claygurnz: The Last Dance

claygurnz 04.22.20	Can't wait for them to interview Dennis Rodman
dedex 04.22.20	Oh yeah man these first two episodes were so gud. Scottie indeed was selfish but man 18M over 7 years lol he was ripped off It's nice they did not release all episodes at once, it feels like a true TV show and not another binge-watch shit
AlexKzillion 04.22.20	I watched the first episode but not the second just yet. I read the Jordan Rules a couple weeks ago too so it’s cool to see the way the dynasty ends as in depth as the way it starts as someone who was only alive during Jordan’s Wizard years
ElioG 04.22.20	I'd say that constant back and forth, back and forth, back and forth doesn't work really well on the first 2 episodes but other than that, it's good. As for Scottie, I suppose it's really difficult to be the best number 2 in your career and be paid like a good number 4.
manosg 04.22.20	If I remember correctly, Scottie started complaining about his salary long before the incident with the surgery. It was when the Bulls acquired Kukoc with a salary higher than his. And yeah he was severely underpaid but it was bad decision making from his side and his manager, can't blame the Bulls or Krause who has always been depicted as the devil for some reason.
AlexKzillion 04.22.20	“It was when the Bulls acquired Kukoc with a salary higher than his.” Even before then they held money/a roster spot aside for Kukoc just in case he decided he want to come over to the US that they could’ve paid Scottie. Not sure if they mentioned it in the episode but Pippen kinda sabotaged himself a bit. He grew up very poor, and when he made it to the NBA he was scared shitless of losing this financial security, so he took really long deals as quick as he could get them, never really trying to maximize his leverage until the end.
Deez 04.22.20	Not a BB fan either but did watch Jordan and the bulls now and then as a Kid. Really enjoyed both episodes too as all this will be new to me. Im on Scotties side though, All good to say put the team first when they trying to ship you out!
ElioG 04.22.20	"Whenever they speak Michael Jordan, they should speak Scottie Pippen".
claygurnz 05.14.20	I loved the bit from episode 5 or so when they talk about MJ loving to gamble, and he's on the plane playing low stakes blackjack. The reason 'I want your money in my pocket'.
InFlamesWeThrash666 05.14.20	I want a documentary about Rodman
claygurnz 05.14.20	I think there's a 30 for 30 about him
AlexKzillion 05.14.20	Tbh this doc has been kind of a disappointment for me. Like I still like it but it's generally a lot more surface level than all the trailers and hype made it out to be, and it totally got 'Straight Outta Compton'd' in that literally nothing made it into the doc without MJ's approval.
InFlamesWeThrash666 05.14.20	"I think there's a 30 for 30 about him" Will check
Trebor. 05.14.20	one of the best sports docs ever
SitarHero 05.14.20	I used to be a huge Michael Jordan fan and started playing basketball because of him and used to imitate him constantly, but the last 15 years of the sports media riding his dick constantly has made me pretty sick of the guy. He may have legitimate claim to the #1 spot as the greatest player of all time, but he's also pretty fucking overrated.
Deez 05.14.20	He may have legitimate claim to the #1 spot as the greatest player of all time, but he's also pretty fucking overrated.' How does that work exactly?
SitarHero 05.14.20	He was the best, but he wasn't untouchable and he wasn't unbeatable. The way people talk about him you would think he's never missed a shot, or lost a game, or failed to have a winning season or win a playoff series without Scottie Pippen.
Source 05.14.20	but did they discuss his dunk that saved the universe
SitarHero 05.14.20	Lola Bunny da real MVP. Also, that dunk didn't save the universe. It literally saved only him. The Space Jam hype is just another lie.
Keyblade 05.14.20	I don't like the Scottie Pippen argument. Scottie was there for all of his losses as well. same argument can be made for like Horace Grant or someone. the roster was trash before those 2 joined but yea he's my favorite player of all time, got me into the sport. there was something otherworldly about how he played. first time I ever got into sport was watching those finals series with the Jazz. seeing a mf hit a title clinching game winner as his last shot ever as a player (or so we thought) was next level. u can't watch that and not be a fan. he's pretty lame as a person tho, borderline psycophath lmao
SitarHero 05.14.20	"I don't like the Scottie Pippen argument. Scottie was there for all of his losses as well." The Bulls won 55 games and got within a whisker of the Eastern Conf Finals (and probably the Finals) when Jordan fucked off to play baseball. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't the best player on that team. I'm saying that he benefited from playing on a team that was pretty fucking great without him yet he gets 99.9% of the credit. Pippen is a goddamn saint for putting up with that Bullshit.
Deez 05.14.20	Deserves every big of recognition thrown his way imo. Number one of any major sport you deserve you balls licked. No ones saying he never missed a shot or lost a series that doesnt take away from the legendary things he did do. Living in the UK and not a massive BB fan ive never known much about his personality. He comes accross on here as a bully whos playing the 'I respect people when they stand up to me' card when usually thats typical weak bully shit. You just shit it when someone isnt afraid. I think he had to be this kind of twat to be as singular as he was in his obsession with winning though. The greats all have that and I get that. But yeah something off about him. Found this whole thing fascinating though since I didnt have a fking clue who Krause/reinsdorf and the like where/are. I do miss the time when celebs were megastars though and you didnt know shit about them. Nowadays people who you think are rivals are positing IG stories hanging out and shit. Breaks the 4th wall
Keyblade 05.14.20	I mean u could flip that and say they couldn't win without him despite having the exact same roster and a bigger emphasis on the triangle offense no player can win a chip on his own, which is why I laugh when ppl hold 2007 against LeBron, the hell was he supposed to do?
SitarHero 05.14.20	"I mean u could flip that and say they couldn't win without him despite having the exact same roster and a bigger emphasis on the triangle offense" Yeah, but they were still pretty damn good. And Pippen did a hell of a lot better without Jordan than Jordan did without Pippen. My point is not that Jordan wasn't great. My point is that the contributions of Pippen and the rest of the bulls are chronically undervalued in favour of the "Jordan's will to win narrative". That narrative is garbage because "Jordan's will to win" rarely got them to the playoffs and never got them out of the first round. "Jordan's will to win" is on par with "Tracy McGrady's will to win".
Keyblade 05.14.20	not a fair comparison re: Pip. Pippen without Jordan was playing on a championship team minus Mike. Mike without Pippen were his rookie year where he turned a the worst franchise in the league of the past 2 decades into a playoff team and his sophomore year where was injured the whole year and came back in time for the playoffs where he got bounced by the reigning champs with their 5 HoF starting lineup, but not without breaking a scoring record that still stands to this day in the process
ElioG 05.14.20	The best basketball player ever? Yes. The most influential basketball player ever? Yes. The most well known basketball player ever? Yes. The best all around athlete (mentally, politically etc.)? Not even in the top 15.
Keyblade 05.14.20	yea he was terrible in that respect. that "republicans buy sneakers too" is a huge blot on his legacy
SitarHero 05.14.20	Yo Key, again that's not the point I'm making. I'm not making the argument in any shape or form that Pippen was a better basketball player than Jordan or that the Bulls were better without Jordan. What I am saying is that Pippen and the Bulls were a lot better than anyone gives them credit for and that the myth of Jordan consistently devalues what they did in favour of building Jordan up to be an infallible one-man winning machine.
Keyblade 05.14.20	yea that's obviously not true, otherwise it wouldn't have taken him 7 years to win a championship. he was on some good teams. I think that 95/96 team could have probably won without him but his importance also can't be understated. basketball isn't like football where you need a very good squad to win things. you can have 1 superstar, and 2 or 3 good pieces around that and ur set. if you think of the 91-93 team and compare them some of the preceding and proceeding championship teams, it doesn't really stack up. Bad Boy Pistons were stacked, showtime Lakers AND Shaq/Kobe lakers were stacked. only team I can remember that won without an out and out superstar were the 04 Pistons, but they had an entire all star starting lineup
AlexKzillion 05.14.20	"that "republicans buy sneakers too" is a huge blot on his legacy" Not nearly as bad/contradictory as the whole LeChina debacle imo... and I say that as a big Lebron guy.
Keyblade 05.14.20	nah man, the dude who was running in NC was basically a klansman in a suit. literally said after he won, on national tv, and I quote, "there's no joy in Mudville tonight"
SitarHero 05.14.20	The Bulls had as many or more All-NBA players on every one of their Championship teams than their Finals opponents and were favoured in every Championship they won. They weren't some kind of David taking on Goliath.
AlexKzillion 05.14.20	@Key I agree it was shitty, but in Jordan's case it was an avaricious and near-sighted joke made by a guy who hated "being everyone's role model"... not a dude whose branded himself as "more than an athlete" his whole career all the sudden talking about how Morey's stand with hong kong tweet was hurting his pockets. Jordan's screw up was at least consistent with who he always was, contrary to LeChina.
Keyblade 05.14.20	idk man, u dont need to be Muhammad Ali to not endorse the opposition to a dude who in his words was not against bringing back segregation in your own state, to your own people LeChina wasn't a good look at all, but on the face of it, it pales in comparison to MJ's complete lack of spine imo
AlexKzillion 05.14.20	I see your point now haha. You'd think a pacifist would do somethinggg if an axe-murderer was coming for their family, but MJ just took the dogs out for a walk instead.