Butkuiss: The 11 Doctors, Ranked

Butkuiss 08.13.13	From memory, for posterity. Hopefully 12 gets some decent writing and development.
Rowan5215 08.13.13	Smith, McCoy and Davison are way too low imo, and Tennant's too high.
Butkuiss 08.13.13	Smith and Davison are meant to be fairly low. I could never get into them compared to some of the others. And The Waters of Mars is easily the best Who episode ever written. Tennant's performance in it earns him third spot alone.
Rowan5215 08.13.13	Tennant's a fantastic actor but not Top 3 for me, I never really thought he portrayed anger that well plus I didn't like the character of Ten that much. Smith and Davison are the cream of the crop imo and two of my all-time favourite actors. Nice to see you put Eccleston so high though, he's underrated as fuck.
Butkuiss 08.13.13	If Eccleston had the writing Tennant later got he could've easily been the best Doctor ever. Shame he left so fast. As for Davison, I just never enjoyed his character too much, though I'm rewatching the classic series for the first time in yonks right now, so my opinion might change. As for Smith, his writing and characterisation are just bad. The beginning of Season 6 saved him a little but other than that I'm just not a fan of Moffatt's run.
Rowan5215 08.13.13	I prefer Moffat to Davies but just me I guess. Smith is a fantastic actor either way. Agreed that Eccleston left way too soon.
FerinusCarnifexVox 08.14.13	Inb4 tennant fangirls 2 is 1 [2]
Butkuiss 08.14.13	@Rowan: I was talkig about this with some guys from sput a few days ago on fb. I'll paste some of that convo because it sums up the bulk of my argument. Apologies for the length ...I have a lot of issues with the reboot series in general, but where RTD at least tried to give the series thoughtful treatment it seems like Moffatt just treats it as his giant cash cow.Â For example, the weak character writing. Almost every female character in Moffatt's run (Amy, River, Clara the main offenders) has been defined by a disturbingly obsessive relationship with the doctor, with little to no idividuality or interesting development apart from this. The creepy Lolita themes included in the backstory to those three companions just makes it all the more weak. Amy meets him as a child, and is so obsessed with him over a decade later that she tries to seduce him the night before her wedding. River is raised from birth to kill the doctor, and when she abandons that goal, she immediately changes from an obsessive desire to kill to a creepy obsessive love. And Clara's existence is defined by saving the doctor's life over and over again.Â And it's not just limited to post-series 5 either. Moffatt's portrayal of Madam Du Pompadour was pretty much the same. He tars all female characters with the same brush and creates a giant Mary Sue-niverse for the Doctor...
Butkuiss 08.14.13	...He also loves ignoring common sense and established lore. I can excuse discrepancies with the classic series, which are understandable, but having one episode revolve around the danger in touching a past version of yourself lest the universe implode, and then showing the doctor doing just that a few episodes later is lazy writing.Â Not to mention all the nonsense Deus Ex Machina Moffatt has going on in his series finales, especially shit like The Wedding of River song, or the dubious cracks in time. RTD had a similar problem but there was at least a sense of gravity to the choices the 9th and 10th Doctor made. With the 11th, it seems that simply whipping out your sonic screwdriver three minutes before hte episode ends is sufficient to solve any problem.Â I also feel like Moffatt's doctors lack depth and complexity. RTD seemed to try to take the series in a more mature direction, examining the shellshocked, furious psyche of the 9th (my favourite reboot), and 10's descent into megalomania. The 11th doctor spends half his time being quirky and advocating mercy and the other half ruthlessly ordering the death of characters like Solomon without so much as an explanation as to why he abandoned his aversion to violence.Â I could sit here all day writing about plot points ripped from the classic series and lore discrepancies and information paradoxes, but I'll stop. And it's sad, because the first few episodes of Season 6 were among the best of the reboot series, but there's just so much shit amongst the gems I don't feel it's worth watching any more.
Butkuiss 08.14.13	Tl;dr impeach Moff pls
Rowan5215 08.14.13	Well I'm sad that you feel that way but oh well, I know that I'll always.watch it no matter what. I would discuss in detail happily with you but I'm sputphoning at school so maybe later man.
Butkuiss 08.14.13	Nah, all good. I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts. Anytime, dude. And yeah, I know the feeling. I'm doing the same at uni.
Rowan5215 08.14.13	Lol when I get back I could discuss for hours but you know. I'm always happy to discuss my favourite show after all.
Butkuiss 08.20.13	Hit it Rowan.
Rowan5215 08.20.13	Alright brah let's do this. Suppose I'll start with my list of the Doctors ranked, best to worst: Smith McCoy Eccleston Davison Troughton T. Baker Tennant Hartnell McGann Pertwee C. Baker While I think all of them are fantastic actors and the first four are pretty much tied, I find some of the characterisation of them to be irritating which influences where they're ranked. Particularly Tennant, who's a brilliant actor and would be higher except at points I couldn't stand his Doctor, all those little "I'm brilliant" and "I'm so clever" moments fucking annoyed me and didn't really amount to any sort of catharsis or moment of realisation like Smith's rage moments do.
Rowan5215 08.20.13	I found that T. Davies really struggled with characters sometimes, like Rose who's one of my most hated characters ever and Martha who wasn't much better, then on the other hand he made minor characters like Mickey, Jack and Wilf WAY more likeable than the actual companions (Donna excluded) that I wished that the lead companion would just fuck off and we could have a team of Mickey, Jack and the Ninth Doctor (for example). Additionally, T. Davies was really terrible at ending episodes; he would build up a fantastic cliffhanger and have no idea how to resolve it so he just fell back on the old Deus Ex Machina (Last of the Time Lords and the Next Doctor being the most potent examples) which pisses me off cos I know he could be a fantastic writer when he tried (Turn Left and Midnight).
Butkuiss 08.20.13	See, but I don't feel like Smith's rage moments hit it for me either. Also, the continuity in Moffat's stories makes no sense a lot of the fucking time, which really grates on me. Maybe because I'm studying science and everything there has to make perfect sense. I Don't know. The thing I loved most about RTD was how well he treated minor characters like Jack, Mickey and Wilf. Rose was irritiating, Martha was better, but Donna took the cake as far as New Who companions go. I actually got a sense of RTD trying to improve the characters as he went along, whereas companions like Amy just feel the same. every. episode. As for the Deus Ex Machina, I feel like the cracks in time and The Wedding of River Song's 'It was all a dream!' ending are far worse than the cheesiness of The Next Doctor, say. I find it weird you rank Pertwee and Hartnell so low though. What gives?
Rowan5215 08.20.13	Hartnell was brilliant but not deserving enough to be higher than the others on the list, that's pretty much the only way I can put it. As for Pertwee, love him as an actor but the character of the Third Doctor never did much for me, he was a little bit too human. As for the above, I know that Moffat's episodes don't make sense a lot of the time but then again the show IS about a time-travelling alien in a police box, you can't expect perfect science. Not to mention that Davies wasn't too crash-hot at that either, I mean Rose had the time vortex in her for like ten minutes with no effect and the Doctor has it in him for like half a minute and it kills him. Smith's rage moments are pretty much my favourite parts of the show, partly because he's my favourite actor and he absolutely shines in the angry moments and partly because I feel they're always well executed (A Town Called Mercy, for example) and not overused like Tennant's I'M SO CLEVER moments. As for the characters, yeah I agree that he handled minor characters well but that was kinda my point, that the minor ones were so much more likeable that the main ones. Rose should've burned in hell for eternity as far as I'm concerned, whereas Mickey and Jack were completely wasted.
tommygun 08.20.13	u guys forgot mcdreamy :3
Rowan5215 08.20.13	Dammit tommy, don't be joking around in this thread this is srs busness bruh.
tommygun 08.20.13	i never joke
Rowan5215 08.20.13	that's a damn lie and you know it
Butkuiss 08.20.13	I kind of feel like better fleshed out minor characters is a huge strength that RTD has going for him though. It just makes him seem like he actually cares about the show. I can name so many great companions from the first four series that were absolutely stunning, like Jack, Mickey, Wilf, but also River (before Series 5), Adelaide, Jackson Lake, Adam, Lynda, Chantho, Jenny. The list goes on. I can't name a single side character from Moffat's run though, besides Madame Kovarian, and only then because of the amount of fucking stupidity and unresolved plot that she has. I don't know. I know that Moff and RTD are about the same when it comes to continuity and sense-making, but I feel like RTD at least tried to explain what was going on, whereas Moff's solution is just to ignore it and keep ploughing forward, and the show suffers for it in my opinion.
Rowan5215 08.20.13	I think Moffat leaves a bit open to interpretation which I like. And you do realise River was his creation right? Even before Series 5, Davies had nothing to do with her characterisation whatsoever. Also Jack's first episode was a Moffat episode, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, which may be worth bearing in mind. Personally, I think Rory is one of the best characters the show's ever had, and my main problem with Moffat's run is how under-utilised he was. I agree that River nowadays and Amy weren't brilliant, but I just couldn't help adoring Rory.
Butkuiss 08.20.13	Nah, I get that, but RTD still had creative direction. Silence In The Library was just plain awesome, and I'm not denying that Moff is a good writer, just that I don't like where he takes things when he has complete creative control. As for Rory, he was just a yawn for me. I never much gravitated towards him. I'm tired of New Who treating male companions as tagalongs to the females, something Mickey and Rory were especially victim of.
Rowan5215 08.20.13	That's true indeed, I would like a male companion who could stand on their own, maybe under Capaldi that could work. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, but we can agree at least that both eras have their strengths and weaknesses. Plus we can agree that best show ever : )
Butkuiss 08.20.13	I'm excited for Capaldi. Hopefully the show will return to melancholy and darkness instead of being happy fest. Nah, Firefly is best show evar. Who is close though. ;)
Rowan5215 08.20.13	I would hardly call Moffat's run a happy fest lol, there's some dark stuff in there. If anything, I'd say Davies was the happy fest (cough Slitheen Absorbaloff cough). But nevertheless I am excited for Capaldi and I really hope the show does get darker. Never seen Firefly :/
Butkuiss 08.20.13	Nah, I feel like RTD touched some really dark topics (genocide in Turn Left, human paranoia in midnight, etc) but did it while making fart jokes. Moff seems to steer away from that towards safer, more cliche fairytale tropes, but does it deadpan. Save for stupid references to custard and fish fingers and pointy hairstyles and whatnot. Firefly is brilliant, man.
Rowan5215 08.20.13	RTD's darker episodes were his best for sure (the two you mentioned are the highlight of the episodes penned by him for me) but they were just glimpses of the potential he had to write darker material that for the most part he stayed away from. On the other hand, I truly believe that the Eleventh Doctor would completely fuck up a whole galaxy or race if he was aggravated enough which is much much darker that Tennant's era. Just look at him blowing up the fleet of Cybermen, or the times when he goes crazy at Colonel Manton and Kovarian. He's truly a madman below the surface which is what I love about him. I'll check out Firefly sometime cos I know Joss Whedon can deliver. Are you an X-Files fan?
Chrisjon89 08.20.13	I came in here expecting Dr Pepper and Dr Dre. maybe Dr Colossus. this list is much more sensible.
Rowan5215 08.20.13	Agreed, DW > soft drinks.
Butkuiss 08.20.13	I could just never get into Davison. I don't know whether it was the cricket ball or the outfit or what.
wafagan 10.16.13	Personal Favorites, in Descending Order: 1: Tom Baker: Face it, Tom Baker is the Doctor 2: Matt Smith: A collage of every doctor proceeding him, he still makes the Doctor seem fresh. 3: David Tennant: The Doctor I grew up with, so of course he's high-ranking. 4: Sylvester McCoy 5: Patrick Troughton: McCoy and Troughton. Two short men with big minds and bigger senses of humor. McCoy's good humor hid a sinister cunning, while Troughton was all bluster and pratfalls (such as incorrectly reassembling Jamie's face in 'The Mind Robber'). 6: Colin Baker: He looked stupid and he tried to kill his first companion. On the other hand, 'Vengeance on Varos' is terrific. 7: Christopher Eccleston: If he'd stuck around a bit, I might have liked him a bit more. He just came and went too quick to leave an impression on me. 8: Tom Pertwee: Too James Bond for my tastes. Where's the slapstick humor and wordplay of the other Doctors? He just spouts sci-fi gobbledy-gook and karate-kicks aliens in the face. Props for Roger Delgado as the Master, though. 9:Peter Davison: This period was just marked by crap acting. CoughNyssaCough Plus, Adric is annoying. 10: William Hartnell: He was good, but he wasn't the Doctor. He basically kidnapped his first companions. I am not ranking Paul McGann because I have not seen the TV Movie