I think individuality ruins your argument tbh. I was bullied most of my life, had my parents and grandmother die in brutal ways all a month apart, and I'm no closer to killing myself, nor breaking down in front of a friend. Crying can of course be therapeutic, but it isn't essential to recovery to break down in front of a friend. Some people are predisposed to emotional outbursts, and many aren't.

Also being told to "man up" can be cold, but context is important. In many ways, a lot of us do need to "man up", by which I mean summon the strength to get over things. Unless you guys want to foster a generation of total pussies who retreat to the fetal position every time someone hurts their feelings

Album Rating: 4.0

if you've ever opened up/cried in front of a friend and felt like an idiot afterward instead of better, you'd know how much of a negative soul-sucking thing it can be

Album Rating: 4.5

Of course each individual is different, but what I'm saying is that for those who are going through some intense shit and are bottling up really toxic emotions, talking with someone can stop them from doing something daft.

I guess we'll disagree on the "man up" thing because whichever way you spin it to me it's just a bullshit term to suppress emotions. There are other ways to promote strength and telling men to stay silent isn't one of them.

it's getting clearer with every comment that Idles wrote the song "Samaritans" about guys like gyro. don't refer to men as "total pussies" if they don't exhibit the strength to get over things

Album Rating: 4.0

also this shit rules does anyone else get msp holy bible vibes from this or am i nuts

You see it as a bs term used to bottle up emotions because of how it's mainly used, but I'd argue there's a value to it that teaches us to come to grips with our despair and learn to move past it, lest we become consumed by grief.

Stallion gets it. I've cried in front of friends and felt like a total idiot later on. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not.

Moreover, the term "toxic masculinity" is in itself inherently toxic. It's saying masculinity can be toxic
.. Can females not also be toxic? Is there such a thing as feminine toxicity? Should we further divide and alienate males?

Album Rating: 4.5

I don't see the term 'toxic femininity' used and don't believe it exists, but regardless we're talking about masculinity and men suppressing their emotions. I agree there's value in teaching people to grieve and if that's helped you then that's wonderful, but for other people it can be incredibly toxic.

Again, it's not saying all masculinity is toxic, just elements of it- especially the notion that being silent and stoic is a 'manly' thing to do and that not being that and instead reaching out makes you somehow less of a man.

I'm sick of apologizing to the left for being a male. Toxicity isn't inherent to gender, it's a quality of humankind - plenty of females can be toxic as hell too. This obsession to divide everything based on race and gender is sickening

Album Rating: 4.5

No one's saying you have to apologise for being a male, fucking hell. It's just the case that now people are challenging ideas of what it means to be masculine. And of course everyone can be toxic, but 'toxic masculinity' has its own definition and is a phenomenon that has been heavily documented.

Album Rating: 4.5

And the effect of it, as DirEnRefused astutely put it, is in the astoundingly high male suicide rate.

Yeah and elsewhere in the world there are documented cases of ghost sightings. What's your point? We live in a world full of idiots.

Album Rating: 4.5

Ghost sightings can't be proven, male suicides can. Calling them 'idiots' just makes you look like a bit of a twat.

So there's apparently a huge correlation between suicide and "masculine toxicity" eh? What does that entail exactly? Bullying? Repressed emotions which lead to suicide? How does one even get statistical data on something like this?

"He killed himself because he was too masculine and couldn't emote to his friends"

Album Rating: 4.5

What about if someone is struggling with suicidal thoughts or depression? And instead of talking to someone else about it, whether that's a friend, family member, counsellor, Samaritans, they decide to bottle it up. Eventually that will come to a head and could potentially lead to that man killing himself. It happens.

So, your evidence is purely anecdotal. I'm not denying that shit happens, but that isn't exactly concrete data. And oftentimes when someone commits suicide it's due to a major chemical imbalance in the brain. Talking doesn't always help.

My main point in this whole thread is I don't think toxic masculinity is a thing. I think further segregation based on gender (also applicable to race) is the real toxicity here. There are far too many variables to consider when discussing suicide

"Moreover, the term "toxic masculinity" is in itself inherently toxic. It's saying masculinity can be toxic"

Yeah, 'cause it sometimes can. The term refers to negative, damaging behaviors that society codes as masculine and lionizes through media, peer pressure, etc., stuff like repressing emotion, not wanting to show weakness, being physically or sexually aggressive, etc. The whole reason people condemn "toxic masculinity" and not just "masculinity" is to set apart the negative stuff from the rest of it.

Also this album is really good, feeling somewhere between a 3.5 and a 4 atm but definitely has potential to grow to a 4.5 on repeat listens.