Album Rating: 3.0

Row it's not really an interpretation of those lyrics in terms of theme or how they read on the page it's more how much they stand out, how incongruous they feel (in a bad way) against the music and next to the rest of the words



It's a great album but patchy as hell, and it's no classic for me

Album Rating: 3.0

ALA you are allowed to prefer the Pixies, I thought I'd read you disliked Nevermind

Album Rating: 3.0

Pixies are obviously better than Nirvana but that's another argument



I don't even know which lyrics you're talking about yet - can you give some examples? because Alligator is Berninger's funniest, cleverest most self-aware album by a mile

Album Rating: 3.0

Row Trouble is no step down, it's the fans who have stepped down lol - they probably all want another Abel ;]



Trouble is their best album, you could maybe snip two songs off it though. Still it has 7 or 8 songs I rate higher than Geese and Matt doesn't scream once, it's beautiful

Album Rating: 3.0

"their best album" and "you could maybe snip two songs off it" don't add up. There isn't a weak song on the three records preceding it and suddenly three stinkers popped up on Trouble, no way it's their best or even close

Album Rating: 3.0

Row I gave loads of examples already, any lyric like 'pissing in a sink' that dominated the entire song.

Album Rating: 3.0

I can see two vague examples on the previous page which gives me the impression you don't have any specific ones to back up your point mmk

Album Rating: 3.0

Astronauts, Abel, Friend of Mine are all pretty meh for me for a start



Trouble does have the most songs is the problem. Demons, Last Time, Slipped, Pink Rabbits, Humiliation are all untouchable, with another 3 right behind that (Graceless, Swallow Cap, Sea of Love) plus the opener and closer do their jobs well even if they're not amazing songs out of context. Incredible album



Need My Girl is the weakest song but it's no worse than the weaker songs on Alligator

Album Rating: 3.0

All the Wine 'I won't let the psychos around' ...clunk

City Middle 'I think I'm like Tennessee Williams' repeated plus the pissing line ...clunk

We're out looking for astronauts repeated...clunk



I don't have the whole album on me but there are others on the other songs too

Album Rating: 3.0

In summary Berninger has got to the stage that on songs like Slipped or Lemonworld he inhabits every word to an indie Sanatra degree and for me he's getting more and more masterful at it, the wordless singing is legendary on those tracks too- there's hardly any of that on Alligator to my ears.

Album Rating: 3.0

Recently I've come to think Trouble has the best lyrics, with Alligator as a close follow-up, but I actually prefer Boxer and HV to both of those albums (not to say those albums have bad lyrics at all; just a slightly lower level of amazingness). Again I love Alligator almost as much as the next guy but for me it's held back from being a classic by its scrappiness. It works better on some songs than others.

Nowadays I don't even really think of Alligator as a National album, by which I mean that when I think of the National, I think of the more refined sound of Boxer, HV, and TWFM, which of course existed in a prototype form in a few songs on Alligator but didn't dominate that album.

While Doof's "go to the bar songs" characterization is maybe a bit unfair, especially considering that at this point Boxer and HV are their best-known works and TWFM still their most recent thus they're more likely to play a lot fewer songs from Alligator, I agree that if I were at a National concert I wouldn't really be itching to hear any of those except Mr. November as they just don't vibe with what they've done since.

Album Rating: 3.0

Mr November is still good live, All the Wine is overrated imo and stuck out as pretty weak in the live format

Album Rating: 2.5

"[...] Abel [...] are all pretty meh for me for a start"



"[...] All the Wine is overrated imo [...]"



Complete Madness. Probably two best songs on the Album. (Aside from Maybe Daughters of the Soho Riots)

Album Rating: 3.5

All the wine is up there with Geese yeah

Album Rating: 3.0

Never understood the love affair for All the Wine, the lyrics are fun but it's pretty dull other than that. The trailing 'All foo-oooooor me' not an appealing melody really. 'I won't let the psychos around' possibly his worst line of lyrics and it crops up during a clunky part of the arrangement and...ah, the song is a kinda drinking song for the fans now I guess, but honestly it was the worst song in their set when I saw them a couple of years ago. It's a plodder, you really get that in the live context, the drums came alive on Boxer, any dullness/muddiness that was present on Alligator was wiped away on that album, huge step up.



Secret Meeting 4/5

Karen 4.5/5

Lit Up 3.5/5

Astronauts 3/5

Daughters 4.5/5

Baby 3/5

Friend of Mine 3/5

Val Jester 3.5/5

All the Wine 3.5/5

Abel 3/5

The Geese 5/5

City Middle 3.5/5

Mr November 4/5



Fake Empire 4.5/5

Mistaken 4.5/5

Brainy 5/5

Squalor 4/5

Green Gloves 5/5

Slow Show 5/5

Apartment 4/5

Start a War 4/5

Guest Room 3/5

Racing 3.5/5

Ada 5/5

Gospel 3.5/5



Blank Slate would have been the second strongest song on Alligator if it had featured on it

Album Rating: 3.0

Honestly Doof though I do kind of see where you're coming from you talk about Alligator like it's a 2.5 or something when iirc you have it at a 4. Like even based on those song ratings you think every song on it is at least "good".

Album Rating: 3.0

I don't mean to bad mouth it, but look how many 5's I've given out, 2% of all the albums I've rated here? The three National albums I have 5'd I don't just think are great, they are 3 of my top 15 albums out of 2200. They are truly special in my mind, Alligator on the other hand is just an excellent album by an indie band discovering their strengths (Berninger's persona, atmospherics and that incredible drumming on Boxer).

Album Rating: 3.0

I understand that, idk even knowing how you rate it seems a bit harsh but it could just be that you're focusing on the negative aspects in this particular conversation as a counter to what most other people believe about it.

Album Rating: 3.0

It's still The National and it's better than Sad Songs for sure. Did it rock my world back in 2005? No, it was promising though. Did Boxer give me my new musical heroes in 2007? Yes.



I've mainly focused on the negative in this discussion because that's the basis of my argument yeah. The album was an important transition from their country influence to more of an indie rock sound

Album Rating: 2.5

Alligator beats both "High Violet" and "Trouble will find me" in my opinion. As much as I really, really love every album since Alligator, I think they are on a slightly worrying trajectory since "Boxer".

Alligator is (by far) not as refined as everything that comes after that album. Boxer is Alligator but slightly subdued and also refined. High Violet is even more subdued and there are moments where it's becoming hard to connect on emotional level because it sounds slightly apathetic, and on that trend intensifies on Trouble will find me, which is still amazing but has songs like Fireproof, Heavenfaced or I Need My Girl where I just feel nothing and I'm honestly kind of bored. If I compare a song like Fireproof to Daughters of the Soho Riots (both songs are very stripped down, quiet ballads) I do worry that they are becoming less and less relatable on an emotional level.



This sounds more negative than I actually feel about their recent material. But I'm happy that they already talked about going into kind of a new direction with their new material, because they've been brewing very samey (very tasty) stew for some time now.