yeah capitalism sucks

jesus, calm down klap.

just because "selling fake bulls of goods" is common doesn't make it necessarily desirable? how can the concept of diluting art with consumerist practices being not totally ideal be so triggering? it might not warrant complete disassociation, but obviously as someone who likes some pop music i'm not suggesting that. of course marketing and a&r exist, thats not even relevant to my point.

prettymuch every artist to ever make it big can then be described as an industry plant

Album Rating: 2.5

"no, industry plant is referring to artists who make it big with low-key big record label assistance where part of their marketing is portraying the artist as home-grown by utilizing their own social media and tactics like that as opposed to branded marketing "



i just don't see how this makes someone more or less worthwhile on an artistic level

again, the notion that even mentioning that there is a certain level of respect to be gained from DIY artists, under-dogs, true entrepreneurs etc in the artists is "galaxy brain level retarded" or "an invalid criticism" is... cosmically retarded and an invalid criticism

"i just don't see how this makes someone more or less worthwhile on an artistic level"

you don't see how someone who creates and sells their own vision is more worthwhile on an artistic level than someone who has their vision created and sold for them?

in those instances you don't even know how much say these people even have, its an industry where the vast majority already don't even write or produce their own music, a lot don't even write their own lyrics, they might not even be deciding their own direction or manufacturing their own image or aesthetic....

sure that doesn't necessarily warrant "fuck all pop music, its all worthless garbage" because pop music can still be good, fun, catchy, whatever you want it to be, but to say thats a stupid, invalid criticism of the state of certain forms of art?

LOL fucks sakes.

Album Rating: 3.5

It would be a valid criticism if said artist was playing up the small town, aww-shucks shtick to promote herself. I could be totally wrong about this, but I haven't seen anyone claiming Eilish to be some accidental find.



And even if I'm wrong and she's doing the whole "I grew up on a Christmas tree farm" that Swift does, it doesn't alter the quality of the product, only the sense of enjoyment by listeners who value the integrity of an artist's roots over her actual art.



Just my two cents.

Album Rating: 2.5

potsy, were not talking about who’s creating the music - I was referring to the marketing aspect of it. Whether someone comes out of their bedroom on the strength of their own social media game or whether some A&R dept assists makes no difference imo

Album Rating: 2.5

And honestly I don’t really care about where the music is coming from at this point. I generally think it’s a criticism that makes the critic feel better about themselves

Album Rating: 3.5

^different paths to the same endgame, which is why I don't care either

like i said much earlier i have no idea if "industry plant" is even relevant to eilish at all, im just saying that its not an inherently unjust criticism as there are instances where its true.

"it doesn't alter the quality of the product, only the sense of enjoyment by listeners who value the integrity of an artist's roots over her actual art."

well, for arguments sake lets pretend that in this instance there is some weight behind the sentiment. in which case the contrasting directions and lack of focus here could be contributed to industry influences sussing out the right style to direct her in in the future. in which case the entire album suffered as a cohesive unit and didn't live up to the expectations set by her own marketing as this dark broody trap pop record. thats would be an instance in which it could be argued that it would altar the quality of the product.

and furthermore, enjoyment of an artist is rarely just face-value, celebrities are icons and they are under a magnifying glass all the time. debates about "separating the artist from the art" and stuff like that wouldn't even exist if art existed in a vacuum.

Album Rating: 2.5

I agree w that, I’m just saying dismissing an artist out of hand on some bogus idea of their intrinsic worth vis a vis how “compromised” by the Man they might be is dumb

"potsy, were not talking about who’s creating the music - I was referring to the marketing aspect of it. Whether someone comes out of their bedroom on the strength of their own social media game or whether some A&R dept assists makes no difference imo"

yes we are. marketing is only one aspect of it. so you are just ignoring what i'm saying.

"I generally think it’s a criticism that makes the critic feel better about themselves"

galaxy-brain level retarded.

Album Rating: 2.5

“i dont think the "industry plant" criticism is that invalid in instances where there is truth to it, the idea of being mislead to believe an artist is self-manufactured and that the process of their ascension to fame is organic is definitely a bit troubling. there is a certain level of respect to be gained from true autonomy, and being essentially 'groomed' and processed into fame is kind of a superficial, money-grubbing polarity to that“



This is coming from a person who 5’d Ariana grande just wanted to point that out ok see ya later

Album Rating: 3.5

This argument seems to be getting cyclical but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that:

1) no one likes a phony

2) someone's product shouldn't be outright dismissed just because they had help (like klap said)

potsy gets it. dismissing critiques of industry machinations is just another variation of that one-dimensional remark: "I separate the art from the artist." those concepts will always be connected, and that's especially clear in this case where the product has been focus grouped to banality.

^yup pots likes the Disney star arianna grande.

Yeah same argument as

1) no one likes a nazi

2) You shouldn't lower your rating of Burzum albums just because he said the Jews created the black death

i really dont think authenticity is a "bogus" idea. look, i think people that go around trying to explain that all pop music is inherently worthless are just as stupid as the next guy, but the polarity to that, complete dismissiveness to any sort of criticism bent around the ramifications of industry interference on the arts is equally stupid. you cant just ignore the worth of all pop music based off the common knowledge of industry practice, but you can't just ignore all criticisms geared towards it either. there is very obviously a level of discernment necessary to not just be completely biased in one direction or the other.

Im gonna jam Fake Smile all day and enjoy the fuck out of it but I'm not going to ignore obvious criticisms about ariana grande