Tunaboy45: Wintersun Crowdfunding

Tunaboy45 03.20.17	Discuss I guess because I love hot button issues.
tempest-- 03.20.17	Why tf are you against crowdfunding lol
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nuyk3Scka6w This about sums it up. Lazy, desperate and unnecessary, especially in this case when they can get an advance from NB and do it themselves. Why are you for crowdfunding?
EphemeralEternity 03.20.17	I don't care I'm not contributing I'm just gonna hope that the output is half as good as their debut
tempest-- 03.20.17	fucking hate that guy but I watched the vid to see if he had a point and nope. He's just complaining because he's morally superior than "asking for free money" I have looked up downsides to crowdfunding before and the only legitimate point that was brought up was that the websites take a cut for themselves... but that makes complete sense to me. If a band or organisation doesn't want to use gofundme or kickstarter, they aren't forced to and their compromise if they do is a cut of their take.
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	I just don't think it's right to ask for money like this when it's for your own personal gain. It's cool that they're giving a good value package but this just seems really cynical to me.
EphemeralEternity 03.20.17	Studio saunas aren't cheap bih
tempest-- 03.20.17	you don't think it's right for Wintersun to do this.. guess what? you don't have to give them any money. you're not losing anything by them (or anyone) setting up a crowdfunding campaign. no one's forcing you to pay for something. so where the fuck do you get off saying they should or should not be doing it.
Pon 03.20.17	"when it's for your own personal gain" do you have an issue with artists profiting off their art or something?
SCREAM! 03.20.17	"you don't think it's right for Wintersun to do this.. guess what? you don't have to give them any money. you're not losing anything by them (or anyone) setting up a crowdfunding campaign. no one's forcing you to pay for something. so where the fuck do you get off saying they should or should not be doing it." FOr me it's the dishonesty behind it that gets me. Jari making an appeal that he NEEDS this for his music which is BS but a bunch of fans just accept it without question and donate to get these albums he's holding hostage from them due to a supposed "lack of resources"
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	"do you have an issue with artists profiting off their art or something?" of course not, it's just how disingenuous they're being about it which gets me
tempest-- 03.20.17	now I barely know anything about Wintersun, but from what I've read, I agree with you Simon. Even if I were a fan of the band, I wouldn't give them any money for this either. But I'm defending their decision to set up a crowdfunding campaign.
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	They can do it if they want, that's fine and they have every right to. It's just in this case it seems dishonest and unnecessary (and most of the time that seems to be the case, hence why I'm usually against crowdfunding). Jari seems to be spouting complete BS and as Simon said he's basically holding the albums hostage until they make €700,000.
Pon 03.20.17	I was being a bit flippant don't read too much into my smartassery lol Couple points worth making tho: Time II was ~composed and written~ by 2007 but was never claimed to be a finished product at any point The advance from NB you mentioned was spent on making The Forest Seasons, which is just a stepping stone towards their end goal I personally would stop before calling them "disingenuous". Petulant? Demanding? Self-entitled? Sure, but they've been pretty open about what they believe is required to fulfil their ambitions. They're lofty, but eh. Whether you agree with their ambitions warranting the kind of support they're asking for, you can say via your own decision to buy their package or not. Like Lloyd said, no one is being forced into anything. Should Jari fail, it'll send a message to him and his band that his music isn't above what his label or fans deem it to be. If he succeeds? Well, his fans will probably get some bombastic-ass power metal albums to listen to and they'll love them.
zaruyache 03.20.17	"especially in this case when they can get an advance from NB and do it themselves." which comes out of their paycheck from NB. Crowdfunding basically takes out the middleman and allows fans to directly pay a band for services, and uses that advanced money to create the service in the first place. It's actually better for bands because it makes them less dependent on labels for funding and allows them more freedom to do what they want.
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	@Jac That stuff about their "true vision" just seems really vague to me which hints that they may not be sure themselves what they're going to do with the money. Then again that could just be me. Either way I'm looking forward to any music they release in the future.
tempest-- 03.20.17	Exactly, very well said Jac. That is why you're a promoted writer and I won't ever be haha. And the kicker is, if the campaign succeeds, ALL this happens, no skin off the backs of people who don't support it, but they still reap the reward of the album(s).
Pon 03.20.17	On the subject of their "true vision", Jari has simply said he doesn't want to compromise on his massive, grandiose projects like Time because he feels the results would be sub-par. Nuclear Blast put forward the idea of splitting Time in two halves and Jari released Time I to fulfil contractual obligations despite being unhappy with the end result. The guy has a very inflated opinion of himself but I don't think there are any ulterior motives here. Dude wants a private studio, he's said that, and is prepared to put together packages filled with shitloads of content in order to get it ¯_(ツ)_/¯
ScuroFantasma 03.20.17	Nothing wrong with crowdfunding in general, this particular campaign has its problems for sure, but I can't see why you'd be against regular crowdfunding.
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	This is an interesting read https://themetalpigeon.com/2014/08/04/an-unpopular-take-on-the-wintersun-vs-nuclear-blast-debate/
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	@Scuro I guess I'm just against asking for handouts but I can totally see why people do them and I wouldn't exactly knock anyone for it.
zaruyache 03.20.17	they're not handouts when they directly promise a service or product which is the whole intention of crowdfunding
SCREAM! 03.20.17	Yeah, I'm definitely not against crowdfunding in general, just not liking this particular example. Most bands use it almost like a pre-order but rather than ordering through the label, you do it with them. Pay $20 = get a cd, no problem. But when it's "hey guys we NEED you to pay 50E for this package otherwise we won't be able to record our music even though we have major label backing and have given you 2 albums and every other band you listen to does it with as much or less, don't question it just pay us (and not our evil label who has been way more patient with us than we ever deserved)." Then yeah, I start having reservations.
Tunaboy45 03.20.17	They're saying there's no other possible way we could hear these 3 earth shattering albums unless we give them €700 which just sounds (for lack of a better word) fishy.
Snowdog808 03.20.17	Wintersun's debut is my second favorite 2004 album, but that certainly doesn't excuse Jari being a douche. At least he's not as douchey as Qwerty100 from RateYourMusic, who even admits it himself.
CygnusX1 03.21.17	I'm not against any crowdfunding in general, but I think this one is a little ridiculous. Jari is just acting like a huge diva. He is an extreme perfectionist and thinks he is better than every other hard working band out there. Also they said there would be affordable options, and yet there's only one 50 euro option. Plus the whole thing feels like he is holding the new album hostage, like others have said. I'm not giving him my money, but the good news is it's all digital so it'll be on the internet soon enough
Tunaboy45 01.07.18	And the album turned out to be a massive disappointment Who'd have thunk it