ExcentrifugalForz: Gun Control

ExcentrifugalForz 01.24.13	Parents keeping their guns in a safe would have prevented about half the shootings you read about.
omnipanzer 01.24.13	Attention whore.
sixdegrees 01.24.13	free guns for every1
omnipanzer 01.24.13	This Town Needz Gunz
Trebor17 01.24.13	Just don't let the crazies have guns
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Just don't let the crazies have guns (2) Everyone else can have them. Guns don't choose to pull the trigger.
Calc 01.24.13	i hope no one here thinks they actually have an answer. unless its we should all go back to swords.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	That first comment is asinine.
Trebor17 01.24.13	"Guns don't choose to pull the trigger." What does this even mean, nukes aren't bad, they don't choose to annihilate people
Hyperion1001 01.24.13	i dont know where i stand on it really on one hand i support the idea behind the 2nd amendment that the people need to have the ability to form militias to fight tyranny if it should ever arise (it probably wont) but i also see no reason a civilian should ever have access to an assault weapon that was made for the expressed purpose of killing humans i havent really been able to rationalize it out to myself yet so i have no stance
KjSwantko 01.24.13	"Just don't let the crazies have guns" And how do you expect to do that? Have state-sponsored mandatory therapy sessions for 6 months before you can buy one? There's no way to know who is and isn't psychologically defective.
Trebor17 01.24.13	Well I mean you can start by not letting people with documented mental illness buy guns That whole rise against the government shit is bullshit, like a bunch of civilians with AR15s is going to have a chance against the American military OK
omnipanzer 01.24.13	"Guns don't choose to pull the trigger." The guns aren't what people fear.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Their is an answer. Teach society about peace properly stop all the hate and learn to identify or prevent the whackos from being in positions to hurt others. Give each school at least 2 armed cops. My intermediate high school and high school both had Tulsa Police Officers on rotating duty there all the time with at least 4-5 in the building at all times. Nothing bad ever happened in a school with 2,400 kids in each building and the cops were the ones who broke up all the fights and gang fights.
elephantREVOLUTION 01.24.13	"i support the idea behind the 2nd amendment that the people need to have the ability to form militias to fight tyranny if it should ever arise (it probably wont) " lol good luck fighting a drone army with a semi-auto
Hyperion1001 01.24.13	"Have state-sponsored mandatory therapy sessions for 6 months before you can buy one?" actually yes, this is the one thing i think definitively needs to happen. currently in my stand (the wonderful south carolina) i, at age 20, could walk into the palmetto state armory and walk out in 15 minutes with an AR-15 only having undergone a simple background check and thats complete 100% grade A bullshit everyone who wants to own a gun, ANY gun at all, should have to go through a mandatory instructional course, background check, and mental health check before they even have the chance to purchase the gun
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Yeah exactly omnipqnzer. Guns aren't what people should fear.
Hyperion1001 01.24.13	state***
Trebor17 01.24.13	I really need to get out of the states, I really can't relate to this gun worship bullshit
YankeeDudel 01.24.13	what exactly would the cutoff be for mental illness though. shit like 6/10 the country is on antidepressents and other pills now.
ILJ 01.24.13	in4 200 comments
wacknizzle 01.24.13	Gun nuts are stupid, their ridiculous paranoia is only making themselves look worse and making the government feel needed to disarm them. Oh well that's what they were hoping for anyway.
Killerhit 01.24.13	Poor guns, they're prejudiced against cause their black
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	It's not gun worship. We aren't Alex Jones here. You would want to keep your family's best defense wouldn't you?
KjSwantko 01.24.13	"like a bunch of civilians with AR15s is going to have a chance against the American military OK" not really dude... U.S. population not in military: 310 million people U.S. military and Coast guard: 2.8 million people Not to mention if technology was all that mattered, I think we would've faired a bit better in Vietnam and the middle East.
omnipanzer 01.24.13	"everyone who wants to own a gun, ANY gun at all, should have to go through a mandatory instructional course, background check, and mental health check before they even have the chance to purchase the gun" And the instructor should be a mandatory reporter.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Guns aren't just black. Smh terrible joke
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	U.S. population turned into V For Vendetta would work against the US army but you'll never unite us like that unless it got to the point that it did in the movie.
omnipanzer 01.24.13	"I really need to get out of the states, I really can't relate to this gun worship bullshit" How often are you subjected to it? You might just need to move locations. The "states" don't worship guns they worship freedom and fight loosing any of them tooth and nail unless frightened into giving them up. That doesn't make it right but believing this issue historically has anything to do with the guns themselves is false.
Trebor17 01.24.13	"Most of that tyrannical government stuff basically translates to "I'm afraid of the minorities that live across the street and the minority in the white house" None of these rednecks talked about this shit when Bush was in office
wabbit 01.24.13	not selling clips bigger than 10 seems to make sense cause who the fuck needs more than 11 shots at once unless you're trying to kill a bunch of people. I mean maybe for duck hunting but having used a semi automatic shotgun for doing it 5 is more than enough. On a rifle it's just pointless.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Trebor they were all out hunting with Cheney then they all come home turn their tv's on and bam BaBlack Obama in da heezy!!!
Hyperion1001 01.24.13	""Most of that tyrannical government stuff basically translates to "I'm afraid of the minorities that live across the street and the minority in the white house"" this is why i dont know where i stand, because i can see the logic of the 2nd amendment in 1776, but now i dont think there is any realistic thread of the rights given by the 2nd amendment to ever have to be exercised. i mean the military is made up of, guess what, civilians. and if barack heussain stalin hitler obama told them "its time to kill the whities" most of them would tell him to fuck off thats a little extreme but you get the point
Trebor17 01.24.13	Do we really want another civil war I mean come on
paxman 01.24.13	This shit pisses me off so much. I live in Texas (which means I'm surrounded by redneck fucking idiots). Anytime I try to make the case for gun control all these second amendment junkies pounce on me.
Trebor17 01.24.13	They love the second amendment but hate those pesky 1st 13th and 14th ones
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	That's way too extreme to make any valid point, hyp. -_-
Emim 01.24.13	Guns are cool and if you don't like them you are a pussy
paxman 01.24.13	I love you so much right now, Trebs
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Someone please make a valid point for gun control when people will not stop breaking in to houses, robbing stores, and killing people regardless.
Hyperion1001 01.24.13	but the point was the american military isnt some drone army programmed to listen to any single command the president gives. theyre a volunteer force, not to mention the myriad other checks that are in place to make sure this kind of thing wouldnt happen i mean yeah they have nukes and shit but nuking your own country isnt a very sound battle plan
Trebor17 01.24.13	I want to move to Japan where no one has guns and there's like 10 guns deaths a year
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	What about stabbings rapings and murders in general?
paxman 01.24.13	"Someone please make a valid point for gun control when people will not stop breaking in to houses, robbing stores, and killing people regardless." This is one of those arguments I just don't get. No one wants to ban a pistol or a shotgun. Come on.
Emim 01.24.13	"I want to move to Japan where no one has guns and there's like 10 guns deaths a year" everyone just commits suicide
Trebor17 01.24.13	The question you have to ask is whether our military would be willing to fight their own people Do they still brainwash them hard enough I don't know
KjSwantko 01.24.13	"They love the second amendment but hate those pesky 1st 13th and 14th ones" Neither of those are related to the 2nd Amendment, nor does Texas (or any other state) violate either. ugh
YankeeDudel 01.24.13	i just dont like giving up anymore freedoms man. we've already given up so many in the name of terrorism. now the govt is basically spying on everybody's computer and storing it for years dont need a warrant to use it against you. i mean when does it end. i think everyone agrees on tighter background checks and closing the gun show loophole but I think everything else should stay where it is. 99.whatever% of gun owners never do shit.
paxman 01.24.13	Went way over your head, swantko
omnipanzer 01.24.13	The issue isn't gun control, it's mental health. The budgets for your local services were slashed under the Republican administration (which is common) and they need to be re-funded. Do you know who is taking care of your local nut jobs? I wouldn't mind the parents being shamed a bit as well. In most of these cases someone knew these individuals were not stable but did nothing about it.
Trebor17 01.24.13	Repeal the patriot act agreed
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Gotcha hyp and I agree, but it would end in more violence if the solution is take away American's guns. The real solution is out there and it's what some of you have said. The 6 month mental check and wait. Here in Oklahoma we already have a 3 month wait AFTER you pass.
YankeeDudel 01.24.13	well considering more soliders are dying from suicide than anything else now and they overwhelming donated the most money to ron paul last election to come home I think they're a pretty conflicted bunch.
KjSwantko 01.24.13	"Went way over your head, swantko" Yeah I guess being a grad school student for criminal law leaves me too knowledgeable for dumbass "jokes"
KjSwantko 01.24.13	Repeal the patriot act agreed [2]
paxman 01.24.13	How is banning the AR-15 and clips above ten rounds taking away American's guns? Some people aren't getting this.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	@Trebor: here in Tulsa we sometimes have peaceful protesters on the streets against going to war wit Iran and I always see 20 year old men walking up and talking shit, arguing with the protesters, and getting angry. They usually look like they are armed forces all buffed up n buzzed.
paxman 01.24.13	"Yeah I guess being a grad school student for criminal law leaves me too knowledgeable for dumbass "jokes" I didn't make the joke, but I understand what Trebor was getting at. The second amendment is probably the only amendment rednecks around here have any knowledge of, and it's a skewed knowledge at that.
Trebor17 01.24.13	I was mostly making a joke that stereotypical gun nut rednecks hate black people buy yeah
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	It's not that I don't get they don't want to take away guns, but the lower clips and AR15 bullshit isn't the solution to the problem either! It's mental health mostly!! We have to fix the violence on Earth! Can't we realize that we can't forever be the way we are? We have to fix ourselves from the inside, not add addition red tape and fine print with additional regulation or whatever the hell
ncguitar 01.24.13	Swords, shields & bows were badass.
paxman 01.24.13	Yeah, treb I was just supplementing it
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	I would go back in time to see Alexander the Great with all the medicines in the present world, keep them for myself, kill Alexander, and shape the world right away to a peaceful manner. I'd be bringing a car, a plane, a battleship and a crew of 100 clones of me. By the time 2012 rolls around we will be living in space like Star Trek.
paxman 01.24.13	Fuckin hippy
KjSwantko 01.24.13	@Pax, Their belief that you can own almost any firearm you want isn't "skewed"; it's simply a matter of opinion. The Constitution specifically used vagueness so it could be interpreted and evolve with times; it did not give specifics for what that right entails beyond using the term "militia", which many liberal scholars try to argue is the current National Guard, even though that doesn't make sense since the National Guard is under the authority of the U.S. Army, thus its hardly a militia in the traditional sense. After all, the actual intent of the 2nd Amendment IS to prevent tyrannical government and from dictators being able to seize power. It's no coincidence that the 2nd Amendment comes directly after the 1st Amendment, which gives us our most important rights (free speech, religion, press, redress of gov't grievances). So again, to say Texans' knowledge of the 2nd Amendment is "skewed" is hardly truth (that is just your opinion on their beliefs).
paxman 01.24.13	Yes, it is my opinion that that their belief is skewed.
YankeeDudel 01.24.13	if the govt did go tyrannical I think most of the soldiers would quickly join the people, but a few of them wouldnt. all theyd need are tanks and drones and what not but Im not sure if theyd destroy our whole country like that. either way we outnumber the government by a lot so I think we would hold our own if shit got really real. we formed america because britain was bein stupid in the first place and history if filled with crazy governments so its naive to think we're somehow above that when we're slowly goin down the tubes as it is.
paxman 01.24.13	Out of curiosity, swantko, in what state do you reside?
KjSwantko 01.24.13	New York
YankeeDudel 01.24.13	we did put japanese in concentration camps during ww2. its not like it didnt happen before. im sure the soldiers were just "following orders". im sure they will "follow orders" again.
KjSwantko 01.24.13	Most soldiers will do whatever they have to (including killing Americans) if it means that they and their family are taken care of by the government.
Ignimbrite 01.24.13	i support access to guns but A) assault weapons were created for the express purpose of killing people and i see no reason why civilians should be allowed to own them and B) i don't get why the NRA and republicans throw bitch fits whenever someone proposed to do something perfectly sensible like more thorough background checks or longer waiting periods or giving bullets laser engravings so that they're easier to track
paxman 01.24.13	Okay, I am actually a Texan and I can tell you that a lot of these guys around here are racist, homophobic assholes who believe that the founding fathers granted them express permission to own huge arsenals of assault rifles, handguns, shotguns, crossbows, whatever--but they would never bat an eye if a black man was denied his rights. All they care about is shooting. Therefore, their perception of the constitution is skewed to their onwn convenience. I'm not saying all Texans are like this, but I know a good deal of them. @swantko
sideburndude 01.24.13	Gunz
Mickeymau5 01.24.13	Guns rule
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Yankeedudel shut yer caboodle
Dolving999 01.24.13	Why do you people keep thinking so hard? Go play some MGS4 and understand there's only one very simple solution: ID-locked guns.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Yeah okay. Guns aren't the issue.
Calc 01.24.13	buncha sociologists/philosophers in here
DamnVanne 01.24.13	e) no solution
Crysis 01.24.13	What really rustles my jimmies is when gun control advocates say things like "You don't hunt with an AR-15" (even though many people do) and "We are going to protect the rights of sportsmen and hunters". The fucking 2nd Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting. It is to protect citizens against a tyrannical government NOT to preserve the rights of old jim bob to shoot baited deer with his camo bolt action rifle from a blind. And will people please realize that ACTUAL assault weapons have been banned since the 80's, what you buy now are just semiautomatic rifles that LOOK like real AKs or M4s. Anyone with any questions about the lawmakers that are behind this shit and what the know about the things they are banning can reference this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo
auberginedreams 01.24.13	in a perfect world nobody would have guns, but realistically regardless of any laws people will still have guns. i mean herion is illegal but people still have access to it. if guns are outlawed then only the outlaws will have guns.
auberginedreams 01.24.13	"And will people please realize that ACTUAL assault weapons have been banned since the 80's, what you buy now are just semiautomatic rifles" yeah this is annoying.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Crysis and Auber, I thank you for your common senses.
ILJ 01.24.13	guns are bad m'kay
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	People are bad. Get with the going before you are gone.
KjSwantko 01.24.13	"but they would never bat an eye if a black man was denied his rights. " Fair enough, pax.
Ignimbrite 01.24.13	"in a perfect world nobody would have guns, but realistically regardless of any laws people will still have guns. i mean herion is illegal but people still have access to it. if guns are outlawed then only the outlaws will have guns." http://www.theonion.com/articles/gorilla-sales-skyrocket-after-latest-gorilla-attac,30860/
ILJ 01.24.13	but guns are bad
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Yeah there's a lot of "confederates" in Oklahoma who think it means "guns, nigger hating, booze, and southern food". You have to look for them though. They don't get rambunctious enough in the city for you to notice. Well, mostly...
Crysis 01.24.13	"I, at age 20, could walk into the palmetto state armory and walk out in 15 minutes with an AR-15 only having undergone a simple background check and thats complete 100% grade A bullshit" That's absolutely not bullshit. What difference does it make what kind of firearm it is? You could also go and buy a pink .22LR bolt action rifle that's made for children, would be equally enraged about that situation? It doesn't matter what type of firearm it is that you buy, you still get a background check and you still leave a paper trail. You can go to the car dealership and purchase a Toyota Camry or a Lamborghini Gallardo with the same driver's license - clearly one is more dangerous than the other, so does that mean we should institute a 6-month psychiatric evaluation to determine whether the person buying the Gallardo is a safe enough driver to handle the car? Please. If you can pass a NICS background check, performed by none other than the FBI each and every time you purchase a firearm in a store, then you should be able to purchase whatever you want.
Crysis 01.24.13	Oh and also if anyone out there gets pissed when video games are blamed for mass murders yet thinks guns are the cause, you should really think that through.
KjSwantko 01.24.13	Crysis has got it right.
Storm In A Teacup 01.24.13	Glad someone does.
Ignimbrite 01.24.13	...but it's been proven time and time again that video games influence jack shit.
KjSwantko 01.24.13	@Ignimbrite, lets think about this for a minute.......companies spend billions of dollars on 20sec TV commercials to influence you to buy their stuff, but yet playing hundreds of hours of video games couldn't being influencing people to harm others? Clearly what we watch has an impact on us (consciously or not).
Calc 01.24.13	not on all of us.
KjSwantko 01.24.13	Of course not on all of us. Not on me either; but to think there aren't a lot of people affected by what they watch on TV is to be just naive.
SeaAnemone 01.24.13	NRA is a bunch of fucking idiots how has this not been brought up yet? Anyway, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. Common sense tells me that this an area that I'd be happy if the government was to curtail citizens' liberties, but I really can't tell whether this is blatant disregard for the 2nd Amendment which is really rather ambiguous in a lot of ways [anyone else see that recent article by "I forget who" that made a compelling argument that 2A is directed only towards militias as opposed to individuals?... it was convincing]. Point is, nobody should be bringing up gun control as an answer to recent shootings and tragedies without first having a long discussion about the state of mental health support in this country.
SeaAnemone 01.24.13	Damn this would all be better if we just listened to Aristotle and ditched this democracy thing
Chrisjon89 01.24.13	They outlawed them in Australia years ago, I think in the mid 90s after the Port Arthur massacre. Facts say that it drastically cut down on all the bullshit. Criminals still get their hands on them obviously. I still hear about shootings fairly often but these big stories you read about and watch generally seem to be about troubled kids and are on a way larger scale with no real logical motivation - just random killing. Those same kind of troubled kids would exist in Australia - we just never seem to get to that stage anymore.
DrMaximus 01.24.13	Agreed with Sea. Back round check need to be done thoroughly, but mental health also needs to be taken seriously. Giving people pills is not even close to a proper way of dealing with mental health.
Calc 01.24.13	"Giving people pills is not even close to a proper way of dealing with mental health." what do you do?
YankeeDudel 01.24.13	Videogames are such a lame argument from old people who dont understand them, yet will watch movies like The Godfather and the other thousands of violent films and think thats dandy. People have been killing eachother since forever. Much moreso than before videogames. The worst school tragedy was a bombing in 1927 that killed 38 kids and 6 adults. This was all before video fuckin games and with no guns. If you banned all guns in this country people would just bomb shit instead. Prob easier anyway.
Ignimbrite 01.24.13	"@Ignimbrite, lets think about this for a minute.......companies spend billions of dollars on 20sec TV commercials to influence you to buy their stuff, but yet playing hundreds of hours of video games couldn't being influencing people to harm others? Clearly what we watch has an impact on us (consciously or not)." http://www.parentstv.org/ptc/videogames/reviews/study.pdf http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2013/01/violent-video-games-not-shown-cause-real-world-violence
DrMaximus 01.24.13	@ Calc I dunno man. All I know is more needs to be done. Parents, as well, need to take mental illness seriously. If you're child is not mentally stable, why would you keep guns around the house (Different if the guns are locked up).
Emim 01.24.13	Crysis wins thread
liledman 01.24.13	"It doesn't matter what type of firearm it is that you buy, you still get a background check and you still leave a paper trail. You can go to the car dealership and purchase a Toyota Camry or a Lamborghini Gallardo with the same driver's license - clearly one is more dangerous than the other, so does that mean we should institute a 6-month psychiatric evaluation to determine whether the person buying the Gallardo is a safe enough driver to handle the car? Please. If you can pass a NICS background check, performed by none other than the FBI each and every time you purchase a firearm in a store, then you should be able to purchase whatever you want." Not a fair comparison. Guns are made to do damage, cars are not (then consider all of the safety laws in place regulating the car industry, not to mention road rules). And yes, there is a problem with the glorification of reckless, inconsequential violence in some mainstream action movies, games and tv shows. The problem of violence is a cultural one, and America seems to be more problematic than other developed nations with tougher gun laws (eg. Japan and Australia). An interesting take on the psychology of violence in games particular, is that it is not necessarily an influence on your psyche, i.e. explicitly encouraging you to be violent thereby turning the self violent, but instead more of a permission: the game world allows the true violent self, unconstrained by cultural baggage, to engage in violent acts. It is worthwhile looking at the effect games and movies have on violent behaviour or tendencies, but it is even more useful to consider the violent tendencies which give rise to such games and movies. Some other interesting ideas: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/01/20131201347449259.html
DrMaximus 01.24.13	@ Crysis The difference between guns and cars, is that some people acquire guns with the intention of killing people. Whereas, people don't acquire a car with the intention of killing someone. So no a 6 month psychiatric evaluation for buying a car is not necessary.
liledman 01.24.13	"Those same kind of troubled kids would exist in Australia - we just never seem to get to that stage anymore." Yeah and the mention of "a man with a gun" in a story about a crime in Melbourne or whatever actually frightens people. There is a huge difference in public perception – I would be genuinely freaked out if a friend owned a gun. This issue of desensitisation toward weapons is definitely a problem with the cultural stance towards violence in the US. I don't really see a need to own a gun anyway.
Hyperion1001 01.24.13	"instead more of a permission: the game world allows the true violent self, unconstrained by cultural baggage" this is what ive always wondered. why do i enjoy killing things in video games even though i never would act on it in real life? ive always boiled it down to the fact that my mind knows it isnt real and yet still gets to indulge in these basic instincts towards violence without any real life consqequenses. its like when i watch a violent movie and someone gets gunned down or explodes i enjoy watching it but when i see these GIF's on the internet of actual people dying and getting mutilated it makes my stomach turn. if my mind didnt subconsciously understand that killing in a virtual world is basically inconsequential when why are the reactions different?
RosaParks 01.24.13	free guns for everyone start killing each other to stunt the insane population growth our world is faced with
MuhNamesTyler 01.24.13	sputnik will solve this issue yep
RosaParks 01.24.13	i just did
cirq 01.24.13	the government staged the connecticut shooting to push their agenda.
RosaParks 01.24.13	do you have definitive proof (eg. official government documents, recording of someone admitting it, etc)
Wolfhorde 01.24.13	WHY OH WHY DID THIS HAVE TO HAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPEN. seriously though, discussing these matters here can never be good. just look at cirq pulling some of the most stupid statements on the website again.
Emim 01.25.13	this is all bush's fault
Ignimbrite 01.25.13	yeah fuck that guy amirite i woke up too late to go to breakfast before class this morning and i blame Bush
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	"yet still gets to indulge in these basic instincts towards violence without any real life consqequenses." Thats it Hype. We got urges and instincts. Everybody has the capacity and need to use violence when necessary. Im sayin why do you enjoy death metal so much with all the gory album covers, lyrics, and loud ass music? Im sure in real life you're a pleasant little chap but then you'll throw on Gorguts and people will think you're a serial killer in waiting. Death and black metal speak to you somehow but why? Do you think its made you more violent? Or are some violent people just attracted to the music?
Wolfhorde 01.25.13	Y'know, some things are left to professionals for reasons. Good reasons. And if you seriously believe that a certain genre of music speaks to primal urges, then fucking lol.
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	Ive heard a lot of people say that but ay you must know them better than they do
Wolfhorde 01.25.13	What, are they fucking retarded? If certain genres of music were able to speak to primal urges in humans in general then there would be many more people listening to said genre - even if they didn't necessarily know for what reason. Oh yeah, feeling like "killing other people" is btw not a primal urge - more a primitively oriented but culturally implemented thinking/feeling/acting.
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	Well first of all Im sure more people would like death metal if there wasnt a bad stigma around it and they were exposed to it more. Most dont even want to be associated with it regardless if they like it or not. Second people have been killing eachother since forever in every culture man. If there were no penalties of jail youd be seeing alot more of it like there used to be. Its hardwired into us which is why so many of us enjoy violent media. If it wasnt there we wouldnt like it.
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	But the vast majority of us can easily distinguish whats real and fantasy. Which is why I think heavy music and violent movies/video games can be cathartic and positive if used the right way. Sort of like how getting a good workout in can relieve stress.
Wolfhorde 01.25.13	Sounds like a stereotype, where I live nobody gives a crap what they're being associated with (mostly not very good for them) and I highly doubt that could 'convert' someone from whatever he has been listening to for years to death metal - especially not with the argument "but primal urges!" Yes, I don't get how this has any connection with "primal urges/instincts". There is no instinct that makes you kill people, as you said yourself it's culture so there's no 'natural' component behind it (except for survival which makes you defend yourself against ANYTHING). Then there's the question of the definition of violence the further you'd tread down this path fo argumentation and as to what extent it's "violence" or "shit happening". I mean the same goes for accidents, natural disaster, 'humain failure' of normal kind ect. It's less about what happens than what people get out of it, which is bound to cognitive associations.
Storm In A Teacup 01.25.13	Gosh we sound selfish lol
fromtheinside 01.25.13	those motherfucking parents!
Storm In A Teacup 01.25.13	Blame the parents says an entire generation.... -_-
North0House2 01.25.13	I guarantee that a civil war/civil unrest will stem out of this. Just saying. They can have my guns, I don't care at all. Sure, it means I can't defend myself if a robber breaks into my house or whatever. But screw it, take my laptop, I won't kill a man over it. I'll just go buy a new one. It's a device, not worth a life. The game changes, of course, when one of my loved ones is in threat due to a home invasion. But, you don't need assault rifles and crap for that. But, there are so many people I know who will die for their guns (ironic, right?). So, it won't end well for the nation, I think.
North0House2 01.25.13	Yet, at the same time, if they ban guns that's just flat out retarded on every freaking level. I mean, since when do criminals follow laws? If a criminal wants a gun, he'll get a gun if he wants it bad enough. If you're a law abiding citizen, then who has the gun and who doesn't? The criminal has the gun, the murderer has the gun, you don't. And if somehow a criminal can't get a gun and he wants to kill, he'll make poison, he'll get a crossbow, get a sword, get a knife, rig a house, make explosives, assault someone and beat them to death. I mean, really, there's no stopping it. We live in a screwed over world and people are animals, so we'll kill each other. You can't change that and live in some "utopia" and if you think that people are naturally coerced to do good, then you might want to rethink that a bit. We're awful creatures.
Emim 01.25.13	guns are metal, microwaves are also metal u wouldn't ban microwaves would u???!
North0House2 01.25.13	We need to ban Varg.
Storm In A Teacup 01.25.13	Great I hope we aren't about to keep going in circles on this... Who am I kidding
Emim 01.25.13	they can take our guns, but they can never take our FREEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
North0House2 01.25.13	There's no way to NOT go in circles with this thing. It really revolves around what horrible things humans are, and if we think we can fix ourselves or not- which is an endless argument because we don't want to admit that we're inherently evil, but we know we have to change it.
oltnabrick 01.25.13	Loading Gun Safety... ████████████████ 100% Complete.
North0House2 01.25.13	We need to put condoms on our guns.
fromtheinside 01.25.13	"We need to ban(g) Varg"??? sentence is much better
tombits 01.25.13	move to australia, tightest gun restrictions in the world yo
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	Wolfe my point was that in every culture over thousands of years we've had violence, so that proves we are violent regardless of how we're raised or what media we consume. Movies and video games have only been around for a little while, and we were killing eachother much before that. Its in our makeup. Every single one of us has had violent thoughts or acted violent at least a few times in our lives. Its up to the individual to act above those things, but they're there. How you can deny that and act like we're just a bunch of angels if it wasnt for "culture" is naive. Also the definition of violence we're talking about is pretty clear. So yea TL;DR Videogames and movies dont do shit we always been wackos and used to be way worse.
Trophycase 01.25.13	I just don't understand the whole "criminals will still get their hands on guns" argument. Especially when the same people just said it was a mental health issue, not a crime issue. You think a 15 year old kid is going to by a semi-auto off of the black market? You must be kidding yourself. Criminals may get their hands on guns still, but the question is if the number of crimes/deaths prevented by guns outweighs the amount that would be stopped if guns were illegal all together. And then there is the whole "prevention of tyranny" thing, and that opens up a whole can of worms. Also @hype, while you may still cringe at the GIFs of people getting mutilated (as do I), I would be willing to bet that after you watched it a couple times, it wouldn't seem nearly as shocking to you, nor would any mutilations in the future. Take a scary or violent movie for example, it's like a drug, after you get used to a certain amount of it, you need more to get the same effect that you used to.
Trophycase 01.25.13	Also, nobody is saying that without a culture of violence, we would be "angels"... that's just completely extrapolating the whole idea to make your point. You have absolutely no statistics to back up the points you are making. Sure, people have been killing forever, but has it increased? has it decreased? What are the effects of gun control or lack thereof on these statistics? Are we sure that crimes were nearly as well documented before the age of mass media. There are so many different points that need to be considered before you just jump to stupid conclusions. Everyone does make the choice to be violent or not, the question is whether that choice is easier or more instinctual due to violence in media.
Trophycase 01.25.13	And I agree with North, the world will always be inherently imperfect. But it's up to education and awareness to mitigate that as best as possible. I'm sure glorification of guns and violence isn't helping anything, and if people think it doesn't have any effect, then they are kidding themselves. Like it or not, guns are a tool for killing. What else are they used for?
Trophycase 01.25.13	"Wolfe my point was that in every culture over thousands of years we've had violence, so that proves we are violent regardless of how we're raised or what media we consume. Movies and video games have only been around for a little while, and we were killing eachother much before that. Its in our makeup. " Notice how you point out that every culture is raised with violence, and therefore violence is inevitable. That's an extremely pointless argument, not to mention, by that same argument I can't imagine exposing kids to violence for longer periods of time and at a younger age is doing anything to help the situation.
tombits 01.25.13	from an outsiders perspective it's obvious that stricter gun regulations are directly proportional to lower levels of violence, but since weapons are so deeply embedded in american culture (the fact that it's a constitutional right still blows my mind) makes enforcing further restrictions a nightmare and a serious cause for civil unrest. from what i understand australia had similarly liberal laws during the '90s before the port arthur massacre, after which a ban on semi-automatic weapons was imposed; the government used a gun buy-back scheme which went off without a hitch. obviously the historical significance and scope of each country is drastically different but it's interesting to compare the two.
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	And Im callin bullshit on mass media affecting us all that much. Check the Harvard study on gun control that proved gun control has no real effect on crime/murder overall. Every country was different. Switzerland has the most guns but one of the lowest crime rates due to responsible gun ownership. I mean come on just ask yourself if youd rather live now or 2000 years ago as far as violence is concerned. You really think we're worse now? We used to rage huge battles to the death with swords and bows and hammers for thousands of years. Its only very recently that we have guns, nukes, drones, and other more advanced weapons that our soldiers dont have to even fight face to face like that anymore. The stone cold facts are though that America's murder rate has been almost cut in half since the early 90s. Meanwhile Britain's violent crime rate has risen since they banned guns. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now
Storm In A Teacup 01.25.13	EVERYBODY ON THE COUNT OF THREE ACCEPT CRIME ONE TWO THREE!
Trophycase 01.25.13	Did you even read the second link you sent? It specifically says that the crime rate has dropped due to improvements in technology and policing. He and others give four main reasons for the decline: - Increased incarceration, including longer sentences, that keeps more criminals off the streets. - Improved law enforcement strategies, including advances in computer analysis and innovative technology. - The waning of the crack cocaine epidemic that soared from 1984 to 1990, which made cocaine cheaply available in cities across the US. - The graying of America characterized by the fastest-growing segment of the US population – baby boomers – passing the age of 50. I don't think that any data points to gun ownership having any causation when regarding decreasing crime rates. Your point about Switzerland isn't necessarily the best considering it is the wealthiest per capita country in the world, there is really much less of a motive for violent crime to occur in the first place. While the U.S. overall is very wealthy, there are plenty of areas that aren't at all, and the crime statistics would back up the fact that more crime occurs in poor areas (where there is a culture of violence, especially gun violence).
Trophycase 01.25.13	I understand that guns can be owned and used responsibly, but once again, a select few people ruin it for everyone, and show that the general populace isn't worthy of that "privilege" (right, I suppose). Given proper training and screening, I think that it's fine. Just keep them out of the hands of people that have any motive to use it violently.
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	3/4 of gun deaths are gang related in highly populated urban areas. These are not people who get guns legally. Most of the rest are suicides. Over 99% of legal gun owners never do anything and only like 3% of murders are done with an assault rifle. Why are we attacking them when they arent the issue?
Trophycase 01.25.13	I'm not, I brought up points about a culture of violence, as well as the fact that people should be screened before buying guns. For the same reason people are screened at an airport. Most people would never even think to bring something deadly on a plane, but it's for the few that do. Unfortunately, guns are inherently tools for killing, in the same way that a nuke is. I'm not denying that they are effective deterrence in some cases. I was just questioning whether that deterrent factor outweighed the problems they cause.
Chrisjon89 01.25.13	"Yet, at the same time, if they ban guns that's just flat out retarded on every freaking level. I mean, since when do criminals follow laws?" But the events that ignite these debates rarely have anything to do with criminals. It's generally messed up kids who need help. They often seem to be bright students. From how you people describe it, the system America has in place right now makes it easy for guns to fall into their hands. I don't think people in favour of banning guns have the idea that it'll eradicate violent crime. There's still violent crime in Australia. There are still drive-by shootings. We just don't have these large scale massacres anymore which seems to be what drives these debates. As liledman said ^ someone having a gun over here is a big deal and it's alarming to people. And it's difficult to change when it's so deeply ingrained in the culture. People over here were resistant to it as well when they changed laws, but statistically things are much better now since they made that decision.
Trophycase 01.25.13	Also, 3% is a pretty high number. I'm also assuming a lot of these are mass killings, which emotionally scar thousands of people from just seeing them in the first place (think to how many kids are going to be emotionally damaged and fucked over for a large period of their lives because they witnessed their peers and teachers being slaughtered). There is more to consider than just simple statistics.
YankeeDudel 01.25.13	No man. You must be thinking assault rifles = automatic. Those shits have been banned for a while. All we have now are semiautos. Single fire. Just because they're bigger doesnt mean everyone is just mass killing everybody with them lol. The Virgina Tech guy used pistols.
Trophycase 01.25.13	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States#Rate_of_homicides_by_firearm Also, reading this table is pretty convincing when it comes to our "culture of violence and guns" in the country. Obviously something is wrong. Economically speaking, I'm sure a large amount of completely pointless money is poured into foreign economies by buying their guns, where the money could be better off spent somewhere else.
Trophycase 01.25.13	I'll admit that my knowledge on actual gun types is pretty limited, I don't really think that detracts from my point about gun control in general. And from my understanding, semi-autos are pretty fucking dangerous anyway
Trophycase 01.25.13	Also, I honestly can't see any reason for owning a semi-automatic rifle for any purpose other than killing something, so I really don't know why it's even concerning that they would be gone.
cirq 01.25.13	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrngdgUixYg
Wolfhorde 01.25.13	"Wolfe my point was that in every culture over thousands of years we've had violence, so that proves we are violent regardless of how we're raised or what media we consume. Movies and video games have only been around for a little while, and we were killing eachother much before that. Its in our makeup." I never argued that, I argued that the phrasing people used was inaccurate. It's not "in your makeup" in biological sense is what I'm saying. The animal human does not have an instinct to kill other people as it does to eat food, fornicate and such. THAT is what I'm referring to, of course violence has always been in our culture and it could even be argued that in some sense it had it's merits. (relievin social tension by duels, Holmgang of the Germanics, no overpopulation ect) "Every single one of us has had violent thoughts or acted violent at least a few times in our lives. Its up to the individual to act above those things, but they're there." Once again, I never said they weren't. I just said that there needs to be differentiation between what's culture and what's nature. You can shut out violent thoughts, you can not shut out primal instincts. "How you can deny that and act like we're just a bunch of angels if it wasnt for "culture" is naive. Also the definition of violence we're talking about is pretty clear." What? Dude, don't overinterpret what I'm saying. I never said that's the case, I simply said the violence was more of a cultural thing than a biological aka primal instinct - I don't think I need to argue the latter is almost impossible or at least extremely hard to shut out.
CrimsonLies 01.25.13	Debating about gun control on sputnikmusic. Never a good idea.
Wolfhorde 01.25.13	^ 123
savagecabbage 01.25.13	Enough about guns lets talk about abortion.
Crysis 01.25.13	"Not a fair comparison. Guns are made to do damage, cars are not (then consider all of the safety laws in place regulating the car industry, not to mention road rules)." Do you have any idea how many laws there already are concerning firearms, firearms safety and manufacturing, and firearms regulation? We're talking tens of thousands. To say that the reason we should regulate guns because they were "Made to do damage" is a bullshit reason to ban something. How about bows and arrows? Knives? I could say the same about each of those, yet you don't see people crying for bow regulation, where we should limit people to wooden recurve bows instead of compound bows because "those compound bows are made to kill as many things as possible as quickly as possible". I'm not saying we should regulate bows or knives, I'm just saying that because something's original purpose was to destroy DOES NOT mean that is its sole purpose. I own fifteen guns, and have yet to damage anything more than paper or an aluminum soda can. There is absolute NO REASON to take something myself and literally millions of others use safely and consciously for sport and fun and ban it because of a small minority who use it for malicious purposes. Just because one guy takes his knife and stabs someone doesn't mean you go into restaurants and start taking the knives from the chef claiming it is for the safety and well-being of everyone else.
DrMaximus 01.25.13	SOMEWHAT agreed with Crysis. The issue that needs to be heavily discussed is mental illness. Guns are obviously part of the issue, but it's mental illness that needs to be taken seriously.
KILL 01.25.13	repair ze gun control
liledman 01.25.13	What do you use your guns for Crysis? Do you not damage cans and paper? Outside of damaging things there are not a lot of purposes for a gun. "To say that the reason we should regulate guns because they were "Made to do damage" is a bullshit reason to ban something." It is a perfectly legitimate reason to ban something. Kitchen knives serve their purpose as utensils, it is utterly ridiculous to place them in the same class. Hunting knives made to kill, or samurai swords? Yes, ban them. I would not be averse to bow control, but it is not discussed as it is nowhere close to being as problematic as guns. It is not a bullshit reason because they are weapons, whether they are used to kill people or not, and it happens that many are being killed by them. "Just because one guy takes his knife and stabs someone doesn't mean you go into restaurants and start taking the knives from the chef claiming it is for the safety and well-being of everyone else." Again, this is not a real comparison. Knives are used to cut food. Cars are used for transport. Guns are weapons in their primary purpose. "Agreed with Crysis. The issue that needs to be heavily discussed is mental illness. Guns are obviously part of the issue, but it's mental illness that needs to be taken seriously." Why not focus on both?
DrMaximus 01.26.13	Agreed with liledman. It's ridiculous to compare guns, cars, and knives. A gun was created for the sole purpose of inflicting damage on other people, no other reason.
Mickeymau5 01.26.13	and hunt
Mickeymau5 01.26.13	Isn't Britain the most violent country in Europe and they banned guns lets ban ppl
Storm In A Teacup 01.26.13	Shooting cans and paper isn't for fun. We're talking about practice. Practicing to shoot the man who broke into your house and thought you were defenseless.
Emim 01.26.13	Sputnikmusic.com: showing how dangerously stupid my generation truly can be
Storm In A Teacup 01.26.13	Sir, the only contribution you've made to the conversation is pointing out Crysis made some of the best comments, besides your jokes. Please- enlighten us!
mynameisdarthchann 01.26.13	"Well I mean you can start by not letting people with documented mental illness buy guns" thats discrimination against retards free the mentally ill
Crysis 01.26.13	"What do you use your guns for Crysis?" Target practice, fun, personal protection, piece of mind, and admiration of the sheer engineering of the system. You argue that we should ban guns because "Outside of damaging things there are not a lot of purposes for a gun". Since you won't accept my argument for knives and won't address my argument for bows, slingshots, or other weapons, answer me this: What is the purpose of something like alcohol? I see no point in it other than impairing people, causing them to make bad judgments and in many cases hurt or kill people. Why can't we treat alcohol like guns, banning hard alcohol because it does more damage to a person's sobriety faster than beer? Why don't we make merchants track who buys alcohol in large quantities - surely these people are much more prone to getting drunk and killing someone in a car accident? No? This doesn't make sense? Of course not. Whether you agree with my analogies or not, the point stands. Something can be specifically make to damage things (whether it be a bullet damaging a target or a shot of vodka damaging someone's good judgement) but that is still absolutely no reason to restrict them. I don't know what country you are from liledman but if I had to guess it would be a nation with tight gun control laws like the UK, Australia, or the like, because it seems like you really don't understand why I argue against gun control. If you grew up in a place that has treated guns as the root of all evil or as taboo devices used solely for murdering children or cops or whatever, then I feel very sorry. Maybe it would do some good to realize that guns have purposes beyond damaging things (even though things like target shooting with your son or daughter or your father or grandfather still damages the targets), it provides a way to connect with people on a common ground and do something you love with pieces of engineering that are admirable.
Crysis 01.26.13	I've lived in places with very strict gun control laws (for US standards, of course) like Massachusetts. I live in New Hampshire now, one state north, and the attitude difference is astounding. In Mass guns were treated as objects that could serve no purpose other than causing the death of another person, and maybe just maybe that attitude plays a part in why gun crime in Mass is way higher than in NH - a state where guns are treated as an object that can be used for good purpose as I've outlined above as well as bad. The key is making it clear that it is BOTH - not just one. A gun will do what the person holding it desires, and whether that is plinking with some cans in the backyard with dad or ending the life of an innocent child, the gun will do what the man or woman behind it is so inclined to do. Realizing that guns are not just used for evil and not solely used for good but instead a combination of both is a massive step in really solving these mass shooting issues. Restricting guns WILL NOT EVER solve the violent crime problem because guns are not the problem - people are. But maybe a bit of education on firearms (read: not gun control) coupled with proper mental health resources will go a long way. Done posting in here.
mynameisdarthchann 01.26.13	fuck guns masturbating is more fun
oltnabrick 01.26.13	Worst thread on sputnik, prob ever.
foxblood 01.26.13	i can't properly express my disapproval of this thread
mynameisdarthchann 01.26.13	ahahahahah hunting bows lmao going on a school shooting hang on just let me reload my arrow ahahahahaha
liledman 01.26.13	"and hunt" Killing animals is still killing, and when it is just done for sport or fun it is in no way admirable or worth keeping. "Since you won't accept my argument for knives and won't address my argument for bows, slingshots, or other weapons" I accepted your argument and refuted it concerning knives, and I agree that bows are dangerous though are in no way as big a problem as guns. "What is the purpose of something like alcohol? I see no point in it other than impairing people, causing them to make bad judgments and in many cases hurt or kill people. Why can't we treat alcohol like guns, banning hard alcohol because it does more damage to a person's sobriety faster than beer? Why don't we make merchants track who buys alcohol in large quantities - surely these people are much more prone to getting drunk and killing someone in a car accident?" Again, this analogy is something I simply see no sense in. If you were arguing about cigarettes or marijuana, then maybe the comparison to alcohol stands, but it sheds no light on a discussion about weapons. Alcohol's purpose is to be consumed and enjoyed as a beverage, and whether it is done so safely or not, it is not a weapon. " If you grew up in a place that has treated guns as the root of all evil or as taboo devices used solely for murdering children or cops or whatever" Well, yes, I live in Australia, though I have not had to grow up with any propaganda against guns, but instead I have grown up somewhere where guns are rare, and the only time we hear about them is if there is a shooting (by a cop or civilian). People can bond over many things (explosives, heroin, extremist political views, etc.) though it does not make those things as such any more acceptable. I can understand the admiration for a piece of engineering, and that growing up with them and the bonds you share with family and others having a strong impact on the way you value guns, though I of course find it alien. I don't see self-defence as a reason to own a gun, though maybe I don't understand how bad the living conditions are throughout the states. I doubt it is that bad everywhere, however.
liledman 01.26.13	"Restricting guns WILL NOT EVER solve the violent crime problem because guns are not the problem - people are" It will go a long way to solving gun violence, as it has done in other parts of the world. I agree that people are the problem (guns need to be aimed and fired), and that mental health needs addressing (the US healthcare debates similarly baffle me), though part of my earlier arguments were about the culture of guns, and the mentality it instills in people. The people who use these weapons for wholly evil purposes, are a product of a nation fascinated with guns and patriarchal power. Banning or imposing heavy restrictions on guns will not solve the issue, no; but it does not mean that it should not be done. Healthcare needs to be addressed, and awareness of mental health issues should be strengthened. The large-scale problem is the culture of violence, and the attaching of patriotic values to weapons, which gun violence is a product of. The way America conducts itself in the world cannot be ignored in this case either. "ahahahahah hunting bows lmao going on a school shooting hang on just let me reload my arrow ahahahahaha" We Need to Talk About Kevin
mynameisdarthchann 01.26.13	idk im sure there are more potent versions of it but im just thinking of the oens you see in skyrim and shit just imagine someone rocking up with one of those movie looks really good though thanks for pointing it out and yeah a lot of yanks own guns cos it makes them think theyre tough and big, kinda like pitbulls here
mynameisdarthchann 01.26.13	like this http://medieval.stormthecastle.com/images/bows/firing-a-longbow.jpg