neurisis17: Youtube Music Listening

Pheromone 11.10.13	"It feels a bit like cheating. When you listen through Youtube, you don't have to put any effort in to the listening experience. At least with a download you out a file on your computer." Bravo.
Snake. 11.10.13	Does Spotify cost any money, Futures?
StallionMang 11.10.13	Basic Spotify accounts are free, but if you don't want the ads in between songs you can buy the premium.
SmersH 11.10.13	meh. personally, if the band no longer exists there's no problem... but then i think that regarding downloads, too.
Pheromone 11.10.13	I buy most of my CDs but yeah I jammed The Blackest Beautiful for like 3 months on youtube before I bought it.
Snake. 11.10.13	How much is the premium, Stallion?
Trebor. 11.10.13	spotify is fucking terrible in every single way imaginable and if I want to listen to an album before I dl it then yeah I'm going youtube
Pheromone 11.10.13	I'm trying to get the Republic Of Wolves LP but the only way I can get it is spotify, no way to dl it and my Itunes isn't working & I don't want to get the Physical release prior to hearing it.
Hyperion1001 11.10.13	spotify honestly hurts artists more than pirating does, so no dont use spotify because it is a draconian service made explicitly by the music industry to postpone its inevitable collapse. download it, listen to it, and then buy it if it's good. its so easy to download music in good quality i dont understand how people cant figure it out.
SmersH 11.10.13	damn. rage against the spotify, huh kid.
Pheromone 11.10.13	Ya but there are literally no safe downloads for TROW.
StallionMang 11.10.13	Well, the unlimited is $4.99 a month, which is basically uninterrupted music, but the premium means you can listen to Spotify on all your devices instead of just your computer, and you can also download music off of it, and that's $9.99 a month.
neurisis17 11.10.13	^I sorta feel the same way about Spotify. I don't really have a huge problem with either. I guess I prefer to listen to music in a relatively old school way.
Decay 11.10.13	I prefer spotify.
XingKing 11.10.13	I'll listen to full albums all the time if I want to check it out before downloading it/buying it.
neurisis17 11.10.13	Yeah I get that it's sort of a screening process with Spotify / Youtube. But I find that I buy music more selectively if I have to make the purchase before I know how the album sounds, and I end up liking a lot more of the music that I buy.
frigyourgenre 11.10.13	I Check it out on YouTube before buying
neurisis17 11.10.13	But that being said I will sometimes sample a song online if I'm unsure about how it will sound. From there I can keep a mental note that a certain album could be worth a listen eventually.
zakalwe 11.10.13	Digital age blows
lyzakthellama 11.10.13	If i want to hear something before seeing a band or buying an album I'll use spotify to listen to a few songs because it's typically higher quality than youtube. Other than that though I'm still with you on this and still basically buy every album I like
lyzakthellama 11.10.13	Digital age blows [2]
JamieTwort 11.10.13	Spotify is great. I buy a lot of my music and I use Spotify a lot in order to listen to albums before buying them, that way I'm much more inclined to actually buy the album than I would be had I downloaded it. I get what Hype is saying but for what I use it for I don't see the harm, especially seeing as it makes me more likely to actually purchase the music.
WeepingBanana 11.10.13	i don't think some already rich guy should become even more rich off of albums he had nothing to do with so yeah i don't spotify just download like cmon
JamieTwort 11.10.13	I don't pay for Spotify btw.
TheBarber 11.10.13	"I feel that the internet should be a place of music discovery, not the main source of our listening" this hard
itsalltherage 11.10.13	If that's the only place that it's available on, I guess you don't have a choice. But otherwise at least download it in 320 if you're not going to buy it or are undecided. No point depriving yourself of the superior listening experience that higher quality audio will always provide.
TheGreatQ 11.10.13	Digital age blows [3]
GnarlyShillelagh 11.10.13	i don't do it bc then you don't get play counts but there's nothing wrong with it i don't really understand the question/point
GnarlyShillelagh 11.10.13	music has already become diluted in the amalgam of the internet btw
Pheromone 11.10.13	I like the digital age but I still prefer physical cds
itsalltherage 11.10.13	Sorry I was answering the OP's question to be honest FourthReich. But yer fair enough if that's what works for you dude. It's just that it's so unbelievably easy these days to go to any music download blog & get it in 320 off mediafire etc. - so I guess I just don't see why you wouldn't choose that option all things considered if quality is of any importance to you. It's fairly easy to just delete it if you find you aren't able to get into it at all. Plus if you don't quite like it enough to want to buy it, at least you can keep it or whatever songs you do enjoy.
Feather 11.10.13	get spotify. I finally downloaded it because I didn't understand the hype but it is awesome.
JamieTwort 11.10.13	"spotify is fucking terrible in every single way imaginable and if I want to listen to an album before I dl it then yeah I'm going youtube" I don't really understand why people take this view with Spotify. One of the main reasons I use Spotify (the free version) as a way of checking out music is because Youtube doesn't have many of the albums I want to check out. If Spotify is the easiest and only way to listen to music before buying it (or pirating it) then why not use it. It's pretty naive to think that using Spotify in this way has a significantly worse effect on the music business than pirating. I do realise that not everyone uses Spotify to 'try before they buy' but I'm sure a good number of people do and for those people Spotify is a really good way of checking out new music.
WeepingBanana 11.10.13	it doesn't matter if you don't pay for premium. you're still giving it your membership and thus ad revenue. at least with pirating some white collar scum isn't making a fortune off fucking dark side of the moon
JamieTwort 11.10.13	Yes but using Spotify as a means to try before I buy (as in actually pay for music) surely has a good effect on the music industry overall than simply pirating. My point is if it wasn't for Spotify a lot of the time I would just pirate music in order to hear it and then once I own it I'd have no incentive to actually buy it. I'm just saying Spotify does have some positive effects on the music industry, even if it's not directly.
JamieTwort 11.10.13	Who gives a fuck if some "white collar scum" gets money out of it, I'm still supporting the artist in a roundabout way.
WeepingBanana 11.10.13	people can't try before they buy if they pirate an album first? which is just as easy as spotify if you have an intact brain
WeepingBanana 11.10.13	no way does spotify, as a whole, help any musician or music scene anywhere
JamieTwort 11.10.13	Jesus Christ, you're not understanding me at all. With regards to the first of those two comments see this: "My point is if it wasn't for Spotify a lot of the time I would just pirate music in order to hear it and then once I own it I'd have no incentive to actually buy it." With regards to the second, no it doesn't help as a whole but it does have some positive effects such as the one I have explained above. This is why I said "in a roundabout way".
JamieTwort 11.10.13	I'm sure I'm not the only person who would be more likely to buy an album after streaming it than they would be after obtaining it illegally and putting it on their iPod or whatever.
thumbcrusher 11.10.13	I sub to spotify and buy what I really like on CD. I try not to listen to too much cause as you people have said makes each one less special. Billy Bragg defended it this week saying Spotify is fine, artists just need to be on the right deal with their label. Doesn't work for everyone at the moment but many arists have come out in support of it.
toxin. 11.10.13	good for classical music 'cause it's easier to find different performers. usually i hate listening to it on spotify for that reason. also not interested in having 32 different versions of a piece to figure out which is my fav so i'd rather listen on youtube before DL that said, i listen to everything else exclusively thru spotify #helptheartists
toxin. 11.10.13	"Who gives a fuck if some "white collar scum" gets money out of it, I'm still supporting the artist in a roundabout way." god jamie you're way too intelligent to even be posting here
JamieTwort 11.11.13	Thanks. In order to be more clear (as Weeping seems to have misinterpreted that) I probably should have said "...I'm still supporting the artist in a roundabout way by then going out and buying the music I had streamed on Spotify". Not a dig at Weeping, I can see why that could have been misunderstood when looked at on it's own.
toxin. 11.11.13	Yeah come to think of it I've been considering canceling my Spotify membership, $10 / month is too much, though I dig the convenience of listening to stuff on Spotify. It's really too bad their unlimited plan doesn't have HQ streaming.
WeepingBanana 11.11.13	I guess I just don't see how one would be more inclined to buy a physical copy after streaming over downloading
lyzakthellama 11.11.13	Because after streaming you still don't own it. You can't listen to it on your phone or offline like you could if you download it, therefore further enticing you to actually buy the goddamned album
JamieTwort 11.11.13	^Exactly. If you already own the album in digital format you're less likely to want to buy the CD than you would be if your only experience of that album was having heard it through a streaming service (whilst having it interrupted by adverts I could add for those of us who don't pay for Spotify).
Amphoteric 11.11.13	I always listen to music on YT, and if I really like it I (usually) always buy the CD if it's available somewhere.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	@lyzakthellama & JamieTwort I understand the logic behind your reasoning. It's just that it doesn't really make any sense. If you genuinely want to support the band by purchasing a physical copy, then it shouldn't matter whether you already have unlimited access to it or not. & equally, if you don't quite like an album enough to warrant spending actual money on it, but still enjoy certain songs that you would like to listen to again - then at least you still have that access to it. Piracy is indeed a plague on the industry & all, as a musician myself I'm fully aware of that - but it's something that you have to accept in it's present existence & you might as well use to your advantage. You've got to realise that many modern musicians themselves have admitted they would rather you at least listen to & appreciate the music in it's intended form - as opposed to never hearing it at all. If you're saying that once you have the 320/flac files on your computer, there's no motivation or actual necessity to get the album in physical form as well even if you love the band - then you're just a lazy douchebag.
lyzakthellama 11.11.13	Most people are lazy douchebags who get those tormented files and never actually spend the money on the album for whatever reason. If you use spotify to stream some songs to see if you like it before purchasing, your intent is to purchase. If you torrent it, what is your intent? To have to music in your library without paying for it. Most people, after torrenting an album are not going to spend money on it seeing as how that already technically own it. People have grown accustomed to unfairly receiving music and if they download it they have no incentive other than morals to actually buy it.
Weirman 11.11.13	I buy CD's and use spotify and youtube and for school i'll use rdio (cuz it aint blocked) That's my story and i'm sticking to it
JamieTwort 11.11.13	@itsalltherage: This: "If you use spotify to stream some songs to see if you like it before purchasing, your intent is to purchase. If you torrent it, what is your intent? To have to music in your library without paying for it." I don't really need to say anymore as I'm not actually sure of the point you're trying to make. If it doesn't make sense to you that listening to something legally before buying it is better than stealing it (even if you do purchase it afterwards) then I don't see where we can go from here.
Amphoteric 11.11.13	lyzakthellama's post is nothing but trvth
PunchforPunch 11.11.13	guess i'm a lazy douchebag.. oh well.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	Well do you place yourself in the same class of morality as those that you speak of? To be honest, I have nearly 30,000 songs in my itunes at this current moment in time (28,765 to be exact). The majority of them I have admittedly obtained in 320 form from whatever uploaded/mediafire/etc. links I can find on the net. & yet I also happen to own something like a 150-200 album strong collection that I have amassed over the years. In an ideal world, I would love to own every CD I have a remote proclivity for - because I am truly fascinated by music & I guess in that sense even have somewhat of a CD fetish if you will. But most people don't possess the financial capabilities to fund that kind of habit - certainly not for me being on the verge of 21 & already having most of my money wrapped up in expensive high end guitar gear - so I don't see anything wrong with downloading & keeping albums that you don't necessarily love, but would like to listen to occasionally or for specific songs only. In fact I haven't listened to a large section of those 30K songs in reality, because I literally trawl the music blogs in search of anything that seems as if it might be remotely up my alley & chuck it in my itunes anticipating I will give it a spin at some point & form judgement on whether it's worthy of a physical purchase, or if I only want to keep it for a couple of songs that are actually enjoyable for me. If I happen to like an album enough in that I believe it would mean so much more to me to own an actual physical copy to add to my collection & would like to support the artist for their efforts, then I purchase the CD/download from their bandcamp - purely on the basis that it deserves to be rather than out of desperation or necessity. You're not really deterring anyone by not downloading what is already publicly available for the entire web; & yet you're depriving yourself of a superior listening experience that might in actual fact be a factor in swaying you towards obtaining a physical copy. Just seems illogical to me. Especially if you're paying for spotify or whatever as well. Guarantee the artists are getting absolute fuck all commision off of that mate.
zakalwe 11.11.13	I love your structured replies itsalltherage but within their content is all the evidence needed that your generation is shit.
JamieTwort 11.11.13	"Guarantee the artists are getting absolute fuck all commision off of that mate." Well I can guarantee that artists aren't getting any commission from your illegal downloads either, mate. Thus I don't see how this is relevant. If I use Spotify as a way of listening to music before buying it then what difference does this make. And I don't pay for Spotify.
Amphoteric 11.11.13	"You're not really deterring anyone by not downloading what is already publicly available for the entire web" Doesn't that seem kind of like the "well everybody else is doing it, so it's ok" kind of attitude?
JamieTwort 11.11.13	"yet you're depriving yourself of a superior listening experience that might in actual fact be a factor in swaying you towards obtaining a physical copy." I've already explained why I'm more likely to buy music I stream rather than that which I own so you can leave this argument out.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	Yes, my generation is shit. As a 21 year old musician, piracy has made my future an incredibly uncertain & ultimately bleak prospect. But I have learned to accept & embrace it's existence, because the fact is that without it, I wouldn't have discovered even a miniscule of the music that I have, & I would undoubtedly regret that far more than breaking some contrived moral code that satisfies your self-righteous ideals. I can't possibly comprehend how you would all be able to exist in a world where the music you have readily available to listen to is strictly limited to the music you can immediately purchase - when the reality is that you're not. I don't know how the fuck you guys can afford to purchase every single song & album in your itunes without having some serious disposable income - because it would literally translate to $1000s in CDs for me - which is entirely unfeasible as a 21 year old musician, considering the ever-increasing daily costs of living on this planet & my already financially crippling relentless gear-whoring tendencies. In an ideal world, my ideal solution would be that I could listen to every single song that has ever existed, on spotify or youtube, in at least 320; & likewise itunes would have every song available for individual purchase in 320. However, this has not come to fruition yet for whatever reason. So in order to fully experience & immerse myself in an album prior to deciding whether it is worthy of what are precious funds for me, the only choice I'm left with is illegally downloading/stealing/whatever. Fair enough if you're content with only being able to listen to a few hundred CDs for the rest of your life that encapsulate your entire scope of music. However, I could not possibly condone nor lead such a sheltered existence given the advantages that technology has provided in this era - because music means more than the world to me, & I will always endeavour to explore it in every way that I possibly can without imposing contrived & convoluted limitations on myself.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	& I'm sorry for the massive walls of text, but the parapgraphs just disappear every time I click submit. Would be great if someone could enlighten me as to how I can keep the lines/spaces in between.
Shuyin 11.11.13	you got 3, so its a legit list and by 3 i obviously mean the album, cuz its rules and all
JamieTwort 11.11.13	@itsalltherage: I'd like to remind you what this discussion is (or was originally) about. We were discussing whether or not streaming music through Spotify is worse than illegal downloading. I haven't once claimed to buy ALL of my music (because that would be a lie) I'm just arguing that people who say Spotify is the worst thing ever for the music industry and then say you might as well just pirate it are incredibly naive. Spotify has some positive effects on the music industry, in fact some artists fully endorse it. One positive being the fact that it allows people to listen to music before purchasing it without resorting to piracy.
neurisis17 11.11.13	First off, Lyzak and Jamie win this thread, honorable mention for Amphoteric's last comment. The fact that some people don't care that music is downloaded illegally speaks volumes of the bastardization of the music industry. Think of music as a prostitute. If your gonna be pleasured by it might as well pay up for the trouble it went to to make you happy. Without payment it's just rape... You may think it's no big deal if its just you, and honestly it wouldn't be, but tens of thousands of people think that same way (see Amphoteric's comment), and it adds up to one giant dick fucking the artist.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	'If I use Spotify as a way of listening to music before buying it then what difference does this make. And I don't pay for Spotify.' Well I don't use spotify whatsoever as you can tell, so I don't have a clue about it's costs, I jsut saw that someone mentioned they pay $10 for it or whatever. In any case, as far as I'm aware, Spotify is limited in the scope of music it includes - as well as the inferior quality not being truly representative of the sound that the artist wanted to convey. In reality, it doesn't matter if you don't give a shit about quality, but I just don't quite understand why you would willingly choose to settle for that option when you can just as easily download the entire album in a superior form that is more accurate to the actual product you're intending/in the process of deciding to purchase. 'I've already explained why I'm more likely to buy music I stream rather than that which I own so you can leave this argument out.' Do you not realize what an incredibly weak-minded individual that makes you seem? Have some fucking integrity man. An album & your whole concept of actually supporting the band should mean enough to you that you still go ahead & purchase it - entirely & absolutely in spite of the fact you already have a 320 copy available in front of you if that happens to be the case. The manner in which you go about it makes it seem as though you're forcing yourself to buy an album purely for the sake of not illegally downloading it, which is really quite a perplexing mindset to have if I'm to be entirely honest. You should want to buy it because it's actually worth spending your money on, not because it's wrong if you download it. But maybe that's just me...
Weirman 11.11.13	"If you use spotify to stream some songs to see if you like it before purchasing, your intent is to purchase. If you torrent it, what is your intent? To have to music in your library without paying for it." I'm sorry, but that's just not the case with me. Both sides of the story end the same way for me: I buy it if I like it. Except with spotify, if I hear an album I don't like, I didnt have to go through a long extracting/uploading/and finally deleting process
GnarlyShillelagh 11.11.13	umm guys bands barely make any money when you buy their shit if they're on a major label so stop feeling bad when you don't buy an album bc you're literally just giving money to the label and fuck record labels if you want to support an artist buy merch or see them live get rid of the bullshit mentality that if you don't buy music you're hurting the artist bc they get like a dollar on every album sold and the rest goes to victory records who are just there to fuck up creativity and artistic integrity
GnarlyShillelagh 11.11.13	according to theroot.com or something, on every $1000 in album sales, the average musician makes $23.40. idk how true that is but it's definitely not much.
YourDarkAffected 11.11.13	If spotify is getting more people (who without Spotify would otherwise not know of these artists) to go out to these struggling artists' concerts, and by extension buying t-shirts, cds, merchandise, etc. straight from the artists, then I would say they are benefiting from the service. I know that doesn't apply to every artist, but then again, they have the right to withhold from the service if they, and their label/managers/whatever, do so wish (see Thom Yorke/Atoms for Peace as an example).
lyzakthellama 11.11.13	Labels are a neccessary evil. The people that make the album possible to make need to make profit or they won't make albums anymore.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	'We were discussing whether or not streaming music through Spotify is worse than illegal downloading.' Well downloading to get an initial idea of what music sounds like is in fact superior to listening to the whole album on youtube/spotify/whatever - if you give half a shit about quality. If it doesn't matter to you, then whatever, that's a whole nother issue... If you yourself now admit to in fact having downloaded some of your music, then I'm not sure why we're actually arguing about piracy whatsoever as it's rather hypocritical. The fact is - piracy exists & is going to exist for the foreseeable future. If I could flick the switch that shut it all down & meant that every time someone added a song to their itunes, the artists get their due commissions - then I would. It would certainly be conducive to my own career prospects. But it seems that I, nor anyone else, can do shit all about how easily & freely shared music is on the internet these days. & until something or someone does revolutionise it, it's better to just accept its existence & do what you can to help out your favourite bands, rather than get upset about it & declare it entirely immoral. I buy CDs to support my favourite artists & the albums that I enjoy enough to warrant my money as such - my target in life pretty much being to amass a collection of every album that I like (ultimately to all be stuck to a massive wall/walls of a room one day). I'm very much an OCD completist in that sense. But for now at least, that's an impractical goal & not being able to achieve it shouldn't unnecessarily limit me to what I can listen to & enjoy whenever I want in my present financial situation.
lyzakthellama 11.11.13	Plus most of the things every user here probably listens to more than likely isn't on a major
neurisis17 11.11.13	In regards to labels... Sure most major labels such as Warner Bros., Capitol, Atlantic don't need more money, especially when they're not really treating the artist as such, but instead a commodity. But there are countless indie labels that are doing their best to support real music, and spread it as far as they can, while maintaining the integrity of the artist's vision. I will gladly support labels like Relapse, Profound Lore, Southern Lord, Translation Loss, Hydra Head, Constellation, Sargent House, Neurot Recordings, and so many others by buying their music as long as they are doing what they can to spread positive music culture.
neurisis17 11.11.13	GnarlyShillelagh your view on labels seems a bit skewed.
JamieTwort 11.11.13	"In reality, it doesn't matter if you don't give a shit about quality, but I just don't quite understand why you would willingly choose to settle for that option when you can just as easily download the entire album in a superior form that is more accurate to the actual product you're intending/in the process of deciding to purchase." Oh come on, seriously? You need to hear an album in the highest possible quality to be able to tell whether or not you want it? Half the pleasure I get from purchasing physical copies of albums is the experience of listening to it in full for the first time in the quality that the artist intended it to be heard. If I download an album first and listen to it in full that takes away the element of mystery of listening to an album that you've only streamed a couple of tracks from. "Do you not realize what an incredibly weak-minded individual that makes you seem? Have some fucking integrity man. An album & your whole concept of actually supporting the band should mean enough to you that you still go ahead & purchase it - entirely & absolutely in spite of the fact you already have a 320 copy available in front of you if that happens to be the case. The manner in which you go about it makes it seem as though you're forcing yourself to buy an album purely for the sake of not illegally downloading it, which is really quite a perplexing mindset to have if I'm to be entirely honest. You should want to buy it because it's actually worth spending your money on, not because it's wrong if you download it. But maybe that's just me..." Fuckin' lol. Are you completely dismissing the possibility that someone might be less inclined to buy an album they already own than an album they don't yet own in any form? And if someone does feel that way that means they have no integrity? Have I got this right? You've said yourself that it's impossible to buy all the music you listen to so is it not reasonable to say that some people who don't pirate absolutely everything might prioritise buying an album they haven't got in their library over one they already own?
itsalltherage 11.11.13	'Doesn't that seem kind of like the "well everybody else is doing it, so it's ok" kind of attitude?' It's more of a 'well what the fuck can I actually do about it?' kinda attitude. The fact is, the music is there to download at your freewill if you please - I don't really subscribe to the immorality of doing so because the ones who are truly immoral are those who make it possible in the first place. You can either choose to keep it - or go out & purchase an album that you deem to be worth your money for whatever reason. I do both. I own almost 200 CDs - & for a 20 year old that's already a considerable investment & display of artist support that, quite frankly, dwarfs the collections of any of the people I have ever personally met in real life. So suggesting that I'm not doing my bit in purchasing albums purely because I download a lot of music just seems entirely invalid & ingnorant to me. Fact is, I appreciate high fidelity audio quality & like to listen to full albums at my convenience via my itunes or my ipod. Doing so essentially functions as your version of spotify/youtube whatever - it's literally having no different of an impact to the music industry in any way - & the advantage is I get to keep individual songs/albums that I enjoy even if I can't justify the purchase of the physical CD. So I mean yeah, maybe I'm a horrible immoral fuck for supporting piracy - but the fact is that without it, I wouldn't have discovered, nor consequently come to love, as vast an array of awesome music as I do.
JamieTwort 11.11.13	"If you yourself now admit to in fact having downloaded some of your music, then I'm not sure why we're actually arguing about piracy whatsoever as it's rather hypocritical." WE WERE DISCUSSING WHETHER OR NOT IT IS BETTER TO USE STREAMING OR PIRATING AS A WAY OF HEARING AN ALBUM BEFORE BUYING IT, NOT THE MORALS OF PIRATING OR WHETHER IT IS WRONG OR NOT. Sorry for the caps but I've already said this once so I wanted to make sure you see this.
neurisis17 11.11.13	"'well what the fuck can I actually do about it?" you can fucking have a shred of will power not to succumb to taking the easy way. I'll admit that I want to be able to listen to all the music that I've had a desire to hear. While it's totally possible for me to do so, not being able to listen to an illegal download on principle makes it much more gratifying in the end when I AM able to hear that album. If I choose to download all the music I want just because I can, the excitement of getting new music is lost.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	'Oh come on, seriously? You need to hear an album in the highest possible quality to be able to tell whether or not you want it? Half the pleasure I get from purchasing physical copies of albums is the experience of listening to it in full for the first time in the quality that the artist intended it to be heard. If I download an album first and listen to it in full that takes away the element of mystery of listening to an album that you've only streamed a couple of tracks from.' It doesn't have to be the highest possible quality out of necessity, of course not. But out of preference - yes I would rather listen to it in 320 if I can. & especially if it's for the first time, because I want to hear what I would hear on the album rather than some inferior stream & give myself every chance I possibly can to like it. Doing so only enhances the experience so like I said, why would you willingly choose to deprive yourself of that? The only 'mystery' I can discern is why you wouldn't want to listen to the album in full in as high quality as possible from the very first moment it hits your ears. 'Fuckin' lol. Are you completely dismissing the possibility that someone might be less inclined to buy an album they already own than an album they don't yet own in any form? And if someone does feel that way that means they have no integrity? Have I got this right? You've said yourself that it's impossible to buy all the music you listen to so is it not reasonable to say that some people who don't pirate absolutely everything might prioritise buying an album they haven't got in their library over one they already own?' Well in terms of the kind of integrity we are talking about here, in your belief to support the artist & just the general idea of appreciating music - yes, if you somehow decide that your favourite band in the world doesn't at least deserve to have you shell out $10 on their album, & you don't feel it would mean more to you to actually hold it your own hands - then you do severely lack integrity in your ideas of what music actually is & means to you. Like I said, if the sheer fact that you already have the album in your itunes affects how motivated you are to actually purchase it in physical form - despite how much you actually enjoy it - then that's merely a display of exactly what I have just outlined. I can only describe that as a notable lack of passion & I don't really have any understanding of that to be honest. Those 'some people' you're talking about - they're the actual problem here - not illegal downloading in itself.
lyzakthellama 11.11.13	If what you say is true than you're in the minority
JamieTwort 11.11.13	Haha, I don't even know how to respond to that. "if you somehow decide that your favourite band in the world doesn't at least deserve to have you shell out $10 on their album, & you don't feel it would mean more to you to actually hold it your own hands - then you do severely lack integrity in your ideas of what music actually is & means to you." Where did this come from? and by "you" are you referring to me or is that some kind of generalisation? Buying and listening to physical copies is obviously much more about the experience for me than it is for you, which is fair enough but don't suggest that I lack passion for music, if anything it looks like you're the one that lacks passion. You seem to have it in your head that because I skip the piracy part for albums I intend to buy that I am somehow immoral. I don't know if this a way of making yourself feel better about the whole piracy thing or what.
lyzakthellama 11.11.13	You seem to have it in your head that because I skip the piracy part for albums I intend to buy that I am somehow immoral. I don't know if this a way of making yourself feel better about the whole piracy thing or what. [2]
battleinthenorth 11.11.13	YouTube is fine
lyzakthellama 11.11.13	"I can't possibly comprehend how you would all be able to exist in a world where the music you have readily available to listen to is strictly limited to the music you can immediately purchase". This is literally every generation but our own despite the radio or borrowed albums. You don't need every album in the world and there are fucking legal ways to listen to music before purchasing. I can't understand how you can turn this around on us when you are the one defending piracy. Either you fairly, legally and as you yourself stated, morally obtain your music or you neglect those values and pirate music that is meant to be purchased.
neurisis17 11.11.13	Jesus Fuck... Closemindedness seems to have prevailed with itsalltherage.
itsalltherage 11.11.13	'Where did this come from? and by "you" are you referring to me or is that some kind of generalisation?' Yes it is a generalisation in direct response to your generalistion about people who would be reluctant to purchase albums in physical form if they already have it in their itunes. 'Buying and listening to physical copies is obviously much more about the experience for me than it is for you, which is fair enough but don't suggest that I lack passion for music, if anything it looks like you're the one that lacks passion.' How exactly did you deduce this? For me, purchasing an album is about appreciating the music enough that I want to have it in a tangible form that I can keep with me for the rest of my life - as well as supporting the artist with whatever crumbs manage to find their way back to them. If I happen to illegally download it & listen to it in that form first before purchasing it - how is the end result any different from what you are doing in listening to it on spotify prior to purchasing it? Basically, I have an unflinching desire to own every single one of the albums that I enjoy, but unfortunately I can only afford so many at a time. However, I don't believe my financial situation should limit the range of music available to me based purely on some rather convoluted moral grounds. Maybe it's different for you, maybe piracy is the plague of modern society in your eyes, but I see it as something that is abused by those who wish to abuse it. If I illegally download an album, & then go on to spend actual money on it as a result of liking it so much - how is that any worse than what you're doing in any way whatsoever? 'You seem to have it in your head that because I skip the piracy part for albums I intend to buy that I am somehow immoral. I don't know if this a way of making yourself feel better about the whole piracy thing or what.' Okay dude, where the fuck did I suggest that exactly? My underlying argument is that quality on spotify/youtube is inferior & I'm not quite able to comprehend why you would choose to listen to it on there first rather than getting your hands on a download that is of higher quality & more convenient for repeated extended listening sessions. The rest, you just seem to be making up as you go along.
slimdaddy 11.11.13	These paragraph blocks hurt my eyes. "that many modern musicians themselves have admitted they would rather you at least listen to & appreciate the music in it's intended form " The only bands that do this ^ are the bands that were not going to get heard in the first place. Either they don't have a label, or aren't popular. The only logical exception to this that I can think of is Streetlight Manifesto telling fans to pirate their new album because their label was withholding the copies the band could make money off of. And the reason they encouraged the piracy is because they themselves had already been screwed from getting the money.
JamieTwort 11.11.13	"How exactly did you deduce this?" Because by the time you purchase a physical copy you've already hear it in full and in the highest possible quality available to you, which must take something away from listening to your physical copy for the first time. For you it seems to be more about the feeling of having the physical copy in your collection which is fine, I like that part of it too. "I'm not quite able to comprehend why you would choose to listen to it on there first rather than getting your hands on a download that is of higher quality & more convenient for repeated extended listening sessions" Well then there's not much more I can say, I've explained why multiple times.
Amphoteric 11.11.13	I don't see anything wrong with YouTube or Spotify's quality if the main purpose for using them is to see if you like the music.. I mean unless it's 240p or 144p on YT or something like that, which most stuff is not. It really isn't bad enough to warrant illegally downloading it to see if you like it (Unless it isn't available on YT or Spotify, which is pretty rare these days). Also, if you do really like it and buy the physical copy, it sounds that much better hearing it in the higher quality of the disc or vinyl or whatever.
JamieTwort 11.11.13	"Okay dude, where the fuck did I suggest that exactly?" By questioning my integrity with regards to supporting my favourite artists, which is ridiculous when it's obvious (from what I've been saying) that I buy most of my music.
JamieTwort 11.11.13	"maybe piracy is the plague of modern society in your eyes" I've tried to explain that this is not the case but it still doesn't seem to be getting through to you.
JamieTwort 11.11.13	Shall we leave it there or would you like to continue going round in circles?
Parallels 11.11.13	With every album that I have downloaded, I have either bought the album or deleted it promtly off of my computer. Also, fuck spotify, youtube, etc.
demigod! 11.11.13	its pretty gay but sometimes its necessary
GnarlyShillelagh 11.12.13	"GnarlyShillelagh your view on labels seems a bit skewed." elaborate, por favor always down to widen the spectrum of knowledge i have on this esp as i know that my views are probably ignorant to a degree, so i'd like to know where the holes are. also, would it behoove me to read the long posts in this thread as well or are they regarding other shit
ILJ 11.12.13	ITT: "My way is correct, therefore yours is inherently wrong."
bach 11.12.13	I don't have a problem with it. Although I never youtube listen anymore because of Spotify.
qiblas 11.12.13	Thank me later http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhM9OeEcbQ
itsalltherage 11.12.13	'Because by the time you purchase a physical copy you've already hear it in full and in the highest possible quality available to you, which must take something away from listening to your physical copy for the first time.' Well yer I guess I don't really get that experience to the same extent as you do coming from a streaming perspective - cuz a lot of the magic generally comes the first time I hear an album since I always endeavour to ensure that if I'm taking the time to listen to it in full, it is in the highest quality possible to provide me with an optimal listening experience. So I'm not sure how it ruins it for me since the whole point is that it's going to be relatively true to what's on the CD - only that actual CD quality is going to be even better if I choose to be so discerning. I mean I get where you're coming from in that it sounds infinitely better once you hear it in full CD quality compared to spotify/youtube - of course it's going to. But that's purely about gulf in quality, & I solve that problem by hearing the a lot of the authentic magic of it the first time round. I duno, I mean I don't buy CDs for the superior quality alone - I buy them because I like the album. Don't really care if I've heard it beforehand in similar quality - that doesn't make the music any less special to me. 'By questioning my integrity with regards to supporting my favourite artists, which is ridiculous when it's obvious (from what I've been saying) that I buy most of my music.' That was relating to the point you made about people being reluctant to purchase a physical copy if they already have a high quality download in their possession. I'm now unsure if you meant that you fall into category following your more recent responses - but I mean yer - if the temptation of not purchasing an album is too much for you just cuz you already have it in your itunes, entirely despite the fact that you love it - then there is indeed something quite severely wrong with your outlook... You should support artists & purchase albums because you feel compelled to go out of your way to do so - not just for the sake of being able to say you're not stealing music.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	In any case, if you only listen to the music that you can afford to physically purchase, based on principles of morality & believing that it makes you a better person - well then fair enough if that's what you truly believe in - maybe that does make you a better person than myself. But to be perfectly honest, that doesn't really play on my conscience. Because the fact is, for all of these accusations of supporting piracy & such - at the end of the day I buy all of my favourite albums & the albums that I feel I would like to own in physical tangible form for the rest of my life - along with endeavouring to purchase whatever I can't currently afford at some point in the future where I can. It's all based on what I can afford, & how much I enjoy it to decide how much of a priority it is for me to own it - I own all of my 5s, 4.5s & 4s along with some 3.5s. If I only like one song, then no, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to buy the album. But does that mean I shouldn't be able to listen to the one song I do like? Maybe it does to you guys, but I'm certainly not going to impose those kinds of ludicrous limitations on my love for music. If everything that I'm saying means that I'm supporting piracy in your eyes - well then so be it. But you can't possibly make a valid accusation of me not purchasing the music I enjoy - because I have a 200 album strong CD collection that would indicate otherwise.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	It would also probably be quite beneficial for everyone involved if someone might be kind enough to let me know how I can prevent the spaces between my paragraphs from disappearing, cuz it honestly looks pretty painful having to read through the massive walls of text. Regardless of the vociferous nature of our views in this thread - I do commend & admire those who have done for getting through them.
neurisis17 11.12.13	"Elaborate por favor" I guess what I mean is that although there are many labels that really don't deserve the success that they have, if you search hard enough, there are a plentiful amount of labels that do what they can to help the artist because they believe in what the artist is doing, not because they have a potential for profit. These are record labels with integrity, and are genuinely helping the world of music by finding unique bands that have something (that the label feels) that will add something positive to music as a whole.
GnarlyShillelagh 11.12.13	ohh yeah for sure, i was being pretty narrow in my scope; i feel like a lot of people on the internet (not necessarily sputnik or other music-dedicated website) advocate buying albums from bands that are fairly well known but still not massive tier groups; oftentimes bands on major labels and in those circumstances... you know
neurisis17 11.12.13	yeah I see what you're saying though. There's a lotta bullshit when it comes to big time corporate labels.
JamieTwort 11.12.13	"ITT: "My way is correct, therefore yours is inherently wrong." Yeah that does seem to be the sum of it, although I'd like to add that this is not what I'm saying at all. I know a good number of people use the same method as itsalltherage does and my issue is not with his method but more that he has voiced a problem with my (and many other people's) method and refuses to accept that streaming music could be an equally appropriate (if not more so) way of checking out new music.
Gwyn. 11.12.13	I don't have a problem with it That was pretty much the only way I listened to music before going over to albums, I used to a singles person
JamieTwort 11.12.13	"I mean I get where you're coming from in that it sounds infinitely better once you hear it in full CD quality compared to spotify/youtube - of course it's going to. But that's purely about gulf in quality, & I solve that problem by hearing the a lot of the authentic magic of it the first time round How is this a 'problem' that needs solving in any way. Talk about closed mindedness, you seriously can't accept for a second that some people might choose/prefer to listen to a couple of songs of an album to determine whether it's worth devoting a certain amount of time to before hearing it in full and in higher quality?
itsalltherage 11.12.13	I'm not sure you've recognised all of my points fully either man. I'm fine with people doing that if they wish. That's their own perogative if they think spotify/youtube sounds good enough to give them a the full experience of immersing yourself in an album. It's certainly a hell of a lot better than not listening to it at all. The only reason I said downloading is better is due to the quality (I have a preference for 320 as standard) & convenience-of-form factors (being able to have it on my ipod in high quality). I only hold what some might say is a somewhat elitist audiophilic attitude - because for too long in my youth, I have largely overlooked a lot of albums for what I perceived was somewhat poor production & a harsh grainy textureless sound - when in reality it was just because a lot of heavier stuff sounded like shit to me at 128kbps or whatever when I had no genuine grasp of how quality affected things so drastically in some cases. Having been able to experience them in high quality years later, the clarity ceratinly helped me along the way in realising how awesome they actually are & how ridiculously naive I had been, so I do take it upon myself to ensure that I never make the same mistake again & therefore endeavour to listen to 320 on first full album listen as a general rule.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	If quality is disregarded - then either way since we're both buying the album in the end if we like it, my method & your method have no actual differing function or result - so we're arguing about semantics at this point in reality. The only reason this has been going around in circles is because you continued to keep posing the aforementioned argument that those who are already in possession of a high quality download will be deterred from actually buying a physical copy - & I merely made the point that you (generically i.e. any given individual) would be a lazy douchebag if you chose to act as such if the album is something that you truly enjoy or even love - because it does paint a pretty paltry picture of what music & albums actually mean to you if you're not compelled enough by the music itself above all to purchase an album in physical form. As I've said before, you should want to purchase albums because you think they deserve to be purchased based on enjoyment & personal value, regardless of whether they're already sitting in your itunes or not. To be perfectly honest, not doing so is just as perplexing a concept to me as my illegally downloading to get a first listen of albums in high quality is to you. But yer just because you're not illegally obtaining it/stealing it/whatever to get a first listen doesn't make it better somehow. Or at least I don't believe it does. That was the point you were trying to make against my own & have done for much of this thread - I was merely refuting your responses & providing my point of view.
JamieTwort 11.12.13	Well I guess that's the difference between you and me. I am able to tell if the production of an album is good or bad enough to influence my decision on getting an album by listening through Spotify. Shit production in 320 is still shit production and vice versa.
JamieTwort 11.12.13	"The only reason this has been going around in circles is because you continued to keep posing the aforementioned argument that those who are already in possession of a high quality download will be deterred from actually buying a physical copy - & I merely made the point that you (generically i.e. any given individual) would be a lazy douchebag if you chose to act as such if the album is something that you truly enjoy or even love - because it does paint a pretty paltry picture of what music & albums actually mean to you if you're not compelled enough by the music itself above all to purchase an album in physical form." So you're still saying that you can't accept that there's a possibility that IF you didn't download everything before buying it you wouldn't be swayed either way between buying an album you already own or an album you don't own in any form if you could only (at the time) afford one of the two albums in question?
JamieTwort 11.12.13	For me it's less about supporting the artists in many cases as albums I download are usually ones that I am unable to buy (either because they are out of print or only available second hand for extortionate amounts of money on ebay or something), so the artist wouldn't get any money from me anyway even if I did track down a pre-owned copy.
KILL 11.12.13	crazy thread
itsalltherage 11.12.13	Dude, I'm not sure about you - but I knew fuck all about production when I was 14. Music either sounded good or bad, that was how I largely differentiated. So when some shitty 128kbps metalcore song sounds tinny as fuck, & myself not having knowledge of 320 being significantly superior, I just thought that was how it was supposed to sound. However, having listened to music such as this again at a later point, I've realised how much better & more appealing songs generally are in higher quality. Say what you want, there are details that go missing at rates lower than 192. Higher than that & it's hardly a discernable difference, but I choose 320 as a standard because I don't see the point in settling for any less than that. At this furthered point in my life, of course 320 isn't a necessity to get a basic grasp of the general sound & mix. I still listen to singles & music videos on youtube & am able to comprehend them just fine. But as I've tried to outline, I'm merely saying I prefer 320 for full albums, therefore spotify & youtube are not ideal for my situation as I feel a high quality download is a superior experience for intially deciding whether an album is worth being purchased - & furthermore, the fact that it is an illegal download doesn't make any tangible difference if you end up deciding it's worth buying in any case. Likewise, you are saying that spotify is good enough for you as you don't care about high quality for a first listen. Great, you go Glen Coco. So what are we arguing about again?
itsalltherage 11.12.13	'So you're still saying that you can't accept that there's a possibility that IF you didn't download everything before buying it you wouldn't be swayed either way between buying an album you already own or an album you don't own in any form if you could only (at the time) afford one of the two albums in question?' Well that's kind of a confusing proposition you've given me, seeing as you say at first to consider the alternate reality wherein I don't download anything - & then go on to say that I have somehow already obtained an album, which I can only presume would be via purchase in this case given my limitations of downloading anything right? I'm not quite sure how to respond to that without some clarity... But in any case as I've tried to point out this entire time - in such a scenario where I would be forced to choose between purchasing two albums, only being able to afford one immediately, I would obviously choose the album that warrants it more in terms of it's content & my personal valuation of that. If I deem them to both be worth purchasing, then the slightly weaker one will be the next purchase on my list. If I don't deem it enjoyable enough to be worth the physical purchase, then I won't. Simple as that.
JamieTwort 11.12.13	"Well that's kind of a confusing proposition you've given me, seeing as you say at first to consider the alternate reality wherein I don't download anything - & then go on to say that I have somehow already obtained an album, which I can only presume would be via purchase in this case given my limitations of downloading anything right?" Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. I meant if you didn't download EVERYTHING first and you were faced with that scenario having downloaded one album and perhaps streamed the other (which I'm sure is a scenario a lot of other people who don't EXCLUSIVELY pirate before buying would face at some time or another). "So what are we arguing about again?" I think were arguing about whether it is plausible that some people might be more inclined to buy music if they stream it as opposed to if they pirate it. Which a couple of people earlier in this thread proved. So I guess there's no point in going any further as that part of it has already been settled in that it clearly depends on the person, which was basically my point, streaming over downloading CAN have a positive effect on the music industry and as a result is something many artists support.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	Okay yer well given that scenario, just as I have stated above, so long as I have actually heard both albums in some form beforehand, I would decide whether they are both worth buying or not, & if so, choose whichever I decided is worth more value to me - like I said, the fact that it already resides in my possession/itunes has no effect whatsoever on my motivation to purchase a physical copy unless it's something that I don't deem worthy of my money at all in any case. For example, if I had a 4.5 already downloaded & had a stream of what seemed to be a 4 - & I could only purchase one immediately - then I would purchase the 4.5 in every instance. If I think the album is genuinely enjoyable enough for it to warrant a physical purchase, then I will buy the album. It's a matter of inevitability as opposed to any real consideration, because if I undoubtedly enjoy both albums in that scenario, & I choose to buy the one I have only streamed first - I'm still going to be just as motivated to purchase the one I already have as a high quality download as the very next album on my list. If you're suggesting as you seem to be that many other people would only bother purchasing the album (that's a 4) that they don't own in any form already & choose to keep the high quality download without any actual intention of ever purchasing it in physical form - despite it being a 4.5 & one of their most enjoyable albums they've ever heard - well as I've reiterated multiple times - those very individuals & that convoluted mindset is the issue with illegal downloading.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	The real problem doesn't lie in the existence of online downloading, but in those individuals that choose to abuse it without any intention of ever buying any music. Regardless of circumstance, it seems that those who fall into this category will always find a way to obtain a music without paying, one way or another. So listening to it on spotify first isn't really going to alter their attitude on purchasing music in physical form so long as a free download is available to them somehow, somewhere. There's nothing either of us can do about this right now unfortunately...& in reality, they're only cheating themselves out of the experience of being a true supportive element & fan of their favourite band's. It's up to them if that's the life they choose to lead. I on the other hand would be unable to exist in such a way, because I frankly feel far too strongly about my favourite bands & albums for me to ever stop purchasing the music I love in the form of a nice little CD with a neat booklet of lyrics & notes & awesome artwork; & just the whole general experience that comes with owning a record & being able to call it yours as such. To deprive myself of all of that, would be utterly unthinkable.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	So I guess there's no point in going any further as that part of it has already been settled in that it clearly depends on the person, which was basically my point, streaming over downloading CAN have a positive effect on the music industry and as a result is something many artists support.' Well do you agree that the exact same, in the form of downloading being superior to streaming, can be true for an individual such as myself who values quality & convenience-of-form prevailing factors in the inital decision making process involved with a potential album purchase? Because that has been the actual point I've been trying to hammer home in the opposite direction for much of this thread. It is merely a superior alternative for those reasons, not an entirely necessary one if you have no regard for those as factors. I just envisioned many people would care about those things, but I guess I'm in the minority as I usually happen to find myself. Anyway, if you agree with that point just the same, well then I guess we are indeed done here.
JamieTwort 11.12.13	"If you're suggesting as you seem to be that many other people would only bother purchasing the album (that's a 4) that they don't own in any form already & choose to keep the high quality download without any actual intention of ever purchasing it in physical form - despite it being a 4.5 & one of their most enjoyable albums they've ever heard - well as I've reiterated multiple times - those very individuals & that convoluted mindset is the issue with illegal downloading." Yes I am suggesting that this is a possible scenario amongst many people (although I wouldn't be quite as harsh on them as I can understand it to an extent, especially if it was a situation where most of the money wouldn't go to the artists anyway, thus taking any feelings of integrity out of the equation). And this is why I feel streaming an album first will have some positive effects with regards to a number of people who feel like this. "Well do you agree that the exact same, in the form of downloading being superior to streaming, can be true for an individual such as myself who values quality & convenience-of-form prevailing factors in the inital decision making process involved with a potential album purchase?" Yes I can agree with that, and I hope you can agree that the method I have been arguing can be better on several levels (including for the music industry) when used by other individuals who think differently to you.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	...paragraphs disappeared again so reposting...
Weirman 11.12.13	I believe KILL said it best...
itsalltherage 11.12.13	'Yes I am suggesting that this is a possible scenario amongst many people... this is why I feel streaming an album first will have some positive effects with regards to a number of people who feel like this.' Okay so if I understand correctly you are condoning this behaviour because you feel that yourself in the same situation would feel similar temptation? Well I'm trying to make the point that it's a rather perplexing mindset to possess if you really care about the music & albums you buy. More so that the pure fact of whether you listened to it via the download in your itunes or spotify for the first time shouldn't actually factor into your decision-making process when it comes to purchasing it in physical form. Surely you recognise that the attitude isn't quite right in saying otherwise? 'Yes I can agree with that, and I hope you can agree that the method I have been arguing can be better on several levels (including for the music industry) when used by other individuals who think differently to you.' I agree that it's a wonderful thing to have around in this day & age, in that numerous songs by numerous different artists are available for free streaming. I essentially regard it the same way as I do youtube for music, since I don't use it myself. It is definitely brilliant in that it makes music readily available to the masses who might otherwise be unaware of it's existence at all. That can only be a good thing for the exposure of bands & the future of the music industry. What I disagree with is that it is in any way superior to the method of downloading it in high quality format as part of the initial decision-making process for the purchase of a CD. Like I said the premise of people being weak-minded individuals doesn't hold validity for me because I would like to hope that most of those who truly love music would not allow themselves to fall into that category by choice. & the fact is that higher quality & a more convenient form are always going to be a superior listening experience. But assuming that you don't care about either of those factors, which is fine if that's the case - then regardless of any self-righteous moral principles that may be of value to an individual - the ultimate result of an album being enjoyed enough to be purchased is undeniably entirely identical in every which way whichever method you personally subscribe to. We both apparently buy a lot of our music, so we're essentially on the same team at the end of the day dude.
JamieTwort 11.12.13	You've said all of this before so I'm not going to bother replying to most of it. A few things I will say however: "Okay so if I understand correctly you are condoning this behaviour because you feel that yourself in the same situation would feel similar temptation?" No I'm not condoning anything. One question I will leave you with as you seem so concerned about integrity and morals: If streaming (such as Spotify) was the only available way of listening to music online and piracy was not an option, do you think more people would buy their music? If your answer to that question is yes then I think that proves my point that generally people who stream music rather than download it are more likely to purchase it afterwards. This is not the case with you clearly as you buy most of your music anyway (and props for that) but I think there are many people that this would apply to.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	I've only had to re-iterate these points incessantly multiple times over & over again as you haven't really acknowledged nor addressed a lot of them despite this. Personally, my idea of integrity & morals seems to differ distinctly from yours. I honestly could give two shits about any kind of formalised law, & consequently what is typically perceived as 'morality' associated with it. I only really care about & abide to my own moral code as that is the one that I live by on a daily basis. Maybe that makes me a bad person in some of my beliefs to some people, but oh well, I'm not entirely caught up in some self-righteous ideals of going out of my way to make a particular impression for anyone for the sake of being seen as an inherently 'good person'. That just doesn't really appeal to me. I guess that's why I'm not hung up on piracy the way yourself & others are, because the fact is it is going to exist regardless of my beliefs - so I might as well use it in a way that is conducive to myself in the process of discovering, exploring & consequently purchasing the music that I truly enjoy. So long as I feel like I'm giving the albums that manage to qualify for it, their deserved & justified treatment of being obtained in physical form; the fact that I illegally download things does not play on my mind whatsoever. If streaming were the only available way of listening to music online, & thusly the only actual way to obtain high quality music in any kind of form would be to purchase CDs, then yes, quite obviously individuals are going to be forced to buy the music, because it's the only option they have if they ever want to listen to it again. But the fact is that this is all theoretical & not really comparable to the current situation or climate. It certainly shows no indication whatsoever that people who stream music rather than download it are more likely to purchase afterwards, when the scenario you depicted doesn't account for the existence of downloads as an alternative at all & therefore there is no actual choice involved.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	The fact is streaming exists & piracy exists in the world we live in - neither is going to disappear anytime soon. So you have to think about the reality of this situation rather than an ideal world that is some way from coming to fruition. I mean, what about the people who go onto spotify to check out an album - enjoy it - then proceed to download it off a music blog, never even contemplating the physical copy? People who use spotify have just as much perogative & ability to do that instead of purchasing the actual album - just as much as anyone who has a high quality download deciding to keep it without ever any intention of purchase. You have to recognise that there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between using spotify & piracy to listen to an album, when the only defining factor in that album being conclusively purchased or not - is how much that person really wants the CD & how much it would mean to them to actually own it & feel it in their hands. It's all down to the individual to choose to purchase something, I think you're just kidding yourself if you think that listening to it on spotify makes it an any more likely scenario to result in a CD purchase than if they had a high quality download already. Just cuz you have the files in your itunes, doesn't mean you own the record. & it's up to the people of this earth to decide whether that differentiation is worth something to them when it comes to their favourite music, or not. At the end of the day the issue we are dealing with in reality is not the method of the initial listening process, as we seem to be bickering about quite redundantly - but the actual mindset of the individuals who decide that even the music that they enjoy & love doesn't mean enough to them to own it in physical form - which is truly quite tragic. That is the real case of injustice at play here that affects the music industry so negatively & exponentially today.
JamieTwort 11.12.13	"I'm not entirely caught up in some self-righteous ideals of going out of my way to make a particular impression for anyone for the sake of being seen as an inherently 'good person'. That just doesn't really appeal to me." Well that definitely doesn't appeal to me either. The reason I buy music in physical form has nothing to with morals or feeling like a good person. I do it because I enjoy it. "It's all down to the individual to choose to purchase something, I think you're just kidding yourself if you think that listening to it on spotify makes it an any more likely scenario to result in a CD purchase than if they had a high quality download already." I think you're the one kidding yourself by saying that it's not possible that some people might think like this.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	'Well that definitely doesn't appeal to me either. The reason I buy music in physical form has nothing to with morals or feeling like a good person. I do it because I enjoy it.' Well that's awesome because that's exactly how it should be. Which is why I don't quite understand how you could ever find yourself in a situation where you would lose the incentive to purchase an album purely due to the fact you already have it in the form of a high quality download. That's the thing I keep tripping over in your arguments, because to do so would contradict everything you seem to have affirmed to me that you fully believe in when it comes to music. & yes, there will inevitably be people like this who do not entirely care for those kinds of ideals - but what I'm saying is those people are the issue, rather than the method of initial listening. 'I think you're the one kidding yourself by saying that it's not possible that some people might think like this.' Well I would be utterly perplexed as to why that would be the case for anyone, due to the aforementioned fact that there is tangibly no difference whatsoever in listening to it on spotify & listening to it via hq download (disregarding quality & convenience) when the ultimate result is either you enjoy it enough that you decide to purchase it, or not. I'm just not sure how listening to it on spotify would give me any more incentive to spend money on an album as opposed to listening to it from a download, when the only thing that matters is if I genuinely feel the album is deserving of my money.
lyzakthellama 11.12.13	What you have to realize is that if most people already have the download they aren't going to buy it. You're talking as if everyone has a passion for music and thinks about supporting the artists and getting the music industry out of this slump but thats simply not true and most people download not for a quality first listen but rather to have the album without paying for it. Thats why pirating is illegal, thats why its a plague and that is why your argument, while it may be true for you, is irrelevant when speaking of the masses. Jesus christ end this
SmersH 11.12.13	why is this still going? does this really matter?
JamieTwort 11.12.13	Fuck it, I'm leaving it there.
itsalltherage 11.12.13	I do realise that some people may choose that path, but what I'm saying is that if they do choose to do so, were those same people really actually more likely to purchase an album just because they heard it on spotify first? I just don't see that being the case in the vast majority of instances. Money is money, if people would rather get away with paying nothing for albums, & don't value the experience of owning the physical CD enough to warrant an actual purchase, then those are the same people who will find a way to get it for free somehow someway in any case. You're not going to be able to convert what are their inherently wrong beliefs purely by getting them to stream it first instead. That's the entire point, that those actual people, those individuals & their mindset & beliefs are the problem with the industry, not just illegal downloading in itself. True fans support the bands they love, & I would like to think that the vast majority of us, certainly on this site, fall into that category to some extent or another. Maybe as a musician I'm just naturally being a little over optimistic in that assumption & hope. I don't talk as if everyone in the world has a passion for music, I only know a select number of individuals in real life who could lay claim to being as such, but what I am specifically saying is that those who do have an innate sense of appreciation, adoration & integrity towards the music that they enjoy - should want to purchase the albums they enjoy because they warrant the actual purchase, redgardless of the source they heard it from first. & the ones who aren't passionate about music - well I mean what can you really do about that - they're either going to wake up & get it one day, or not. For those that never do - well I honestly pity them more than anything to be honest.
Amphoteric 11.12.13	Wow this thread has become a novel
neurisis17 11.13.13	Yeah it was a drier read than fucking Moby Dick.
conesmoke 11.13.13	i'm gunna lighten the mood here and agree that 5 is fucking awesome. So soothing and meditative whilst retaining its edginess so well. m/
neurisis17 11.13.13	^hell yeah man! glad there is finally a productive exchange in this thread (since itsalltherage refuses to budge on his side of a circular argument)... we have indeed concluded that Om is fucking sweet