Album Rating: 4.0

Small prob for Metallica was that they didn’t follow up that album for a long time whereas Nirvana kept releases coming out, ‘In Utero’ and ‘Unplugged’ were almost as huge, and ‘incenticide’ was quite well received. They had momentum, seemed in a hurry.



Metallica just became a touring machine like so many slow moving beasts before them and kept a loyal following. Totally different feel.

Album Rating: 5.0

You bring up some good points, Doofus

Album Rating: 5.0

But why do you only see the worst in people?

Album Rating: 4.0

What were the sales for the singles? And the figures for radio play and MTV rotation? Would imagine Nirvana might top those.



Even if they don’t...it was their year. To put it in today’s terms - eh, they started the ‘youth quake’ not the old dyed in black men of Metallica

Album Rating: 4.0

‘Only see the worst in people’?



You work with what you’re presented with ;)



Nah, I see the good my people, I just enjoy a debate

"Hans, that’s what I’m getting at - ‘Tallica were big but their success was a slow build and their fans were ‘Tallica fans, an established demographic, plus then you had your mainstream crossover."

Lol. So what your saying is, everyone who bought the Black album was a Metallica fan...or a non-Metallica fans. What does that even mean?

The only difference between Metallica and Nirvana was the fact that Metallica's demographic probably skewed a little bit older than Nirvana, which captured the zeitgeist of the under-20s. But to say in hindsight that Nevermind is a more important album than the Black Album means saying that the opinions of anyone over 25 doesn't matter in defining what's culturally important to music.

Album Rating: 5.0

I know sales don't mean anything but haven't PJ outsold Nirvana in the States? Although outside the US Nirvana are easily the bigger band.

Album Rating: 5.0

I was making a reference to There Will Be Blood, Doofus



Ya damn doof

Furthermore, considering how divisive Black album is among Metallica fans, you can't even really pin the record's astronomical sales on the legion of doddering "old dyed in black men of Metallica". The album may not have seemed as sexy to your 10 year old mind at the time, but Black album was every bit as important to rock music as Nevermind was, and going by pure record sales, a fair bit more important.

Album Rating: 4.0

Good reference DarkSide, straight over my head.



Sitar, it isn't too difficult a concept - I'm saying Metallica's existing fans were metal heads, then they broke across to a wider audience.



But they were still 'heavy metal' which is always a niche genre compared to 'rock' - it just is.



So Nirvana were always more likely to become a true populist thing than 'Tallica. Which they were.



Metallica didn't really change much, metal remained metal, despite this being its biggest moment in the sun. You could say they united hard rockers and metal heads and got heavy-ish stuff on the radio.



Nirvana changed music for about five years after they dropped 'Nevermind', they were the leaders of an entire musical shift/youth movement.

Album Rating: 5.0

Doof is absolutely bang on.



There is no comparison to what Nirvana ‘was.’



Instantaneous overnight cultural reformation brought about by the music. We haven’t seen anything like it.

The style of MTV, youth culture, fashion, attitude everything changed and it was as a result of Nevermind which was largely loved, praised and lauded by everyman and his dog.



Some pilled up raver to a ‘true’ goth had Nevermind and either loved it or appreciated it for what it was. A catalyst for the youth.

Album Rating: 4.0

The only releases I’d say were a phenomena of sorts I’ve lived through are:



Michael Jackson ‘Bad’

Guns n Roses ‘Appetite’

Nirvana ‘Nevermind’

Radiohead ‘Ok Computer’



That’s it, and Nirvana are the biggest of those easily with possible exception of MJ at his height of popularity.

Album Rating: 4.0

Closest of the rest were Oasis but that was spread over two albums.

"So Nirvana were always more likely to become a true populist thing than 'Tallica. Which they were."

See you keep saying that, and have no way to substantiate it except by saying "I was there, so I know." The Black Album massively outsold Nevermind. By that objective metric it's clearly a more "true populist things" than Nevermind.

And granted, Nirvana were the leaders of a new wave of youth culture. But there is/was a world outside your middle-school cultural bubble and what was important inside that bubble is not necessarily as important outside it. Nevermind was a good, nay, a great album. But it wasn't even the greatest rock/metal record of 1991. I'm not sure why that's difficult to grasp.

Album Rating: 5.0

While Nirvana are my favourite band, I'm always skeptical of how many people actually love them past Smells Like/Come as You are, the whole of MTV unplugged. I find it amazing that a band with songs like Negative Creep, Milk It and Scentless Apprentice managed to sell so many records and still commands massive respect to this day.

Album Rating: 5.0

Let me give you my own experience. I was 11 years old in 1991. I was raised on 80s pop, which totally delved into 1990. I first heard both the Black album and Nevermind at roughly the same time. I was 11 years old, and both of them made me literally explode in my pants (if I was able to yet at that point, I'm not sure). For both of them, I was like, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS. Both launched a massive, and I mean obsessive love for Metal, grunge, Hard Rock, etc. Without the black album, I may have never gotten into metal. It was the gateway drug. With Nevermind, you could just tell the shit had massive impact. Everyone was digging it. When he died, people were motherfucking crestfallen.



I guess, to quote Cobain, what the hell am I trying to say? Both of them were fucking juggernauts. Nevermind wasn't as massive of an album in terms of sales, but it absolutely ushered in a major change in the culture of radio, MTV, youth culture, etc. The funny thing is Cobain hated being famous, while Hetfield fucking LOVED it.

Album Rating: 5.0

Fashion changed, heroin ‘chic’ became a thing, ‘alternative’ became mainstream and the mainstream actually adapted as a result.

I’d say the only people to have a bigger impact was Oasis but that was more contained to the UK.

Album Rating: 4.0

People didn’t need to love Nirvana beyond a few songs for them to be the most famous band in the world though.



I think we’re nearly getting there now though, that a lot of classic measures don’t tell the whole story.



It’s interesting looking back because if something had the impact of say ‘Dookie’ now it’d be the biggest thing of the year. Back then it was big, but just another release really. Things have changed a lot.

Album Rating: 5.0

"Metallica didn't really change much, metal remained metal, despite this being its biggest moment in the sun. You could say they united hard rockers and metal heads and got heavy-ish stuff on the radio."



I disagree with this. Before the The Black Album, glam metal was the metal scene in the sun. When it dropped, it changed everything - thrash bands slowed down, heavier bands like Pantera were seen as more commercial viable, and glam metal went from carefree to very serious. Metal was a very different landscape after the Black Album. I would also like to think that their more serious and introspective tone, in some way, set the stage for what grunge's popularity really thrived on.

Album Rating: 5.0

Then again, Metallica were clearly grunge inspired (at least visually) later on, so what the fuck do I know