Album Rating: 5.0

Well, pagan/viking metal emerged from BM (Bathory is the prime example here), while folk metal is basically traditional heavy/thrash metal, infused with folk melodies.

In a way, the one thing could've existed without the other, so I think it's fair to separate. The lyrical content can be very similiar, but music-wise there is a huge difference between the two.

@FrozenVain:

"I always thought that pagan metal was played by bands that sound like Moonsorrow (or just heavy folk inspired) but didn't sing about vikings such as Nokturnal Mortum or Forefather. A lot of people have objected when someone calls Forefather viking metal and they think it should be called anglo-saxon metal instead and there is where pagan comes in. A compromise of sorts. But I dunno."

You're right. Viking-Metal was a term used to describe the sound of Hammerheart-era Bathory (and early Manowar btw).

But as other bands, which didn't use viking imagery or lyrics (Forefather e.g.), started to play music in the vein of those bands, the term pagan metal seemed more appropriate. Anglo-Saxon metal could be a subgenre of pagan metal, but as there is only one band who plays that style, it seems pretty dumb to invent that label.



"EDIT: On RYM, Moonsorrow is described as viking metal while Nokturnal Mortum are tagged as Pagan Black Metal. For me they are quite similar but NM does not sing about vikings and they do not want to be tagged as such. "



Haha, what nonsense. Both bands are pagan metal (pagan "black" metal is kind of redundant). Moonsorrow aren't viking metal, for they are Finns and don't sing about vikings.

honestly most of this nomenclature is pedantic and pointless

like no one else makes a subgenre based on lyrical content, you don't see people calling pop music where they sing exclusively about lamps "lamp pop", it's just nitpicking tomfoolery

folk/black serve just fine as labels

bm is finicky for that it seems
NSBM
Unblack Metal
Viking/Pagan
are three examples that immediately come to mind.

Album Rating: 5.0

"like no one else makes a subgenre based on lyrical content, you don't see people calling pop music where they sing exclusively about lamps "lamp pop", it's just nitpicking tomfoolery"



Pagan Metal isn't exclusively based on lyrical content though.

Death Metal with viking lyrics is still Death Metal (->see Unleashed e.g.).

Even Black Metal with viking lyrics is still Black Metal, if it fails to translate the concept into the actual music.

Yeah but Viking metal is just folk/black metal is what Essence was getting at. Viking metal, pagan metal, etc is essentially just breaking down folk/black based on lyrical content which is a little silly

And then leads to people assuming all metal with Viking lyrics is Viking metal and we end up with forums of people claiming Amon Amarth is the best Viking metal band

yeah like, imagine someone who was interested in metal, looking in on our little world of naming things

they'd ask 'okay, so what's viking metal?' and you'd say it's black/heavy metal that sings about vikings

and they'd say 'all right, but does it sound any different from black/heavy metal?' and you'd have to say no

like how can something 'sound' viking if it's not just a term used to admit they sing about vikings?

Album Rating: 5.0

"and they'd say 'all right, but does it sound any different from black/heavy metal?' and you'd have to say no"



I'd have to say yes : )



Viking Metal, a.k.a Pagan Metal uses folk melodies and themes, embodied in an overall BM-sound (guitar sound, vocal style, etc). Instead of being dark and depressive like most BM, Viking Metal focuses on a rather "glorious" and "epic" atmosphere, often resulting in rather long songs. Prominent elements are: choir singing, folk instruments (most prominently: the mouthharp), acoustic guitars, samples of battles (50% of which were seemingly taken out of Braveheart) and of course pagan/viking-themed lyrics, which often deal with the conquest of Christianity, folk tales and mythology.



You won't find the combination of all these elements listed above in any other subgenre of metal.

i'd argue that those subtle differences do not an entire subgenre make

it also suggests that all bands considered to be viking metal need all of those elements to be viking metal. it's, as i said , pointless nitpicking. you just described a folk metal band that sings about vikings, you can absolutely find a band with all of those things that isn't viking metal

i mean, a band like eluvietie fits like 80% of the criteria there, are they 80% viking metal? if anything, defining a genre by extremely small elements that you listed, that can be found in a lot of other genres, doesn't satisfactorily distinguish the sound described in a manner that necessitates a new label

better example: Arafel, who satisfy pretty much all of your criteria, but are not viking metal. but the only thing really separating them from your description of one is the lyrical nature

Album Rating: 5.0

Eluveitie:

1. uses folk melodies -> approved

2. embodied in an overall BM-sound -> disqualified.

They might have some of the prominent elements I listed, but they are in no way rooted in BM and therefore miss the axiom completely.

I think pagan-metal has its own cosmos and shouldn't be lumped together with bands which have a completely different approach and history.

"you just described a folk metal band that sings about vikings, you can absolutely find a band with all of those things that isn't viking metal"

No, I described a folk metal band that is rooted in BM and has pagan lyrics. A band with all musical elements of pagan metal but WITHOUT the lyrical themes would be something else, but that would make as much sense as christian black metal.

yet Christian bm exists though haha

so wait you described a folk metal band with pagan lyrics in your description of viking metal? but viking metal and pagan metal are different?

come on you have to see how this is just nonsense

also nothing about subgenre classification is remotely axiomatic. though that's just a tiny word choice nitpick :]

Album Rating: 5.0

"but viking metal and pagan metal are different?"

No. As I said a hundred times before, pagan metal is a broader term for viking metal WITHOUT the necissity of scandinavian lore. Vikings = Scandinavian pagans.

"better example: Arafel, who satisfy pretty much all of your criteria, but are not viking metal. but the only thing really separating them from your description of one is the lyrical nature"

Eh, how are their lyrics not pagan?

->"The strike of the sword is like the hammer of Thor

Dissecting helmets of horned strangers

As Odin's lightning pierces, sharp spears

Kill souls of knights one by one"

Don't know about you, but that sounds pretty pagan to me.

then we're back to square one, where i was saying that viking metal is just folk/black metal with viking lyrics

aka it's folk/black metal and the genre doesn't provide an at a glance differentiation that would necessitate a new label

as a side nitpick, arafel is not labeled as viking/pagan/antijesus/whatever metal on either rym or metal archives

it's the mouth harps and braveheart samples I think

ah forgot the mouth harps

Album Rating: 5.0

"then we're back to square one, where i was saying that viking metal is just folk/black metal with viking lyrics. aka it's folk/black metal and the genre doesn't provide an at a glance differentiation that would necessitate a new label"



Yeah, but isn't that a new label? As opposed to simply saying "Folk Metal" to everything that has a flute in it? Pagan Metal is just a shortening of "folk/black metal with pagan lyrics", referencing the old term "Viking Metal" for historic reasons.



"as a side nitpick, arafel is not labeled as viking/pagan/antijesus/whatever metal on either rym or metal archives"



on german Wikipedia they are labeled pagan metal ; )

They sound pretty melodeath though, so I wouldn't even say they are.



Hail mouth harps.

yea thats kinda what i was saying, genre is 'what does it sound like', not 'what are they jabbin' out?'

all hail mouth harps indeed

Album Rating: 5.0

From the official announcement of the new Moonsorrow album:



"[...] there is an inevitable sense of classic black metal connecting the five new songs. Be it Norwegian bands like early Ulver or Enslaved as well as Sweden's Bathory, who are the first to blame for an unholy union between extreme metal and Nordic folklore, “Jumalten Aika” equally melts aural darkness with a strong fascination for ancient times, successfully avoiding the stereotypical “It's party time!” kind of folk/metal. This is pagan metal. A maelstrom of gloomy grandeur drenched in myths."





Sounds great!

Nice! Can't wait.