Mike08: Roger Ebert Died Yesterday

peaks40 04.05.13	not my favorite critic, he's alright. R.I.P. i have to see la dolce vita
theacademy 04.05.13	i liked him way more 5 years ago still sad that he's dead but he said some unforgivably narrow minded things about video games and their place in "art" that i just was never able to get past rip
cagedescending 04.05.13	^that x100000000000000000
Gwyn. 04.05.13	what acad said
peaks40 04.05.13	acad nailed it
evilford 04.05.13	rip
MrElmo 04.05.13	Waking Life is definitly an amazing and underrated movie
BallsToTheWall 04.05.13	I give his death a 3 and a 1/2 out of 5.
peaks40 04.05.13	^^^^ lmao
Mike08 04.05.13	Acad (4) Funny how you nailed my thoughts exactly. I am still impressed with his writing. Especially since he had to write hundreds of reviews saying "This movie sucked." There's only so many variations of that statement.
theacademy 04.05.13	what balls said
BallsToTheWall 04.05.13	Roger Ebert's demise was a emotionally gripping and beautifully shot film with a strong production team and ensemble cast to compliment his great presence. Tension was high, morale was consistently bleak and the story never lost focus. A deep, compelling film that will touch the hearts of many.
theacademy 04.05.13	i think film, music, and games are basically the same in their capacities to be "art"
Gwyn. 04.05.13	art's an extremely subjective thing anyway
peaks40 04.05.13	^^^
Atari 04.05.13	RIP. Always kind of wanted to be a movie critic growing up used to always read his reviews.
anarchistfish 04.05.13	really sad
peaks40 04.05.13	@lakes yeah, and i fucking can't stand it. they dont get it. so stupid
WashboardSuds 04.05.13	everything's art rip
BallsToTheWall 04.05.13	even masturbation.
peaks40 04.05.13	^ the best one
WashboardSuds 04.05.13	especially
anarchistfish 04.05.13	don't start this fucking argument up again,
kris. 04.05.13	i understand where he's coming from with games not being art, but lemme know how many 60 year olds you knew that thought video games were art the man was a fantastic writer and didn't deserve the pain he went through, just glad it's over for him rip
SitarHero 04.05.13	I didn't always agree with Ebert, and some of his most hated movies are some of my most enjoyable, but I could always relate to his joy for motion pictures and his writing. His website is one of my go-to websites when I'm bored. It's actually bumming me out majorly that I won't ever be able to hop on over and read a new review. Damn...
illmitch 04.05.13	lol mad gamers he was a fucking amazing critic and amazing writer
MrElmo 04.05.13	Such a debate is sterile in this thread but hey.... What is art? a market, an expression, an aesthetic, an inter-subjective eidos, a cruel and honest creation that mocks the sensible reality and the human opinion.
foxblood 04.05.13	never heard what he said about vidya games but he was def alright, he worked really hard in the face of his illness RIP
Mike08 04.05.13	http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html If your interested foxblood
wabbit 04.05.13	lol people thinking video games are art
Romulus 04.05.13	loved his writing
wabbit 04.05.13	that's worse than saying reality television is art
kris. 04.05.13	i mean there are a few games i would consider to be art like okami or shadow of the colossus or i mean bioshock infinite holy shit but most of them are AAA boom explosions everywhere michael bay blockbuster shit
illmitch 04.05.13	i think there are games that can be considered art but my disagreeing with roger ebert on that matter doesn't detract from what a genius and genuinely amazing human being he was
foxblood 04.05.13	well okay yeah that's awful, arguing over what is art is completely silly. but regardless, it doesn't negate his long successful career
Scoot 04.05.13	"This movie doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't below the bottom of the barrel. This movie doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with barrels."
Yotimi 04.05.13	why is okami and shadow of the colossus art but not mario or zelda? What is art? Is art art?
wabbit 04.05.13	I just think the whole thing shouldn't be considered art Like how is Quake 2 art? It's much closer to something like darts or poker than music or literature. Sure they use art to make games but that's like saying football is art before they were uniforms.
illmitch 04.05.13	i think sports played at the highest level are artistic as fuck
Yotimi 04.05.13	There's always going to be good art and bad art, but I think it's pretty obvious that games can be art. Why can't Quake 2 be art? If a designer put his soul into the creation of the game then sure I'd call that art.
WashboardSuds 04.05.13	'If a designer put his soul into the creation of the game then sure I'd call that art.' yea this. also okami is a truly gorgeous game, not just visually
WeepingBanana 04.05.13	"It's much closer to something like darts or poker than music or literature." uhhhh i mean i've never played quake 2 but narrative video games have about 92873492374 more in common with literature than it does with darts or poker.
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	Journey and Shadow of the Colossus are art.
cagedescending 04.05.13	Q2 obviously isn't quite art, it's just fragging shit with no greater meaning. visually it's atmospheric for sure, but the overall purpose of the game is just to have fun on the other hand, something like Metal Gear Solid 2 IS art. it's shot through with subtext and allegory and uses post-modernism as a narrative device. even much of the gameplay itself serves to make a point about various issues like solipsism, epistemology and nationalism the delivery isn't quite up to quality literary standards, but the artistic intent is clearly there
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	Its just dumb because how can somebody say the thousands of shit movies that have been released are anywhere close to "art". Theres good and bad video games like anything else. I dont even play them anymore but theres some that are definitely without question works of art.
ViralOblivion 04.05.13	Fuck I love waking life so underrated
WashboardSuds 04.05.13	yea waking life is awesome. in conveying the message about lucid dreams they made a movie that really feels like a lucid dream
cagedescending 04.05.13	exactly Yank, i mean who could honestly call Transformers 2 'art'? there are films meant to ask questions and films meant to be popcorn fodder, and it's the same for video games. it's just that VG are a form of media that haven't had as much time to mature as film/literature so there are fewer examples of substance
wabbit 04.05.13	But I mean all the best video games are PvP not PvE And pvp is absolutely not art so all the best video games aren't art
WashboardSuds 04.05.13	you're spot-on, cage
Kman418 04.05.13	I consider anything that was made with a creative intent in mind that somehow transfers emotions art, so yeah all games are art. The only difference is some of it is really really shitty art, that doesn't change the fact that it's still art though.
MrElmo 04.05.13	Thirty flights of love ain't no entertaining dart game and the visuals on games like Cat Lady or Okami are true art, also games with a narrative like weeping says have in common with art like litterature or movies. Also one of the main issues Ebert had with Video Games was that they can be finished and completed, unlike litterature and music (that we can be rediscovered at will), with the existence of random games that can change constantly (like say, minecraft) games can be endless. But it is true that video games, just like music, movies, architecture, paintings, etc... can either be entertainment or functional (and be created for a simple purpose, to please an audience and be lucrative) or be art (with it's creators creating for their own artistic purpose/vision)
wabbit 04.05.13	and even pve is still a competition against the game (or yourself) that's just so radically different from anything else we call art. And yes you can make the rare case for something like journey but that's just such a small fraction of what video games are it's stupid to use that as your case
WeepingBanana 04.05.13	"exactly Yank, i mean who could honestly call Transformers 2 'art'?" well it IS art, it's just bad art
wabbit 04.05.13	Plus video games are different for everyone who plays it on an objective level something else that doesn't exist in any other "artform" Video games are essentially more evolved than art (not that that means better) I don't know why anyone would feel the need to call them art.
illmitch 04.05.13	couldn't you argue that the fact that everybody who approaches a piece of artwork or a novel has a different interpretation to it and brings their own personal experience is basically the same as people playing video games differently?
MrElmo 04.05.13	Wabbit, you have now admitted that video games can be art, just that there isn't much, at the moment that is, with the rise of indie games and the democratization of the tools to make video games I really do think that more and more art games will come to light, look at sword and sworcery or the next game from the bloke who made braid
cagedescending 04.05.13	if everyone shared that mindset wabbit, games never would become legitimately recognised as art the strong examples at the moment are few and far between (although if you noticed there have already been a fair few pointed out itt, and there are more like Pathlologic, Planescape, Spec Ops: The Line) but if they're encouraged rather than marginalised like you're doing then maybe progress could be made
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	Im sorry but there is no argument for me that video games arent art. Many graphics and story lines are great. Whats the difference between playing them rather than just watching them? Even simple games like Tetris and Pacman are art to me. They've had a major impact on our culture. Im not reading that whole ebert article but I dont see any reasoning.
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	Limbo and The Unfinished Swan are some more indie games that are heavily art influenced. Those are like the only kind of games I like playing now ha.
illmitch 04.05.13	hey hillary i'm listening to BDP and you still suck
WashboardSuds 04.05.13	unfinished swan is so cool
cagedescending 04.05.13	hil is here thread's legit now guise
wabbit 04.05.13	I never said journey was art I just said it doesn't have the competitive nature of most video games That doesn't mean it's art
cagedescending 04.05.13	did u completely miss my post about MGS2 or what
wabbit 04.05.13	obviously I'm not going to read what you say
wabbit 04.05.13	I have Robert Ebert and Adam Sessler on my side you guys should have to prove they are art.
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	How does one prove anything is art. Its a subjective thing. What makes Corky Romano more art than Journey?
cagedescending 04.05.13	"obviously I'm not going to read what you say" "you guys should have to prove they are art." hm
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	yea wabbit you are being a little diltch right now
foxblood 04.05.13	arguing about subjective opinions is always productive
Cygnatti 04.05.13	"And pvp is absolutely not art so all the best video games aren't art" But not all of the best albums, or even the best movies are artistic either.
wabbit 04.05.13	that's a completely subjective qualifier though. My points ( Ebert's and Sessler's) are based in objective criteria.
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	ha ok now you're just barfing out your bunghole what are these objective criteria? and how does something being competitive negate it as art? Ken Griffey Jr's swing was a work of art. ribbon dancing is art. and riding into mexico while the sun sets in red dead redemption with jose gonzalez playing is, most definitely, art.
WeepingBanana 04.05.13	miles are you saying vidya isn't art because the participant directly interacts with the narrative? if so, how many paint chips do you eat daily?
klap 04.05.13	even if i agree with miles he is always the worst debater
cagedescending 04.05.13	Sessler is biased towards mainstream and current-gen gaming, and Ebert was completely out of touch with gaming as a whole. and you just said before that pvp games are the 'best'... a completely subjective (not to mention arbitrary and vague) qualifier. what makes them the 'best' games? how does that disprove the existence of artful games?
Trebor. 04.05.13	Bioshock Infinite basically proves video games are art, shame he didn't get to play it But yeah Ebert is one of the most important figures in film history and a swell writer and lover of the black woman and just a cool dude
toxin. 04.05.13	imo most video games aren't art. someone mentioned spec ops: the line and i agree that's probably art (haven't played it but have heard much about it). it takes the essence of sth (i.e. the reality of war or w/e) and expands on it, so it's a didactic experience for the player. not that art has to be didactic but there has to be some core essence it's conveying and most video games fail to that standards. ebert's opinions on video games just aren't nuanced, probably because to him video games were synonymous with cod, halo, angry birds, and tetris. hardly anything artistic about those
WeepingBanana 04.05.13	if you don't think tetris is an art then you obviously haven't played enough tetris
Trebor. 04.05.13	A video game is art when it's a story that couldn't be told through another medium Hell books and movies don't even need to be that and they're considered art cuz fuckin Harry Potter is both and no one says shit about that not being art
StallionMang 04.05.13	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PXZCiesNek
Trebor. 04.05.13	Dude Tetris is artsy as fuck, it's an allegory for Stalin style communism. You just keep building and building and building but you never win If that's not art then I don't know what is
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	i already said tetris was art too. tetris has inspired so many works of art just google it. so i dont see what makes that art but the actual game not art. art doesnt have to have a profound purpose. this is such a dumb discussion.
toxin. 04.05.13	dude weeping i've played too much tetris tbh @treb idk hp isn't literature and i've always defined literautre as "writing as art" but maybe that's just my own opinion. or maybe i'm thinking high art idk
toxin. 04.05.13	"tetris has inspired so many works of art just google it" how does that make that art? george washington has inspired art (i.e., crossing the delaware or w/e that painting was) but you wouldn't call him art. just because something has inspired art doesn't make it art?
AmericnZero02 04.05.13	Pretty sad news. I was pretty against him on the whole Ryan Dunn incident but otherwise Ebert came off as a good guy and was definitely my favorite movie critic. A great writer, no doubt. RIP.
WeepingBanana 04.05.13	harry potter is literature. it's pop literature, but still literature
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	and i followed that statement asking how the actual game wasnt art too toxin. tetris is art. i dont see any way its not.
Trebor. 04.05.13	Tetris is art because it's human expression designed to elicit human emotions And also it has no practical purpose
toxin. 04.05.13	ehhhh i remember writing an essay on literature for my 12th grade ap lit class (What is literature) and my thesis was pretty much contrasting harry potter and catcher i think like art it's a pretty arbitrary term, but i think i defined literature as a novel that isn't simply intended to entertain. but i guess at this point it'd be splitting hairs over what's really just opinion
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	Ok so if you draw tetris. Its art. If you start the game and dont interact (movie). Its art. But the minute you interact and start playing. Not art. Am I getting this correct? So what do you call this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0LtUX_6IXY And other interactive art?
toxin. 04.05.13	@yankee, my bad. actually i think you and trebor are both correct, tetris is art because the creator intended for it to be indicative of the soviet plight. i'm not really sure that's true but iirc the creator was born in the ussr so it makes sense.
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	but even if it wasnt intended for the soviet plight, its still art. shit doesnt have to have some social commentary to be art.
Trebor. 04.05.13	Art can be unintentional too you know People get on their high horse about art, like it has to be fucking Dickens and a canvas with fuck all colors spewed randomly on it All art is is a recording of human expression basically
toxin. 04.05.13	imo not every movie is art, either. i don't think transformers (sorry to beat a dead horse but it's an easy example) is designed to affect you in any way, just entertain you enough so that you'll waste more money on their next sequel. in my definition it's not art. as for whether w/o the social commentary it'd be art, it's a pointless discussion because we're all arguing with different ideas of art in mind. without a concrete definition that we agree on we're just splitting hairs over nothing
YankeeDudel 04.05.13	art doesnt have to be only human expression. theres amazing paintings from elephants lol. also why cant a tree be art in itself? the earth is a living organism so who are we to say only we can create art? this is why discussions like this are dumb. anything can be art. it... is..... subjective.
Trebor. 04.05.13	But the definition of entertainment is electing certain emotions, whether it be happy, sad, angry, whatever Just because the purpose of Transformers was to make money doesn't mean everyone in the audience knows that and a lot of people seem to like these movies a lot and they probably think it's art cuz they're dumb as fuck or whatever but hey different strokes
CaptainHadouken 04.05.13	sometimes i wanna see a very smart/artsy film, other times i just wanna see some kick-ass action and stuff blowing up. There are even day of wanting to watch cheesy horror flicks a lot of times. Cinema is Cinema, Just because a movie isnt made for the already biased oscars anyways, doesn't mean it is not enjoyable. It is all personal preference. RIP Rog.
Yotimi 04.05.13	People like to make up qualifications for things being art.