Yeah, progressive is appropriate for her later albums, Progressive Folk. She is a big fan of Gentle Giant and Roy Harper.

@ars
Definitely do that!

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But to get down the whole progressive argument, I'm a firm believer in the term 'progressive' to encompass all genres rather than focusing solely on rock, in which we'd have to go way back to determine how we got to Sgt Pepper/Days/Court. Now, on the subject of concept albums, if we were to count that as well, we'd have to go back to Guthrie's Dust Bowl Ballads as a legitimate first example of the concept album as we know it.

I'm a fan of 'progressive' as a descriptor too. For example: applied to 'The End' by The Doors.

It doesn't have any use to describe Jazz or Classical though. I don't see how it can encompass all genres.

"subject of concept albums..."
True, concept albums shouldn't be the defining characteristic of the descriptor "Progressive". It's kind of like how the use of a mellotron is not the defining feature of prog rock, but it is an instrument common within the genre.

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I'd argue in favor of it including jazz and classical, specifically Mingus and Schoenberg respectively.

Interesting. Why would you use the word to describe each of their music?

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In Mingus's case, you could point to where he was headed post-Sinner with increasingly elaborate and detailed compositions, almost overly dense and busy to a fault, but by the time he had reemerges with Let My Children Hear Music, I think he had ultimately shown himself to be the most forward thinking of his generation. Not necessarily surprising considering his own background and his own ambitions to be a composer when he was young, add that in with the fact he let his own sidemen take the front while he, erm, conducted them in the background.



As for Schoenberg, it's a bit more difficult, but he grew more and more experimental as he grew older and drifted further and further away from stuff like Verklarte Nacht, which for the time, was already a fairly radical piece. It's a shoddy example but it's the best I have, but he and Scott Walker have the same career trajectory in the sense they chased their muse off a cliff and took total disregard for what was 'in'. More of a trailblazer than progressive perhaps, but I could also apply this term to Stravinsky, who King Crimson owes an absurd amount of debt to, especially if you're keen on Le Sacre Printemps.

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I could probably go more into detail, but admittedly, it can wait another time when I actually have more proper examples on me to actually listen to instead of putting this together on the fly.

"I could probably go more into detail, but admittedly, it can wait another time when I actually have more proper examples.."
Of course, no problem.
"...where he was headed post-Sinner with increasingly elaborate and detailed compositions, almost overly dense and busy"
Would you say that progressive is a description assigned to a particular piece of music that differs to previous works? A literal progression in an artists output. A transition to a more 'sophisticated' form of music? That there are no progressive artists, only progressive albums/songs/pieces/recordings ?
You use the words forward thinking to describe Mingus. If exploring new ideas is a facet of what progressive is then most progressive rock can not be described as progressive.

"More of a trailblazer than progressive perhaps, BUT I could also apply this term to Stravinsky, who King Crimson owes an absurd amount of debt to"
I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

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Progressive can apply to both a specific work and to an artist in general. King Crimson is perhaps the best example I can use in this case, especially with this album, which arguably foresaw the next 30 years of rock music. It's hard to argue a great deal of bands owe a lot to this album (Nirvana, Tool, a shitheap of prog metal groups, etc. etc.) However, I'm going more into influence rather than progression, which is the question at hand. Progression can be applied to a singular work to designate it as wildly different or as a contrast to prior material (ex. Islands went in an increasingly chamber music inspired direction while taking more cues from soul jazz rather than purely Avant garde artists like on Lizard; Larks went in a improvisation direction influenced by Bartok and Stravinsky, and so on). There are certainly progressive artists both in the sense of where they're taking their music and as to what they're doing to challenge the norm which is constantly changing everyday. As for the "prog can't be described as progressive" bit, I honestly agree a great deal, as a lot of the artists involved were certainly talented rock musicians who just happen to be able to play more complicated and technical stuff - Keith Emerson is the defining example of this.

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As for the trailblazer bit, I was merely insinuating that even if some were to deny Schoenberg was progressive, he could be seen as a trailblazer who laid out the blueprint for more innovative composers. The Stravinsky bit is a bit irrelevant although like mentioned, he has his fingerprints all over the Larks material as Fripp was paying very close attention to his works - not of much relevance to this album but I guess I figured it mattered enough to mention.

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Although I could truly be lazy and say the term 'progressive' is a bit redundant for a lot of things as it's harder to really define what really is progressive and what is not.

Interesting. You know that your description of progressive isn't one that is widely accepted though right?

I think you are just using the word progressive instead of innovative. (Though I expect you would say it is specifically complexity + innovation)

I actually somewhat shared your description not long after I discovered progressive rock. I assumed it was the definition of progressive rock (it was easy assumption to have, given that all the classic bands have something unique about them).

Actually now I look back at what you just wrote, you never emphasised complexity.

What would you say about The Ramones? One of the most original rock bands ever.

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As someone who had practically lived and breathed the stuff at one point, you really get the sense that a lot of it truly is a bunch of posturing, but when it gets good, it really gets good. To me, a progressive piece of music doesn't necessarily need to be complex, which is what I think a lot of artists and fans truly miss the point of. Perhaps I am confusing innovation with progressiveness but I think they do go hand in hand with each other in a way.

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Ramones? I can't truly say what I think because admittedly I haven't heard a complete Ramones record outside of a handful of singles. That's the beauty of it - there's always so much to learn and to discover. That's what I love the most about listening to music and sharing that experience with others.

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Like to emphasize the complexity thing: Cromagnon put out an absolutely barebones lo fi record with very little actual rock instrumentation and a lot of improvisation and unusual bits and pieces, but is a lot more progressive than say, the entirety of the Emerson, Lake and Palmer catalogue.

You are right and wrong about Cromagnon because the accepted description of "progressive music" is not literal. : )

I liken the genre of progressive rock to alternative rock (though taken literally, this is even more confusing). It is a progression from the norms of its respective genre. That is why even though there is very little innovation in modern prog, it is still called progressive. (Because modern Dream Theater don't sound like the definitive rock band. I guess to most people this would be the Foo Fighters or something)

The reason why this definition was never applied to the likes of the Sex Pistols and Ramones? (the genre that began as a reaction against progressive rock )
The reason is the belief that popular music could only progress by becoming more "sophisticated" like Jazz or classical.

Originality is usually more incidental and is more about context than the actual music substance. Ramones are a very simple band who play rock tunes stripped down to the absolute bare bones, to the point that they proudly emphasized that simplicity, but that simplicity is precisely influential because of the cultural elements surrounding, as its heavy simplicity provided a counterpoint to the increasingly elaborate and lavish brands of rock that was dominating the airwaves at the time. At some point or another, either as an idea or by just sucking at playing, someone was going to make music like the Ramones purely off the fact that they simply took rock and kept it simple. This isn't to take away from their accomplishments or how influential they are but rather to demonstrate that innovation and progressive-ness are not usually correlated beyond maybe incidentals and in a lot of ways, they sometimes clash. I mean Ramones was considered a response and attack to prog rock (To an extent, although the Sex Pistols took that aggressve train of thought much further). Of course, it sorta depends on what you think progressive means since it's a fairly nebulous term, but generally progressive as most people seem to think it's music which emphasizes elaborate and lavish arrangements and playing usually influenced by classical music or jazz. The term "progressive" is anachronistic because it was supposed to talk about a specfic brand of rock of the time but now it just sorta stuck as a term to refer to all music that sounds like it was inspired by King Crimson or Yes or Gentle Giant or whatever. Now, a lot of the things that these acts "progressed" from are kind of the norm.

Edit: Hah, you ended up saying a lot of the same things I wrote down before I had the time to send my comment.

"Now, a lot of the things that these acts "progressed" from are kind of the norm."
I think some aspects of progressive music from the 70's have seeped into other rock sub-genres today. But being Progressive (long songs, "complexity", jazz, classical, Past life regression lyrics, instrument wanking) is still not the norm for Rock music.

edit: lol

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the guitar on Fallen Angel is wrecking me up....