'll admit that I'm not that much into sociology or novelty litterature; I'm currently trying to finish Matter and Memory by Bergson (even thought I took a break to read "Froth on the Daydream"; simple but quite lovely little novel). |
anarchistfish
03.24.17 | "But he was known to the police and his previous convictions included causing grievous bodily harm, possession of offensive weapons and public order offences. He was believed to have been living in the West Midlands."
damn looks like religion is really what corrupted this guy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39372154 |
zakalwe
03.24.17 | He'd kept his nose clean for 14 years, was in his 50s and 'settled' I'd say religion had something to do with him being a bell-end |
Dedes
03.24.17 | "@SpaceMan that's not racist or sexist it's just logical. Being wary of islam isn't islamophobic, I don't have an allegiance to any religion and I'll call out any religion for its bullshit regardless of which one it is. People shouldn't be afraid of calling out religion (especially islam) but they are out of fear of being labelled racist or intolerant/"
Preach it man. Islam is one of the most radical and corrupt, if not THE most radical and lowly religion their is. The good Islams you see don't really follow their religion and aren't truly "Islam". |
unclereich
03.24.17 | People hate islam for the same reasons they hate Christianity(impedes intellectual growth i.e creationism) yet one is called an islamophobe and the other is bill nye
|
zakalwe
03.24.17 | Also another absolute peach is the increase in anti Semitic hate-crime but nobody dare draw any conclusions on that one and it's not really see as an issue for some reason. What's the problem? Not marginalised enough for you? |
unclereich
03.24.17 | Well said my dude |
Cryptkeeper
03.24.17 | Really all that needed to be done was forcibly distribute muslim immigrants across the country to prevent them from forming massive Islamic enclaves. It would have forced them to integrate.
Also it's absolutely hilarious to see bakker try to act intelligent |
Egarran
03.24.17 | Let's not be negative. Focus on all the things we have in common with islamists. Just take the US president:
"The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families."
This way we can keep the conflict going forever! |
anarchistfish
03.24.17 | did he actually fucking say that |
TheSpaceMan
03.24.17 | "yet one is called an islamophobe and the other is bill nye"
lol |
Egarran
03.24.17 | You can even hear him yourself: https://youtu.be/WWiaYQUV2oM
He is christian. |
Tunaboy45
03.24.17 | I'm not defending the scumbag that did this but this so childish
http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/6DA5/production/_95296082_daily-star.jpg |
Cryptkeeper
03.24.17 | I mean the British did invent tabloid |
henryChinaski
03.24.17 | Not only childish, but fucking embarrassing too. |
zakalwe
03.24.17 | It's odd but that yank doesn't half look the unabomber. |
anarchistfish
03.24.17 | "http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/6DA5/production/_95296082_daily-star.jpg"
i saw that wtf |
anarchistfish
03.24.17 | what's wrong with being bald anyway |
zakalwe
03.24.17 | With all this terrorism nonsense going on, please don't forget the other fave pastime of your average 'fundamentalist'
https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/news/29-defendants-charged-non-recent-child-sexual-offences |
Egarran
03.24.17 | Too bad they don't have a cool pope. |
bakkermaarten007
03.24.17 | "With all this terrorism nonsense going on, please don't forget the other fave pastime of your average 'fundamentalist'
https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/news/29-defendants-charged-non-recent-child-sexual-offences"
Sickening. And it looks almost industrialized. I don't know if it's related, but I remember a paki child abuse network a few years ago in a British city. The story was obscured heavily due to fears of being branded racists...
The absurdity of today's society... |
bakkermaarten007
03.24.17 | And lol at the Daily Star. What a disgraceful way of reporting. It's like they wrote that frontpage in a drunken stupor |
Egarran
03.25.17 | I feel we should make a temporary compromise with this Diderot quote:
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." |
Azertherion
03.25.17 | Too bad that Diderot is an asshole with very little interesting things to offer.
No more seriously this anti religion circlejerk is completly stupid. Regardless of your opinion on organised religion and it's sociological consequences, declaring that religion is uniliterally bad because "religious people are violent" is forgetting that literally every culture revolved around religion and it's respective philosophy. Religion provided structure, balance and culture to primitive societies. Compare the roman empire to the german barbarians. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | But this is only about organized and state religions. I'm all for chanting to spirits under the moon. |
zakalwe
03.25.17 | We have to be inclusive. How dare you point the finger at one religion for being violent when all religions are equally oppressive, brutal, dominant, subjugating and intolerant.
History shows that Christianity murdered and maimed so it's only right that others are doing it right now in the present 'enlightened times'
All the divisiveness and pure hate that comes with Islam is found everywhere so I say the odd terrorist attack is something we are just going to have to live with. We are all human, don't demonise terrorists they just need a hug and a bit of understanding and then they'll accept they've been silly and will start to integrate successfully.
Now we just need to understand that some people identify as others, some people have it a lot worse than others and all people who think otherwise are Hitler. I have a dream, that one day we will all swim the ocean together while the storm rages but we will prevail because the dolphins whom we have married and formed loving sexual relationships with will take us to their underground sea kingdom/sex dungeon and we will all live in harmony.
Ugggghhhmmmmmmmm blowholes.
|
Azertherion
03.25.17 | "organized and state religions"
Why are you even talking about sunnit islam then, it's the epithome of a "free" religion : no clergy, only imams, believers are only entitled to the Koran (which means entitled to it's own subjective interpretation). It should be amazing then, isn't ?
Turns out it isn't, how strange is that ? |
Egarran
03.25.17 | You mean sunni? Lots of nations are sunni. You have to explain further. |
Azertherion
03.25.17 | "History shows that Christianity murdered and maimed "
Christianity murdered people in crusade with it's bare hands for only religious and holy purposes, nothing to do with greed and thirst of power from the pope, no. And it is for sure a totally useless current that did not helped to promote art and cultural devloppement.
How people take everything out of context so easily is beyond me. Concerning the rest of your message, I don't know if I'm supposed to laugh or feel aghast.
|
zakalwe
03.25.17 | I was quite clearly taking the piss. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | Az, in your case the problem might not be external. |
Azertherion
03.25.17 | I quite don't get the ad personam attack but I'll get away with it I guess.
Concerning your message; 87% of muslims are sunni. There isn't that much further to explain, you talked about "organized and state religions". Sunni is not one of those, regardless of your analysis's veracity. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | I am not sure how islam is not an organized religion. But sure, you're right: Sunni islam is also a stupid religion all things considered. |
Azertherion
03.25.17 | "how islam is not an organized religion"
Well for one simple reason : there is no clergy in it. Clergy is what structurates the religion and turn it into an institution (The Church is the catholic autority; there is no religious autority in sunni islam), what interprets the holy texts and what organises the cult.
In sunni islam, cult organisation is managed by imams; however everyone is free to interpret to Coran as they want AND to consider this interpretation as representative towards what islam is. There is no pope nor religious autority that leads sunni people towards the "right" religious interpretation; as long as you've read the Koran, knowledge runs throught your veins. According to sunni islam at least.
In parallel, sunni islam has the poorest religious culture : art, litterature, philosophical depth, theology; the contrast with Shiit islam (that has a clergy) is impressive. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | Thank you. But I think it's a very semantic thing, as long as societies are built around a holy book and authorities can make laws and preach from it - there is some organization around it.
It's still islam, it doesn't lose all the baggage by not having a formal hierarchy.
But what to label it then? |
Azertherion
03.25.17 | The thing is, religion isn't "organised" if a state can organise itself around it, those are, in laic western countries, two different entities. A state having a state religion is a religious state, but religion =/= religious hierarchy =/= state hierarchy. Iran is a religious state revolving around an organised religion that is Shiit Islam. Tunisia is a religious state revolving around an unorganised religion that is Sunni Islam.
Your confusion probably comes from the fact that you assume that western countries were historically religious countries, built around Catholicism/Protestantism/Orthodoxism. However, what makes a religion a religion isn't it's hierarchy (The Catholic Church isn't Catholicism, however Catolicism depends from the Vatican, the Pope, etc); a religion is categorized by it's beliefs, rites and common behaviors. Buddhism is a religion, however it has no secular clergy nor religious hierarchy; it only has regular clergy, monks in their monasteries, that incarn and preserve religious culture (something that Islam has not).
How do you label islam ? Well, as it is, a religion. Religion isn't necesseraly political nor social; most eastern religions have no secular clergy and therefore no political assumptions. Sunni Islam is quite an exception as it always have been bounded to political subjects; Islam has always been a matter of warfare domination, as the very reason Mahomet was followed is because he was a great warrior and conqueror. Islam aims expansion and conquest. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | That middle paragraph, I have read it three times now and I'm clearly too stupid to get your point. |
zakalwe
03.25.17 | I am sick to death of this shit.
Deconstruct it as much as you want, live in an area with a high Muslim population that was once majority 'culturally western' and learn something your studies, ideologies, perceptions, beliefs and hopes will never teach. The Truth. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | Sucks that Trump is now your spiritual leader. |
zakalwe
03.25.17 | Is he fuck. I let truth, beauty, fact, compassion, freedom, tolerance, acceptance, the ability to question, reason, empathy, strength and love lead my way and yeah some of that does lead to hate but some are going to have to deal with it while I listen to what they have to say and form my own opinion about it. |
KILL
03.25.17 | preach it zak |
MrSirLordGentleman
03.25.17 | zak 2020 |
KILL
03.25.17 | farage has competition |
Tunaboy45
03.25.17 | zak would destroy Farage |
Egarran
03.25.17 | Still sucks that when you hate on islam, people will think you're probably a Trump supporter.
My point in this is not that muslims are precious and misunderstood peace advocates.
But we must leave behind the irrational traditions of our own society before credibly taking on islam.
Are you imagining that islam will just go away without us changing our culture? That's not how it works. |
zakalwe
03.25.17 | The original foundations of our society are what would wipe out Islam.
Unfortunately we have been deracinated and told that our society is unfair, racist and privileged so we just become subjugated and assimilated.
The UK is finished, it's too late.
There literally needs something cataclysmic to happen in order for things to change. WWIII type stuff. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | Spoken like a true terrorist. |
zakalwe
03.25.17 | lol. Obviously I don't condone it I'm just saying it has happened throughout history and history has an incredibly bad habit of repeating itself. |
Egarran
03.25.17 | Foreigners come into your country, destabilize the old order and kill a bunch of people. You send young men to their country to avenge them and spread more fear.
You get a group of extremists who hate them, hate the 'collaborators' and dream of cataclysm.
You have so much in common.
Back in the old days a good war would get rid of the brave nationalists, but now they are fighing impotently behind a keyboard. |
Azertherion
03.25.17 | "Unfortunately we have been deracinated and told that our society is unfair, racist and privileged so we just become subjugated and assimilated."
Wait, is /r/altright leaking ? |
zakalwe
03.25.17 | A bit yeah. Like I've said I don't align myself to the left, right, or anyone. I base opinions on empirical evidence, facts and what I pick up here and there in order to find the truth even if I don't particularly agree with it. |
Azertherion
03.25.17 | That's pretty straightforward. My advice to you then would be to take a plane to Lagos, Nigeria (or any central Africa country). You'll land in Victoria Island, then go straight to downtown. Then maybe you'll realise how unfair and privileged our society is.
Now concerning your faithful empirism, it's pretty much up to you, however there is no solidity regarding empirical statements, therefore your opinion is necesserally imperfect (as it relies on your ability to see the wole world at once).
I personally do not give much credit to empirical assumptions; nothing is sure nor certain until it's proved. |
zakalwe
03.25.17 | "My advice to you then would be to take a plane to Lagos, Nigeria (or any central Africa country). You'll land in Victoria Island, then go straight to downtown. Then maybe you'll realise how unfair and privileged our society is"
I'm under no allusions mate. I've been to Soweto, Mombasa the favelas of Rio and a number of places of abject destitution. I've seen dead bodies due to malnutrition for fuck sake, that was in London though. |
bakkermaarten007
03.26.17 | What zak has said and repeated many times in this and other threads is testament to his empirical foundation of his beliefs. And I applaud it.
Unfortunately for those who argue against it with theoretical arguments- that have since long crumbled under reality- it'll take their own piece of empirical 'kick in the butt' reality to finally come to understand that their theories don't protect them from anything in the realm that has not been relativized by postmodernist thought. (aka the physical world).
|
EphemeralEternity
03.26.17 | i just wish the media would completely stop sensationalizing/catastrophizing (basically reporting) on terrorism and throwing that word around so heedlessly.
My grandma and her friends are scared to go to the local shops now.
I'm not sure what they'r trying to achieve beyond selling papers and galvanizing people into supporting radical political parties with xenophobic/biggoted policies. I guess i answered my own question there.
|
bakkermaarten007
03.26.17 | But the answer to your question is wrong. That your grandma gets scared means nothing. Media have a duty to report and they already underreport severely.
More than is good for their plausibility, it takes social media driving to get them to report. |
Egarran
03.26.17 | We need everything to change for the better while we stay the same. If we just get angry and desperate enough, this will happen.
Never mind that terrorists share this mindset. |
EphemeralEternity
03.26.17 | i'm just asking whether fear mongering is really the right course of action (because that's exactly what it is either directly or indirectly). Yeah they have an obligation to report but the emphasis and focus they place on different 'types' of news needs to be revised.
They'll often run the most cursory coverage on something comparatively 'tame' which actually effects the wider population in their daily lives (for better or worse) - but obviously terrorism is so much more confronting/lurid that they're willing to focus most their time/resources on it.
Seems counterproductive to me.
Doesn't do anything to deter terrorism but helps the 'terrorists' achieve their agenda in a sense. |
Egarran
03.26.17 | Radicalised lone actor kills 4 and the west loses their minds in a fearwank. US bombs kill 200 civilians in Syria and no one notices.
Yeah, not exactly objective. |
EphemeralEternity
03.26.17 | yeah that's disgusting. I hadn't even heard of the recent collateral in Syria but I know it's been going on in the middle east for the past decade and a half to some extent. |
Egarran
03.26.17 | Actually the latest was Mosul in Iraq. |
bakkermaarten007
03.26.17 | "We need everything to change for the better while we stay the same. If we just get angry and desperate enough, this will happen. "
If we stay the same, they'll win. We've stayed the same for decades and it has just led to an islamization of big European cities. In societies where you have to co-exist with other cultures, the most aggressive culture will win. We have tried to westernize but it has only known little success. Whether you think changing is giving in to terrorists, or changing is necessary to grant a future to our children, society will change severely either way.
One cannot stop a trend line. |
bakkermaarten007
03.26.17 | "Radicalised lone actor kills 4 and the west loses their minds in a fearwank. US bombs kill 200 civilians in Syria and no one notices.
Yeah, not exactly objective."
In war, people expect many casualties causerd by the enemy. People feel a bigger shock when they discover that some of their fellow citizens despise the society so much, they want to destroy it from within. |
anarchistfish
03.27.17 | bakker's right, we already knew all the brown people would die BEFORE we bombed them. new news pls |
Egarran
03.27.17 | He has obviously cracked the code to this problem. |
bakkermaarten007
03.27.17 | It's pretty basic. The wrong analogies you guys continue to make, phew. Don't ever walk into a real debate, the moderator would leave with severe migraine. |
Azertherion
03.27.17 | bakker seems to belong to some kind of strange specie, the kind you'd only find on 4chan or /r/TheDonald.
Sorry for the ad personam attack, but saying something like "In war, people expect many casualties causerd by the enemy" is completly dumb. The media isn't supposed to seek for the most shocking/clickbait views, but to promote an objective enough viewpoint on any evenement occuring in the world. Especially if your country is the one responsible for losses; remember the "surgical strikes" during Irak War ? Where were you calling them out for fake news back then ?
|
bakkermaarten007
03.27.17 | "Sorry for the ad personam attack, but saying something like "In war, people expect many casualties causerd by the enemy" is completly dumb."
Don't say sorry if you don't mean it. Yawn
"Where were you calling them out for fake news back then ? "
And do not lie either.
|
Azertherion
03.27.17 | Lying...about what ? I'm curious, which part of reality am I twisting ? |
Egarran
03.28.17 | He seems like the kind of guy who considers nuances a sign of weakness. You know, like an extremist.
Again, we should not act like the western world don't create terrorism. Our authorities are acting like incompetent murderous morons in the ME while being christian.
We need to change that before focusing on outsiders. |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | If no action whatsoever was taken in the Middle East people would be up in arms, it'd probably lead to terrorist attacks as a result of 'Western idleness' but again that wouldn't be the 'real' reason.
Western nations intervene and we are the 'cause' of the terrorist acts that follow?
Islamic nations have been bombing the fuck out of each other for years all in the name of Islam. There's a key element to their acts if you open your eyes you'll see it, it's staring you right in the face dude. Don't be afraid to address it. |
EphemeralEternity
03.28.17 | got into an argument today with a muslim in the library, overhear him proclaiming how terrorism originated in the west and how the west are responsible for destroying 'thousands' of cultures and religions throughout history...
(Deliberate) misapprehensions on the history of terrorism aside ... coz striving to subjugate the global population under a worldwide caliphate isn't going to encroach on anyone's culture/religion. Couldn't believe the ignorance of the cunt |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | Islamaphobe and racist to boot. SILENCE!!!!! |
EphemeralEternity
03.28.17 | dude i'm a monster i'd destroy a thousand cultures if i could |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | Nice one Mothra |
DoofusWainwright
03.28.17 | 'western nations intervene' well, the West are significant stakeholders in the region and have made a lot of shady deals. They have duties of protection concerning Israel and Saudi Arabia. They ARE part of the region - who still believes in states and nations? See what corporations and goods you need to survive and then you have a closer view of your true 'nationality'. Intervening? No, we are inherently tied in and have been for decades. I see no choice there. Also, religion and 'way of life' are interchangeable in a lot of ways. The west has a religion or new collective 'faith' just not traditionally recognised (Hollywood, love, science, freedom, materialism, humanism?). Western countries would kill to protect that so we can't be surprised when others retaliate due to perceived threats concerning theirs. All back to survival and conquest, as it ever was.
Whether the west is genuinely threatening these lifestyles or these cultures are bent on conquest I don't know. It's complex. All I know is it's hard to defend ISIS in any shape or form as they're total cvnts. |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | I hear ya doof dude. Iron Lion Zion |
DoofusWainwright
03.28.17 | If it came to it I'd fight to the death against ISIS, that's a no brainer. Other conflicts it's more difficult to ethically defend.
ISIS, 100%, fuck 'em |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | lol.
You wouldn't last 5mins without writing a review about the rattle of an AK47 and give it a holding 3 rating. |
Egarran
03.28.17 | ISIS is just the latest incarnation of islamism. Remember Taliban and Al'Quada?
It speaks volumes of the west's inability to solve this problem with bombs. Yet we still think it's the best thing. All us insignificant proles can discuss impotently on the net while that industry is happily marching on. |
DoofusWainwright
03.28.17 | I'd rate the death rattles of my confirmed kills |
EphemeralEternity
03.28.17 | yeah it's a shit situation but what are you suggesting Egarran? (apologies but i cbf perusing this entire thread) |
Egarran
03.28.17 | That we work on dismantling christianity with at least the same vigour as islam.
And of course for governments to not create more terrorism and hate by destroying the middle east. |
EphemeralEternity
03.28.17 | they're some nice prospect but completely chimeric. I'd love to eradicate every form of organized religion from the globe tomorrow and hope that secular humanist values are enough to morally guide people through life but I think that might involve a sliiiightly too optimistic take on human nature |
DoofusWainwright
03.28.17 | 'Dismantling christianity' Why? Floundering all by itself.
It's more lifestyles that are opposed than religions imo
Lifestyles won't be impacted that much by dropping religion - people can just fight behind a political banner instead, or an ideological one, or a racial one.
People have their own way of life and protect their self interests, and unless we by some miracle transform into a utopian Star Trek Next Generation society there are always going to be people in conflict just because they're defending those interests. |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | Christianity does have its place, you can't just dismantle it because it doesn't fit ideologically for whatever reason. Christianity does adapt itself to modern society.
Islam is a different kettle of fish because of its absolutely unbending will to concede anything.
|
Azertherion
03.28.17 | "that secular humanist values are enough to morally guide people through life"
If you refer to western culture, I think you overlook a lot of things to say regarding our western lifestyles. I don't remember muslims nor christians advocating for global warming or Third World exploitation. |
DoofusWainwright
03.28.17 | The world is clearly setting the table for the 'peak resources' battles to come after some early rounds of sparring. Could get nasty pretty quick unless alternatives and tech/science come to the rescue. |
Egarran
03.28.17 | Doof, just underlining the important part: Dismantling christianity _with at least the same vigour as islam_
Islam is also floundering, to say the least, but that doesn't stop us from trying to fight it, does it? |
Egarran
03.28.17 | "Christianity does have its place". Yes and so does islam and nordic myths etc |
DoofusWainwright
03.28.17 | Egarran - the West is dismantling Christianity way quicker than Islam though :/ |
wham49
03.28.17 | nobody is dismantling Christianity, they are doing it to themselves, they lost all the power due to their unwillingnes to accept scientific truths, they make themselves look silly, and why would anybody follow some preacher from their church, what the hell does he know that you couldnt read for yourself and have your own thought on it, not some ridiculous notion from somebodies whos job it is to push it on you |
DoofusWainwright
03.28.17 | I dunno, Western governments have made it real easy to get married without being religious now, etc. Who the hell gets christened these days? Lots of policy change out there. They're still attempting to dismantle Christianity way ahead of dismantling Islam :/ |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.28.17 | just get rid of all religions agreed |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | People turn to it in times of crisis and it gives hope, strength, solace, serenity and happiness to millions of people which in turn influences how they treat others. You can't just write it off because you're so 'enlightened' and religion is 'bad' |
EphemeralEternity
03.28.17 | I just despise how it preys on peoples insecurities and effectively motivates them to act morally thru fear and threat. Still it's proven more effective than any other mechanism in that respect. |
AngryLittleAlchemist
03.28.17 | religion is bad[2] because i'm enlightened[2] |
Azertherion
03.28.17 | "nobody is dismantling Christianity, they are doing it to themselves, they lost all the power due to their unwillingnes to accept scientific truths, they make themselves look silly, and why would anybody follow some preacher from their church"
Careful with that axe, Eugene, it's so edgy you could cut yourself with it.
Christianity is so out of touch with science and reality that the Pope recently advocated for evolution theory and that George Lemaitre, a catholic priest, invented the term "Big Bang" and it's theory.
|
EphemeralEternity
03.28.17 | then it gets to the point where it's been so diluted/modernized that you may as well can the archaic mysticism bullshit altogether, right? |
Egarran
03.28.17 | That's the dream. |
anarchistfish
03.28.17 | "Don't ever walk into a real debate, the moderator would leave with severe migraine."
now you're just projecting |
bakkermaarten007
03.28.17 | It isn't that we (zak, myself and others around the world) and you (those who think we're racist or islamophobes, whatever) have opposing opinions, what I find so bothering.
It is that you deliberately saw or blindly let holes being sawed into our own ships , that is what I find deeply unsettling. |
bakkermaarten007
03.28.17 | Some freaking dystopia. |
dreamgazing
03.28.17 | Jesus Christ these redpilled fucks
Turned into a shit thread. No actual mourning of the victims of the crimes but instead has turned into a hub for pretty disgusting views. |
zakalwe
03.28.17 | Groan.
Light another tea light and it might make you feel better. |
TheSpaceMan
03.29.17 | honestly, i like any situation where people can talk about their rhetoric, unfortunately yours tends to be both hypocritical and silencing gaze |
Egarran
03.29.17 | Well, he opened with 'Jesus Christ', so we know not to take him too seriously. |
wham49
03.29.17 | "Christianity is so out of touch with science and reality that the Pope recently advocated for evolution theory and that George Lemaitre, a catholic priest, invented the term "Big Bang" and it's theory."
Recently advocated, only about 70 years too late. And I am unaware of the Big Bang thing, although they still use dates that fit their religious beliefs, I know the guy in France that studied and came up with the rock cycle theory was tortured and killed by the church because he said it took 20-40 thousand years for the cycle to complete. |
Tunaboy45
03.29.17 | It baffles me that religion still exists in the 21st Century. After all of these scientific discoveries and technological advancements people still believe in the magical sky genie. |
EphemeralEternity
03.29.17 | it's definitely dying out amongst the younger generation though.
still prevalent because it's still institutionalized/engrained In the education system // introjection from parents and family// the apparent universal need for divine purpose and mysticism // it offers a means of unity for anyone feeling isolated // it's a comforting prospect esp for those whose life is fucking miserable -- the thought that justice will be served in a day of reckoning and the ability to see your loved ones again // it becomes a diversion even addiction for some people who have little else //
I think it's pretty clear that the majority who identify as religious don't actually believe in the parables and lore and shit, tbh deep down I bet most don't even believe in the theism side of it, but desperation can cause people to think/act very irrationally. |
Azertherion
03.29.17 | "only about 70 years too late"
Darwin published his theory in 1859. Not to mention that the first ones to criticize his works weren't the Church but his fellow scientists colleagues. While evolution theory became popular on his lifetime, you have to wait until 1930 for Natural Selection to be recognized by the scientific community.
Moreover, Darwin was an orthodox christian and considered nature to be a divine creation according to the bible.
"although they still use dates that fit their religious beliefs"
So do you, except your beliefs aren't religious.
"And I am unaware of the Big Bang thing"
Never too late to learn : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
"I know the guy in France that studied and came up with the rock cycle theory was tortured and killed by the church because he said it took 20-40 thousand years for the cycle to complete."
Who are you talking about ? I'm french and I've never heard of his fate, in general people take Galileo as an example. If you refer to Nicholas Sténon, he died of illness in Germany and embraced catholicism in 1667. Jean Paul II canonised him in 1988. Very few scientists were tortured or killed; most victims of the Inquisition were spanish protestants during religion wars in the XVI century.
To my knowledge, the only scientist victim of the Church was Giordano Bruno, as he deliberatly declared the Bible as erroneous; he pretended that Jesus Christ was an impostor and that Satan would eventually be saved. He died as an heretic, not because of his mathematical works but because of his theological opinions. While it is widely regrettable, it happened in a political context of religious war; and moreover, it has nothing to do with the Church being out of touch with science.
|
Azertherion
03.29.17 | "After all of these scientific discoveries and technological advancements people still believe in the magical sky genie."
What baffles me more is that people replaced religion by science in their beliefs but in the end are still ignorant about both. |
Egarran
03.29.17 | So a military authority ok'd the bombing of +100 civilians in Mosul. If you asked him if he is christian, he would most likely say yes.
Either because he identifies that way, or because he wants to avoid controversy. This is not the sign of a struggling culture, this is the sign of an accepted mainstream. And clearly food for other extremists. |
wham49
03.29.17 | not the theory but the person who coined the phrase
and by church I mean government, which back then was the same thing, his name escapes me, when I taught earth science we had a little article in the tet book about him, that his studies showed that the rock cycle is so long, and it did nto go with the bibles time frame for the creation and he would not back down and was killed for it, maybe because you are French you dont know it because like in America we repress thing we do not like about ourselves,
and many many unnamed people have had a terrible fate from goning against the church |
Azertherion
03.29.17 | "and by church I mean government"
No. The only thing the church ever governed as a government was it's own lands. Around 1300 it was approximatively a quarter of Italy large.
If you're talking about the moment where Church and the French government were one, let me throw a fact at you : it never happened. While the clergy had a lot of political power, especially when the Pope was at his strongest, decisions always came from the richiest camp : nobility.
"maybe because you are French you dont know it because like in America we repress thing we do not like about ourselves, "
..............?
A lot of religious killings happened in France throught the times; most of them are archived. Here's an example : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre
"not the theory but the person who coined the phrase"
Along with the theory. He was the first to publish about it, he obviously did not made up the theory all by himself as it was a fight of conceptions along the scientific community; however he's the first to properly employ the term "Big Bang" and to explain it's definition.
"in America we repress thing we do not like about ourselves"
Still waiting for your country to officially recognize the Irak invasion as illegal and Hiroshima/Nagazaki's nukings as a crime against humanity.
" and many many unnamed people have had a terrible fate from goning against the church"
No way. So did many priests that died during the French revolution for committing the crime of being priests(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution).
Countrary to what school makes you think, the reason why people that went against church and refused to atone died isn't because they "broke the greater law", it's because they were politically dangerous at times where religion was a vital social stabilizer. Hardly anyone on any courts of anytime believed in God or in religion, the reason why they tolerated it's power is because they needed people to believe in a greater justice so they don't begin to steal, rape and kill their neighbor.
It was different times and different rules, yet you interpret it as anyone was as rich as today. Back then, people were poor and ready to do anything to survive, or live in better conditions. Religion was a vital organisation that stabilized society by giving it a direction, a morale and a culture. It has a countless amount of flaws, that aren't specific to religion itself but to human nature.
But it's easier to take anything out of context and declare : "religion bad, me no like". |
wham49
03.29.17 | thanks for the history lesson, I am sure we are all better for it. |
Azertherion
03.29.17 | Thanks. Quite a petty argument thought.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right#This_is_Beyond_Me
|
Egarran
03.30.17 | Az, you may not be good at recognizing irony, but you've made some good posts here. |
dreamgazing
03.30.17 | lol spaceman I'm not silencing anyone; Say what you feel like saying, be honest and true to your ideologies and this of course applies to anyone, but your freedom to express your thoughts does not limit me from dismissing them at a personal level. |
dreamgazing
03.30.17 | also Azertherion is the most level headed user in the thread |
Azertherion
03.30.17 | "Az, you may not be good at recognizing irony, but you've made some good posts here." Thank you (unless it's another layer of irony ?).
It's harder to perceive irony in your second language; however I thought my link was enough to dismiss any doubts ?
Out of all this stuff, my main concern isn't that much about religion, it's rather about the fact that we interpret every fact out of context, leaving very few room for "objective" facts to guide us. Most people on this thread either criticized religion because it's "cool" and fits their leftist ideas , either dodged the debate to emphasize on nationalism/sheer racism and extremism in baak's case.
|
Tunaboy45
06.03.17 | Now another
Just fuck everything |
zakalwe
06.03.17 | Starting to sink in yet? Nah course it isn't, this will continue to happen and nothing will change because The UK is no more. |
DoofusWainwright
06.03.17 | Guess it's partly trying to influence the general election. Police telling civilians to run and hide...effectively a battle zone out there. I think the time is coming when more 'preemptive' action is going to start - you can't suspect you have 12000 known potential terrorists in the country and let this happen every week. Things are about to get very dark in the UK. |
Tunaboy45
06.03.17 | how the fuck do you stop a van attack
you can't |
zakalwe
06.03.17 | Barriers on the bridges. |
DoofusWainwright
06.03.17 | Usually attackers are known to some extent by the police/authorities - you start looking at/dealing with these 'individuals of interest' differently. It's getting that bad that...well, things could get that bad. Tagged, locked up, house arrest, deported...it's all on now. |
Tunaboy45
06.03.17 | put everyone in one of those inflatable hamster balls |
Tunaboy45
06.03.17 | I think the best thing we can do right now is nuke London, that will definitely stop it. This is why Corbyn isn't right for us, nuking isn't good but the rewards outweigh the costs. |
zakalwe
06.03.17 | Convert |
Tunaboy45
06.03.17 | Run |
rabidfish
06.03.17 | Cops are fucking pigs what a fucking surprise. Don't. Trust. Them. |
DoofusWainwright
06.03.17 | Eh? |
FullOfSounds
06.04.17 | Fucking awful. Thoughts/prayers go out to everyone effected |
hal1ax
06.04.17 | just read about this, just terrible :[
condolences to the victims and all yall brit homies. b safe |
hal1ax
06.04.17 | do less pertaining to what? |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "Guess it's partly trying to influence the general election. Police telling civilians to run and hide...effectively a battle zone out there. "
Maybe... But it's ramadan at the moment, a period when radical muslims always do that tad more... |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Roadmap to saving western Europe:
1. Criminalize anti-western aspects of Islam (that's a whole lot) and retract Islam's recognition as a religion.
2. Employ the army to hold down inevitable muslim riots.
3. Start to identify family and friends of known muslim radicals and investigate their nature via nationwide taskforces.
4. If they proof dangerous elements holding anti-western ideas, you...(see 5 and 6)
5. ...lock up those holding only European passports.
6. deport those holding double passports.
7. You revitalize the legal system, allowing you to extend jailtime indefinitely.
8. (and this is the hardest one): you do the utmost to revamp people's national identities. Proud nations are quicker to react to threats, have more dutyful citizens and generally lack that 'vacuum' that allows 'new software' to be loaded (islam on the void of western christianity and decadent materialism) |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Ofcourse that will never happen and we're more likely to see a submission scenarion than anything else. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Woops, I forgot about reforming the social welfare system. |
Artuma
06.04.17 | nationalism ftw |
ShadowRemains
06.04.17 | > checks thread
> sees bakker posting
> http://i.imgur.com/XujHL.gif |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | Bakker - demonising muslims as above is going to have everyone fearing either world war 3 or another holocaust in Europe.
'Retract Islsm's recognition as a religion' - is that truly necessary if you criminalise the 'anti-western' aspects? |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "'Retract Islsm's recognition as a religion' - is that truly necessary if you criminalise the 'anti-western' aspects?"
Yes. In many nations, Islam gets government funding due to that status. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | So you'd demolish the mosques or you'd relabel them Islamic club houses or something? |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "demonising muslims as above is going to have everyone fearing either world war 3 or another holocaust in Europe."
Disagree. World War three will happen due to decisions in the past, not decisions to make it right again- if we're not already too late.
Demonising muslims? No. Demonising Islam? Yes. It's not the same. We need to sensibilize people, telling them only the truth and the connectionb between intolerance, jihadism and Islam. I think we're demonizing even the good muslims, right now, by not publicly drawing that connection. People see there is a connection and start listening to a bunch of people who do see that connection but don't draw the distinction between the few good and the radical. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "So you'd demolish the mosques or you'd relabel them Islamic club houses or something?"
Demolish a part of them, keep some ones but strictly control who's speaking there. Mosques would be purely places of interest. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | This may sound farfetched now, but I predict that we'll see more of these voices (advocating such measures) in the coming 5 years. Please think of me then =)
Maybe it is already too late thoughh. |
Artuma
06.04.17 | "World War three will happen due to decisions in the past, not decisions to make it right again- if we're not already too late."
make europe great again yeah |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "make europe great again yeah"
Lol |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | Practically speaking demonising Islam will be the same as demonising muslim people though unfortunately. At least for a few generations (that's a long time).
Imagine your whole adult life you've been a Metallica fan and now the government say the worship of Metallica is forbidden - you'll feel you've done nothing wrong to be treated this way and man are you going to be terrified of your history even if you swear off being a 'Tallica fan going forward. Recipe for paranoia, resentment, second class citizen status and probably vigilante attacks among the citizen population.
|
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | The only demonization muslims feel and will feel, is through the big acts and little acts that show Islam's face.
Like I said before: if we manage to clear all the dangerous elements from western society, what we're left with are the good muslims who embrace western society. No more muslim terror and no more muslims seclusion will do them more good than they could ever wish for. They'll be accepted. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Paranoia continues to grow after every attack and every exception muslims claim for themselves, right now. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | I don't believe your ideas are that far fetched now bakker - if these attacks keep happening at a rate of roughly one a month people will need more solutions/ideas on the table and I'm sure there will be politicians on the fringes testing the waters...and if they meet some positive reaction the more mainstream parties would adopt them. I mean the laughter at UKIP is starting to fade more and more by the day, they're hardly considered a joke anymore. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Well, UKIP managed to force what is perhaps the biggest earthshift for Britain since the end of WWII, after all |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | Also, I still feel it's a shame we can't ever capture these attackers and put them on trial. They're usually n'er do well recent converts who are probably thick as pigswill with a history of criminal activity and drugs. Instead of matyrs they'd look like horrible smelly Herbert's about to get raped to death in prison.
Apparently one of these 'soldiers' stabbed a girl 15 times. Ooh big man, your god must be so proud - now bend over and pick up the soap for eternity. |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Don't kill them, put them on trial and throw them in the showers with some of the most dangerous prisoners in the country. |
Egarran
06.04.17 | Despite everything, it's a relief that terrorists seem so extremely stupid. |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Heaven forbid they were smart |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | The film Four Lions is absolutely spot on. |
Egarran
06.04.17 | I like to think that if I were a terrorist I could kill a lot more people. For example I would wear an actual explosive vest, not a fake, wtf. And use a gun instead of a knife.
What is this, family-friendly terrorism? |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Too much risk of it going wrong.
The old vehicle and stab routine is fast, brutal, effective,hard to detect and easy to implement. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | If these lads were on any sort of watch list then it's game on, I imagine some new legislation and tactics will be employed. |
Egarran
06.04.17 | "effective"
This must mean different things.
I know you're a scaremonger and the sky is falling, but at least admit this was very ineffective. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | Nuttall got boo'd for saying the words 'Islamic Extremism' in the debate the other day on the lovely liberal BBC debate....Theresa May is going for it, gloves are off, used the same phrase. No mincing about now. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | People are dead for fuck sake, 50 are in hospital. People are scared. Political Campaigning has been postponed, the divisiveness grows, the attacks continue, the fear mounts.
|
Egarran
06.04.17 | *Mohammed uses Fake Bomb Vest. It is super ineffective.* |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | Damn, she finally looked like she meant what she was talking about for once rather than a robot. That was quite a speech from her. It's open warfare on the country's streets - there could have been 5 more plots in the last couple of weeks...this is as grave shit as you get. The only time she's impressed me and looked like a leader so far. Corbyn just looked like he was talking about getting rid of the weeds in his allotment as always when he was interviewed. A 'cool head' no doubt. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Seeing someone ranting about allah, slitting someone's throat while wearing a fake bomb vest brings the lols cos it's obviously a fake. |
Egarran
06.04.17 | Your poor head is in a hole.
I'm sorry to go all annoying adult on you, but I grew up with a very real threat of nuclear holocaust. I suppose it desensitized me to these things. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | I certainly wasn't around for the Cuban missile crisis but I grew up with a raised nuclear threat and the IRA bombings but this is worse at the min. People are dying on a weekly basis in the very streets I walk.The Barrowboy and Banker pub where this unfolded outside. I was there two weeks ago. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | 'I grew up with a very real threat of nuclear holocaust'
We've still got that AND we've got Islamic Terrorism AND we've got global warming. Whoop. Don't worry you're allowed to die with the rest of us however old you are mate. |
Egarran
06.04.17 | The Cold War was a bit more scary than the current situation. |
Winesburgohio
06.04.17 | http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/001/215/561/7a8.jpg |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Terrorism the new normal. 'Don't worry about it, things used to be scarier'
Fuck me. |
cosmopazz
06.04.17 | ugh zak why haven't u died in any of these attacks |
cosmopazz
06.04.17 | oh that might have been too cruel |
cosmopazz
06.04.17 | this is exactly why my life sucks |
cosmopazz
06.04.17 | i shouldn't have touched u zak. won't be surprised if i get hurt instead, i guess i deserved it. |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | "We've still got that AND we've got Islamic Terrorism AND we've got global warming. Whoop. Don't worry you're allowed to die with the rest of us however old you are mate"
What a time to be alive, everything is fucked and it's only going to get worse. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Don't worry about it |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | 99.9% sure zak is immortal sorry mate |
Egarran
06.04.17 | Zak would definitely wear a proper suicide belt. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Yeah that Teresa May speech does deserve some credit. Finally naming the issue and looking to deal with the problem all said while wearing the bog chain she's used to flush the country down the shitter. Good girl. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | 'The Cold War was a bit more scary than the current situation.'
Nah, only slightly, just ask the Doomsday Clock :D
The Russians are also developing this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/25/russia-unveils-satan-2-missile-powerful-enough-to-wipe-out-uk-fr/
Make the warheads from the 'original cold war' look like water pistols.
It doesn't feel scarier now because there hasn't been a major cull in a long time and there's a degree of complacency/detachment. In a way that makes the current situation scarier as the western world could sleep walk into something. Not enough true fear factor. |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | The detachment we seem to have to the whole thing is what makes it scary. Maybe we are sleepwalking into something, maybe we're not taking it seriously enough. Fact of the matter is we're sort of helpless to do anything right now. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Theresa May called 'islamist extremism' a 'perversion of Islam'
Close but no cigar. It is the very core of Islam. Muslims pose no danger whatsoever as long as they do not get near that core of Islam. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwxyeFm6UVw |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | he's not wrong ^ |
Egarran
06.04.17 | "ask the Doomsday Clock"
Good lord, I had repressed the doomsday clock. Apparently it's now 2:30 minutes to midnight. Terrorism is not one of the reasons, but strident nationalism is.
So we should prioritize our fears better. No amount of muslim terrorism has been even close to doom, and that is my point. |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Right now climate change is scaring me more than terrorism, it's only in the last 2 years or so it's really sunk in just how bad things are getting, and how they'e only going to get worse as Trump backs out of the Paris agreement and the ice caps continue to melt. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Credit to the boys in blue, the paramedics and members of the public. Nobody fucked about. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Don't you think British police should get (small) firearms, zak? |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Never, ever, ever |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Well, maybe, just maybe, terrorists could've been stopped sooner. I get that it's sort of a British mentality so the government and the police can't get too powerful, but still |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | The thing is there are armed police who respond where necessary and they don't mess around. Unfortunately due to bureaucracy and a society that insists on sticking its nose in they all get gated for months if they fire a shot while an independent review takes place. Fucking ridiculous. The average bobby on the beat has their 'tools of the trade' and they've served them well since the 1800s.
I won't hear a bad word said about the emergency services, of course there are some wankers in there but for the most part they deal day in day out with the worst of the worst and just get on with it while constantly getting shit. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | At least the difficulty of acquiring firearms in the U.K. is making these people resort to blades. Three men with automatic weapons given 8 minutes? Over 100 dead surely |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | If regular bobbies get confronted with armed criminals, what do they even do?
Look, I'm not seeking to ridicule it, it seems to me that the British police force are well-disciplined, but then I think of the poor guy who got killed on the Westminster Bridge while he could not defend himself... For me- and probably a lot of other people- this seems odd. Our police force- although they are generally badly trained- carry arms and I've considered that normal for as long as I can remember. Now, they are even allowed to take them home with them. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "At least the difficulty of acquiring firearms in the U.K. is making these people resort to blades. Three men with automatic weapons given 8 minutes? Over 100 dead surely
"
Here in Belgium, it's also super difficult to get fire arms. Only law enforcement and people with lots of identity and mental stability check-ups can carry them. Yet, terrorists often get AK-47's in through their networks. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | A call comes in to police of an armed robbery or something like that and there is intelligence to say a gun has been seen then it's a case of armed officers in.
Bobby on the beat gets confronted with a fella with a shooter and it's either withdraw, call in the armed lot or if there isn't the time c.s spray or the good old fashioned Glaswegian kiss.
Truth be told I know a couple of coppers. I know someone who disarmed a fella with a machine gun for fuck sake. Just knocked him out. Mental. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | The thing I'm finding tough in this debate is how people are still clinging to defining themselves by political ideals...when in the past you were just drafted and had to fight for your country whatever your position on the scale. The enemy has been sighted, moaning about whether to pursue liberal or socialist agenda feels a little..impotent and indulgent. Probably a generational thing.
|
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "Truth be told I know a couple of coppers. I know someone who disarmed a fella with a machine gun for fuck sake. Just knocked him out. Mental.
"
That's impressive to say the least |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "The enemy has been sighted, moaning about whether to pursue liberal or socialist agenda feels a little..impotent and indulgent. Probably a generational thing."
I'd say it's characteristic of a bewildered, unconfident nation, not happy with where they are. Just my take |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | ISIS is about as indiscrimate a violent regime as you can get - this is no time for 'I don't like what Blair did, he's directly to blame, not in my name'. In the past you could have whistled that tune taking a bullet as you stormed over the trenches. This war is 100% in any westerners name. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Your damn right doof. That's not to say they weren't as ignorant as fuck back in the past though. For King and Country and all that.
Have you seen that tweet going around of the lady sat on a pile of rubble which is the bombed remanants of her house in WWII drinking a cuppa? With some tag line of how resilient we are. We were resilient but it's been diluted by entitlement, if that sort of woman were around now she'd be tearing down mosques brick by brick with her bare hands. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | By westerners I of course include muslims who've decided they prefer to live in a western society rather than a fundamentalist country like Saudi Arabia |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Fun fact, a civilian got hit when an officer fired an 'unprecedented' 50 bullets. We don't need guns thank you. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | I think part of the deal with blades is also a throwback to the good old days, slaying crusaders, and these lads appear to take most pleasure killing young women (eye witness saying one terrorist stabbed a young woman 10 to 15 times. You don't need to stab a woman 10-15 times unless you're enjoying it?) They're definitely enjoying the blood lust and a certain sick kick.
If they're 'soldiers' they're definitely in the old school 'barbarian' mould |
Egarran
06.04.17 | Well, it's a theory. It does seem strange that they are not able to procure a gun for their suicide mission. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | They're off their face as well. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | Zak - yeah, I've seen that poster. Tearing down mosques? Hopefully it won't come down to that. No ones saying tear down the synagogues, no ones even saying tear down the Scientology institutes. It shouldn't have to be this extreme... |
Egarran
06.04.17 | I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't know their bomb vests were fakes. |
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd
06.04.17 | "no ones even saying tear down the Scientology institutes."
Not exactly notorious for their terrorist attacks are they? |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | The problem needs to be rooted out by the Muslim population. Eject the preachers, rat out the fundamentalists and say hold on what's going on here??? You are not welcome.
They have the power to do this and turn things on there head the problem is I don't think it'll happen. |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Some people did think the bomb vests were real |
Egarran
06.04.17 | They are probably not aware that fake guns is a thing.
But seriously, with May wanting to use this to "regulate the internet", I'm ready to go full tinfoil.
I have noticed there is an available niche for wild conspiracy theories on this site. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Regulate the internet. Fuck it. The dark web, the peado rings and dissemination of child sex abuse pics, terrorism cells. Regulate the lot just don't take my sput away :D |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Ugh I hate the whole idea of a snoopers charter but it'll happen. "If you've got nothing to hide then it isn't a problem" yeah but that's not the point |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Nice one Saville |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "The problem needs to be rooted out by the Muslim population."
This is not going to happen. The few reformers are silenced and/or killed. We need to stop thinking that a drastic reformation can/ will happen. It won't happen soon enough. Our foremost duty is to preserve what remains of western society and make it blossom again for our children and their children. That they, at least, enjoy the same rights we do and possibly even more.
Our societies made big judgmental errors in the past, but we need to get accustomed to the idea that in order to rectify these errors, we need to accept some hard truths first. Not in the least, that the process is going to get ugly. But not nearly as ugly as it will be if we do nothing. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Agreed. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | My introduction to the muslim religion came quite late as I was always a country boy growing up. I changed schools about 10 times but I always seemed to have a couple of asian friends. Not to overdo the stereotypes but they tended to be very studious, gentle...a little nerdy. Did I ever ask 'what religion are you?' or 'where did your parents come from?'. Of course not, it wan't an issue, it was up to them if they wanted to tell me more about their life.
Then I went to study in London and this is where things changed. My halls of residence I worked out straight away 70% of the people there were asian. Didn't bother me and sure enough about 70% of my friends in my year there were asian. Now I was very naieve and ignorant that there was any massive distinction between the varying religions and how they'd react to others.
It was a rude awakening. There were a lot of asian on asian fist fights - usually a muslim vs another religion. My best mate was from Ireland and the least traditionally asian person you could imagine (6ft 6, dressed like a skater, mainly listened to rock music). He hated the atmosphere and bristled when he'd inevitably be asked the dreaded questions (religion, where are you really from). He had a traditionally muslim name so he was paranoid about the association even then but its only after time I realised why.
My friends were Sikhs and Hindus but sometimes we'd buy drugs from muslim lads. One time I went into a room with two lads with their heads covered smoking pot on the bed. I sat down on the other side of the room, the only white man in the room. He immediately started coolly talking about how he hates all white people, how he wished they were all killed, how they were liars and deserved death. I just shut my mouth, I was a peaceful stoner, wasn't expecting anything like that. When we left the room my mate asked if I was ok and I just said 'whatever, didn't bother me' but over time I learnt more of these resentments.
Obviously then the whole radical Islam thing kicked off long after I'd left those Halls but I definitely got a taste of the indiscriminate simmering hate that certain young men feel for large communities of people. |
Clegane
06.04.17 | bakker, what's your stormfront username? |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | We also had two saudi lads in one of my classes but all they did was look at internet porn and keep to themselves - internet porn believe it or not was something that had only arrived a year or so earlier. I was 19 and had never even looked at porn beyond a few old jazz mags. Being at a university with a lot of asian lads this changed - a friend of mine who became a highly religious sikh after graduating used to boast he had over 3000 pornographic images on a hard disk that he carried around most places. Bless him. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | Doof the nicest bloke of all time smoking pot with a potential jihadi. London in a nutshell.
That lads house I used to go to had a picture of Mecca in the living room and I remember thinking "what the fucking hell is that??!!!??" and then watching Monster Squad or some such 80s classic. |
Corney
06.04.17 | Every Islamic terrorist thread on this site is chalk full of apologists, not all statements, and false equivalences. Is anyone else desensitized to these attacks. I mean I can imagine the desensitization to these attacks in the Islamic world where they occur daily. Overall, this is a systemic (buzz word) problem within Islam and I feel the solution to this problem will exceed my lifetime. |
DoofusWainwright
06.04.17 | 'Is anyone else desensitized to these attacks.'
No, I'm getting angrier, I'm getting more vigilant when I'm in London (same thing as after the tube/bus bombings as I wasn't too far from all that at the time and living in central London), I'm starting to watch with interest how the varying parties and politicians feel they'll deal with this. |
Egarran
06.04.17 | Stop hating, Corney. This site has a fair balance of apologists and islamophobes. |
Corney
06.04.17 | I guess by desensitized I meant that they don't have the initial impact or shock factor as they used to. I still get angered by them greatly and get more angered by the moronic responses and empty platitudes that follow them. I live in the states and am only somewhat educated on the U.K. election. I think Labour will lose due to their stance on this issue. |
Egarran
06.04.17 | Anger only preaches to the crowd. It drives everybody else away.
And all us straight, preferably white males must stand together despite our differing levels of tolerance. |
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd
06.04.17 | I'm a strong, independent black woman (who don't need no man). |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "Every Islamic terrorist thread on this site is chalk full of apologists, not all statements, and false equivalences. Is anyone else desensitized to these attacks. I mean I can imagine the desensitization to these attacks in the Islamic world where they occur daily. Overall, this is a systemic (buzz word) problem within Islam and I feel the solution to this problem will exceed my lifetime."
If the solution exceeds your lifetime, then the 'solution' will be a fully islamized society... *cough look at birthrates *cough |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Unless you're like 80 right now |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | "Is anyone else desensitized to these attacks."
I'm angry- very angry. At either non-westernized muslims and islam apologists.
I still manage to draw distinctions however. I can tell a person is nice from one or two looks in the eyes.
I hope I don't lose that capability. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | The apologists and virtue signalling arseholes get my goat they really do, stick your 'islamaphobe' up your arse but it's nothing to the outright contempt I have for these deranged fuckers doing nonsensical slaughter in the name of 'Allah' and all the other total horseshit that comes with Islam.
|
Egarran
06.04.17 | I just think getting mad at anonymous people on a music site is silly.
I can only conclude that your culture is inferior and should be removed.
But the mods are probably too pc for that. |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | I mean what the fucking hell is this!!!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2As_H5nRH5c |
hal1ax
06.04.17 | haha CNN is the fucking absolute worst. i am not even surprised by that shit anymore |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | CNN are fucking shite agreed, I just stick to the BBC- obnoxious attempts to be PC and all |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | I was just watching a question & answer round with the greens on BBC...
These people are INSANE. I wanted to smash my head in just watching so many deluded people in one room almost asking to be subjugated.
And the way their lips tremble when they ask reassurement to the green MP that terrorism is a 'perversion of Islam'. Like a room full of toddlers asking mom & dad that it was all just a bad dream...
Whatever hopes I had of people being combattive,....the greens flushed away |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | I agree with them on the environment and that's about it, I don't think they understand how the world works. They think a 4 day working week is a good idea. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Environment yes. I'd let them play with whatever themes are focused on environment and keep them the hell away from everything else. Can you imagine a green as defence minister? |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | They'd probably just shoot themselves out of panic |
zakalwe
06.04.17 | I'm sick of this fucking mainstream media nonsense. Bunch of soulless Saudi funded bunch of cunts. Stop fucking lying you disrespectful pieces of filth. You are terrorists of the mind. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | Thank God we've got social media now. Mainstream media's power is steadily fading |
Tunaboy45
06.04.17 | Social media helps cut through the bullshit but echo chambers are a huge problem. People refuse to debate or accept anyone opposing their opinion. |
bakkermaarten007
06.04.17 | ^^also true |
DoofusWainwright
06.05.17 | If the greens were in the position of the Lib Dems to make the next step they'd need to water down their policies. They'll remain a useful protest vote, and there should be a couple of green MPs to argue for the environment in Westminster, that's it. You can't take them any more seriously. |
Egarran
06.05.17 | That's amusing, bakker. You recognize the dangers of echo chambers, yet do everything to create one by being obnoxious and hateful towards people you disagree with.
The environment you create for this discussion is set up to drive moderate people away. It's that inferior culture of powerless anger again. |
zakalwe
06.05.17 | I'm absolutely incensed by that CNN mock up. Fucking outrageous!!!!!!
The world is fucked, there's no hope. |
DoofusWainwright
06.05.17 | The greens screwed up Brighton & Hove when they were elected there - even the people who voted them in realized they were totally inept and got rid |
zakalwe
06.05.17 | I didn't realise doof, I thought they were still green? How'd they fuck it up? |
DoofusWainwright
06.05.17 | Buddy of mine's sister lives down there and she said they were a nightmare, everything became so expensive and some ridiculous fines dreamt up. Stuff like this - 'Such is their incompetence that the Greens often hurt the very causes they push. While I was staggered to find that I might face a £50,000 fine if I put something plastic in the paper-only recycling bin outside my house, I was amused to discover that most people just ignore the warnings and dump away — with the result that Green Brighton now ranks 302nd out of 326 councils for its recycling record.' Muppets. |
DoofusWainwright
06.05.17 | 'Last year, the Greens failed to prevent a strike among bin men, with the result that Brighton underwent its very own winter of discontent. Gulls feasted amid the piled-high rubbish. Inevitably, some of the Greens sympathised with the oppressed refuse collectors and joined them on the picket line. There’s an intra-party split every 30 seconds among the eco-comrades.' lol, some of the party split to join people on the picket lines, classic. Total chaos :D |
zakalwe
06.05.17 | lol. Madness. |
bakkermaarten007
06.05.17 | "I'm absolutely incensed by that CNN mock up."
Once you realize the nature of (most) MSM, it becomes obvious in what subtle ways they manipulate us to stay 'gutmenschen' day by day, but that CNN mock-up is another level. Their overconfidence makes them uncareful |
hal1ax
06.05.17 | i think more and more people are beginning to see through the MSM's illusory, ulterior motive bullshit though. hopefully more videos like that one continue to leak |