“I can only directly identify with white people, so I feel more uncomfortable about someone getting dicked over than virulent racism”

Edit: Whatta page brake

If you're suggesting I don't have a strong opinion on racism, I'd gladly discuss that. Fuck Nazis and racists too. That's a crime against all humanity, not just against art. I mention Varg not because it's a parallel, but because somebody is bound to post my 5's and I don't have all saints in there.

I should probably vet those too, really. There are so many good people making great music that it's worth revisiting my musical journey with the benefit of hindsight.

Musicians are oblivious channels for divine creativity: Meta-instruments of the gods. Mortals cannot fathom their true purpose.

Yeah maybe introspect before you get on a confrontational pedestal about this while still being on board with a bunch of white supremacists. I got Drudkh in my 5’s too, but like, long as you’re not supporting them financially, what benefit is there to get all hot and bothered here, of all relative places?

At least Drudkh has since disavowed extreme politics, but that's still one of those uncomfortable listens even though the music creates an awesome atmosphere. I plan on talking to some people with better insight on Ukraine and its history.

I'm a "what is this about?" kind of musician -- I love program music and wrote my senior thesis on its evolution during the Romantic era via Berlioz, Wagner, and Liszt -- so it's complicated issue but I should stand firm on all fronts. I can barely even listen to Intronaut anymore since Danny Walker was kicked for his consistently poor treatment of women, and he didn't even write the music. So if the dude in Forest is an actual neonazi, what the fuck am I doing listening to that when Kalmankantaja exists, right? You're right, it's time to stand up. Let's do it.

Yeah Mate, it’s a tough line to walk and being a black metal fan for the most part comes with a heaping helping of cognitive dissonance. I’ve kind of settled into prior research to check into the people I’m listening to and making sure to exclusively torrent shit and not put a cent into the heinous artists, as much as I still enjoy the music of Burzum, Drudkh, Deathspell, et al (and really putting the all in et al there, to boot).

And I support not listening to whatever feels like you can’t stomach it, just felt like a strange note to strike actively criticizing this for ideological reasons instead of myriad other examples, given the tenor of the scene.

It is a strange note, but is it wrong to lobby against one evil at a time? No real good answer to that. Everyone has a comfort level, but perhaps I've become too comfortable in some places.

Metal and the music industry in general will always have their share of problems. I know my whole worldview was upended for that second, years ago, when it came out that Micheal Gira of Swans might've raped someone but ultimately he didn't.

I agree that listening to the art without supporting the artist is possible and if the shit is good/makes you feel good, I'd almost encourage it. But instead of virtue signaling about it to people one way or the other, I think it should be a personal thing. Like I can't watch The Cosby Show anymore cause that shit was built on a lie to me. He painted this picture of being this wholesome, clean character while being a real life monster at the same time, even on set. So the illusion and the promise are wholly ruined for me. But I'm not going knock someone else's nostalgic time with reruns if they still get that from it.

As a black black metal fan, I find myself in the position of ignoring the artists' views semi-regularly, leftist and RA black metal not withstanding. I really can't get behind shit with blatantly hateful sentiments or lyrics in it, but if a racist makes art that has nothing to do with their racism or is apolitical, then I don't see a problem with enjoying the material, provided you don't pay them. I say that too, but if DsO ever toured I go there in a heartbeat. Fuck Mikko, too, but I think the creative core of the band has its head on straight.

DsO is another one I can't listen to anymore :/

Just can't? Cause of one of the session vocalists that doesn't even write his own lyrics? I mean, Furnaces was flat out antifacist.

“I think the creative core of the band has it’s head on straight”

If they’re totally on board to keep working with Mikko, that’s clearly not the case. If you’re just straight up down continuing to associate with active Nazis, I got some fucking news for you...

But that's standard bm for you, also. Nearly every other band either has active ties to extreme/hateful politics or has had ties they they've since denounced, again not including newer leftist groups. Faust killed a motherfucker for being gay and went on to play music with greats like Emperor and Ulver. Even Nergal from Behemoth won't say something as simple as "what my friend said was fucked up" and would rather deflect.

Also, if you read the DsO's Bardo Mythology interview it's pretty clearly implied that their relationship is strictly professional and that they don't even like one another.

Edit: My prevailing sentiment is generally fuck black metal culture/politics, but the art and aesthetics are cool.

Yeah, says a lot about the scene, don’t it? “My employee is doing their level best to endorse a genocide, but the work they put in is good enough for us.” Willing association isn’t innocent, Bro, even if they get into little tiffs sometimes about people’s right to exist

They probably literally just like the way he sounds. Shit, I can't stand the dude as person and he seems like a fucking creep but I think he might be one of my favorite vocalists, too. I'm not saying that the rest of the band's hands are just clean either, man. I'm just saying that ultimately the art is great, entirely unreflective of Mikko's own problematicness, and I'm not gonna deprive myself of it.

I love the sound of Bad Brains even though they were once anti-gay. I still think Kobe Bryant is factually one of the best basketball players of all time and enjoy his highlights from a content perspective even though he was probably a rapist asshole, in all likelihood.

I said I still listen to DSO, you’re the one dancing around trying to make excuses for the rest of the band claiming to maybe have some troubles with the whole Nazi thing but certainly not enough to stop a Nazi singing for them and expanding the shit out of his exposure and influence.

The choice as a listener to not financially support the band or contribute to streaming totals and visibility is one thing. The band exists for the exact opposite purpose. DsO are heinous people all around, end of. Listen to their music, whatever, but don’t make up excuses to feel better about it.

I'm only saying what the band themselves have said. If I listen to early Mayhem and Burzum and R. Kelly and Bobby Shmurda and Brainbombs, I don't really need excuses to feel better about listening to a thing. And I also hardly think DsO is some kind of great platform for any influence other than having a niche group of avant-garde bm fans like your shit. They're never gonna affect any elections meaningfully, I'm sure. Also, it seems like Mikko has literally only ever gotten negative attention from most people.

And by all means, explain it to me. Is there other problematic stuff that they've done outside of Mikko's own personal bullshit and some edgy and nonspecific early interviews?

They may not be a great platform for exposure to white supremacist ideas. They sure have a lot more reach than Mikko would’ve had stagnating in Clandestine Blaze, but sure. And maybe you don’t need excuses to listen to works by shitty predators, but you’re still trying to make excuses for DsO and said earlier you’d be more than happy to support them financially in the hypothetical that they ever came to town.

And is there any other problematic stuff? What do you want beyond an endorsement of actual white supremacy, whether direct or tacit depending on the member? You do know what the next step past expressing those beliefs is, right?

Are we not even gonna touch on Mikko's thing for child porn

Oh sweet Jesus fuck that’s in the mix too?

If I'm reading what the French core of the band have to express in their interviews and then taking in their artistic vision they don't seem like bad people. My bad for extending any semblance of a defense for them if it upsets you so. But also, nuances are important to me, even if just turns out to be varying degrees of bad. Guilt by association is for sure a factor, but also not the entire picture to me.

And if I could get into the show without paying I might even try. It's not about supporting them financially as much as it is about seeing one of the best bands ever in person. As an aside, I really only brought it up cause they almost toured when Furnaces dropped.

Obviously, the prevailing sentiment should be fuck nazis, fuck bigots, and fuck predators all day, every day.