BallsDeep: Is learning musical theory crucial to songwriting?

BallsDeep 11.28.15	somebody? anybody?
OZZGabriel 11.28.15	You can listen to what music you like, see what you want to sound like and then try and break down songs to figure out how they work. I guess it's a 'trial by error' thing (so you have to write some bad songs first, hehe).
Friday13th 11.28.15	Some people just "have an ear" for it, and you can't learn how to write good melodies. You just do it. My experience has been the more I learned the better my songs became, though. My advise is to learn about all the stuff you just mentioned, but to keep playing the kind of music you like. See what your favorite artists do. Then you'll know the rules AND how you want to break them.
grindcorecore 11.28.15	get some better neurological pathways mate
DanielNightLewis 11.28.15	Writing anything; music, stories, essays. It all takes practice, the more you write the more you will find your own style- theory can help provide a foundation for writing but isn't really something that should be taken as mandatory to be adhered to.
theBoneyKing 11.28.15	Straight up no.
Dunwich 11.28.15	Billy Corgan knows fuck all about music theory. He rules!
torts 11.28.15	adequate neurological pathways [infinity]
treeqt. 11.28.15	u can't not learn music theory when songwriting
SharkTooth 11.28.15	I used to play piano and goddamn I hated musical theory Also no it's not. Many ragtime players from back in the day didn't know the first thing about musical theory or even sheet music but they still managed to create technically marvelous compositions Basically is really more of a matter of practice and love for doing what you do than any understanding of theory
treeqt. 11.28.15	you don't understand it's phyiscally impossible to not learn music theory while songwriting
Friday13th 11.28.15	Part of the problem is people think learning musical theory is like a schoolmaster that will beat you into submission, whereas before you were all freebird. It's just an awareness of what's actually going on. You can still just pick up a guitar and start playing whatever, but then you can analyze it through the theoretical lens. You might discover some sweet patterns you would have never noticed. You might even free yourself from repetitive lameness you never noticed. Basically, if you're a good songwriter you're a good songwriter. You can't learn how to do it, but in my experience theory only helped me get better. The amount of trial/error time decreases once you know stuff like "I want this to sound epic at the expense of sounding corny...end on the fifth!"
Zig 11.28.15	Of course. Unless, you just want to write songs with major and minor chords, and singing while playing guitar. Things like 'twelve tone technique' truly increases the capability to compose 'out-a-box' stuff. About guitar tech, I just know blues and jazz links, I'm more focused on improvisational skills and unconventional stuff.
Friday13th 11.28.15	@Ziguvan omigosh, yes! I remember the day I heard about the twelve-tone technique it blew my mind. I still only know the jist, but just the summary was enough to send me to my piano and come up with sick stuff. Schoenberg's da man.
BallsDeep 11.28.15	I can see why some might say it kills creativity - since in my mind it basically infers that there is a 'right' and 'wrong' approach to songwriting at least in technical terms. I'm thinking i'll learn a few scales and new chords and leave reading and writing music to the side for now. Hendrix, van halen, dimebag etc apparently couldn't read or write music and it didn't exactly hold them back. I'm not sure how necessary understanding time signatures is either unless since i cant see myself creating 20 minute prog metal epics anytime soon.
Friday13th 11.28.15	"I'm not sure how necessary understanding time signatures is either unless since i cant see myself creating 20 minute prog metal epics anytime soon." There lies your problem ;] It's not about a right or a wrong way. If you played a sour grunge note or you play a lullaby it all can be explained the further you go. I think people start with like the major and minor scales and think it's forcing you to play that. Wrong. It's meant to explain and nothing else.
Relinquished 11.28.15	songstructuring
Zig 11.28.15	@BallsDeep: there's no wrong or right approach in music, everything can be used as music, if you stuck into those musical formulas, it will be really hard to devolve your own sound. To be honest, 'entire 4/4 time signature songs' is one of those things I'm trying to avoid. @Friday13th: I've been studying atonal music, sounds so weird and so awesome on guitar. Schoenberg and Webern rules! Their String Quartet pieces are amazing.
altertide0 11.28.15	It depends on whether you want to be a Zappa or a Beefheart.
deathschool 11.28.15	"It depends on whether you want to be a Zappa or a Beefheart." No it doesn't.
Friday13th 11.28.15	@Ziguvan Awesome dude, we could chat music all day. Yeah, I've heard some of the string quartets. My personal style is more indebted to say Debussy or Beethoven in terms of classical, but I have dabbled into at least what I envision atonal sounding like. I'm not a great player, though. I'm an okay piano, guitar and bass player, but I couldn't rip a good solo.
Zig 11.28.15	"to be a Zappa" sounds more tempting.
Friday13th 11.28.15	@altertide didn't they both know their shit? I know Zappa was nuts into Stravinsky and other 20th century composers, and every nutty twist of Trout Mask Replica was intentionally composed.
deathschool 11.28.15	I feel like he only said that because Beefheart doesn't follow conventional rhythm, but rhythm is picked up naturally by teaching yourself. Yes, it technically falls under music theory, but you'll teach it to yourself without knowing anything about theory. It's the most natural thing in music. If the rhythm is off, it's the first thing you'll correct, even before you realize that no one is playing in the same key.
deathschool 11.28.15	It doesn't kill creativity, but it can make you look at making music differently. Depending on what you want to do, taking the long way may be more appropriate. Overcoming those roadblocks yourself can make you look at how you write music in a different light.
Archael 11.28.15	Theory suppliments creativity, and even highlights your own shortcomings.
Friday13th 11.28.15	"Don't listen to people who say it kills creativity that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard." What Jac said. It's the same as saying learning how to shred will kill your songwriting. I've decided I don't want to be a skilled guitar player, but not because I don't think it could help. Even if it came to me hating everything about guitar solos it would still not damage one iota of anything.
Zig 11.28.15	@Friday13th: Great, dude, nice to see some classical influences. Can't say the same, I only play the guitar, I know the basics on bass or mandolin or piano; my style is Zappa-influenced with a little of John Zorn and John Cage. Think I'm good at improvise, but composing music is really hard for me, I didn't have a formal musical education. But, dude, Mozart was also a okay piano :D
deathschool 11.28.15	I know you weren't singling me out Jac, but I still stand behind what I said. I think with the kind of music I assume that you want to create, (studying) music theory will only get you to the end goal faster. I don't necessarily feel that it's the same for all types of music though. There may just be a disagreement there. I don't mind.
Greyvy 11.28.15	it's phyiscally impossible to not learn music theory while songwriting [2] making music without knowledge of music theory doesnt mean you arent learning it or using it. everything you play on an instrument falls into music theory in some way. its pretty simple
deathschool 11.28.15	I don't disagree with tree or Greyvy, however I think there is a difference between studying the fundamentals of music theory before or while learning an instrument and just teaching yourself. That's really what the original question was going after, I think.
Friday13th 11.28.15	@Ziguvan Nice, well hey a variety is always needed. Music is all about collaboration. I know a lot of talented players, but unfortunately none of them share my musical interests. I did take piano lessons for a while, but most of the theory I learned was actually self-taught. Reading about classical composers, playing modern music on the piano. The internet was my teacher :D
MyNameIsPencil 11.28.15	I think all of you are right in your own ways :]
deathschool 11.28.15	I'm just surprised this generated as much discussion as it has.
Archael 11.28.15	About mom theory: Yes
altertide0 11.28.15	About "It depends on whether you want to be a Zappa or a Beefheart." I said that because Zappa was a technically trained composer who could properly write as well as conduct, while Beefheart, from what I've learned from wikipedia and various interviews, didn't know a thing about writing music: that is, he didn't have any technical training, composed everything by ear and basically just played what sounded good to him.
Beardog 11.28.15	I think I'm pretty good without theory, although I really know nothing. I probably have some chord switches or 'out-of-the-box' stuff without even realizing it. You don't really need it but it will help you
SCREAM! 11.28.15	Crucial, no. But anyone who says it isn't important/a huge help is straight kidding themselves.
chemicalmarriage 11.28.15	fuck theory just make ambient music
Friday13th 11.28.15	@altertide0 sounds about right. Just thought Trout Mask must have been written down, but that doesn't necessarily mean he had much theory knowledge.
anarchistfish 11.28.15	if you wanna be a good songwriter then yeah
rockandmetaljunkie 11.30.15	It's not that important. Look at Jimi Hendrix, the things he did. He knew nothing about music theory and yet he did what he did. And so did many other artists who had zero knowledge about music theory. But of course, you need to know the basics. If you want to be able to read the "language" of the music and understand what the hell you're playing. My teacher used to tell me that there are two methods of learning an instrument. The first is the academic method, where are you are learning to read music and understanding the "rules". The second is the practical method, in which you're learning to play simple songs. Which method you will choose is up to you. The practical method is funnier, that's for sure. But I think you might be able to become a better songwriter if you're trained academically. It's important to keep in mind that learning music theory is not vital. It might help you to improve your guitar skills but it will not make you a better songwriter. At the end of the day, it is all a matter of perspective, but i think that when it comes to composing music, it's all about talent; your natural ability to do something.
TheSonomaDude 11.30.15	Nope [57]
ZombicidalMan 11.30.15	all the theory you need usually comes naturally over the years - and anything you feel can be useful can be learned at any time. Don't write off theory completely, but don't rely on it, either. Some of the most creative and brilliant music has come from the ears and hands of average joes
TheSonomaDude 12.01.15	I signed up for music theory just so I could learn how to count time signatures and I ended up doing that on my own just a few days into the course
Deathconscious 12.01.15	"Is learning musical theory crucial to songwriting?" obviously not, a lot of people do it. a lot of really good artists even. take Neurosis, Scott Kelly doesnt know shit about any of that shit but he still makes brilliant compositions.
TheSonomaDude 12.01.15	Chuck Schuldiner just picked up the guitar one day. Well okay maybe not that simple, but he was almost entirely self taught
SCREAM! 12.01.15	Being self taught doesn't mean he didn't know his theory. You can self teach theory you know
AnimalsAsSummit 12.01.15	no. i know very little theory and usually don't consciously apply what i do know when making music. like others said, it can be constraining.
MO 12.01.15	it definitely helps. my band play a lot of funky time signatures and mapping that shit out on the computer can be brutal without my guitarists knowing a bit of theory. that being said not all of us know theory and we all contribute so
JS19 12.01.15	No, but holy fuck it changes everything when you do
BallsDeep 12.02.15	Yeah so i figured ill learn the basics including time signatures since it can only help not hinder and I've got too much time on my hands as it is and have realized that what i thought about it killing creativity is bullshit since understanding it may open my mind to different approaches to writing music.