Alastor
10.16.15 | poor Mustaine |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | My logic is usually to listen to the music without buying so they don't get any financial support and I get to enjoy the music for what it is but since I bought a few Burzum records I guess that doesn't work anymore
eh |
Valkyrion
10.16.15 | who cares |
Alastor
10.16.15 | I'd feel more guilty buying a ke$ha record than anything by burzum |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | Can't say I really feel guilty about it. Varg is an old washed up fart at this point so the worst that money will do is probably buy him a coffee while he writes another lolworthy blog entry |
Madbutcher3
10.16.15 | i mean burzum is one i don't especially care about and mustaine is at least pretty reserved with his offensiveness these days. the former two I'm less sure of tho |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "They're people. People are different, have different views, have the right to hold those views."
They have the right but that doesn't mean you have to agree or support them.
Taking an extreme example for illustration purposes: Would it feel right to buy one of Hitler's paintings knowing he would funnel that money back into war and genocide? |
HenchmanOfSanta
10.16.15 | Bands don't profit from my listening, so I don't really run into that problem. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | Like I said it's an extreme example. However, they could still be sending that money to extreme right wing political groups for example. And you can't really know whether they physically/verbally oppress anyone without actually being there. There isn't really an extreme metal paparazzi to keep track of that sort of thing |
ZippaThaRippa
10.16.15 | Wait what's wrong with Malevolent Creation? I thought they were a regular DM band |
Alastor
10.16.15 | buying is voting for something to be made. so not thinking at all about what or from whom to buy is quite apathetic. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "I mean legit who gives a fuck who you're funding when you buy stuff. Do you legitimately think that in-depth about who you give your money to? Critically research every store you buy in, who their employees are, who runs the companies, if their world views are so perfectly in line with yours that it's okay to buy from them?"
No but when someone makes it so obvious that you don't even need to research that kind of says something about them |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "their personal views have no say in it, unless they're an NSBM band or something."
That's sort of more what I'm referring to.
"might say they don't hide their views. who cares?"
Exactly. The fact that they feel strongly and proudly enough about these views to be so forthcoming about them says a lot. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | You're going way too deep into this with that wheelbarrow thing man |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "no more than someone who's really outspoken about gay rights or something."
One is fighting for oppression, the other is fighting for human rights. How are these the same to you?
"everyone is entitled to hold their views and be as private or open about them as possible."
And then they have to face the reactions and consequences of their actions/statements. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | We're not talking about labels though we're discussing specific bands, specifically nsbm type bands.
So if someone tried to sell me a wheelbarrow with a swastika on it, I prob wouldn't buy it |
Flugmorph
10.16.15 | [Thread closed] |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "Both sides should have the right to be as open about their views as possible, no matter who agrees or disagrees with them. "
They do have that right though. If they didn't they'd all be fugitives/in jail. Which means " I never said that free speech means freedom of consequence." is kind of exactly what you are advocating. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "Well when you buy a Malevolent Creation CD you'd probably buy it from a label or distributor. It's possible you'd buy it directly from the band, but not as common. "
You can support other bands from the same label though. The label just distributes what they think will bring in profits (especially bigger ones like Relapse).
"And the discussion was never solely about bands that use their music as a vehicle for hate. The discussion was about bands having members who are, quoting OP, "scumbags". "
Yeah, I guess I took it along a tangent without specifying. When the music doesn't advocate the views, it is easier to draw a separation between supporting the music vs supporting the views (Malevolent Creation and Burzum fall into this). However, when a band builds their image/brand around them (NSBM), that's trickier as the views are ingrained into the music and you can't really support one without somewhat supporting the other. |
Piglet
10.16.15 | Who is NSBM might I ask? |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "But if it's solely because the person's just a dick and a homophobe or something it's just like yeah you care way too much."
Eh I guess it's sort of a tit for tat thing. Like you wanna be a dick to a whole group of people, I'll be a dick back and not pay for your album. I can understand the sentiment, however if I really like the album (Burzum for ex), I'll still get it.
@ Piglet National socialist black metal |
Piglet
10.16.15 | ah righto
But yeah so long as the band's views don't translate into causing unnecessary harm and that was stimulated by the fan base, there's no problemon. |
Calc
10.16.15 | burzum sucks so it's not that hard to not listen to him but something like lostprophets where I was listening to them long before the dude was raping babies, I found out that i can still listen to them when they come up on my shuffle and not get too bent out of shape about it.
so i guess if i know something about a band before I start listening to them then I steer clear, but if I like them already I just say fuk it. there's so much music out there anyways why settle for something for any reason at all. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "The former, obviously. The latter would only make you want to spite the vegans more, since they're perpetuating hate towards you for your choice."
Yeah, but by being a homophobe/racist and making homophobic/racist comments, you are already doing what vegan group #2 (perpetuating hate) are doing and shouldn't be surprised when people react to it and defend themselves. |
Piglet
10.16.15 | "I believe respect and general amiability will work in favour of everyone, as opposed to perpetuating hate."
You've always come across as a bit head-strong snox, I'm genuinely surprised at you saying that. |
Gyromania
10.16.15 | "burzum sucks so it's not that hard to not listen to him but something like lostprophets where I was listening to them long before the dude was raping babies, I found out that i can still listen to them when they come up on my shuffle and not get too bent out of shape about it."
you and i are in the minority on this one. ian watkins is a disgusting piece of dogshit who deserves to be locked away, but it doesn't change how i enjoy lostprophets' music. and i mean, it's okay for varg to be racist and commit hate crimes and murder and be an arsonist. people pick and choose when it comes to perceived morality |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | You make a fair point. Although personally, I don't see not buying an album as "equal hostility". It's more passive-aggressive than purely aggressive like attacking someone physically /verbally is |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | When you buy a lostprophets album you are supporting 3-4 guys that are perfectly fine and 1 who is a criminal asshole so that isn't a fair example imo. Also, since he's in jail, it's not like he can cause much harm anyway |
Piglet
10.16.15 | this whole time i thought you were a cynical bastard but now i know you're actually a compassionate cynical bastard |
Gyromania
10.16.15 | yeah buying lostprohet merch and records isn't endorsing that kind of sick behavior, plus it's a BAND, like you said. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | "A recent example for me is the guitarist from Goatlord who killed a woman and child. Goatlord were and still are one of my favourite bands, and the incident hasn't changed that, no matter how horrible it was."
See, I'd have less issues supporting them than an NSBM band. The member is dead, he can't cause any more harm now. Whereas NSBM bands are alive and active and could be using your support to further push their ideologies/oppress people. |
dbizzles
10.16.15 | A pirate's life for me. |
zaruyache
10.16.15 | I really like how you lumped Mustaine in with white supremacists and a murderer. Tee hee. |
beefshoes
10.16.15 | Yeah, Mustaine isn't any worse than Mike Huckabee. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | Also, for the record, it isn't completely black and white for me either. I mean, if you read Forteresse lyrics, it's easy to pick out some pretty nationalist leanings (assuming you understand french). But I still bought Metal Noir Quebecois (on vinyl no less) because it's one of my favourite recent BM albums. So I guess the whole views thing is more one of many factors that plays into my decision rather than a complete make or break thing. Depends on how much I like the band and how far they take the ideology into the music |
Piglet
10.16.15 | mustaine is just a clown that forgot to put his costume on |
sumyunguy
10.16.15 | I like to listen to Charlie Manson's minimal classical music recordings and have a few John Wayne Gacy paintings on my walls. Doesn't mean I condone what they have done (in regards to their views on politics). |
ZippaThaRippa
10.16.15 | Mustaine wouldn't play a show with Rotting Christ because he was offended by name. Classic Dave. |
Kubrick
10.16.15 | "So the major point there was: even if they're being complete disrespectful wankbags, treating them in the same manner isn't going to solve anything. It will continue the cyclistic hate."
How is that relevant to the conversation? The whole discussion is about supporting artists vs. not supporting them.. it has nothing to do with reciprocating hate back at an artist. Obviously actively reciprocating hate against people is wrong, it kind of goes without saying.
And I think the word you're looking for there is "cyclical." |
Gyromania
10.16.15 | yeah man, the discussion has followed many tangents now. i mean most conversations are tangential, and besides it's still relevant to the main topic |
basikchanL
10.16.15 | "If you just treat people like people and don't hold this shit against them, they're more likely to react positively and amicably in the future. It's common sense."
i agree with snox. i think that when we reflect on our own values, we become restrained by contingent dogmatic assumptions; we act as "immature" people, not as free humans who dwell in the dimension of reason. this doesn't necessarily mean we should disregard our values, we can be proud of them, but the fact remains that they are ultimately irrelevant. we should act as though there is no christian nor jew, gay nor straight, etc., rather than being hostile to those whom we dont align with (social, spirituality, politically, etc). |
Mystletainn
10.16.15 | People pushing their ideals and beliefs on others is way too common nowadays and I agree it needs to stop because it's just a cycle of segregation and hate. |
Gyromania
10.16.15 | i think it's great that people are forcing their ideals onto others. most people don't deserve to have opinions. long live segregation and hate. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | Nice slab of incoherent rambling there basikchan
Again looking a little too deeply into it sl3igher man. Sure you can never know for sure it won't be but when someone is in your face about it that sort of gives you a hint |
bach
10.16.15 | just listen to what you wanna listen to and try not to let the artist's fundamentals interfere with the art itself. |
Piglet
10.16.15 | It is so easy to find yourself harbouring and foisting segregationist attitudes when you hold values dear, but some values are simply worth it. Just consider being pacifistic in the face of someone that doesn't value universal human rights, someone who enjoys watching children being tortured. It's not appropriate to discard your moral intuitions there just because it may breed conflict. In fact, conflict would probably be ethically justified in such a case. So there's a whole spectrum to consider.
But yes, there is a lot of hate and segregation that could easily be avoided if we were truly rational human beings and that is the ideal to strive for. |
SCREAM!
10.16.15 | @bach I think most people here will agree. The thread has turned more into a whether you agree with buying their albums/merch and this giving them financial support |
basikchanL
10.16.15 | there is, of course, an extent to which we should hold values/morals, but they are ultimately irrelevant. |
worthlessscab
10.16.15 | it's irrelevant, it's not like they have the power to do anything |
worthlessscab
10.16.15 | won't be anything out of the ordinary |
climactic
10.16.15 | interesting topic and discussion. i'd probably draw the line (for financially supporting a band) at whether the artist is actually acting upon their intolerant beliefs, violence and harassment and whatnot. i'd rather not give money to individuals who are actively causing harm to others. as far as i know, arghoslent and burzum merely advocate their shitty views, not actually act upon it. so i will continue to jam. i dont know if anyone said this already, i only read through like half the thread |
worthlessscab
10.16.15 | @Sl3igHer Why? It makes you feel good?
@climactic That's a reasonable position. I'd still listen to their work if I like it, I just wouldn't pay for it. |
climactic
10.16.15 | -edit- |
Madbutcher3
10.16.15 | my main issue with what snox appears to be saying is that he is making an "eye for an eye is bad" argument when what I am doing is not slandering a band on their twitter or something for racist beliefs but instead questioning listening to their music in a way that provides monetary benefit for them. I never steal music personally so I would not commit theft towards them - instead of harming their profits directly I am simply not providing them capital.
I agree that saying hateful things in response to them is a bad idea, but acting in a way that is 100% neutral to their positions instead of supporting them is not something which you can treat as an equivalent. Additionally Snox, you derailed the conversation in this direction largely on your own with your "intolerance met with intolerance" point, which is quite a misunderstanding in itself (intolerance implies not allowing the continued existence of something in a certain state, whereas what one would do in this context would literally just be to ignore a band due to how they act).
I agree that we shouldn't devalue the art itself, but should we actively support bands that propagate intolerant values that make good art? Once a band is inactive or their members are dead I can see no issue with it as you can no longer support their intolerance by proxy through support for their music. Whilst they are alive I would question it.
I can largely agree with worthlessscab's view but as I said I don't steal music so I never find myself in that actual circumstance. |
worthlessscab
10.16.15 | "I never steal music personally so I would not commit theft towards them - instead of harming their profits directly I am simply not providing them capital." Dude, copying their music makes no difference if you were never going to buy it. |
ZippaThaRippa
10.16.15 | Modern metal is born of a desire to be controversial and offensive. When the first death metal bands stepped onto the scene they created a sound that they knew most people would find unlistenable. They combined that sound with grisly imagery and lyrics that shocked and confounded the uninitiated. Bands like Immolation and Deicide pushed into the realms of anti-christianity and satanism. Likewise Marduk and Cradle of Filth pushed the boundaries of obscenity with slogans like "fuck me jesus" and "Jesus was a cunt." Other bands like Cannibal Corpse spewed vile lyrics that were often intensely misogynistic and grotesque. It seems to me like all manner of grotesquerie is acceptable until you start targeting minority groups and then suddenly you've crossed a line and fans start getting squeamish. Is Grand Belial's Key blatant anti-semitism really that much more shocking than the anti-christian attitudes of Immolation? Are Arghoslent's racially oppressive views really so much worse than the rampant misogyny found elsewhere in extreme metal? No one blinks an eye at bands like Shining who openly encourage their fans to commit suicide. But hey, you called your drummer a faggot, can't get any worse than that.
Anyways. Dave Mustaine sucks. |
Epilogue
10.16.15 |
I h8 death gripz be cuz they r trollz |
Madbutcher3
10.16.15 | Well, to be fair, offensive content in music isn't necessarily representative of the band member's views. And tbh yes, targetting minorities is probably worse than targetting christianity and so on. However I agree that misogyny in almost all forms of music is pretty deplorable and it's one of the worst aspects of many death metal bands. No real way to escape that one.
However, the Shining example is probably less troublesome than the others. They have an unpleasant message, sure, but it's something indiscriminate and something that can only be self inflicted. |
worthlessscab
10.16.15 | ? do you even metal |
hikingmetalpunk
10.17.15 | keep flogging m/ |
ZippaThaRippa
10.17.15 | But that's my point, why is being anti-christian acceptable and being anti-semitic unacceptable? |
HenchmanOfSanta
10.17.15 | Because Jews are an ethnic group as well as a religious minority. We also kind of went through some shit within the last century. |
Asdfp277
10.17.15 | cuz in one u usually hate the ideology, in the other u hate the people |
HenchmanOfSanta
10.17.15 | Like do people think that the Holocaust was about religious persecution? |
worthlessscab
10.17.15 | it's all about the hate and keeping it real |
ZippaThaRippa
10.17.15 | Oh let's not go there |
MistaCrave
10.17.15 | You actually like the new Malevolent Creation? That album sucks so bad. |
Asdfp277
10.17.15 | hating bigots is even realer / funnier, they get so butthurt lmao |
worthlessscab
10.17.15 | as long as there's conflict the metal is good |
Asdfp277
10.17.15 | I love it when bigoted people get all butthurt coz people don't agree with their shitty beliefs and trump the "METAL IS A PLACE FOR EXPRESSING OPINIONS" like what do u think we're doing lmao |
worthlessscab
10.17.15 | they are assuming you have the almighty power of silencing them |
Asdfp277
10.17.15 | yah lol |
worthlessscab
10.17.15 | and tbh attacking christianity is just beating a dead horse at this point. We need more metal that bashes islam. Impure Orgies of Muhammad |
SCREAM!
10.17.15 | @worthless https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2HM71E-tyw |
worthlessscab
10.17.15 | the lebanese metalheads sure have balls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6qeDrBHGSo
they must put on some death-defying live performances |
Asdfp277
10.17.15 | digging both those so far, sweet! |
Asdfp277
10.17.15 | violent as in violent music, or as violent people? |
SCREAM!
10.17.15 | "Check out SVOLDER. One of the best modern bm bands. Anti-Islamic. "
Ugh their music is good but discovering a Canadian anti-islamic band right now is just cringe given the political climate here atm |
Asdfp277
10.17.15 | still kind of a bummer to find out some good musicians are stupid af tho |
zaruyache
10.17.15 | Damaar's sounding pretty br00tal. I love this kind of noisey nasty hardcore. |
HenchmanOfSanta
10.17.15 | Idiocy is a choice. |
zaruyache
10.17.15 | "you're trying to hurt me. "
pffff |
Madbutcher3
10.17.15 | i don't "like" the malevolent creation particularly, but I think it's a major improvement on their previous stuff since 2000.
"If it bothers you so much, why listen to music in the first place? Besides, half of it is bullshit machismo posturing to look evil anyways. The intent is often lacking (not always, but often). As cliched and stupid as this may sound, do you listen to metal for the messages or do you listen to metal for the riffs??? Apply the same philosophy to music as a whole. Have fun."
That's a fair angle, but normally bands that express racist views outside of their music tend to be more genuine. Some do it in a posturing way, like Arghoslent to an extent (although of course they are genuinely racist dickheads) which is sort of theatrical, but bands that use it in a way that has no, for a lack of a better phrase, "artistic merit", such as outside of their music, are just kind of pathetic.
Inevitably that's going to sound weird but basically I'd rather have posturing than genuine belief. Arghoslent probably bothers me less than some others because I'm of Jewish descent so I'm not hearing them target different groups of minorities. |
Madbutcher3
10.17.15 | I think I agree with you on this one actually. However, I'd take a band that postures over one that doesn't present intolerance in its music but does in its public persona. |
Madbutcher3
10.17.15 | I'm pretty sure as a culture we don't punish thought crimes - there is a significant difference between expressing your intolerance and having intolerant views, as the former is making a political statement, which is as good a reason as any to not pay attention to art. |
SCREAM!
10.17.15 | @sl3igher The problem with that logic is that you are giving equal value to something that might be true (maybe the band is secretly assholes) as to something you know to be true (when the band has already proven they are assholes). If you know your food is poisoned you won't eat it but you won't stop eating all food because some of it might be poisoned even though there is no indication that it would be.
Innocent until proven guilty blahblahblah |
Epilogue
10.18.15 | Why |
Ocean of Noise
10.18.15 | dude I'm gonna listen to Varg Vikernes' music till the day I die. however, I still think the guy should be locked up and the key should be thrown away.
music has nothing to do with morals unless it's used to explicitly convey a hateful message. |
