KrazyKris: Sucks So Much

KrazyKris 09.17.14	I hate it when people's stupidity gets in my way and I can't avoid it.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	How did you get to study in Vienna for free? I hope that system is at least bilingual and yeah some university's system's are really awful in terms of being user friendly.
henryChinaski 09.17.14	I hear you man. Had the same experience when I started studying. I guess this online registration thing pretty much sucks at a lot of universities. It helped me to to actually talk to someone in person from the uni who was familiar with the system instead of emailing around without getting any answers.
NorthernSkylark 09.17.14	jam wilco - nothing'severgonnastandinmyway(again)
KrazyKris 09.17.14	@henry Yeah, need to do that tomorrow. Although I expect to hear something like "oh, you better ask those guys, they know what to do" instead of actual help, but I have no other options anyway. E-mails are bound to be unanswered and I don't even waste my time with that. I personally think this whole online registration thing is completely useless. The only thing it does is playing into people's lazyness, so noone has to go outside, instead sitting on their ass at home. Only problem, no human contact means there's no questions answered, no one to talk to, everything is on your own. But with a system that's everything but logic or intuitive, you can't really tell people that's how autonomy and self-reliance works. @Wolfhorde I am from Vienna, we don't have to pay to go to university (except for some miniscule fee) unless we need to long to finish.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	Yeah, I know - it's the same here in Germany and in most E.U. countries - I just thought you were American (like the majority of users on this site) which would've made that a tad awkward.
KrazyKris 09.17.14	You're german, didn't know that. Yeah, must be a bit irritating for US students to know studying in most EU countries is free and they have to pay tens of thousands. Definitely has an impact on the quality around here though, you at least have the numerus clausus, we just let anybody in.
danielcardoso 09.17.14	1 and 2 sound appropriate. That sucks man, hope you sort it out quickly.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	That's actually a misconception (albeit extremely common). Just because U.S. (and for that matter also Canadian and to some extent British) universities are more expensive doesn't mean they automatically also use that money in a manner that goes towards the education and well functioning systems of the universities. That may be true for the big ones like MIT, Yale, Harvard and some others but doesn't have to be true in general. In fact, there's ample evidence that the much cheaper community colleges partially provide education that is as good or better as some of the non-elite prestigious universities. Or take a look at Aachen, Heidelberg, München. They all have universities that excel at certain subjects are among the best in existence in OECD countries and none of them is private. Plus, you have the issue that if you go for a laissez-faire economic approach to education you make the students to customers and you have to cater to customers which can easily destroy academic quality, as for profit institution some are also more inclined to cut corners in order to make profits which can also be detrimental to academic quality. Obviously it all depends on the specific institution but it works pretty well in quite a few European countries. Not just having money counts, but being able to use it adequately given a specific context.
henryChinaski 09.17.14	"Plus, you have the issue that if you go for a laissez-faire economic approach to education you make the students to customers and you have to cater to customers which can easily destroy academic quality" Yeah definitely. Great post! :]
KrazyKris 09.17.14	Yeah, definitely right. To compare those systems wasn't that smart to begin with and I was obviously just talking about the best-known universities. But although the success of european universities, even with fairly limited funding, is quite impressive, Austria isn't exactly a prime example for that. It's not just that our unis are far away from being as prestigous as many others in europe, if you look at both, the amount of well-known and prestigous scientists and the average level of the students, this country has seen better days. It isn't necessarily about the money - although I think it wouldn't be too wrong to demand a little bit from students in return -, but with overcrowded unis everywhere, drop-out rates that high and the everything but strict way to handle the progress of all the students there isn't too much to win. Anyway, agree with everything you said, a little bit more money for our (meaning Austria only) higher education wouldn't hurt though.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	That is generally not a bad idea although I find the idea to demand that from students is not necessarily the best one, since you'd either have to extract it from those who can by some means afford it or insist that people make possibly unfeasible amounts of debt (particularly if that money is supposed to be enough to make a meaningful difference). Whether the usual government subsidies would be sufficient for that is questionable. But before you'd even consider that I'd think actually having a look where things can be organized more effectively, i.e. how resources can be allocated better would be much more efficient idea. And as for the NC, it's vastly outdated and meaningless. Entry tests (like how you handle psychology) is generally a better idea since NC often barely gauges people's abilites for a certain subject. Nowadays you can impossibly stop people from cheating their way through the MS, quite a lot of school have also dumbed down their standards - particularly those outside of Saxony, Bavaria and Hessia. Then you have the issue that school subjects are often unrelated to a lot of the subjects in university (like what I study, law - the only subjects of possible relevance are Latin, History and Social Studies). This is particularly detrimental if somebody is really good in some things but not as good in others, take someone who excels at anything but natural sciences/math or vice-versa. Then there's a methodology issue as grades may be reflective on the technique or memory capacity somebody is able to apply (or how good they can cheat) it not reflective of their general comprehension of a given subject - which is much more important.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	*but not
KrazyKris 09.17.14	Talking about efficient use of money is something that's ever-present, yet never is there anything actually. Looking at those discussions in Austria - regardless of whether we're talking about education or any other institutions - has something quite comical nowadays and although Germany isn't exactly good with such things either, you're still miles ahead of us. Our strategy for the last decade has been to cut the budgets of our university or at least to circumvent giving them more money at any cost. Everything else is debatable, but I'm quite certain this isn't the right way to improve anything. About the NC: It is antiquated, especially since looking at the grades of schools, whose standards have become lower and lower (again, speaking for Austria, but Germany isn't really ahead of us there), is quite stupid. Even more so today, where it is well established that the knowledge and skills of a person aren't properly displayed through numbers. Still, comparing a system with the NC and one with pretty much no restrictions, I would rather have yours. Looking at it from a completely egotistical point though, since grades, school and - might sound arrogant - my intelligence in general have never been a problem of any kind for me. So I would definitely benefit from limitations of any kind, since it's no mystery that the educational quality is very likely to improve, the lower the number of students is.
KrazyKris 09.17.14	@Captain Converted citizens definitely, actually I'm not even too sure - I was never concerned with that, so there's no guarantee I'm right by any means -, if you have to pay anything at all, even as an "educational immigrant", so to say. At least if you're from an EU/EWR country there should be no problem with that. Still, the alternative would be to pay a few hundred per semester, so it's not exactly inhumane.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	"Talking about efficient use of money is something that's ever-present, yet never is there anything actually. Looking at those discussions in Austria - regardless of whether we're talking about education or any other institutions - has something quite comical nowadays and although Germany isn't exactly good with such things either, you're still miles ahead of us." A bit too much of a generalization for my tastes, it really depends on what specifically we're talking about when it comes to effective resource allocation. And obviously I was just throwing out hypotheticals and no specifically tailored suggestions based on the current situation as I lack sufficient information to do that. "About the NC: It is antiquated, especially since looking at the grades of schools, whose standards have become lower and lower (again, speaking for Austria, but Germany isn't really ahead of us there), is quite stupid. Even more so today, where it is well established that the knowledge and skills of a person aren't properly displayed through numbers. Still, comparing a system with the NC and one with pretty much no restrictions, I would rather have yours." Can't judge on that one since I'm unfamiliar with your system and possible regional differences. I like how our law faculty handles things, there's no NC but over the semesters they filter out the people who don't keep up. I would also dare say that the goal of university's is generally not to produce some kind of top-tier elite so most subjects in most universities will give you a certain "minimum" standard. Excelling at something often goes further than anything that is contained within formal education.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	"Looking at it from a completely egotistical point though, since grades, school and - might sound arrogant - my intelligence in general have never been a problem of any kind for me. So I would definitely benefit from limitations of any kind, since it's no mystery that the educational quality is very likely to improve, the lower the number of students is." That is a horrible argument for education in general, though. The idea that a lower number of students necessarily leads to an increase academic quality is also logically fallacious. There were such academies back in the day where you solely had homogenous groups usually consisting of a very specific elite that kept the status quo instead of driving progress. "Will people who are converted citizens be allowed to take advantage of the free universal system or is that a commodity only available to natural citizens?" Makes absolutely no difference, as a E.U. citizen - either born or naturalized/assimilated/however you want to dub it - you have the same rights and privileges. (most of the exceptions are in the holding of higher public offices) It may actually even be illegal to discriminate based on whether someone is a natural or assimilated citizen.
KrazyKris 09.17.14	~I would also dare say that the goal of university's is generally not to produce some kind of top-tier elite so most subjects in most universities will give you a certain "minimum" standard. Excelling at something often goes further than anything that is contained within formal education.~ Well, that's the usual debate between elitists and people, who want to open up education as much as possible. I totally agree that a university isn't there to provide education as some kind of gifted program. On the other hand, it is a question of both resources and a concession to those that are more skilled (at least in an academic sense of the word), if it is really necessary and desirable to provide education on a level this high for everyone. Yeah, we too have the restriction that you need at least a "Matura"/"Abitur" to sign in without having to take a certain exam before, but looking at the level of many schools around here - and at the poor level of the final exams at my school - I don't know, if that's enough. But that's the same discussion as with comprehensive schools vs. separated school system. While a certain kind of logic and empathy points to the first, I personally am not really convinced simply because of my personal experiences.
LambsBread 09.17.14	college..........
KrazyKris 09.17.14	I'm 20. And age isn't exactly a proper way to measure ones intelligence. But honestly, wanna start again?
LambsBread 09.17.14	I'm not talking about intelligence though, i'm talking about wisdom, and age does correlate to wisdom in general. Its disrespectful to write off everything someone is telling you to 'coming from one book' when they are your elder and have put much more intellectual effort into the topic being discussed. Did you ever even read the book?
LambsBread 09.17.14	didn't mean for my first comment to sound so dickish btw sorry but by the way you were disregarding everything I said from before I figured you were like 30 years old and had a PHD in psychology.
KrazyKris 09.17.14	~Did you ever even read the book?~ Nope, not yet. Actually tried to find it somewhere, but couldn't. And when I looked it up on the internet I saw its price and though, nah, that's not worth it. Didn't even know you were older than me actually. And that might be written off by you as complete arrogance again, but I don't really take advice on important issues by some guy I wrote a few times in the sputnik forum. My trust in someone and especially that persons intelligence isn't gained that easy.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	@Kris: I agree on a certain level. I think people should do what their skillset is good for, whether that is a certain subject in university or a certain subject/field in an alternative career path. (given that it has equally or near equally good prospects) But before that happens people need to know what skillset they have and what it's actually good for. I think skill mismatch is probably one of the general issues in this regard, as for universities a "reassigning" of sorts may already be adequate for certain people. As for the systems debate, I think there is a vast difference between the concept and the execution. The concept of the Bachelor/Master system switch was good, the execution (at least initially) was bad. The concept of the comprehensive schools is good but we haven't seen any good execution of it here. The Finnish managed to execute it relatively well but that also came with a wide variety of education reforms and it wasn't necessarily a quick change. Also, just as a sidenote: If somebody can't agree to the basic principles of civil discourse that person deserves exactly zero attention.
Wolfhorde 09.17.14	Or if that person is unable to refrain from logical fallacies/personal attacks and the like. @Captain: I'm not entirely certain to which degree tri-citizenships are possible in the E.U., dual citizenship is certainly possible in some countries but it depends. Some have limitations where you have to choose one, there may also be limitations that you can't have a tri-citizenship. Some of this related to taxes and being eligible for social security and all that stuff.
KrazyKris 09.17.14	~I figured you were like 30 years old and had a PHD in psychology.~ One of the major problems of our society that someone's intelligence, trustworthiness, etc. is obviously measured by his age and his degree or similar "accomplishments". I'm not a second Stephen Hawking. Actually I'm so far away from that guy, he would probably beat me in chess in 2 minutes. I'm just a guy, who exceeded his contemporaries when it came to things usually linked to intelligence. Sadly not in anything else, since I suck at sports and am an emotional cripple. And since I don't want to start such a discussion all over again, that's it from my side on that matter.
KrazyKris 09.17.14	@Wolfhorde Again, fully agree. Especially the skillset part seems important. There's hardly any governmental support when it comes to adolescents finding their strenghts and talents. Although testing that would be neither expensive nor overtly complicated. Though around here the motto seems to be "Just do something you like, then it'll work somehow". What people tend to forget is what my tennis coach once said to me: "A sport is only fun, if you're good at it." I won't say that's a universal rule, but a correlation between skills and the satisfaction you get out of your work is there. Also, on Finland: A few things that are reality up there are highly unlikely to be seen in Austria. The image of teachers is so bad in this country that we are far away from attracting the best people for the job, while in Scandinavia or East Asia they seem to have quite a good standing. This combined with the often poor working conditions and our problems with an outdated curriculum makes for difficult circumstances. Plus, Austria, like Germany or France, isn't exactly known for its flexibility, so until such systems work it takes practically forever. ~Also, just as a sidenote: If somebody can't agree to the basic principles of civil discourse that person deserves exactly zero attention.~ Was that directed at me? Not offended, just would like to know.
KrazyKris 09.17.14	@Captain Well, tri-citizenship is - and again, can't guarantee anything - not really possible I think. Dual is in no way problematic, but I think you would have to choose which way you wanna go then. And about Sweden: Seems a bit like a paradise in some ways (too cold though). For years it was the prime example of a well-functioning welfare state, nowadays it doesn't appear to be so brilliant up there anymore. But definitely up- and downsides everywhere. I personally think I'd have my problems with the liberal systems in the US for example, on the other hand: Many beautiful places for sure.
LambsBread 09.17.14	that book: Think and Grow Rich is like 9 dollars with free shipping. "but I don't really take advice on important issues by some guy I wrote a few times in the sputnik forum." I didn't ask you to 'take advice' I asked you to read a renowned short book you were criticizing without having read.
zakalwe 09.17.14	"I'm not a second Stephen Hawking. Actually I'm so far away from that guy, he would probably beat me in chess in 2 minutes." That the thing with you Austrians, always so modest!!
KrazyKris 09.18.14	Yeah, ok, still incredible overstatement. Actually the only thing for me to do in such a scenario would be to lay down my king and congratulate him before we even started to play. It's like giving a crossword puzzle to a chimpanzee, just won't work.
BigPleb 09.18.14	Its dumb that we over here in the UK have to pay £9,000 a year while others get it for free.
DamnVanne 09.18.14	many of the people I grew up with have a 4 year degree, tens of thousand of dollars of debt because of it, and haven't found it useful in getting a job to pay back the debt. Be grateful that you can access that kind education.
BigPleb 09.18.14	Ye, you should be very grateful for the free education. Although, this system you speak of does sound ashambles. If you live out at Uni for 3 years in the UK, you can expect to be paying back at least £40,000.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	Not that I'm particularly ungrateful, but I really don't like such arguments. Yeah, it sucks worse that people in the US and UK have to pay a fortune to study at a university, but that isn't exactly a reason why I shouldn't complain about some crappy things going on around here, especially if it's so obvious.
BigPleb 09.18.14	I'm not shooting on you for complaining, as I said this system sounds completely nonfunctional and, regardless of payment, should not be this way.