DrGonzo1937: EU: remain or leave?

Relinquished 06.17.16	remain
DoofusWainwright 06.17.16	Voted remain. So did my other half. So did my folks. Her folks will have voted 'out' though lol
Sinternet 06.17.16	Remain
parksungjoon 06.17.16	should i stay or should i go nooow if i go there will be trouble if i stay it will be double
DinosaurJones 06.17.16	I live in America, so it makes me sad that I have no idea what the fuck is going on across the pond, since we're so wrapped up in our own shit, we don't care what's going on in the rest of the world. Is there a way to condense it, or is it super complicated?
Ovrot 06.17.16	do they want to be independent or stay a part of the United States of Europe basically
Relinquished 06.17.16	they're not ready to be independent apparently
smaugman 06.17.16	please no more political threads on sputnik
mete0ra 06.17.16	Remain
dawidovich 06.17.16	Leave, so that we hopefully can follow. /Sweden
Spacesh1p 06.17.16	I try to stay out of these political threads but please for the love of god, Britain, stay in the EU. Remember that sovereignty in the 21st century does not equate to influence.
JohnnyoftheWell 06.17.16	Remain duh. Absolutely sick of both campaigns, but it's a pretty clear verdict.
DinosaurJones 06.17.16	Ah, gotcha.
Relinquished 06.17.16	"Leave, so that we hopefully can follow. /Sweden" nooooo
Tunaboy45 06.17.16	the spin and scaremongering has been atrocious
Flugmorph 06.17.16	im against brexit
Tunaboy45 06.17.16	Remain seems logical, these nut jobs who only think about immigration and think leaving will give us 100% power are a joke.
DrGonzo1937 06.17.16	This is what disturbs me the most, Tuna; the amount of idiots that think leaving will "fix" everything is simply staggering. I know that the leave campaign also have absolutely no plan if they win, and that is another factor which makes me want to stay in. Boris is off his fucking trolley. As for you guys in the US, I don't know a lot of American politics, but I know if Trump got in, you're fucked. lol
Final Origin 06.17.16	I am definitely for Leave. All the people who think that talking about immigration is xenophobic live in a bubble unfortunately. I should not have to justify myself, but I am a son of an immigrant. I live near towns where EU immigration population is around 30%, and I am telling you now, it has a profound effect on the communities and the public services like never before. I used to be a teacher in one of the local schools in this town, and every two weeks, there was a new EU arrival into the school with no prior learning of English; entering at secondary school level. We are expected to translate all our lessons to meet the needs of these new arrivals, whilst trying to balance the individual needs of local students which is pretty much an impossible task to perfect and satisfy. In one class, I had 10 lithuanians, 6 polish, 2 bulgarians and 2 english students; it was a fucking nightmare and too frequent of an issue in these schools. I could go on and on about the impacts of the EU in may different ways, but I stand for controlled immigration, which is a necessity to handle the pressures on our public services, and also to take back our democracy. I do not want the unelected bureaucrats of the EU commission to gain any further power over the UK, they are sneaky bastards.
zakalwe 06.17.16	I'm leaving
BenThatsMyJamin 06.17.16	Annoyingly I only turn 18 a week after the vote, but if I could I'd vote leave. It's a simple issue of more government vs. less government. I don't want an overbearing bureaucracy that the we have little say in electing and who most certainly don't care about British people being able to govern my life and the laws of the land. Government never does anything right and all we do is complain about it yet given the opportunity to vote over the issue, we vote to hand more faceless officials control over our lives. And given that all EU officials have been doing in the past few months is threatening Britain I believe that we have seen what kind of establishment they run. I don't like the political direction the EU is headed and I would much rather we not be dragged over there with them. A points-based immigration system like the aussies have is also much more sensible and economically intelligent than what we have currently, not to mention immigration does have to slow down at some point, given that at the current rate the population of UK will require us to be building a new house every 4 seconds by 2050 (I can't give a source on that but I'm certain I heard that on a TV debate a few weeks ago). Economically, I do have a few worries but I believe liberty is priceless. On top of this I really don't know whether to trust these 'top economists' (many of them politically affiliated) who have their own agendas and who were so wrong warning us that we 'must' join the euro a few years back. And we will almost certainly have to join the euro if we stay in and given the sorry state it is in along with the eurozone crisis I say no thank you. Not to mention trade tariffs are so much cheaper now than they were when we signed up to the EU originally, which was the whole point. The EU sells more to us than we buy from them and they would be idiotic to cut trading ties. As for the plan should Brexit happen I believe they released what they were going to do the other day, so you should have a read of that if possible. These are my personal opinions and I'm not looking for an argument so I'll just leave these here, just wanted to give you the Brexit stance so that you can make up your own mind.
Krvst 06.17.16	Remain, the amount of benefits far outweigh the problems. There are many issues that need to be addressed however if we do stay.
Final Origin 06.17.16	There is absolutely no way we can negotiate with the EU any further than Cameron has, and he failed miserably. They are moving in a direction which is incredibly uncertain (just look at the treatment of Greece and the state of the eurozone), and the UK will have absolutely no power to move away from it if we remain. Remember when Cameron and Osbourne said we will not pay the £1.7 billion bill last year, then lied through their teeth? They do not have any interest in the UK's needs and issues, we have the same voice as the other 27 country states, the idea that we are 'stronger in' is absolutely crazy. I understand that different areas of the UK have very different issues, but my god, my area has felt the full force of the consequences of the EU that literally every town wants to leave and are displaying it massively. Sorry for my excessive ranting, but as you can see, I am pretty passionate about this xD
Feather 06.17.16	Glad to see another country besides the US having issues. I'm not saying I'm happy you're having issues, I'm just happy we're not alone :-)
vonseux 06.17.16	leave and declare war
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	Voting remain, so many workers rights are protected by EU membership that will be subject to attack. Depending on your industry, a vote to leave is more or less saying that you don't care if you have a job or not. If you want to be able to afford to go see a doctor when you need to, voting to leave is essentially suicide. All the immigration arguments are based on strawman foundations or bigotry. The "points based system" used in Australia which is held as a bastion of how a closed boarder can work has done little to bring down net migration, with their numbers proportionately speaking remaining relatively close to that of the UK with open boarders. It will also do nothing to reduce the number of non-EU migrants. The money we pump in to the EU comes back to us manifold and the idea that this money will be used more effectively by a wealth-protecting conservative government is a joke. The leave campaign preys on small mindedness and selfishness above all else, even if it makes valid points in places. It largely appeals to a jaded older group of people who were not brought up with the notion of global citizenship and instead want to take a country back to a rose tinted time where the British Empire had more of a say as a controlling party rather than working as a partner. A time when our so-called greatness was built upon the backs of child labour, an exploited workforce and subjugating other countries to our will. Do you really want to be governed by an ever more extreme right wing government without the checks, balances and safety net that being a member of the EU brings us?
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	Also, the point about public services: they are feeling the burden, not of over population through migration but through systematic underfunding and having their infrastructures undermined, gutted and sold off. The population-stress argument is a myth. These problems are caused by austerity cuts and ideological attack.
Sinternet 06.17.16	^pretty much exactly this also anyone who says the leave campaign isn't racist should look at farage's new campaign poster which is identical to nazi propaganda
Krvst 06.17.16	@DanielNightLewis legit summed it up
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	We have our own ways of undermining ourselves and making sure shit doesn't get done.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	This whole "Brexit" thing is a prime example. Let's get carried away with a debate that very few people actually understand beyond "dey took urrr jerrrrbs" level of bigotry instead of taking a government to task that has stripped our social infrastructure to replace it with private contracts for their mates. Also a remain vote will help block TTIP, which is a really fucking nefarious piece of legislation that we could really do without.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	The UK is unfortunately a pretty bitter place, we're kind of like the girl in school that was hot and everyone wanted to get with, then she hit 30, got fat and had a kid and is in the slow lane drifting towards her grave but still thinks she can turn it out like she used to.
Final Origin 06.17.16	'The population-stress argument is a myth'. I am sorry, I strongly cannot agree with this statement considering I live in pretty much one of the hotspots of EU immigration in the whole of the UK. It is a absolute ballache to get a GP appointment even though there are loads of practices here and school places are absolutely strained, for goodness sake I had 43 students in one class at one point with half being EU students with no english. It just isn't feasible and is hindering the chances of every single student's chance of progression, including the EU students. No amounts of funding can realistically solve an issue, money is not the answer to everything. There is a lot of tension and unhappiness where I am from as there is a lack of aspiration amongst young people, simply because there just aren't any opportunities for work here, all the entry level jobs are not advertised for the unskilled local workers, they ARE given to EU workers instead. I have a friend who owns a small business locally, and he concedes that he hires EU workers because they are cheaper and demand less, which is fundamentally wrong and unethical to unemployed British people who are actively seeking for any job. Lastly, the argument about the 'points system' with Australia having high levels of net migration is simply because it is THEIR choice to have a high influx. It is a continent for goodness sake with plenty of space, we are a small island which cannot afford to build on green spaces. Yes the current government is crap at controlling the non-EU migration numbers, but at least if we leave, we have control over the EU migration which currently is not negotiable and very unpredictable. All this bollocks about being worried about having a 'right wing' government for the next 4 years is nothing in comparison to having a generation's worth of unelected EU presidents who do not have the UK's interest at heart. At least we can kick out our government properly through democracy, the EU commission...good luck.
beefshoes 06.17.16	If the UK votes yes, I hope that Wales and Scotland commence a new series of their own independence referendums and destroy the UK.
Sinternet 06.17.16	might seem masochistic but so do i, would consider moving to scotland for sure
zakalwe 06.17.16	Finally. Somebody who actually lives this shit gives an opinion. Nice one Origin mate.
DrGonzo1937 06.17.16	Very interesting input there Origins, you've certainly put a lot of things into perspective.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	Following on from "unelected bureaucrats", we have the House of Lords already, which is exactly that. A bunch of people who have inherited the right to influence our policies which is fucking crazy even compared to appointed EU officials who have been appointed by and from a framework of people who have been elected to do so. As I have stated before, the problems we face as a country and the ones that we hold up as problems of beingin the EU are of our own making.
Spacesh1p 06.17.16	Anyone who is pro-exit profoundly misunderstands the relative benefits of being in the EU to being out of it. The cost versus benefits are so plainly in favor of remaining in the EU that it isn't even funny.
zakalwe 06.17.16	You have to take into account that the house of Lords is presiding over matters of UK government policy. The EU has the EUs interest at heart which basically means keeping the cream at the top by any means possible. It's a corrupt dictatorship, don't be fooled. The UK will remain as a result of 'postal votes' attributable to fuck knows who. If by some miracle the vote is to leave there will be another vote and another until the 'right' result. Will leaving weaken the pound and cause a crash in the economy? Possibly but fuck it.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	The EU is not perfect, it's not some utopian union of countries. Far from it, I will grant you that. But by your logic, if the EU has the EUs interests at its core, then surely being within it as a major (and somewhat already differentiated) partner is better than being outside of it with an equally corrupt right wing government playing Monopoly with our economy. A leave vote as a form of protest is stupid, it's sort of like those monks who set themselves on fire, except we survive and we all carry the scars.
zakalwe 06.17.16	It's like I said the EUs interest is keeping the cream at the top rain or shine. Was Greece bailed out? Look at the countries that aren't in, they seem to be managing to get by.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	They all, just as the UK does, have their problems. It's easy to look across and not see anything below the surface as domestic policy issues from other countries don't tend to make the news outside of their own country. For example, I had a couple of French friends come and stay the other week and they had no idea we were having a referendum or what the whole thing was about. That seemed to be totally bonkers at the time but in many ways it makes sense.
Final Origin 06.17.16	It's a fair point Daniel, they are definitely unelected just like the EU commission, but I don't want double the amount of unelected bureaucrats, that just seems like a clusterfuck. Just keep all the decision making within the UK, at least it becomes a lot more manageable than ploughing through all the bollocks bureaucracy of the EU, which is incredibly confusing in itself. I have actually considered both sides as I thought that the EU must have some benefits, which it does have in some cases for Europe in general. But this idea of worker's rights, environmental protection etc being in jeopardy if we leave is literally a load of scaremongering, they will still exist. If the government are being shifty about it, at least we will have the full power to elect another party in. If the EU decide to pass a policy not in the UK's favour, we have to fight against 27 other countries that may favour it...I do not fancy our chances in that. It is not just the 'old people' thinking this way, I am 25 and a lot of people around my age think exactly the same thing, even more strongly than I do. I guess it depends where you live and how your communities have experienced this. It is definitely a tricky question to remain or leave, but honestly, you can only see the impact of what the EU can do when you are living in the reality of their vision.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	I guess it pays to give a little context to my world view: I grew up in central London, first generation born of Irish migrant workers in a very poor area. One thing it was rich in though was culture, ever since I can remember I have been exposed to all different kinds of people from all different kinds of places. I currently live in the South East, in Brighton - which though very much an affluent white area, it is extremely liberal. My wife and I both work for the NHS and what we see first hand are problems of inadequate funding for normal service levels being pinned on too many people coming in when it is more of a matter of governmental/institutional unwillingness to fix the problems (and example of this is doctors being forced to waive their rights under the european working time directive, so my wife regularly ends up working a 70 hour week, sometimes as the only doctor on the ward!!). The idea to me that we can suddenly shut up shop and fix our problems is a precariously balanced illusion, which will come crashing down quite quickly I feel.
Friday13th 06.17.16	Finally, an opportunity for a U.S. sput user to meddle into British politics! ;) I'd side with zak and brexiters. That should be a band name lol
zakalwe 06.17.16	I don't think anyone believes there's a quick fix. The austerity cuts have crippled public services and there's more to come but the reality is the money 'saved' won't be going back into the NHS because the government is absolutely gagging to get rid of it.
Final Origin 06.17.16	Thanks for the insight of where you live Daniel, pretty interesting view of where you come from. I will let you know where I am from as well just to give you a bit more context. I am from a town called Wisbech in Cambridgeshire and I will just post a recent article about the town itself just to paint how worlds apart this place is compared to Brighton: http://time.com/4357815/eu-britain-migrant-referendum-brexit-wisbech/ As I said, every place in the UK will have different experiences with the EU, in my case, it has not been a pleasant one on the community it has happen too quickly without clear planning. The urban cities are fine coping with this vision, the working towns are struggling to breathe. The problems of over-population through uncontrolled migration are a real issue to quiet, under-the-radar towns like Wisbech, and this is why there is a lot support to leave here. I actually respect your opinions on this, but I know for a fact we are never going to agree due what we have experienced in our lives unfortunately.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	I do see where this particular world view comes from (or is it now an island view by now??) and I understand the anxieties but this sounds like a weird standoff of integration compounded by poor infrastructure. I note that you said you worked in a school that was stretched regarding language requirements, well if our government hadn't pilfered and decimated our community cneters, who isn't to say that there couldn't have been English lessons for young people? Which would take the stress off the school and provide better communal integration. I recognise that we will likely never see eye to eye but I think that as a country we should welcome people who contribute positively like so many of those people in the article you have cited and help them to integrate but also reach out and understand a bit more of what they're all about too, which never seems to happen in these situations.
eddie95 06.17.16	I would vote remain just because I'd feel bad knowing I'm voting the same thing as a neonazi
Sinternet 06.17.16	when i was at secondary school we had a few students come in from other countries and they had an intensive English teacher come in and help them with English and within 9 months to a year they were fluent. It was just a case of giving them a bit of help integrating and they were fine, a lot of them were near the top of the class and showed a desire to learn that not may others did.
Sinternet 06.17.16	Essentially the vote is do you like fascism or neoliberalism better. I dislike neoliberalism but anything is better than fascism.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	on a more selfish note: I don't want it to be harder/more expensive for bands I love to come over from the mainland to tour. So many bands avoid the UK as it's expensive as it is!
zakalwe 06.17.16	Because despite ever changing demographics people don't want what they know to change. Which is fair enough. Immigration has saved this country, they work their bollocks out for pittance on jobs and it all goes back into the system. The problem lies in an influx creating almost ghetto like conditions in some areas. Certainly in London where there's families of 8,9,10 people in two bedroom flats. Then there's the piss takers, the benefit claimers who just can't be arsed. A question that has made me think recently is this. How many people do you know who are out of work?
Sinternet 06.17.16	very interesting point, one of my favourite bands said something very similar https://www.facebook.com/johnnyforeigner/posts/10154222403108680 also nice to see someone from the Brighton area on Sput
Sinternet 06.17.16	i see very few benefit-claiming immigrants compared to the trashy white families á la Benefits Street, those are the people who need to be targeted, not the hard-working immigrants that contribute more to our economy than they take the problem with the right is that one minute it's using the 'immigrants are stealing our benefits' rhetoric and the next it uses the 'immigrants are stealing our jobs' rhetoric, neither of which is true
p4p 06.17.16	as someone who studied international relations, UK should stay. the consequences for leaving the EU will bring more harm than good for the stability of UK economic and foreign policy. But by reading some of the posts here, people concerned more about the security regarding the immigration. Its basically social dilemma.
zakalwe 06.17.16	Brighton. Lot of people into their arts down there.
Final Origin 06.17.16	Yes more could have been done to integrate the people who have moved to the town, but the rate of the influx is unsustainable, there is simply too much for one small town to cope with. Regarding the young people I worked with in the school, in a perfect world they would be getting constant and consistent English lessons to help integrate. But unfortunately, there are only so many hours in a school day and you simply cannot fit it all in, along with the OFSTED pressures too. There simply aren't enough resources to deal with this. On top of the ridiculous pressures of teacher marking etc after school hours, there simply isn't capacity to cater every single need. Immigration is a benefit no doubt, but please, lets not be silly in assuming that open borders is the way forward. It must be controlled, this country is a trillion pounds in debt, how are we supposed to fund all this integration if we have no money to spare by sending net £10bn a year to Europe? Integration will be a hell of a lot smoother if we controlled the numbers when we leave, and reserve SOME money to help integration resources. I like to think I am talking sense here and sensibly too, not just hungry on the fact that we need to be part of some political union to qualify as a global and welcoming country.
Final Origin 06.17.16	Anyways, I am off for now as I am getting pretty sleepy. Nice to see that people have sensible opinions on this and not calling each other names like I see on twitter and stuff, it can be a pretty poisonous issue unfortunately.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	I would argue that it's not immigration that has plunged us in to debt and as such we should look at the sources of our debt and restructure/repair them before penalising others. My suggestion of bringing people up to speed within English would have sat as an extra-curricular endeavour, taking place at community centres, libraries and other, now grossly under funded, public resources. The stress is taken off the schools and the community supports itself. Also, I'm sure you're aware that the £10bn is actually pretty good value for money when you look at the breakdown. I think we've fucked it for ourselves and are looking to others to pass the blame. As a collective, "the outsider" is perfect for this.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	Indeed, it has been nice to actively discuss things. I hope we've at least given each other something to think about in some small way.
LepreCon 06.17.16	Was born in the UK and still hold citizenship and I voted remain.
BenThatsMyJamin 06.17.16	"Essentially the vote is do you like fascism or neoliberalism better." The term 'fascism' is bandied about so ridiculously by left-wingers and is just a buzzword to demonise any right-wing figure. It's especially ridiculous when you consider that most authoritarian governments are socialist. If you seriously think Farage or any Brexiter apart from Nick Griffin is a fascist you're a moron
LepreCon 06.17.16	Farage isn't a fascist, just a bellend
Sinternet 06.17.16	'It's especially ridiculous when you consider that most authoritarian governments are socialist.' citation needed
Sinternet 06.17.16	farage is absolutely racist, did you not just see his new leave poster which is virtually a direct replica of nazi propaganda? he also said that you should be afraid if romanians were your neighbours, along with more history of racist remarks
LepreCon 06.17.16	Racist =/= fascist. I hate the fucker and wish he'd fuck off for himself but I won't use inaccurate labels.
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	authoritarian, right wing and champions innately oppressive structures and legislature. Certainly sounds fascist-like to me.
LepreCon 06.17.16	Post-fascist tendencies, at a stretch
DanielNightLewis 06.17.16	Well, whatever he is, he's definitely a cunt.
BenThatsMyJamin 06.17.16	"citation needed" A history book. Nearly all the worst fascists of the past 100 years have been left-wing. Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim-Jong Il/Un, Chairman Mao, Fidel Castro, you could even make the case for Hitler being left-wing. The death toll of their reigns combined cannot be compared to any right-wing government.
Sinternet 06.17.16	'you could even make the case for Hitler being a socialist' no you couldn't and most of the ones you listed were communist not socialist, Castro is about the closest you got
ZombieParty 06.17.16	Leave I love Farage
BenThatsMyJamin 06.17.16	I'm not out and out saying that he was, but you could, and many people have before. People only ever consider his nationalism when categorising him. Sorry, the point was that they are far-left, which is why using fascism as an insult of the right-wing is ridiculous. Mussolini was an angel compared to the guys I listed, even without Hitler
worthlessscab 06.17.16	communism is a type of socialism
Sinternet 06.17.16	whilst communism hold some beliefs similar to socialism, it's a completely different ideology. Communism emphasises authoritarianism and complete control whilst socialism does not, it emphasise control of public services. The two can barely be compared - communism has much more in common with fascism than it does socialism. Also you are deluded if you think Castro was in any way worse than Mussolini.
Sinternet 06.17.16	Many of the people you listed don't even hold many left-wing values at all
worthlessscab 06.17.16	They do socialist ones. By saying socialism you are including communism too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_socialism Read on and be more specific
worthlessscab 06.17.16	Also, not all forms of communism are authoritarian. The utopian ones that everyone is wanking about are completely stateless
MyNameIsPencil 06.18.16	free Ireland
trve 06.18.16	anyone voting remain is a delusional retard
bakkermaarten007 06.18.16	Final Origin is owning this.Gj, I like you
Relinquished 06.18.16	arcade got it though
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.18.16	"Voted remain. So did my other half." i didnt realize you got two votes if you split yourself in two like a gross cellular human monstrosity
Relinquished 06.18.16	it happens when you marry
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.18.16	here i was thinking it was all paper work and "i do's" i had no idea marriage got so biological
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.18.16	ASIDE FROM ALL THE FUCKING YOU DO FOR THE FIRST 6 MONTHS BEFORE YOUR MARRIAGE FALLS APART AND YOU CANT STAND TO LOOK AT EACH OTHER AMIRITE
Relinquished 06.18.16	yea for the losers who don't know how to human together properly
anat 06.18.16	I don't fucking know what to vote and I hate it. I almost don't want to bother but I know that people elsewhere have died for the right to. But I feel uneducated and, ultimately, unaffected by the eventual result.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.18.16	"don't know how to human together" lol
Relinquished 06.18.16	"But I feel uneducated and, ultimately, unaffected by the eventual result." take these feelings and work on them for when the next opportunity of change calls
BenThatsMyJamin 06.18.16	Anatelier put a 'leave' vote in for someone who is passionate about this but is too young to vote :-) please?
someguest 06.18.16	Nationalism is bullshit but so is a singular economy and regional alliance. It's a lose-lose.
Shuyin 06.18.16	Wake up and vote leave
Relinquished 06.18.16	the global economy will be shaken up very soon and this thing potentially happening is kinda getting me apprehensive
someguest 06.18.16	Buy your European and Asian records now, Relinquished. : )
Relinquished 06.18.16	I already have a closet full of international vinyl lol
DrGonzo1937 06.19.16	"ideally leave, practically and actually remain" I'm hearing that it won't matter, we'll remain, but 90% of the people I've talked to have said they're voting to leave. Plus, the press are making it sound like "leave" is the consensus at the minute, so we'll have to see I guess.
zakalwe 06.19.16	Everywhere I'm going it's leave, leave leave with the odd remain thrown in.
DrGonzo1937 06.19.16	You're from up North as well, aren't you zak? Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how it all pans out.
bakkermaarten007 06.19.16	"I don't fucking know what to vote and I hate it. I almost don't want to bother but I know that people elsewhere have died for the right to. But I feel uneducated and, ultimately, unaffected by the eventual result." I have never studied longer than 3 days for an exam, (except statistics, which was two weeks). Read everything you can find on the issue for these remaining days and you'll cast an informed vote. It's not that hard
bakkermaarten007 06.19.16	"Nationalism is bullshit but so is a singular economy and regional alliance. It's a lose-lose." Many of the problems we face today come directly from thinking that nationalism is bullshit. (open borders, EU undemocratic leadership, the rise of extreme parties throughout Europe,...)
bakkermaarten007 06.19.16	If I were British, I'd vote leave.Let's be honest here, the only real reason why Great-Britain joined the EU was not out of love for some 'one Europe'-idea, but because she had no empire left after WWII and needed to cooperate to exert influence.
Artuma 06.19.16	aren't most of the rising extreme parties exactly nationalist..?
zakalwe 06.19.16	"You're from up North as well, aren't you zak?" Am I fuck mate. Basildon, Essex.
bakkermaarten007 06.19.16	"aren't most of the rising extreme parties exactly nationalist..? " Yes. My point was: if you reject nationalism completely, you'll feed the extreme nationalist parties. Nationalism is about identity, about belonging on a bigger scale as a group. Take that away and eventually people will revolt. It is against human nature to disregard group thinking.
Artuma 06.19.16	well yeah that's true and it's kinda sad. people should open their eyes about extreme nationalism as we've seen what can happen when it gets the power
bakkermaarten007 06.19.16	"people should open their eyes about extreme nationalism as we've seen what can happen when it gets the power" Idk what would happen (the Third Reich was only one example). But I do understand why people would vote for them (or for Trump). If you have beginning mold on your walls, it takes some maintenance every now and then to keep your walls in pristine condition. But if you let the mold infest your walls from within, you'll need to break open the walls.
BenThatsMyJamin 06.19.16	Tbh if we remain I could see a similar scenario to the Trump saga popping up in England in a few years. People want to remain to not give power to the nationalists but in reality it will fuel their fire even more
Pajolero 06.19.16	I thought the UK was never actually in the Union. Interesting.
CaliggyJack 06.20.16	As a Catholic, Revelations clearly describes a universal government in power during the End Times, so I have never supported the EU and personally support Britain leaving. On the other hand, as an American, my opinion doesn't matter, so there's that.
DinosaurJones 06.20.16	I have read through this, and I can't really speak to the issues, not being involved. But I have to make the following observation: Europeans/Brits talking politics: sensible, civil discussion Americans talking politics: LOL FAGGOT IDIOT, KILL URSELF, LOG OFF, U DON'T KNOW SHIT, GO EDUCATE URSELF
Relinquished 06.20.16	horrid observation
Keyblade 06.20.16	it's funny cuz it's mostly europeans in the american discussions
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	Voting leave is absurd. How people can side with Michael "we're tired of the experts" Gove, a washed-up alcoholic in Farage and Boris Johnson will never make sense to me. For a people so fond of their empire days, one would think that you Brits wouldn't want accelerate your slide into global irrelevancy.
claygurnz 06.20.16	I'm voting remain, begrudgingly
Cryptkeeper 06.20.16	Just remain, you know the EU is gonna fuck you over economically because 'we' don't want to shape a precedent. They'll redirect any international shipping to Antwerp/Rotterdam.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Just remain, you know the EU is gonna fuck you over economically because 'we' don't want to shape a precedent. " Yup. Why stay under this threat though? It's like: "if you leave me, you're dead". What a union
RadicalEd 06.20.16	I do understand the distrust towards the EU and the giant bureaucracy as well as the frustration with the way the EU-System is setup, but I don't think that the UK would benefit in a lot of tangible ways from leaving. Sure they could close their borders 100%, but to get any lucrative trade deals with the other European nations they'd have to dial back on that very quickly. "If I were British, I'd vote leave.Let's be honest here, the only real reason why Great-Britain joined the EU was not out of love for some 'one Europe'-idea, but because she had no empire left after WWII and needed to cooperate to exert influence." How has that changed tho. GB still needs to do just that.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	^^yeah, but it's one thing to cooperate willingly and to cooperate while yielding a significant amount of power to a higher entity. Especially after, you know, being leader of the world (pre-WWII)
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	It's especially the financial control and the border control that's a thorn in the eye For the Britons, not getting into the monetary union makes it easier to leave in any case
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	1. Financial control? Please tell me concrete ways in which you are so economically burdened by the EU. The net positive on the British economy from EU membership is unarguable. 2. Border control? As of 2011, "White British" is still 81% of the United Kingdom population. Not only would you need to remain open to immigration in order to retain any semblance of the economic benefits the EU yields to you, but your population is far from overrun by immigrants. Look, I can understand the base-level appeal of giving the elite a black eye and "taking control back" in today's world, but leaving the EU would provide a guaranteed negative impact immediately after with serious longtail political and economic risk that cannot be predicted. The leave campaign is madness.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Please tell me concrete ways in which you are so economically burdened by the EU. " If you follow the EU, you will see that every coutry needs to abide by certain financial rules (debt cutback, measurements to ensure economic growth, etc.). These evidently affect largely the domestic policies. 2."Border control? As of 2011, "White British" is still 81% of the United Kingdom population. " It doesn't matter what the racial mix is. It matters that no EU-country can safeguard their own borders- and keep dangerous individuals out if needed. One can hop from one EU-country to another. hence, many refugees go to Germany once they are within the EU. Border control is more than immigrants. But yes, immigration is cumbersome for many layers off the population. Given the recent political trends (anti-migration parties). Financial control and border control are no small feats. They are invaluable instruments of an independent nation. "Look, I can understand the base-level appeal of giving the elite a black eye and "taking control back" in today's world, but leaving the EU would provide a guaranteed negative impact immediately after with serious longtail political and economic risk that cannot be predicted." Perhaps. No one can predict the outcome. Much will depend on the attitude of the EU-commissioners.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	Debt cutback, so austerity? You're not Greece. I think you're really misunderstanding how much this is a positive for the UK relative to smaller EU countries rather than a negative. Do you want more deficit spending? Debt financed spending? That's a domestic issue you have full control over. Measurements to ensure economic growth? That doesn't even mean anything concrete and, the way you describe it, is probably a positive thing unless you can explain what you mean. The EU is not the Eurozone, which has far more economic risk that the UK does (and should) stay out of. You guys have one of the best economic deals in the EU as you get access to the free and open market without adopting the notoriously difficult to control Euro. I understand border control is not just immigration/race, but the rhetoric would make an uninformed person think that there's armies of Turks bayed in the shadowy alleyways of Birmingham (name your city) waiting to rape and pillage everyone. Which is at the very least statistically untrue. Fair enough that you may not want to facilitate the free movement of labor, despite the obvious economic benefits, but you should be ready to shoulder the consequences of this. Instead, it's probably better to accept that the world is globally competitive now due to technology, so rather than artificially slow this process, embrace it and adapt (economically speaking). The fact of the matter is that most leave voters are falling prey to barely half true arguments that evoke emotional responses to scary immigrants and faceless bureaucrats when the UK has a net positive economic relationship with the EU, has relatively more control over it (directly and indirectly) than almost any other member state and will undoubtedly have to concede to many of the same rules the leavers hate so much to accrue the same benefits when outside the EU.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	I'm not going to debate it anymore, but I hope the leavers know that their position would lead to large political and economic losses for the supposed benefit of "sovereignty." As I stated in the first few comments, sovereignty in the 21st century does not equate to influence and power. At least know what you're doing instead of trying to vote out the Johnny Foreigners which, like it or not, is the sole aim of many Brexit supporters.
zakalwe 06.20.16	Even though I remain leave and will cast my vote it will make no difference. We are all totally controlled dudes.
SirArthur6 06.20.16	I'm voting Leave. Immigration should be controlled by those who are elected directly by the people who have to live with the consequences of said immigration. The open borders policy is a recipe for disaster/unhappiness. I also have no faith in the EU as a power structure. It takes away even more power from the average person to influence change, and it seems to only want to give more power to itself. The whole point of democracy is that we can hold those in power accountable, and get new people in if those that are in power are failing.
p4p 06.20.16	regionalism is important in the 21th century. The EU, the newly shaped ACC in Southeast Asia and SAARC in South Asia, these geopolitical union/regional integration helps to achieve rapid economic development and stability amongst nations in those regions. even the US got NAFTA and other dozens intra/interregional cooperations. Keep up with the trend fellas.
zakalwe 06.20.16	Democracy? lol.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"I'm not going to debate it anymore, but I hope the leavers know that their position would lead to large political and economic losses for the supposed benefit of "sovereignty."" I've read all your arguments above. You're missing the importance of sovereignty. Most of what the remain-camp has to say is fear-mongering. That's not to say that things could take a turn for the worse. But they don't know, period. They can't know until it happens.
Sinternet 06.20.16	Both campaigns have been fear-mongering just the same. Honestly it's an embarrassment.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	Please enlighten me on your interpretation of sovereignty, then, as this is a separate issue. Also, to say that "most of what the remain-camp has to say is fear-mongering" understates the propensity of both sides to fear monger.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Both campaigns have been fear-mongering just the same. Honestly it's an embarrassment." What I've heard, the remain-camp contributes more to fear-mongering. Didn't Cameron say, the UK would be heading for WWIII in the scenario of leaving?
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Please enlighten me on your interpretation of sovereignty, then, as this is a separate issue." What is so hard to understand that it is more sovereign to be able- as a nation- to define your own financial policy and control your own borders as opposed to remaining within a frame by the EU? And there are a large number of other policies too. But that, I don't know enough about. Here in Belgium, the EU has intervened a couple of times in intergovernmental affairs (Walloon vs Flemish communities). Which is frustrating, especially since the EU doesn't grasp the old struggle.
zakalwe 06.20.16	The only thing I want to know is if we leave the pound will inevitably decrease in value but what will the long term implications be?
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	Farage and co keep banging on about Turkey joining the EU in the next 5 years, which if you know anything about the process of joining the EU, would be virtually impossible. This is equally as fear mongering or worse than anything the remain camp has said. To say the UK would be headed for a WWIII scenario is of course speculative bunk at best, but to say that it would start to unravel the post-WWII political order that has provided peace and stability for nearly a century would be a true statement.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	Hard to say zak. Numerous things could have a large influence. America's new president for example. For the UK, Donald Trump would be- presumably better- as he said a leave would not influence the economic trade agreements. Obama said otherwise, and Hillary idk about her stance
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Farage and co keep banging on about Turkey joining the EU in the next 5 years, which if you know anything about the process of joining the EU, would be virtually impossible. This is equally as fear mongering or worse than anything the remain camp has said." As it is now, Turkey has a large influence over the EU. And Merkel has, in fact, gone into talks with Turkey about EU membership over the refugee issue.Not fear mongering. If you see how far the EU has gone into accomodating to Turkey for their help, it is worrying.;;
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	"What is so hard to understand that it is more sovereign to be able- as a nation- to define your own financial policy and control your own borders as opposed to remaining within a frame by the EU?" Financial policy - provide for me a concrete example where the British are significantly constrained by the EU regarding financial policy. On the contrary, they grow more and are more influential in the global economy by being in the EU. Border control - as I said, I understand that this is harder to swallow. But if you want to participate in the free and open market, movement of labor must accompany movement of capital. If the UK doesn't want to participate in the free and open market, fair enough, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too in this case.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"To say the UK would be headed for a WWIII scenario is of course speculative bunk at best, but to say that it would start to unravel the post-WWII political order that has provided peace and stability for nearly a century would be a true statement." Nearly a century? Not even close. Like I said before, the attitude of the EU would be a decisive factor. From what I've heard until now, the EU won't be able to leave as 'friends'.
Cryptkeeper 06.20.16	'Most of what the remain-camp has to say is fear-mongering. That's not to say that things could take a turn for the worse. But they don't know, period. They can't know until it happens.' Can you try not to be extremely biased for a single day? I know it's hard man but Jesus fucking Christ you're taking it to the next level every single comment. You're throwing away credibility with anyone who doesn't agree with you, make ridiculous statements you can't back up and act like your subjective opinion is absolutely correct.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	"As it is now, Turkey has a large influence over the EU. And Merkel has, in fact, gone into talks with Turkey about EU membership over the refugee issue.Not fear mongering. If you see how far the EU has gone into accomodating to Turkey for their help, it is worrying.;;" Turkey has a large influence over the EU? That's simply incorrect. Perhaps Merkel has an incentive to broker agreements with Erdogan since he can choose to do little to stop illegal immigration into Germany, but no, Turkey does not have even small influence over the EU. Furthermore, if you know anything about the EU, which you should since you are apparently Belgian, you would understand that the accession process is arduous and takes a significant amount of time. Turkey has been ostensibly attempting to make the reforms necessary to join the EU for decades now and is nowhere near complete in this. Nor is the popular will there in the country to make this happen.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Financial policy - provide for me a concrete example where the British are significantly constrained by the EU regarding financial policy. " But this isn't the point. If you do want a constrain: how about the massive loans to Greece? EU tax payers have paid for that. How about the EU- austerity stance? Try to do the other thing while remaining in the EU. Without naming a preference, executing a non- austerity policy is hard in the EU.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	" Turkey has a large influence over the EU? That's simply incorrect. Perhaps Merkel has an incentive to broker agreements with Erdogan since he can choose to do little to stop illegal immigration into Germany, but no, Turkey does not have even small influence over the EU. " Reverse that and you get: Erdogan can choose when or if he unleashes masses of new immigrants to Europe. No influence?
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	"Nearly a century? Not even close. Like I said before, the attitude of the EU would be a decisive factor. From what I've heard until now, the EU won't be able to leave as 'friends'. " League of Nations, for all intents and purposes the progenitor of the EU, was established Jan 1920. The College of Europe was established in the immediate aftermath of WWII in 1945. The European Coal and Steel Community, the actual progenitor of the EU, was formed in 1952. And the Treaty of Rome, which created the European Economic Community (EU under a different name more or less), was signed in 1957. So yeah, nearly a century is not far off. The ideas have been there since 1920 under different names.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Can you try not to be extremely biased for a single day? I know it's hard man but Jesus fucking Christ you're taking it to the next level every single comment." Why would I not be biased? I'm defending one side, not two.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"League of Nations, for all intents and purposes the progenitor of the EU, was established Jan 1920. " But the league of nations was not the EU, only the forefather. And it was a joke that didn't prevent WWII from happening.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	"Reverse that and you get: Erdogan can choose when or if he unleashes masses of new immigrants to Europe. No influence? " Your words, not mine. I said little influence, not none. Your point about austerity is wrong again as it relates to the EU. Do not confuse the EU with the Eurozone. You should read more before you blindly support Brexit and Americans like myself have to give you a history lesson on your own continent.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"Your point about austerity is wrong again as it relates to the EU. Do not confuse the EU with the Eurozone. " No it's not, as the British have been 'asked' to help pay the Greece bailout and European nations need a certain financial stability and democratic policy to remain in the EU. Even without the monetary union, Britain still needs to move within a frame that is compatible with that of the EU. Masive public spending would not be possible. "Your words, not mine. I said little influence, not none" If you can unleash masses of immigrants into Europe with a snap of the fingers, that is a very big influence...
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"You should read more before you blindly support Brexit and Americans like myself have to give you a history lesson on your own continent." I think you should read again. Stop making such argument, it is silly. I respected you until that sentence
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	I hate to get petulant like that, but this is a serious issue that could really turn the global political order from progress into regression. The costs are not worth the benefits.
zakalwe 06.20.16	The death of Britain is coming, sold out, exhausted and ready to become a nation of religious zealots. Thy fame is ancient as the days, As Ocean large and wide: A pride that dares, and heeds not praise, A stern and silent pride: Not that false joy that dreams content With what our sires have won; The blood a hero sire hath spent Still nerves a hero son.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	The EU is far from perfect but it needs to be changed, not abandoned by its key members.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"I hate to get petulant like that, but this is a serious issue that could really turn the global political order from progress into regression. " But if you read what I have to say, you'll see that there was no reason...
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"The EU is far from perfect but it needs to be changed, not abandoned by its key members." It's hard to change the EU, if the peoples of Europe cannot (!) vote EU-commissioners and members of parliament out of it...it is immensely undemocratic. We can only vote them in. Not out, if we reckon we've made a mistake lol The only thing we can do is determine their seats in the parliament. But after getting into the EU, they can stay there in other functions or positions.
Cygnatti 06.20.16	i'd vote leave tbh
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	Why? (just curious)
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	We can agree to disagree, bakker. For your sake as well as mine, however, I hope sense prevails and the UK remains in the EU.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"We can agree to disagree, bakker. For your sake as well as mine, however, I hope sense prevails and the UK remains in the EU." Ofcourse. In the end, it all comes down to: choosing to keep something that is (highly) flawed vs. taking a risk (for good or for worse) by jumping into the void
guitarded_chuck 06.20.16	vote for ali
PurpleDino 06.20.16	Leave. Immigration is pretty much a non-issue for me. The single market, at least in services, is a myth, and the economic benefits of the EU for the UK are overstated to say the least. What little benefit exists surely is not in the hands of working people. Reforming the EU is not going to happen the way we want it to, it is only going to become more and more integrated, as is its stated aim. In an ideal world that would be fantastic, but it is utopian. The workers' rights that we enjoy in this country are the result of Labour governments, not the EU. Yes if we leave we'll have an unadulterated Tory government until at least 2020, but that is not eternity. Basically I don't buy any of the fear mongering of Remain, I don't think Brexit will cause major long term problems, equally I don't think it will solve everything. If we vote to Remain I won't be that bothered, but I think it's worth taking the chance to be an independent country and improving our own highly imperfect democracy before we become a province of a political European Union. I don't think it is valid to avoid voting Leave because of the likes of Gove, Farage and BoJo, there has long been and continues to be left-wing support for Brexit.
Storm In A Teacup 06.20.16	Star Wars EU? Remain.
bakkermaarten007 06.20.16	"vote for ali " So far trying to to pretend you've got a life outside sputnik. Funny man
Sinternet 06.20.16	'The workers' rights that we enjoy in this country are the result of Labour governments, not the EU. Yes if we leave we'll have an unadulterated Tory government until at least 2020, but that is not eternity.' While this is true, the EU provides protections of these rights which the Tories would inevitably destroy if this restraint were to be lifted. And however much people try to make the left-wing case for Leave, it will inevitably be seen as a triumph for the right-wing parties like UKIP and the hard right Tories, increasing their support and making the 2020 election extremely tough for Labour.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	"The single market, at least in services, is a myth, and the economic benefits of the EU for the UK are overstated to say the least. What little benefit exists surely is not in the hands of working people." Economic data doesn't support your sweeping claims save that immigration does reduce labor costs which does have an adverse impact on the lives of working people to some degree. However it also opens more opportunities for the more educated and those willing to adapt to a new economic environment. Capitalism creates as it destroys, although not always in a 1:1 ratio.
guitarded_chuck 06.20.16	" So far trying to to pretend you've got a life outside sputnik. Funny man" can you repeat this in cohesive english i dont understand what you are trying to say
PurpleDino 06.20.16	"Economic data doesn't support your sweeping claims" We must be looking at different data then.
anarchistfish 06.20.16	i'm not voting cos i started caring too late to organise a proxy vote and i'm not in the country on the day
anarchistfish 06.20.16	everything about this referendum and the discourse surrounding it is stupid though like when people think watching question time makes them intelligent
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	"We must be looking at different data then." Clearly. Basic economic indicators, such as GDP growth, are unarguably higher as a result of participation in the free and open market. To dispute this is to say that pretty much every major economist who studies the subject is wrong.
guitarded_chuck 06.20.16	gdp isnt a good economic indicator tbh
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	You're welcome to have that opinion, but it's more or less a standard measurement. There's a reason for that. Economics is far from perfect as a (social) science but these are usually the terms data are described in.
anarchistfish 06.20.16	yh well you're making both the commie and the geographer in me rage hard
guitarded_chuck 06.20.16	it's a standard measurement among people who arent economists honestly, actual economists make forecasts based on other factors i should clarify - its a measurement of how much money is changing hands, but isnt a good indicator of economic growth
anarchistfish 06.20.16	I think we stopped taking GDP seriously around A Level
Final Origin 06.20.16	Cameron was absolutely turd on Question Time last night, no clue what he is on about.
zakalwe 06.20.16	Yep, government in a nutshell. It's why it's been taken out of theirs and the peoples hands
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	"I think we stopped taking GDP seriously around A Level" Sorry I didn't realize I was dealing with veritable economic experts here on a music forum. I'm not claiming to be myself - but it's virtually indisputable that the EU's free and open market has led to generally accepted economic indications of growth.
anarchistfish 06.20.16	Yeah and that's an incredibly superficial representation of it, both because those indicators don't take into account how unbalanced that growth in wealth is, how it's actually materialised and because it ignores all other social factors that don't relate purely to the exchange of money.
Spacesh1p 06.20.16	Simplified is probably more accurate than superficial. It certainly doesn't tell the whole story.
Final Origin 06.22.16	Juncker has well and truly killed the remain argument of future 'reform' for UK within EU, what an idiot. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-juncker-idUKKCN0Z81G4
zakalwe 06.22.16	Boris' 'independence day' speech was great until he threw that clanger in there. London is awash with remain posters. Essex the opposite. I'm still going to be leaving.
anarchistfish 06.22.16	all of my friends that are voting are voting remain. think I'm p much the only one that considered voting leave, but the idea of leaving an independent UK in the hands of these nationalist lunatics makes me feel sick
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	Hopefully you'll be on the losing side, Zak man.
PurpleDino 06.22.16	I don't think a conservative govt. outside of the EU would really be all that different than the one we have now
zakalwe 06.22.16	What a bunch of bottlers
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	The leavers? yeah, agreed.
zakalwe 06.22.16	Nah. Why as a country do we want to be dictated to by a tyrannical bunch of arseholes whose only interest is keeping a self governed elite at the top? Fuck 'em. There will be a slight economic decline? Even if there is to have a voice will be priceless.
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	That's one way to look at the EU. A reductive and misinformed one, but yeah, sure.
RadicalEd 06.22.16	REMAIN!!!
RadicalEd 06.22.16	LEAVE!!!
zakalwe 06.22.16	Gimme some truth, all I want is the truth.
RadicalEd 06.22.16	Eat my shorts
trve 06.22.16	truth is leave, delusional retardedness and fear of change is remain
PurpleDino 06.22.16	trvth is leave agreed
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	We're tired of the experts!
Vakarian12 06.22.16	leave https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XPHL4Q86t4
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	lol You leavers are crazy.
PurpleDino 06.22.16	loooool it's all about Lexit folks
zakalwe 06.22.16	This is 20mins long but it's bang on. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rNJ05NfM-4Y Leave!!
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	How uneducated do you have to be to believe this scaremongering garbage?
ApplaudBlue 06.22.16	So many idiots in this site.
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	So many idiots on the internet. fixed for ya
ApplaudBlue 06.22.16	reading your comments , you are one of them .
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	Thanks buddy.
Spacesh1p 06.22.16	It's a full time job being part of the educated elite, trying to trick the enlightened proletariat into choosing their own downfall.
PurpleDino 06.22.16	that video was dece til he started talking about immigration, the biggest non-issue of all time
anat 06.22.16	After much deliberation I'm sticking with the Remain vote.
DanielNightLewis 06.23.16	Voted remain.
Sinternet 06.23.16	Same
zakalwe 06.23.16	The polling station was mobbed this morning. I cast my vote. Voice of the voiceless.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	Remain looks to be ahead, good on you, UK.
CalculatingInfinity 06.23.16	I really hope not.
DoofusWainwright 06.23.16	I'd think about voting out...but then you watch an interview with a man in the street saying 'this'll sort out our immigration and stop the foreigners coming in' and I can't help but vote the opposite to that, just because that isn't what this vote is about and to negate that dude's vote
zakalwe 06.23.16	Yeah they don't help the cause doof. There's so much more going for leave but it gets dragged down by the knuckleheads.
CalculatingInfinity 06.23.16	"I'd think about voting out...but then you watch an interview with a man in the street saying 'this'll sort out our immigration and stop the foreigners coming in' and I can't help but vote the opposite to that, just because that isn't what this vote is about and to negate that dude's vote" So you let the demeanor of a man change your vote despite making your mind up to leave by your own critical thinking? Way to waste your vote.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	At least he voted the right way.
MercuryToHell 06.23.16	Voted in. There was not a single person in the polling station when we went in at 10.00. I have fear that one of the single most important and irreversible decisions of our lifetime is going to be ignored by the disaffected.
DoofusWainwright 06.23.16	I respect people who want to leave because they genuinely trust in the democratic system in this country, don't believe this country is living beyond it's means as a world force and trust the government to look after worker's rights/the environment. If you work in a regular job and care even a little bit about the environment you should probably vote remain. The Tories will erode a lot of those policies and I doubt that same man in the street will find those savings going into his pay packet
Feather 06.23.16	So when does the Queen make her decision?
unaMUSEd 06.23.16	Jumping in this thread as an American looking in from the outside but surely remain is the only sensible option here.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	Remain is indeed the sensible option. Leave's arguments are basically calcified populist anger and not much else. There's a reason the vast majority of leave voters are uneducated (no university degrees) and old (on pensions, own land, face less of the economic consequences of leaving).
InfamousGrouse 06.23.16	voted Remain this afternoon, if you southern scumbags drag us out involuntarily I am going to be crushed there's my anti-English clause completed for the day.
zakalwe 06.23.16	Don't be so insulting space. Sheesh. There are countries within Europe who aren't in the EU believe it or not.
anarchistfish 06.23.16	there are very good reasons to undermine the EU's authority unfortunately that's not why people are voting leave
Sinternet 06.23.16	will move to Scotland if we leave tbqh
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	I'm not trying to be insulting, that's legitimately the demographic makeup according to polls. I'm aware there's countries that are not in the EU Zak dude.
anarchistfish 06.23.16	if this goes badly i can always just fall back on my french passport
CalculatingInfinity 06.23.16	"Leave's arguments are basically calcified populist anger and not much else." If you only listen to Farage and people who can only say "UGHHHHH immigration" then sure.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	Agreed, fish. The EU is far from perfect and needs reforms, like pretty much any political institution to ever exist, but leaving is not the answer. It would be a serious regression.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	"If you only listen to Farage and people who can only say "UGHHHHH immigration" then sure." Feel free to enlighten me, but it's more or less universally agreed that the economic net positives of being in the EU far outweigh exit. If you'd like to make an argument about some notion of sovereignty, that's something I can't refute. However the cost of that internal sovereignty will be getting pushed around at an international level.
MercuryToHell 06.23.16	- Leave's arguments are basically calcified populist anger and not much else' - If you only listen to Farage and people who can only say "UGHHHHH immigration" then sure. Farage is a different type of disgusting and I don't tar all leave campaigners with the same brush, but the 'FACTS' leaflet that has been put through my door was not just created by him, and also includes precisely ZERO facts. Not to mention also this horseshit scaremongering about Turkey - I mean really...
zakalwe 06.23.16	The EU is a fucking tyranny it's why the 'vote' has already been decided.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	"The EU is a fucking tyranny it's why the 'vote' has already been decided." I'll stop trying to convince you if you actually believe such conspiracy theories.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	The garbage about Turkey is ridiculous. They will likely never join the EU. Them joining by 2021 is virtually impossible. They are so far from completing the necessary requirements with basically no common will to even get the process off the ground right now that asserting Turkey joining the EU as a point towards leaving is an absolute farce.
zakalwe 06.23.16	Turkey will join though. They want to join, there is an embassy looking to fast track their assimilation.
SirArthur6 06.23.16	Well I've voted leave. I like to consider it a middle finger to the EU's power-hungry, stupidly over-bureaucratic, undemocratic way of doing things.
Sinternet 06.23.16	whether they want to join or not is not the issue, several other countries want too as well. However they will never be accepted into the EU while they fail to comply with the rules and regulations, and let's not forget that every single member state has to approve their membership
Sinternet 06.23.16	'I like to consider it a middle finger to the EU's power-hungry, stupidly over-bureaucratic, undemocratic way of doing things.' as opposed to a warm friendly embrace to the conservatives' power-hungry, stupidly over-bureaucratic, undemocratic way of doing things.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	"Turkey will join though. They want to join, there is an embassy looking to fast track their assimilation. " Is that what they tell you? Want to or not, they are so far away from completing the necessary steps that using it as a point of discussion is ridiculous. "I like to consider it a middle finger to the EU's power-hungry, stupidly over-bureaucratic, undemocratic way of doing things. " Hope it felt good. Surely it will feel much better bending over to their demands for access to the single market with no say in EU governance.
zakalwe 06.23.16	Surely it'll be testament to just how fickle, corrupt and built on bullshit the EU is when turkey get admission before 2020.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	"Before 2020" I'll bet my lifetime income that won't happen. You know nothing about the EU accession process if you actually believe that man.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	Feel free to read up on the 35 chapters of requirements and see for yourself just how far Turkey is from EU entry. http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis/index_en.htm
zakalwe 06.23.16	A deal will be struck and a compromise will take place cos souls are sold. It's what happens dude..
torts 06.23.16	soccer ye
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	"A deal will be struck and a compromise will take place cos souls are sold. It's what happens dude.." I'll stop here then.
Relinquished 06.23.16	zak's a strong but misled soul
zakalwe 06.23.16	Cool. I'll have that as an epitaph.
Relinquished 06.23.16	I'll personally engrave it
PurpleDino 06.23.16	haven't voted yet but it's Lexit for me
DrGonzo1937 06.23.16	My vote is in: I'm out.
zakalwe 06.23.16	Racist and thick as shit
DrGonzo1937 06.23.16	Said almost every naive, bigot supporting the Remain campaign.
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	You're probably not racist and thick as shit but I disagree with your position. There, dispelled your absolutist theory.
anat 06.23.16	I wonder how many Leave voters, voting against an unelected establishment, would also vote in favour of abolishing the Royal Family
zakalwe 06.23.16	Probably. lol
DrGonzo1937 06.23.16	zak is, of course, poking fun at more than half the Remain supporters, who basically think this.
DrGonzo1937 06.23.16	I'd love to anatelier haha
anat 06.23.16	Same, just seen a lot of "VOTE FOR QUEEN AND COUNTRY, GET AHT THE EU" propaganda round my way
zakalwe 06.23.16	I'm seeing a huge upswing in remain voters at the min which is quite discouraging
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	I'm aware, Gonzo. No one is really coming out of this looking particularly good.
DrGonzo1937 06.23.16	I've noticed the death of Jo has certainly swayed some people to vote Remain.
anat 06.23.16	Ultimately I voted Remain cos I think it'll bode well for next year's Eurovision Song Contest
BenThatsMyJamin 06.23.16	"I'm seeing a huge upswing in remain voters at the min which is quite discouraging" Where?
Sinternet 06.23.16	maybe we can get in the top 20 next year
zakalwe 06.23.16	Essex
BenThatsMyJamin 06.23.16	I meant like official polls or something but I guess Essex works as an answer to most things
PurpleDino 06.23.16	"I wonder how many Leave voters, voting against an unelected establishment, would also vote in favour of abolishing the Royal Family" in a heartbeat mate, my parents definitely wouldn't tho
Spacesh1p 06.23.16	"I see politicians on TV every night telling us that this is a fucking momentous decision that could fucking change Britain forever and blah, blah, blah. It’s like, okay, why don’t you fucking do what we pay you to do which is run the fucking country and make your fucking mind up....What are you asking the people for? 99 percent of the people are thick as pig shit." - Noel Gallagher, with no lack of subtlety as usual - torts
zakalwe 06.23.16	Noel Gallagher is a legend. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!
zakalwe 06.24.16	This is bloody exciting!
Sinternet 06.24.16	Scotland may be a saving grace here
Relinquished 06.24.16	the turnout rates are pretty bad lol
zakalwe 06.24.16	It's been mentioned numerous times on the coverage but it's bang on that people are kicking against the pricks. All them polls haven't accounted for the droves of people sick and tired of the establishment. The arse has already fallen out of the pound :D Remain will win though.
Sinternet 06.24.16	while i disagree with leaving i'm really not that surprised that people are pissed off over a succession of governments that have consistently failed the people, particularly in the north
zakalwe 06.24.16	Turn outs pretty bad? You having a laugh the turn out is double if not triple what it is for a general election
Sinternet 06.24.16	most places are about 60-70% right? that's about the same as last year's election iirc
anat 06.24.16	This yellow vs. blue stuff reminds me of the show 50/50, which coincidentally is probably how this will all end!
zakalwe 06.24.16	The turn outs are consistently knocking around 70% In some constituencies when the general election was on it was 30%
Sinternet 06.24.16	fair enough, really close so far though some big wins for leave but some consistent remain voting outside of england
zakalwe 06.24.16	My Basildon vote counted. Essex looks like it's had a massive turnout, all leave at the min. Brentwood is surprising.
Sinternet 06.24.16	Leave taking a slight lead atm, but most of these areas were predicted to vote that way anyway
zakalwe 06.24.16	All those disenfranchised have come out of the woodwork. All the down trodden who just get told what to do and who the polls haven't accounted for are speaking out. We are heading for a recession! Cool!!!
Relinquished 06.24.16	we really are, that's a problem, naturally of course. glad I'm prepared tho.
zaruyache 06.24.16	"All those disenfranchised have come out of the woodwork." yeah that's happening in the US, too. Similarly not actually good for the country lmao.
zakalwe 06.24.16	It'll defo be remain. London will get its way and ruin it for the rest of us.
Sinternet 06.24.16	finally some remain on the england map
Sinternet 06.24.16	if this goes leave then scotland is definitely leaving, and now wales may be interested too
Sinternet 06.24.16	getting tighter now, this will be interesting
zakalwe 06.24.16	I'm moving to Wales. Fucking soft as shite London hipster arseholes.
anat 06.24.16	zak was the one who shouted "goodbye Brussels!"
Sinternet 06.24.16	enjoy the sheep mate
Sinternet 06.24.16	at least watching this has made me more aware of how lacking my knowledge of uk geography is
zakalwe 06.24.16	lol. I actually think my eyes are going to fall out me head through lack of sleep. I'm going to do a typical leave voter tactic and bang a couple of e's
Relinquished 06.24.16	grab some sleep u old nog, isn't this whole thing gonna be done by tomorrow anyway?
zakalwe 06.24.16	Yeah it will be but its captivating viewing. Tight as hell.
InfamousGrouse 06.24.16	FUCK THIS
Relinquished 06.24.16	gg you fuckers got your wish
Spec 06.24.16	did they choose leave?
Relinquished 06.24.16	400,000 lead to leave for the moment and the pound fell hard lol
Spec 06.24.16	really not a good idea to leave
Spec 06.24.16	like im not a fucking expert or anything but it sounds like a really risky move
Sinternet 06.24.16	Farage wins the award for the most disgraceful politician i've ever seen
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Shame on you British. I hope the EU consolidates further and your union alone bares the cost of this mistake.
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	But of course with a global economy it's my problem too.
lazyeye 06.24.16	lol
JWT155 06.24.16	I have friends waiting to buy puts on the pound the min it bottoms out
Kman418 06.24.16	sucks your guys economy is gonna fuckin tank but the good news is the british pound is gonna drop so low i'll be able to get deep house records off discogs for hella cheap now
Relinquished 06.24.16	better act quick on that cuz you're not the only one with that idea kman lol
JWT155 06.24.16	They'll rebound
Friday13th 06.24.16	OH BOY I haven't been this proud to be 1/8th British! You guys are gonna love this liberty thing.
Sinternet 06.24.16	Well we just committed economic suicide gg
Sinternet 06.24.16	Wonder how decent the unis are in scotland
Relinquished 06.24.16	the resulting outcomes won't be that bad honestly but I'm here a few countries away with popcorn in hand
trackbytrackreviews 06.24.16	so the UK actually left wow
Relinquished 06.24.16	yea in a couple of years
SPRFanOf5H 06.24.16	The British pound hit a 31-year low because of their leave. This so helps me to see my girlfriend for the cheap in Birmingham for New Years.
theacademy 06.24.16	holy shit this is insanity
lazyeye 06.24.16	it will rebound way quicker than you think
JWT155 06.24.16	Yep, so many speculators waiting to capitalize on the rebound
Spec 06.24.16	ron mclean is returning to hockey night in canada tho those are the headlines here sweet home canaananaada
trackbytrackreviews 06.24.16	Breaking News: UK reannexes Canada to offset EU exit
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	Well, it's been fun knowing you, Britain
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	The EU can do without Britain, the other way around? Not too sure.
zakalwe 06.24.16	UNBEFUCKINGLEIVABLE!!!!!!!!!!
trackbytrackreviews 06.24.16	unf-uk-ingbelieveable
zakalwe 06.24.16	This is scary stuff. A divided nation, fractions with the scots and Northern Irish and a recession on the cards but.....Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves. Britain never never never shall be slaves.
Rowhaus 06.24.16	France will go next. Bye bye, EU.
zakalwe 06.24.16	Bring it down. It'll be like 'The Road' around here in 5 years time but fuck you London, have some of that EU, shove it new world order and bollocks to you Brussels.
Ovrot 06.24.16	So scotland will leave next chance they get and northern ireland might join ireland again from what I'm reading? Will I have to buy new maps?
zakalwe 06.24.16	We will have to get an immigrant cartographer to do the job us lot are thick as pig shit.
p4p 06.24.16	but they will be deported
Storm In A Teacup 06.24.16	As an American I have no idea what this means besides Britain isn't going to have certain laws regulated by a higher power and they won't be using the Euro anymore. I guess it would be unbelievable to me if I had a basic education (page or two of reading, not comments) of what the situation is, but alas.
Ebola 06.24.16	RIP Dave Cameron
zakalwe 06.24.16	Storm we never had the Euro. What it means is the UK will remove itself from the European government which ultimately holds sway over the free movement of people and trade within the European Union and which imposes set rules and regulations that directly effect the UK despite its government or people not wanting them. Like giving our fishing waters to the Spanish and what have you. The U.K will have sovereignty in other words. The movement of people into the country will be regulated, trade deals with other nations can be set up and we won't all be saluting a flag which has been fashioned by an elite accountable to no one.
TenSecondsToThink 06.24.16	how does this affect me, an average human being on earth?
Keyblade 06.24.16	"sucks your guys economy is gonna fuckin tank but the good news is the british pound is gonna drop so low i'll be able to get deep house records off discogs for hella cheap now" lol best post itt
someguest 06.24.16	The UK was just trying to avoid having London become part of Oceania. ;)
Kman418 06.24.16	not even kidding within 15 minutes of posting that comment i'd sent in the invoice for a floating points EP ive wanted for months now feels good man
someguest 06.24.16	Fuck centralized control. Good for them. The markets are just a way for everyone else to punish them short term. This will be the hardest it gets.
Snake. 06.24.16	i predict a purge in 2018
someguest 06.24.16	"So many idiots on the internet." You tipped the scale in favor of idiots.
BenThatsMyJamin 06.24.16	Remainers on suicide watch all over my fb now lol
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	lol this morning reminds me of the bit in Threads where the Russians really do fire a nuke over Sheffield and one of the characters just says 'they really did it'
someguest 06.24.16	It probably wouldn't have happened without the Syrian refugee crisis going on. People are really concerned about losing their culture with the volume of immigrants moving around the region.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	Can't help but feel the likelihood of: -the EU totally collapsing has now gone up by 50% -our country falling into a deep recession has gone up by 40% -a high profile terrorist attack on our shores has gone up 20% -normal workers working extra hours a week has gone up 20%
someguest 06.24.16	Where are you pulling those percentages from?
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	my mind call them hunches call them bullshit
someguest 06.24.16	Believe me, I know what to call 'em.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	I'm not saying those are the likelihoods of those events happening, just that they are slightly more likely now (depends how likely I thought they all were in the first place - which was not a lot)
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	so if I thought there was a 2% chance of the EU collapsing in the next 20 years now I think it's 3% the chance of the country falling back into deep recession is a higher one - maybe closer to 15% so now that has gone up significantly
someguest 06.24.16	I think the EU is a disease. It encourages weakness. It allows failing countries to succeed on the backs off the few large, productive countries. Those few pay for peace just like the US does around the world. Their capital is the force against instability. A system that punishes you for succeeding will fall apart.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	Depends if you see a rosier future for all the members in the future or believe it's all going to go to shit. I was an optimist about it and liked the idea of having close ties to those countries but fair enough, we'll see how it goes.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	Congratulations zakalwe
RadicalEd 06.24.16	"I think the EU is a disease. It encourages weakness. It allows failing countries to succeed on the backs off the few large, productive countries. Those few pay for peace just like the US does around the world. Their capital is the force against instability. A system that punishes you for succeeding will fall apart." nice memes. Deeply simplistic and factually inaccurate of course. But this is in vogue right now, so congratz.
Storm In A Teacup 06.24.16	@zak oh okay thanks. Seems like a good thing. Sounds like your country is just moving out of your parents house and going out on your own. Always risky but worth it and part of life. Except Britain has been a country for hundreds of years and should already have been independent. I love the David Cameron resigned I know enough to not like him at all.
LambsBread 06.24.16	Britain is smart. They see what lax immigration is doing to the US and Europe and made a good decision for the long term. They may be the only true western nation left a century from now.
smaugman 06.24.16	"As an American I have no idea what this means besides Britain isn't going to have certain laws regulated by a higher power and they won't be using the Euro anymore" americans in a nutshell
Mister Twister 06.24.16	how's about that pound tho
claygurnz 06.24.16	Holy shit are people on my facebook mad, I think it's a little early for popcorn though lol
CalculatingInfinity 06.24.16	It's about time I put my full opinion in the hat, since I've been hesitant in doing so: Regardless of decision, I hated every single moment of the campaign. The lies, the fearmongering, the fact that an MP has lost her life in the lead up, I feel like no matter what I voted it will be misinformed in some aspect and I never wanted to vote (despite voting leave, due to being in the EU is not being a fully democratic process and the EU hiding the fact they were creating a national army to enforce political policy). From the fall out so far I can say 2 comments about it: 1. David has resigned, I knew this would happen and thankful I never have to see that cunt's face again. 2. Farage is an awful person and I want to punch him. I want the NHS to be preserved over any matter, you motherfucker.
Storm In A Teacup 06.24.16	@smaug Well yeah they're on the other side of the ocean, a different government and a different country. Even the well educated can learn about 50 different state governments and a federal government before learning about different governments outside our own country. And that's just government not culture or history.
Asdfp277 06.24.16	ok somebody explain this shit to me, so the country is no longer part of the eu, the pound is down by a 7%, the pm is quittin and scotland is livid, and i have a few (basic) questions: 1. what 2. why did this happen in the first place? what were the motivations behind this? 3. lmao why the pm quit 4. whats going to happen 5. what 6. lmaoo
Storm In A Teacup 06.24.16	Also what Spain said about wanting at least co ownership of Gbraltar since Britain is leaving EU would make Trump hit the nuke button on them in two seconds if Britain was his, unless they offered a lot of money.
Asdfp277 06.24.16	it looks like nobody actually wants to be part of the uk except for parts of britain itself so
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	@asdfp: 1. Short term fallout after the referendum was to be expected. Long term remains to be seen. 2. Motivations are: border control, democratic deficit, financial regulations from top-down and most of all a sense of identity that has gone lost. 3.The pm couldn't stay on after losing. He heavily endorsed the remain campaign and therefore would not be very credible leading a GB that is preparing to step out of the EU. 4. the void, the void, the void. One can only guess. There are so many factors: America's next president, Putin, the EU's new stance to Britain, world economy, conflict in the middle-East,... 5. What? 6. =/
Kman418 06.24.16	"People are really concerned about losing their culture with the volume of immigrants moving around the region." the thing ive noticed about european politics vs american politics is when they try to explain why they want to stop immigration at least they don't make up some bullshit about losing jobs or whatever they're just straight up like yeah we really just hate brown people and you know what, i can respect that
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"they're just straight up like yeah we really just hate brown people" Eh, where did you hear that?
Kman418 06.24.16	almost directly from the comment i quoted and like 90% of the rest of the rhetoric surrounding it but also ur mr. all muslims are criminals from the dark ages so im going to avoid this conversation beyond this point sry
Pon 06.24.16	I just wanna see a Super Deluxe video about this, is that too much to ask?
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	You're accusing Europeans of being blindly racist, lol From what I can gather, most of us just want to preserve our heritage. We have no problem with other races as long as these other races adopt our basic cultural 'source code', needed for a coherent society (as opposed to multiculture)
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"also ur mr. all muslims are criminals from the dark ages" Nope, I'm not. I'm Mr. 'Islam is a death cult that throws cultures back to the dark ages'.
InfamousGrouse 06.24.16	"Wonder how decent the unis are in scotland" St. Andrew's, Glasgow and Edinburgh are among the finest in the UK if not the English speaking world. They're also considerably cheaper vis-a-vis tuition fees than their English counterparts. Interesting poll showing the relationship between voter age and persuasion: http://imgur.com/Ctg18Pe As a Remain supporter from Scotland (who comprise almost two-thirds of our electorate), this is a bitter pill to swallow. EU membership has offered me so many life opportunities, so I'm particularly crushed about my right to free movement and right to work being rescinded by English and Welsh voters.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"Interesting poll showing the relationship between voter age and persuasion: http://imgur.com/Ctg18Pe" The older, the wiser indeed
Kman418 06.24.16	ur literally just typing out white supremacy ideology sound bites at this point wow omg
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"EU membership has offered me so many life opportunities, so I'm particularly crushed about my right to free movement" You've got two years left- give or take- to travel freely
CalculatingInfinity 06.24.16	Criticizing the ideology of Islam isn't racism you dumbass, it is not a race.
tempest-- 06.24.16	maarten "i'm not racist i just want all other races to conform to my culture"
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"ur literally just typing out white supremacy ideology sound bites at this point wow omg" Ah? I don't think I am. Stop your gross accusations. I don't believe in superior races. But I sure as hell believe that the Western culture is superior to the Islamic culture. And anyone who doesn't should not stay around the culture that has offered him so much. To embrace a culture is to support a culture, not secretly hoping for its demise.
Kman418 06.24.16	literally feel like im reading the wikipedia page for white power right now
Kman418 06.24.16	But I sure as hell believe that the Western culture is superior to the Islamic culture. And anyone who doesn't should not stay around the culture that has offered him so much. But I sure as hell believe that the Western culture is superior to the Islamic culture. And anyone who doesn't should not stay around the culture that has offered him so much. But I sure as hell believe that the Western culture is superior to the Islamic culture. And anyone who doesn't should not stay around the culture that has offered him so much. im phasing out of reality
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	It is not racist to demand other cultures to conform to the host culture. Show me what's racist about it? It doesn't involve skin colour or any genetic aspect. It is about values and basic principles. To accuse me of racism, is to not want to think about what I have to say. As so often.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"But I sure as hell believe that the Western culture is superior to the Islamic culture. And anyone who doesn't should not stay around the culture that has offered him so much. im phasing out of reality" Better yet: so you disagree with this? You do realize that by saying this you reject that equality, freedom of speech, human rights and secularism are NOT superior to the reverse?
Kman418 06.24.16	http://www.whitepower.com/index.php/category/cultural-genocide/ hey bakker read some of the stuff here i think u will find some things really enlightening and thought provoking
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"literally feel like im reading the wikipedia page for white power right now " Shut it. I have never declared any race to be better than one another. I'm talking about cultures, about the accumulative residu of living together for centuries.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	Kman, honest question: do you find it so pleasant to set people up? Wouldn't it be respectable to just follow my line of thought and not set up a strawman for everything I have to say? You might think that people are stupid, but most users here will see through this shit. Or so I hope. Don't say the things for me, that I will never say or believe.
Kman418 06.24.16	holy fucking shit culture is literally the primary way in which race manifests on a social level, like you really seem to think that racism and race as a concept literally ends at "hurr this persons skin is a different color than mine" how are you this impenetrably thick wow. astounding. anyways im going to bed but this list will have like 700 comments by tomorrow morning
InfamousGrouse 06.24.16	"You've got two years left- give or take- to travel freely" Indeed - and I'm aiming to emigrate before the real Brexit takes place.
Pon 06.24.16	Okay Kman now go cry into your John Oliver body pillow, jesus
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	kman, you know you're wrong. And if you don't, then I feel bad for you. And try to answer my questions, which you obviously dare not. I will repeat: do you not think that secularism, freedom of speech, equality and human rights are vastly superior to a culture that doesn't acknowledge any of these? That is what it comes down to. Not race, not racism. Don't sidestep and answer.
CalculatingInfinity 06.24.16	Apparently criticizing an ideology which supports having the view point of the punishment of homosexuals (usually by death)/the shunning of them from society, a woman having half the worth of a man in testimony and stoning people for adultery and group raping journalists reporting on their culture is racism. Yeah fuck off.
RadicalEd 06.24.16	Lol Kman, I've got no love for bakkers nationalism and tribalism, but you're pulling the hardest strawman I've seen in my entire life and I'm genuinely curious if you're this stupid or this dishonest.
Kman418 06.24.16	no i figured i'd made it clear that i really don't give a shit about "having a discussion" with much of anyone on sputnik other than maybe like 2 or 3 people i actually respect, and i e s p e c i a l l y have 0 interest in having any actual discussion with you. people can think im stupid i really don't give a shit cause i know the users i actually care about and whos opinions i would actually value also think ur a massive moron so why would i care beyond that look im gonna level with you dude: i think you're a massive dumbass and its clear to me at this point that really any sort of discussion or anything im gonna be able to say isn't gonna change that so im not gonna bother, but that doesn't change the fact that its still fucking funny to laugh at when you actually say shit like this and like, genuinely believe it
Kman418 06.24.16	yeah see like radicaled is a user i really don't give a shit about honestly so like he can go ahead and think im an idiot if he wants cuz im still laffin
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	Just answer one question. It's all I ask. But you know you're stuck within your own web of strawmen so you won't answer it. Funny how you thought you could get me stuck but end up stuck yourself lol
Kman418 06.24.16	john olivers slightly annoying and got a weird looking face dude i don't fuck w that guy
CalculatingInfinity 06.24.16	So you only care about making an echo chamber around yourself and you entered a discussion with no prior thought of caring? Okay then.
Kman418 06.24.16	bakker you're clearly underestimating how little i really care in this situation
Pon 06.24.16	Whatever, literally everything you're saying from the conflation of race, culture and religion complete with the "I mean really/wow just wow/it's the current year" rhetoric just smacks of someone who's only source of political insight is Last Week Tonight. Just fuck off, I'm embarrassed for you.
Kman418 06.24.16	no i could actually explain my thought process here ive had discussions about this whole topic with more than a few people now and have an opinion beyond "i mean really just wow" or whatever the difference there is those are actually people i care to talk about anything political with cause i actually value their thoughts
Asdfp277 06.24.16	bakker only cares about homosexuals because it allows him to hate on muslims lmao
RadicalEd 06.24.16	"yeah see like radicaled is a user i really don't give a shit about honestly so like he can go ahead and think im an idiot if he wants cuz im still laffin" User Kman needs a hugbox and thinks having a discussion is talking strictly to people who agree with him 100% of the time. "bakker only cares about homosexuals because it allows him to hate on muslims lmao" what a mean spirited way to approach his position.
Asdfp277 06.24.16	"To embrace a culture is to support a culture, not secretly hoping for its demise" to embrace a culture is to mix with it, and keep evolving
ShadowRemains 06.24.16	"The older, the wiser indeed" jesus this is such a fucking ignorant statement
Asdfp277 06.24.16	radical: u can say whatever abt it, it's the truth anyway lmao
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"bakker only cares about homosexuals because it allows him to hate on muslims lmao" No. I genuinely care about my fellow people.
Kman418 06.24.16	"User Kman needs a hugbox and thinks having a discussion is talking strictly to people who agree with him 100% of the time. " no not really, discussions with people u only agree with is boring, but im not gonna bother arguing with you over something if you have views that are clearly well established and unchanging that are incredibly stupid and ignorant (and also in this case would serve as the foundation for the discussion) which bakker has consistently proved is the case
RadicalEd 06.24.16	"radical: u can say whatever abt it, it's the truth anyway lmao" but can we agree that you're leaving any semblance of a rational debate when you're just giving the other side some uncharitable motives for the position without any evidence or justification beyond: "c'mon bro you no it tru".
Asdfp277 06.24.16	im not debating anyone in case u aint noticed just sayin some truth, makin an observation u know~
Kman418 06.24.16	like why would i try to explain how to do a calculus problem to someone if they're DEAD CERTAIN 2+2=5 and theres no changing their mind on that, what's that going to accomplish for me nothing so you don't try you just laugh at them for being stupid
RadicalEd 06.24.16	"if you have views that are clearly well established and unchanging that are incredibly stupid and ignorant" That is what easily could be said about your views on what constitutes racism judging from this thread and I still wouldn't just throw you out as a lost cause that is not worth talkin to.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	I've been called: racist, homophobe, bigot, cisgender,... Doesn't bother me.
Kman418 06.24.16	dude didn't u know that as soon as you post in a political thread you're ENGAGED IN THE CONVERSATION AND MUST ARGUE YR POINT TO THE DEATH
Asdfp277 06.24.16	i did, now im dead m/
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"im not debating anyone in case u aint noticed just sayin some truth, makin an observation u know" Well, your observing skills are not very keen. It's a blunt way to try to disrupt my statements here. 'Well, he must hate gays, 'cause I can't find any other hole in his rhetoric'. It's a compliment really.
Kman418 06.24.16	my views on race and how it functions within society have shifted a massive amount over time and have changed in some dramatic ways probably every year or so for a while now cause im pretty constantly engaged in political discourse, but when ive heard all the rhetoric being used here dozens of times and ive seen people break down those arguments and shut them down, what do i have to gain from engaging in that conversation
ShadowRemains 06.24.16	kman just stop, you're not helping your cause
Asdfp277 06.24.16	bakker: except im not even trying to "find any other hole in his rhetoric" i'm not even reading whats going on, just layin it out, some facts u kno
Asdfp277 06.24.16	i dont get, what he said abt racism
RadicalEd 06.24.16	ok you're to kewl to debate, stop commenting then.
zakalwe 06.24.16	I'm still shocked. I just cannot believe it. The people won.
Kman418 06.24.16	no you guys wont let me lea me alone i want to sleep
RadicalEd 06.24.16	"I just cannot believe it. The people won." lol. In every democratic vote, the people win. Also, I'm very skeptical that england will look at this in 20 years as a good day.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	" except im not even trying to "find any other hole in his rhetoric" i'm not even reading whats going on, just layin it out, some facts u kno" Your facts are not facts. Now stop trying to pigeonhole me in a archetype that's easier for you to understand.
ShadowRemains 06.24.16	"lol. In every democratic vote, the people win." eh... the majority also wanted slavery to continue in the united states
RadicalEd 06.24.16	yeah the (white, male people who were allowed to vote) people won that vote. I'm just pointing out that "the people won" is a shallow chant.
zakalwe 06.24.16	Don't be a tit. Look at how everything swung on London, if London had a slightly higher turnout it would've been remain despite masses of the country thinking differently.
Madbutcher3 06.24.16	the areas with the highest leave vote have the lowest migrant population to the surprise of basically nobody i'm pissed but i see no point in taking it out on brexit voters
RadicalEd 06.24.16	"Look at how everything swung on London, if London had a slightly higher turnout it would've been remain despite masses of the country thinking differently." yeah and now it's out despite the entirety of scotland thinkin otherwise, what are you even sayin.
zakalwe 06.24.16	I wish the country was more like London. Greater wealth disparity Higher Crime Untenable and hugely overpriced housing Over populated Mass cultural assimilation Crumbling public service Ridiculously congested Covered in filth and dirt Rude, obnoxious unforgiving population Gentrified areas occupied by oblivious arseholes
Madbutcher3 06.24.16	dunno if you've been to any of the places that voted leave by large majority recently such as stoke on trent but if you'd rather live there that's cool lol london is like any big city, don't act like everywhere in it is hackney
zakalwe 06.24.16	Not everywhere just 80% of it
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	I've been to London 9 years ago. Place didn't impress me. Gave me sort of a Brussels vibe, but bigger. Can only imagine how it is now
Madbutcher3 06.24.16	nah there are huge areas of london which are very nice, probably bigger than the UK's other major cities besides Edinburgh or Bristol. obviously it has huge problems but that's the case with any capital city and especially the biggest city in europe
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"obviously it has huge problems but that's the case with any capital city and especially the biggest city in europe" Let's all be shit together
smaugman 06.24.16	can we just stop talking about islam in every political thread?
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	If there are no opportunities to do so, ok. Otherwise I will keep carrying this burden, to enlighten the minds of my fellow people, to safeguard their future. Yes yes
smaugman 06.24.16	that sounded extremely neckbeard-ish. but after reading some of the comments above, you should do so lol
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"but after reading some of the comments above, you should do so lol" I thank you for your continued trust and support.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	I don't know about other media, but Belgian media are reporting that 'older people have jeopardized the young people's future' (because younger votes 18-25 have voted 75% in) While that is factually true, the sentiment of this kind of reporting is also neglecting the right of the elder to have a say in the future. As if they are already too old and are not as worthy of defining the future of their nation. This is the result, in my opinion, of the worshipping of youth in our materialist societies. It has gone too far. Throughout history- and still in large parts of the world- there have been gerontocracies. Here it has become 'wrong' and instead of having cast THEIR say, they have now 'jeopardized' what is apparently only a future for the young.
Sinternet 06.24.16	Well if one positive has actually come from this, at least dodgy Dave has gone. Hopefully they'll stick Boris in as leader so the country can see just how much of a joke he is.
CalculatingInfinity 06.24.16	Well to be fair, when it comes to people in work I have no problems with it however the elderly who are 65+ and retired don't have to live with the future impact the decision has while younger people do. Nothing would annoy me more than someone in their 70's telling me how to live in a society that has passed them by and completely changed.
CalculatingInfinity 06.24.16	I'll take Boris over Farage any day of the week just saying.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"Well to be fair, when it comes to people in work I have no problems with it however the elderly who are 65+ and retired don't have to live with the future impact the decision has while younger people do." I understand your point, but democracy doesn't discriminate the votes of its legal citizens.
anarchistfish 06.24.16	Time for the (mostly liberal) UK Left to stop whining and stand up for once. Can already tell from my fb feed we're only gonna alienate those who voted leave even more, and we'll allow the reactionaries to continue controlling the right wing discourse as they have for the last 35 years.
anarchistfish 06.24.16	Why do we have to hide behind the EU in fear of this aspect of our society. I feel like the left wing in the UK is totally disconnected with the mindset of the average people.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	Make that left wing in the entirety of Western Europe
anarchistfish 06.24.16	There was an interesting article in le monde actually, which shows the rough breakdown of voting by ideology (based on polls ofc). http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/06/01/ce-que-le-web-britannique-dit-du-brexit_4930639_4355770.html
guitarded_chuck 06.24.16	european and american politics are like the best reality tv show of all time for us canadians right now lmao
guitarded_chuck 06.24.16	bakker post a selfie in the show yourself thread
MO 06.24.16	damn should've shorted that GBP
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"bakker post a selfie in the show yourself thread " You can find pics of me in two previous threads (one was from 6 years ago though) "http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/06/01/ce-que-le-web-britannique-dit-du-brexit_4930639_4355770.html " I don't find this at all surprising (the first diagram). About the intensity of endorsement I was surprised though: seems like those pro-EU didn't care as much as those against.
guitarded_chuck 06.24.16	Any voter turnout numbers out yet?
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	75% I believe. I could be wrong, I don't know where I got that from
guitarded_chuck 06.24.16	thats not bad, i was sort of surmising that the voter turnout was low and the pro-eu demographic was probably ill-represented, maybe not though with those numbers
Evreaia 06.24.16	So when can I finally get my BELOUT/BEYGIUM/BEXIT now?
Relinquished 06.24.16	"I don't know where I got that from" that isn't the first time
unaMUSEd 06.24.16	So can someone please summarize how fucked/unfucked the UK is now?
Krvst 06.24.16	Proper fucked.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	"So can someone please summarize how fucked/unfucked the UK is now? " They are fucked by their uncertain future and unfucked by the EU
Madbutcher3 06.24.16	we weren't really fucked by the eu in the first place
Relinquished 06.24.16	so many of their businesses are gonna get fucked over
RadicalEd 06.24.16	Fucked in the short term 100%. Long term is debatable, but I think fucked even worse
InfamousGrouse 06.24.16	Zak, while wealth disparities, overpopulation, congestion and overpriced accommodation are comprehensible criticisms of London, I'm not entirely sure how "mass cultural assimilation" can be used as a negative?
Keyblade 06.24.16	cuz brown ppl moved on from stealing jobs to stealing cultures
InfamousGrouse 06.24.16	Participation was just over 72%, which is the largest electoral turnout (barring the 2014 Scottish indyref) since 1992. So it might seem low to some but in reality it's higher than most (although political apathy presumably plays a role)
anarchistfish 06.24.16	London voted to remain 61%. And I'd bet my £45k student loan the further central you'd go the more people would have voted to remain
zakalwe 06.24.16	Grouse my man. The cultural assimilation thing is in relation to a flooding into an area by people who push out the settled demographic. It happens in London on a continual cycle Jewish, Irish, Pakistani whereby the businesses are pushed out and others are undercut to facilitate the uptake and where the ideological preferences overtake and cultural differences take hold. Leads to overcrowding, unemployment, re directed funding, faith schools, mosques etc etc. It is a bit shit when it happens because it leads to feelings of disenfranchisement, oppression and hostility.
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	" It is a bit shit when it happens because it leads to feelings of disenfranchisement, oppression and hostility." But isn't it the scared white man? I'm confused lol
zakalwe 06.24.16	It's a myth to those who haven't lived it. All those old people who voted haven't got a clue, how dare they have a voice.
Keyblade 06.24.16	lol @ pushed out. white flight is completely voluntary
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	Yea, I know. I was being sarcastic though. All those old people might have the best perspective of all. They've seen changes first-hand . They can compare the eras.
ffs 06.24.16	great day for memes though
bakkermaarten007 06.24.16	How dare people question the empire! It's madness!!!
InfamousGrouse 06.24.16	Alright, I'm with you now; I tend to use that term outwith its sociological context.
zakalwe 06.24.16	Yeah righto Key. A white family of bakers in a small town where an Asian family moves next door and a curry house pops up in the High Street isn't the same sort of thing.
PurpleDino 06.24.16	"what a miserable day for humanity" the hyperbole is real
Keyblade 06.24.16	"Yeah righto Key. A white family of bakers in a small town where an Asian family moves next door and a curry house pops up in the High Street isn't the same sort of thing." yea man, the audacity of these ppl opening up businesses in a capitalist society
Willie 06.24.16	Everything will be fine. The value of the pound was going to fall with separation from the EU. That was inevitable and shouldn't be anything to worry about. As the change becomes the norm, the pound will rise. Besides, being part of the EU doesn't ensure financial stability or a great economy (look at Greece). Effectively, all that England has done is put themselves back in charge of their own affairs. Also, there is a lot of shit going on in the world and a lot of it is tied to religion and race. A little fear is okay as long as it leads to vigilance and not vigilantes.
zakalwe 06.24.16	The UK being fractured to fuck isn't the greatest. Next people on the agenda to blame? The scots! Fuck you grouse me man!!!
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	'dude didn't u know that as soon as you post in a political thread you're ENGAGED IN THE CONVERSATION AND MUST ARGUE YR POINT TO THE DEATH' He(she?/it?) doesn't discuss any topic, just keeps dodging your arguments, fucking thanking people when they agree and hurls walls of text untill you're just fucking done. Also lies whenever it works out well.
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	I do hope so bad the EU is gonna nuke Britain's economy, making sure this won't be a precedent, make living and work visas from Britain to mainland Europe easier to obtain for a year or 4, then shut it down completely. We get a lot of young educated working individuals, the UK is left with scared-ass populist retards and demented elderly.
Voivod 06.24.16	--Everything will be fine. --Effectively, all that England has done is put themselves back in charge of their own affairs. That's not a black or white issue, I'm afraid http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-referendum-look-before-you-leap-norways-pm-tells-brexiteers/ --Besides, being part of the EU doesn't ensure financial stability or a great economy (look at Greece) The insurmountable problems of the Greek economy, have little to do with the EU, rather they are related with malignant modi operandi inherent to the majority of political parties and in effect, Greek people. That's not to say though, that the EU does not need to become more efficient at all counts.
zakalwe 06.24.16	It needs to become accountable. Something it will never, ever do. Italy is on the verge of a banking crisis, other European nations are voicing their discontent. The UK has caused Brussles to look at themselves. Have some of that ya tyrannical bastards!!!!
Willie 06.24.16	--That's not a black or white issue, I'm afraid http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-referendum-look-before-you-leap-norways-pm-tells-brexiteers/-- Of course not. There's going to be some issues, but the country will right itself. It will happen. That is pretty much a certainty. A lot of the other countries that are getting involved in England's politics have a personal interest in maintaining the EU's power. Like the original post stated, there's a lot of 'worst case scenario' and straight up fear-mongering going on with both sides of the issue. -- The insurmountable problems of the Greek economy, have little to do with the EU, rather they are related with malignant modi operandi inherent to the majority of political parties and in effect, Greek people.-- True, and I'm glad you said that. It only goes to further prove that the fall of the pound is nothing to worry about because with or without the EU, England was going to be the main controller of its own economy. Basically, people shouldn't worry too much or think that England can't get its own shit straight without the EU.
Madbutcher3 06.24.16	not sure how the eu isn't accountable considering the unelected portions of it have very little power and the elected portions are elected in a method much more representative than our own shitty plurality system
Voivod 06.24.16	--there is a lack of aspiration amongst young people, simply because there just aren't any opportunities for work here, all the entry level jobs are not advertised for the unskilled local workers, they ARE given to EU workers instead. And yet the majority of people between 18 and 44 years old voted for "Remain" http://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/746323670570831873?s=02
RadicalEd 06.24.16	"Of course not. There's going to be some issues, but the country will right itself. It will happen. That is pretty much a certainty." Wow. The gift of foresight. Must be nice. "True, and I'm glad you said that. It only goes to further prove that the fall of the pound is nothing to worry about because with or without the EU, England was going to be the main controller of its own economy. Basically, people shouldn't worry too much or think that England can't get its own shit straight without the EU." Very few people act like England is goin to be a third world country in 15 years, but the economy will take a giant hit and that is the almost unilateral consensus amongst economists (and no, not just the ones who have a vested interest in the UK staying), if the scots (the prime minister is already openly considering a second referendum) leave the UK it will also loose a good chunk of people which in turn will weaken their economy further.
Madbutcher3 06.24.16	the uk won't suddenly collapse but there's basically no way that we'll come out better
Tunaboy45 06.24.16	what a colossal fuck up this has been, I hope those who voted leave are happy with themselves
Voivod 06.24.16	--Basically, people shouldn't worry too much or think that England can't get its own shit straight without the EU. True, but it's more than likely that the EU will tax every English export headed to the EU (50% of UK exports, that is), the magnitude of that cost won't go unaccounted for by English companies. Also, if Brits still want to do business with the EU, they will have to comply with EU regulations anyway, so in a way, they will still be within the EU haha.
zakalwe 06.24.16	Them 73% of voters aged 18-24 wanting to remain just reeks of people not knowing any different.
AngryJohnny 06.24.16	The EU is going to make an example of us as a deterrent to other European nations considering referendums of their own. No access to the single market is a real possibility going forward. It will take us decades not years to renegotiate trade deals with all the countries we need to. Basically this is almost certainly a colossal self inflicted mistake of historic proportions.
zakalwe 06.24.16	Have some toilet paper to wipe your arse pal. 72 quid a roll.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	...but the 73% (obviously I don't know the actual figures) of voters aged 60+ wanting out screams of a revenge vote against perceived injustices and the "f'ck it I'm going to pop my clogs soon and can batten down the hatches in the house I already own and paid off the mortgage of, I wasn't getting any interest on my savings anyway, humph humph, at least there might be less darkies about" attitude
Conmaniac 06.24.16	wait so the UK is leaving?? damn this is huge isnt it?
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	could be huge, only time will tell
Conmaniac 06.24.16	i have no concept of UK politics so idk if this is a good or a bad thing. obv time will tell because no one can really predict what will happen but what could happen?
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	a huge recession the potential of the UK falling apart the very very small chance of London somehow identifying itself in terms of trade outside of the rest of England the potential of the EU eventually falling apart as other nations do the same less friendly relations between EU states UK citizens choosing to holiday less in EU countries eradication of some EU policies in the UK so there could be longer working hours, worse workers rights and companies allowed to pollute more with less consequences erm, some good things, the Queen will be happy...well until Scotland vote to leave the UK but she'll probably be dead by then
Conmaniac 06.24.16	seems like ur a bit biased haha but yeah makes sense.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	what won't change? immigration will still be sky high Brits will still moan about politics but at least they'll just be moaning about the Tories and/or Labour politicians from now on
PurpleDino 06.24.16	people keep banging on about how the old have fucked it for the young - only 40% of 18-25 year olds voted in the first place with overall turnout at around 70% that says something about the state of political engagement in young people, and that most of them don't even think that this will affect their prospects either way
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	Also, Boris Johnson is on a roll - if Trump and Boris were both elected everyone get hyped for RugBowl
Conmaniac 06.24.16	same issue here in the states, 40% though is impressive to us though as I think we are lower than that for that age group
anarchistfish 06.24.16	"I tend to use that term outwith its sociological context." none of which bakker has ever read
zakalwe 06.24.16	Immigration will stem from people who are already in London outwards. In terms of new people coming in from Europe it's a message that we are not a roll over. The prominent issues are still there regardless of what the EU result was. Housing crisis Crumbling NHS Government interference in schools and public services. Jobs being outsourced Fuck London, I couldn't give a shit. Sorry doof xxxxx
torts 06.24.16	so confused on what this effects but shouts out britain I guess
zakalwe 06.24.16	40% of people aged 18-24 votes just about says it all. "Oooh everyone is racist and nasty. Yippie Europe is fab cos of things, I'm hopping down to Glasto for the weekend with dads credit card so won't be voting cos stress and things"
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Tragic day to be quite honest. Hope it was worth it to get that anti-establishment nut out. With any luck the EU will consolidate as a result of this and the UK, or what's left of it, will have to be the ones on the losing end of this deal. In the end we all lose still.
PurpleDino 06.24.16	hahaha it's almost definitely the dads credit card types that DID vote, poorest and most marginalised always least likely to vote
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Biggest upside is that hopefully your insane housing prices will go down. That is a dire need.
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Would also be pretty ok with London separating and becoming a city state but that won't happen.
zakalwe 06.24.16	The UK is a bastion of true democracy I'm proud. Shocked as fuck but proud!
BallsDeep 06.24.16	just flip a coin
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Bastion of regressive populism, but yeah, glad someone is enjoying it.
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Dr. Gonzo's list turned out to be some fortuitous nominative determinism I guess, lol.
PurpleDino 06.24.16	"Bastion of regressive populism" coming from a yank
LambsBread 06.24.16	You can tell that virtually none of you have any idea whatsoever what you're talking about and are just putting forth your Extremely biased and superficially informed opinions as fact. If you haven't studied economics and/or politics, maybe give it a rest. We're all capable of reading our own biased blogs without you regurgitating them. As someone who has actually studied this I can guarantee this is nothing but a short term reaction. If The UK is going to fall apart it's going to be do to their silly demagogic socialist programs. Being tied down to the giant socialist economy of the EU only made matters worse. This won't make a big difference except to people who had all their money invested in th stock market and are dumb enough to withdraw it before the market recovers in the next week. The problem is most of you read crackpot keynsian economists who think national debt isn't an issue, you're basically trying to interpret events without having the proper tools to do so, you're trying to read Italian but you know Spanish only. Trust me I've been right about every prediction I've made for the last four years since coming to this site. Y'all are too petty and arrogant to admit that, but it's true. I probably know more about international politics than the rest of the site combined. Take a look at who the next president of the United States will be. This event is the type of stuff plebes make a fuss about but it really isn't going to make a huge difference for anyone but a few British companies invested in the eu. In b4 "I'm smarter than him" "What? I have a Ph.D. in two political disciplines, why do you think they call me Dr?" "Well... Uh I just thought it was a name. Y'know like Dr. Dre..... East side!"
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	still love ya zak :D I'll admit part of me is excited at the result of the vote, it's a brave vote, and there will be significant change now and in all seriousness it won't all be bad I only defend London in terms of living there (well, in the burbs at least), I couldn't give all that much of a shite about the monarchy, the politicians, the money men or the snobs/hipsters
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Lambs, I have studied this. But I have a Political Science degree from a university so people don't want to hear from anything resembling the experts. So I'll just keep poking fun at you leavers instead. "coming from a yank" If I had it my way, we wouldn't be making the same mistakes you are, my Purple friend. Things are fucked, agreed, but this is not the way to deal with it, in my opinion.
PurpleDino 06.24.16	the EU is far from being a socialist economy man look at what the EU have done when countries elect socialist governments...
PurpleDino 06.24.16	the nationalist populism that is taking hold of western countries makes me feel uneasy but I don't think staying in the EU would make it any better
AngryJohnny 06.24.16	What do you think of this then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y Professor Michael Dougan (an expert on European Constitutional Law) who thinks that this will lead to a very complex and lengthy process of rewriting most of the UK's laws and trade agreements. Also the EU is not a 'socialist economy'. It has socially progressive elements but its main commitment is to the free market and economic liberalism. If you were really as highly educated as you claim I would have expected to you to know that, so I remain to be convinced of your superior wisdom.
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Surgery can be done without bleeding out in the process. I think the risk of that is far greater by abandoning the EU. Again, my opinion. I'm the first to admit that we don't know what will happen, but I think the risks are not worth the potential gains.
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Calling the EU a socialist economy is not only wrong, it's completely ridiculous. The EU is not an "economy." Nor is it anywhere near socialist.
PurpleDino 06.24.16	"Surgery can be done without bleeding out in the process" I would have liked to have thought so too, but the EU doesn't like surgery
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	'As someone who has actually studied this I can guarantee this is nothing but a short term reaction.' Every single other expert must be extremely dumb for not realizing this and saying they have no idea what's going to happen. So that's one, the second point of distrust is you blowing your trumpet as loud as you fucking can and shittalking people who voice their predictions. Get off mate.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	Great stats lol Of the 30 areas with: the most elderly people (27 out of 30 voted leave) the fewest graduates (28 out of 30 voted leave) the most people identifying as 'English' (30 out of 30 voted leave) So the vote was won by the senile/crotchety, uneducated and possibly xenophobic. Great stuff
p4p 06.24.16	"I probably know more about international politics than the rest of the site combined" lmao stop talking shit, i studied international relations and if you ask your friends who majored in international relations/politics they will tell you that leaving the EU will do more harm than good to the UK itself.
LambsBread 06.24.16	Literally the only people who think this will be bad are far-left socialists masquerading as moderates. Bout time someone stood up to these cultists
LambsBread 06.24.16	"Every single expert" you mean every single exper shoved in your face by front-capitalist news media. Not impressed
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	'You can tell that virtually none of you have any idea whatsoever what you're talking about and are just putting forth your Extremely biased and superficially informed opinions as fact.' 'Literally the only people who think this will be bad are far-left socialists masquerading as moderates.' 'Extremely biased' Do you do stand-up comedy? Because you're hilarious.
LambsBread 06.24.16	The EU is heavily socialist silly, how do you think they helped Greece out? Do you think they prayed or wished them well? Yes, believe it or not, the eu has an economy... omg
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	How you could possibly even attempt to argue that socialists were the ones supporting remain is beyond me. If anything, it's completely the opposite. The "elites" are fully capitalist at your expense. Free market capitalism is exactly what the leave campaign was voting against. Clearly you do not understand the the function of the EU is to promote free movement of labor and capital among its member states. How well it is doing that job is certainly up for debate. But calling it "socialist" is completely wrong, full stop.
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	'"Every single expert" you mean every single exper shoved in your face by front-capitalist news media. Not impressed' You must be the undiscovered true genius of economical science who will never be recognized in your time, but alas a true artist is never acknowledged in his life.
LambsBread 06.24.16	Yes you can call me names like children do in grade school but the fact is I'm vastly more educated on this topic than you and I can do more than mindlessly parrot a popular socialist hack.
LambsBread 06.24.16	Here are a number of economists saying this is neutral or a good thing, you haven't heard of any of them though because you are an incredibly close minded socialist
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Helping Greece was a socialist move? You're lost, my friend. The EU doesn't have an economy. It is not a state in and of itself despite what old Nigel would lead you to believe. The EU is an open market supporting the free movement of labor and capital. Again, how well it does this job is up for debate, but you are grossly misunderstanding the nature of the EU as an institution if you drink that kool aid.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	the gloves are off
torts 06.24.16	aren't you that hip hop nerd that no one likes lmao
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	"you are an incredibly close minded socialist" Name calling, a bit of pot calling the kettle black and all that. I don't know why I am bothering with you considering you don't even begin to understand the EU nor the basic definition of socialism.
Krvst 06.24.16	Confirmed: LambsBread doesn't understand politics
LambsBread 06.24.16	part of the EU was concerned with promoting free trade, the other part is a socialist scheme designed to get large-producing countries to subsidize small countries. Free trade can exist without an international government.
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	I might stay inside drinking distilled water to avoid all the chem trails and fluoride too if I were you, Lambs.
LambsBread 06.24.16	Confirmed: lambsbread knows more about politics than your entire family tree you are just too ignorant to know it
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Yeah I forgot to mention the fine print - the EU is an Illuminati scheme designed to take your money and give it to lazy Greeks. Sorry about that.
Krvst 06.24.16	*grabs tinfoil hat
LambsBread 06.24.16	Killer strawman argument That would be a Great burn if I actually said those things As it is it's just dimwitted though
LambsBread 06.24.16	Look honey the children are resorting to strawmanning memes again
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	"part of the EU was concerned with promoting free trade, the other part is a socialist scheme" The degree to which these concepts contrast is so absurd that you should really ask for your money back from whatever institution gave you a degree, should you actually have one.
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	"ignorant, you're just ignorant" damn I miss MJ
LambsBread 06.24.16	LOL this highly educated dude thinks he knows politics LMFAO HOW CAN YOU kNOW POLITICAL stuff when you believe aliens exist am I right? Checkmate
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Now you're just trolling buddy.
DinosaurJones 06.24.16	Someone on this site needs to make an alt called Strawman. Because holy fuck, do I see that a lot.
LambsBread 06.24.16	You can promote free trade and still have socialist fromt-capitalist schemes. But by all means keep talking down to someone who is qualified to teach your ignorant self on this topic, good look
AngryJohnny 06.24.16	guys stop engaging with this guy. He's either the most arrogant person in existence or a troll. There really is no point continuing. I'm 95% sure he does not have a degree unless he printed it off the internet.
LambsBread 06.24.16	Not sure how eliminating tariffs precludes the possibility of bailing out Greece. Please explain this to me with your impressive blog education
DoofusWainwright 06.24.16	Sweet irony of a user called AngryJohnny being the least angry person in the thread
DinosaurJones 06.24.16	On the other hand, this is better than bakker and chuck arguing.
LambsBread 06.24.16	You tend to come across as arrogant when talking to a group of arrogant/stubborn people who you're qualified to teach http://youtu.be/2sTdv-WubZA But by all means, keep accusing anyone who doesn't think the sky is falling because of a simple governmental shift is wearing a tin foil hat. That tin foil hat argument is just so strong.
AngryJohnny 06.24.16	haha I'll take that as a compliment. Off, in further twist of irony, to finish writing blog on referendum result. I'm sure this will amuse our friend no end. See y'all
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Every time Lambs calls me arrogant, I'll take it as a compliment. Keep on keeping on, professor. I'm perfectly happy with my education. However it comes from a real, elite university so I'm sure you are not interested.
Spacesh1p 06.24.16	Good guy Johnny stealing my thunder.
Conmaniac 06.24.16	LambsBread just by saying "oh I have a PhD so im smarter than you all" doesnt mean you're right. plenty of people with a PhD in poli sci have made really fucking dumb comments about shit like this. props to Spacesh1p for properly arguing against your bullshit arguments
p4p 06.24.16	stop using welfare state as a synonym for socialism. damn yanks and their own distorted definitions
LambsBread 06.24.16	I haven't actually heard a valid reason WHY the sky is going to fall in the UK All I have heard is people saying "omg the English are idiots, this is a disaster (lists a bunch of short term issues that were obviously going to happen in any major shift)" I have no idea in what sense you are using the term "economy" if you are going to say "the EU doesn't have an economy". I understand the EU doesn't have the type of control over the EU's economy that the US does over the US, that's not the point. The point is smaller countries get a free ride while bigger countries foot most of the bill. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is something you learn in political science 101, it's the nature of federations.
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	'I haven't actually heard a valid reason WHY the sky is going to fall in the UK' You wouldn't need to, you studied this right? RIGHT?
zaruyache 06.24.16	They just lost billions from their economy and their currency is tanking... maybe not a "sky falling" crisis but those clouds are at least looking pretty nasty.
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	'Confirmed: lambsbread knows more about politics than your entire family tree you are just too ignorant to know it' c':
Cryptkeeper 06.24.16	I'M SMART, YOU'RE JUST BEING IGNORANT.
LambsBread 06.24.16	"They just lost billions from their economy and their currency is tanking... maybe not a "sky falling" crisis but those clouds are at least looking pretty nasty." But you are focusing solely on short-term consequences when this was obviously a long-term is more important than short-term solution to leave EU. Let's not forget the EU is an absolute mess. Sketchy countries are beginning to join, immigration can't be controlled, irresponsible behavior like Greece's is incentivized. Leaving the EU is destroying to rebuild, you can't look at only short-term consequences.
Keyblade 06.24.16	https://twitter.com/GoogleTrends/status/746303118820937728/photo/1 lol
zakalwe 06.24.16	^ That'll be them 18-24yr olds again
LambsBread 06.24.16	https://youtu.be/ZJJZLwkcEhU?t=2m48s Listen to those disgusting poll numbers... It's very telling that the mainstream media is trying to spin this as nothing but an economic issue. British Muslims want to take the country back 1,000 years. I can't imagine any sort of economic crisis that would be worse than unlimited Muslim immigration to UK... the entire concepts of minority rights, secularism and tolerance would be lost. You can't put a price on institutions that millions of people died defending/building.
Keyblade 06.24.16	"the entire concepts of minority rights" delicious irony right here
Willie 06.24.16	List is going to be locked due to the sheer size of the comments section. Feel free to re-start on a new list...

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