JamieTwort
03.08.16 | Rest of the list is breakcore for some reason. |
torts
03.08.16 | very, very on point. |
zakalwe
03.08.16 | lol. Nothing's changed! |
Jots
03.08.16 | "Rest of the list breakcore for some reason."
whew, was worried for a mo |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | Yeah felt like throwing a curveball in there. They're essentially just digs, Venetian Snares and Ruby My Dear have been my jams over the last couple of days. |
Jots
03.08.16 | what'd you think of RMD's last ep |
KILL
03.08.16 | hard to disagree but honestly i dont listen to enough newer prog to know for sure
or maybe i dont need to :D |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | @Johnny: Honestly I haven't given it a listen yet, it slipped under my radar last year. Now's the time for me to jam it I guess. |
smaugman
03.08.16 | lol steven wilson's last two records are superb |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | @KILL: lol yeah I don't think you need to, just keep jamming the real prog. |
KILL
03.08.16 | what i get from the scene is everyone is either doing the whole alt prog thing which does almost nothing for me or just dudes completely emulating the classic bands
there are some bands like haken kinda fusing elements of the two and producing some interesting things but they still dont get me juices flowing like the real deal |
KILL
03.08.16 | and yea i dug raven a hell of a lot but that was mostly due to the instrumentation and production. its pure emulation which is hardly progressive is it |
LotusFlower
03.08.16 | 3 is a very good EP |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | "It is either a poor parody of things gone past or is a cynical attempt to try and feed the prog community with the sort of stuff they are used to," says cynical man with little taste of irony in his mouth. |
KILL
03.08.16 | also yea kinda |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | steven wilson is shit
in fact the enid are one of the only prog groups i can stand, whole genre has little to interest me |
Cimnele
03.08.16 | tell Godfrey about Kayo Dot imo
I agree that all the neo-prog tinged stuff and most progressive metal sounds like someone cheese-grated a classic Genesis album and then reconstituted it into less impressive songs |
KILL
03.08.16 | @sinternet thats ur gay ass taste
check camel at least before writing off the best genre cept thrash |
DoofusWainwright
03.08.16 | Prog genre in 'is just muso noodling nonsense' shocker |
Piglet
03.08.16 | headed the hammer on the nail with steven wilson, jesus christ there's no one i despise more in the prog genre and yet i can't articulate in any coherent way as to why |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | 'best genre cept thrash'
it is clear we have completely different opinions, thrash is my least favourite genre possible
camel are ok from what i've heard ny them though, but steven wilson is still awful |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | agreed to everything in this list in general. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | The fact that he singled out Wilson is probably the most/only controversial thing about this (due to the universal praise he usually gets within the prog community) but I'm glad he did because Wilson really does represent everything I hate about the current/recent prog scene. |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | agreed once again |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | I think the prog ideology of pushing boundaries and actually progressing is close to dead within the prog genre. There are some bands with aspects of prog to them that keep it going, but it's more alive in other arenas where experimentation is less constrained.
I still really dig prog stuff though. And people tend to shit on modern prog/prog fusions more than they deserve. |
zakalwe
03.08.16 | "offer absolutely no content that is memorable or meaningful"
Fella speaks the truth about post 2000. |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | "but I'm glad he did because Wilson really does represent everything I hate about the current/recent prog scene."
There are some really good things he's had his hands in (Deadwing, Fear of a Blank Planet, various singles like "Trains"), a lot of mediocre things (Raven), and some not so great things (producing the most boring Opeth albums ever). He's heralded more than he should be, for sure. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | For me, Fear of Blank Planet is the worst thing he's ever done. |
zakalwe
03.08.16 | I love Raven, it's the best thing he has done. |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | @Jamie - We will disagree hard on that one then. |
adr
03.08.16 | Sinternet you've heard 3 prog albums jesus shut up.
But yeah modern prog suck for the most part. People really like to hate The Mars Volta and i don't even like them that much, but their first two albums are prob the most original modern prog albums in terms of sound. |
smaugman
03.08.16 | steven wilson got really many haters on this site |
KILL
03.08.16 | leaves turn inside you was the last album ever made as far as i'm concerned |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "We will disagree hard on that one then"
Yep I think so, I included it on this list because it's one of the worst modern "prog" albums I've ever heard. |
smaugman
03.08.16 | and yeah, sinternet is just a shithead who hates metal and prog, the best genres |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | "I love Raven, it's the best thing he has done."
There's just nothing original about it to me. It's classic prog worship. I see it the same as the last 2 Opeth albums - you could do something with your unique brand on it and you just chose not to... Meh... |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | the fact i dislike the majority of prog does not mean i've only heard 3 albums |
smaugman
03.08.16 | you are just robert christgau basically |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | yeah i don't hate metal |
adr
03.08.16 | i haven't heard Porcupine Tree (and i don't really want to), but yea i have to agree last 2 Steven Wilson were unexciting and quite boring. Not really awful tho. |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | I do not enjoy The Mars Volta. I guess I can appreciate what they do, but it ain't for me.
@Jamie - Curious, why? Album is a hard jam for me and does a great job working with that theme of technology absorbing personality. I can dig it if the tunes just don't do it for you or whatever, but I'm just curious. |
smaugman
03.08.16 | "prog is an even more inferior genre than metal" |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | I do actually enjoy some Porcupine Tree but I can't stand his solo stuff. Deadwing is a pretty decent album imo |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | metal and prog fans sure are easy to wind up |
smaugman
03.08.16 | i dont understand what's wrong with his solo stuff? people say it's forgettable and that bs, but it's definitly not |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | it's so fucking boring |
Cimnele
03.08.16 | you will rue the day you impugned the Heavenly Genres |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | I've found it to be pretty forgettable, personally, but that's just me. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "@Jamie - Curious, why? Album is a hard jam for me and does a great job working with that theme of technology absorbing personality. I can dig it if the tunes just don't do it for you or whatever, but I'm just curious."
I think the song writing is awful, especially the lyrics which are some of the most cringeworthy I've ever heard and not helped at all by Wilson's emotionless vocal delivery, I find the musicianship entirely uninteresting and the whole sound of the album typifies the alt-prog style I despise so much. |
KILL
03.08.16 | ya luminol is rly boring huh
you sure you didnt just jam grace for drowning |
smaugman
03.08.16 | HCE is an exceptional record |
KILL
03.08.16 | agreed with jamie cept anesthetize which is a beast |
Piglet
03.08.16 | could not agree more about fear of a bitch planet, and to think i had that album 5'd as a little wank bitch 12 year old. |
SharkTooth
03.08.16 | Only Steven Wilson related thing I ever heard was that trains song
I thought it was pretty good |
KILL
03.08.16 | also mongi is gonna shit when he sees this |
Valkyrion
03.08.16 | prog rock has always felt like rock's attempt at emulating classical music and jazz to me so once I transitioned to those I lost all interest in it as a genre besides the occasional jam, but my experience with new prog has been mostly pointless grandiosity and wank with some rare decent tunes |
ArsMoriendi
03.08.16 | The world needs another Zappa tbh |
smaugman
03.08.16 | the world needs more 70-77 prog agreed |
Sinternet
03.08.16 | agreed, Zappa is legend |
porcupinetheater
03.08.16 | RJG needs to listen to more modern prog, don't understand all the shit its taking, to be honest. Pain of Salvation (although they've dropped a bit of the prog lately), Kayo Dot, Riverside - don't even have to dig that deep |
ArsMoriendi
03.08.16 | "the world needs more 70-77 prog agreed"
67-81* |
adr
03.08.16 | "The world needs another Zappa tbh"
he exsits tho he made decent alt metal with System of a Down lol |
ArsMoriendi
03.08.16 | Serj is the modern Zappa? lolno
MAYBE Les Claypool is though. |
smaugman
03.08.16 | serj isn't a very good songwriter tbh |
Jots
03.08.16 | featured “ψ(｀∇´)ψ |
KILL
03.08.16 | wow you two are stupid |
KILL
03.08.16 | oops sorry johnny you are a very smart and dashing young man |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | Valid criticisms, though let me ask two things:
1. What's Godfrey doing about it? Let's not act like all his stuff as of late has been as class as Summer Stars. Whether you rip off Pink Floyd or you rip off classical, it's not any more original.
2. Do we hold other genres to this same incredibly challenging standard? If you like old prog it's because it WAS exceptional. To assume new artists can just whip out new prog masterpieces is negating that the old prog movemont truly was awe-inspiring and classic. The same cycle of innovation to imitation/saturation phase occurs across all genres. |
Jots
03.08.16 | not canceling my huffy request for imminent ban |
SCREAM!
03.08.16 | "the world needs more 70-77 prog agreed"
There's a whole wealth of that available already if you'd bother to look a little |
smaugman
03.08.16 | im just saying prog in teh 70s was better lol gtfo |
Rik VII
03.08.16 | "(producing the most boring Opeth albums ever)"
Oh and also the best, wtf.
The Raven is also my favorite of his works. |
SCREAM!
03.08.16 | "im just saying prog in teh 70s was better lol gtfo"
not whatchu said tho |
Cimnele
03.08.16 | yeah if you really delve into 70-77 era prog it was already rife with copyists and hacks. it's not like every undiscovered short pressing prog LP was equal to Gentle Giant |
smaugman
03.08.16 | "needs more 70-77 prog" doesnt mean i have not looked for more. im only trying to say it's better |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | "Whether you rip off Pink Floyd or you rip off classical, it's not any more original."
dude pink floyd doesn't even sound like a lot of prog. |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | "To assume new artists can just whip out new prog masterpieces is negating that the old prog movemont truly was awe-inspiring and classic."
not necessarily.
"The same cycle of innovation to imitation/saturation phase occurs across all genres."
other genres are doing new and exciting things tho. |
SCREAM!
03.08.16 | "doesnt mean i have not looked for more. im only trying to say it's better"
Then say it's better duhr
There really isn't any need for more |
wham49
03.08.16 | the world will never get another Zappa good thing there is 50 + albums to jam to
and honestly calling Zappa Prog, does injustice to Zappa and Prog |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | The thing is, prog by definition is supposed to be progressive and honestly "prog" at the moment is one of the least progressive genres around which is what's so ridiculous about the current prog scene. |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | agreed again [7+x} |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | Also bands like Kayo Dot (who I've seen mentioned a couple of times itt) aren't even considered prog by most, it's almost like they're too experimental to fit into the prog scene of the moment without sticking out as an anomaly. |
smaugman
03.08.16 | why is everyone obsessed with placing a band within the prog catagory or not? |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | @Jamie Kayo Dot is on prog archives. The prog definition debate is kinda old, but again, what other genre has to stick to its initial meaning? Is all classical "classic"?
@Cyg name these genres. You'll find it's easy to criticize but not so easy to give a solution. |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | ""(producing the most boring Opeth albums ever)"
Oh and also the best, wtf."
You're right, I forgot he did Blackwater, that's my bad. Relistening to "Luminol" and it's also pretty great. Also forgot I had a pretty steady enjoyment of Hand.Cannot.Erase.
I guess Steven Wilson is more alright than I initially posited. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "why is everyone obsessed with placing a band within the prog catagory or not?"
I'm not sure they are(?) Whether Kayo Dot are prog or not wasn't really my point. |
Shemson
03.08.16 | I don't really think new prog can exist anymore. The style of music that was pioneered late 60s through 70s is exhausted. After a decade of genius musicians innovating around a particular sound where else can you push the genre? And if you're not pushing or 'progressing' the sound then you're just a copycat which is really not prog...
There is some good progressive metal still around because there is still room to experiment but how can you experiment with true prog anymore after nearly 60 years? |
wham49
03.08.16 | Jamie, by def. yes prog should be progressive, not nesesarily long complicated comps, but it has turned into that, by standard def. zapp, the dead, those types would be "prog", but are not
also, Geddy once remarked when people were getting on them during the early 80's about getting away from prog. " we can't do the same thing forever, moving forward with a different sound is what prog is, so isn't that what we are doing" I butchered the quote but it said essentially the same thing |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "@Jamie Kayo Dot is on prog archives."
Yeah but if you look elsewhere, prog is rarely considered their primary genre or even secondary genre. |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | "prog rock has always felt like rock's attempt at emulating classical music and jazz to me so once I transitioned to those I lost all interest in it as a genre besides the occasional jam, but my experience with new prog has been mostly pointless grandiosity and wank with some rare decent tunes"
@Valkyrion sorry man, this is the kind of critiques of prog that irritate me. In what world do you live in where classical and jazz are booming, constantly innovative genres? They have stagnated for far longer than prog. I can understand if you're just saying the back catalog is better, but that's not what this conversation is about. Yeah, classical is never pompous and jazz never wanks. Migosh. You'd think the fusion of the two would help mitigate both genre's shortcomings, wouldn't you? |
zakalwe
03.08.16 | Whatever the argument you can't take away the fact that 'bog' is a classic derisory term. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "I don't really think new prog can exist anymore. The style of music that was pioneered late 60s through 70s is exhausted."
Same here, I see real prog as more of a movement of that period rather than a genre. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "Jamie, by def. yes prog should be progressive, not nesesarily long complicated comps, but it has turned into that, by standard def. zapp, the dead, those types would be "prog", but are not"
and that is everything that is wrong with prog for me. |
Shemson
03.08.16 | Damn Jamie, I spent too long wording my comment and basically posted the same as you seven comments up haha |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | well we got r&b, house, techno, hip hop. then we have things like field recordings, trap, ballroom, chopped & screwed, musique concrete and so forth - that stuff is still changing and can still be exciting. |
ArsMoriendi
03.08.16 | There was this interview where Zappa criticized bands like Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Yes and some other bands for not actually being progressive. I think he said said King Crimson was progressive "sometimes" haha I wish I could find it, it was an amazing interview. |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | "In what world do you live in where classical and jazz are booming, constantly innovative genres?"
oh man
"They have stagnated for far longer than prog."
they also have a far richer and more substantive collective history than prog. like borderline infinitely richer. |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | @Cygnatti Sorry, man, everytime I try those genres I get burned by how boring and un-innovative they are. Field recordings? Musique concrete? Like really. What haven't they already done with that since the 60s? It's easy to go into a room full of progheads and shout the praises of genres not everyone is as familiar with, but as soon as you dig deep into those genres you realize it's the same story. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "There was this interview where Zappa criticized bands like Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Yes and some other bands for not actually being progressive. I think he said said King Crimson was progressive "sometimes" haha I wish I could find it, it was an amazing interview"
I doubt he said that about Tull as they were progressive in the truest sense of the word. They rarely sounded like prog in style but they were definitely progressive.
I'd actually agree with him about bands like Yes to some extent though. |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | @Cyg I mentioned that the collective history is beside the point. I didn't deny it. |
SharkTooth
03.08.16 | Ninja'd by Friday |
SitarHero
03.08.16 | Clearly someone has not been listening to Thank You Scientist. |
SCREAM!
03.08.16 | "The thing is, prog by definition is supposed to be progressive"
I see where you're coming from but I disagree. The fact that it's a genre means there are certain characteristics that have to be present for things to fit into that genre. Otherwise, you could've just slapped the prog label onto post-rock when it started since it was making rock progress in new directions.
It got labeled progressive at first because that's what it was doing but once it got a foothold and it's own sound, then it became a genre tag and bands that were progressing differently then got their own genre tag to distinguish them. Basically, naming any genre prog-whatever is doomed to become an oxymoron at some point. |
MarsKid
03.08.16 | I'm just gonna go enjoy music. |
ArsMoriendi
03.08.16 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eln3J6BxWN0 FOUND IT! It's 6 minutes in. |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | ^good interview yeah I've seen it |
Shemson
03.08.16 | You'd be silly not to Kid. I like plenty of stuff that's not 'cool'. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "It got labeled progressive at first because that's what it was doing but once it got a foothold and it's own sound, then it became a genre tag and bands that were progressing differently then got their own genre tag to distinguish them. Basically, naming any genre prog-whatever is doomed to become an oxymoron at some point."
I'm not denying that's what happened but originally it WAS progressive and the fact that that's not the case anymore is what's being discussed here. |
SCREAM!
03.08.16 | I'm not saying it's impossible to make it progress but after having existed for decades and having already been taken in so many different directions, well what more can you do without finding yourself in a separate genre. |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | pop and r&b:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY9ejw1728w
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz0wjb_jai-paul-track-2-str8-outta-mumbai_travel
dude, plenty of genres are still changing and branching out, it may not be changes that we like, but it is still "progress" nonetheless. |
ArsMoriendi
03.08.16 | The rest of this Zappa interview is so cynical, but It speaks so much truth, shit. |
AtomicWaste
03.08.16 | SCREAM! makes a good point. I think the constraints and cannonizing (for lack of a better term) of "classic" prog has sort of cut off innovation. Codifying "prog" as a genre has also put it in a box while the true spirit of prog really defies that notion. There's plenty out there that uses prog sensibility, but it doesn't usually fit the genre constraints.
There are still some genre-conforming prog records that come out and push a little bit here and there and there are definitely some genre-conforming prog records in recent history that are quite good. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | "Codifying "prog" as a genre has also put it in a box while the true spirit of prog really defies that notion."
Yeah this is pretty much my point. Prog was a movement but it became a genre and that's why it is where it is. |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | "pop and r&b:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY9ejw1728w
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz0wjb_jai-paul-track-2-str8-outta-mumbai_travel
dude, plenty of genres are still changing and branching out, it may not be changes that we like, but it is still "progress" nonetheless."
lol you're telling me, Cyg. I can just see myself playing that SOPHIE track to my mom and being like, "You like pop and r&b, right?" haha |
BeyondCosby
03.08.16 | So what would modern prog be called if it doesn't necessarily "progress" the genre? Should Steven Wilson be called "Throw Back Rock"? Is metal that utilizes other genres no longer "prog metal" and now something like... different metal? I guess, what dictates something as "Prog"? Who decides when a band has contributed enough to a sound, or branched out from a sound enough to the point where it earns this genre tag? It seems a little bit like semantics to me but I don't know an answer other than, if a band doesn't quite fit in with another genre it's "progressive". |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | "lol you're telling me, Cyg. I can just see myself playing that SOPHIE track to my mom and being like, "You like pop and r&b, right?" haha"
completely and ridiculously irrelevant. just because it doesn't sound like most pop, doesn't mean that it isn't. c'mon dude. that's like going up to an old prog fan and be like "u like prog right? well here's the new rishloo album, that you'll just love!"
just because someone "likes prog" doesn't mean they'll like all forms of it. whether or not something is palatable, accessible, or even sound remotely similar when compared to something else, doesn't mean either don't belong in the same genre(s). |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | I know Cyg, but you gotta admit the apple has fallen pretty far from the tree if that's pop. What was the hook, the screeching noise? I'd say that's an experimental electronic track. The other track was pop/r&b but didn't really stand out to me. |
Mystletainn
03.08.16 | Jokes on Robert Godfrey because progs always been like that lol. |
JamieTwort
03.08.16 | Well, regardless of opinion, it hasn't always been "a poor parody of things gone past" or "a cynical attempt to try and feed the prog community with the sort of stuff they are used to." |
Cygnatti
03.08.16 | oh yes, it certainly has. (it can be both experimental electronic and experimental pop,i think anyways). the hook is the repetition of l-o-v-e.
the second song is pretty different in it's production choices. the use of glitchy tendencies, use of unconventional instrumental choices, and tons of sampling. etc. it's also one of the earlier examples of a newish subgenre - alt r&b. |
Valkyrion
03.08.16 | @friday13
Not sure what you're trying to prove here as I was merely sharing my experience with the genre rather than dispatching absolute truths, but your write-up is leaving me quite perplexed. Certainly I wouldn't know about all about modern prog (or even worse, prog metal), a genre I dislike for which I've heard 10 artists at most. I ~could~ elaborate a bit on why I don't like it though. |
Friday13th
03.08.16 | @Valkyrion Okay that's fine. I was filtering your comment through the lens of discussion topic, so maybe I over-analyzed what you were trying to say. I'm trying to get people to measure prog using the same criteria as other genres. If prog is lame only because the new stuff is unoriginal than that applies to other genres too. Right? If too much soloing is wank then jazz has its fair share, right? That's all I'm trying to point out. |
Tunaboy45
03.08.16 | "but who offer absolutely no content that is memorable or meaningful"
exaggeration to the extreme right there |
smaugman
03.08.16 | he got alzheimers, he just prob forgot that it's good or whatever lol |
Titan
03.08.16 | can't say that i disagree with his quote |
SCREAM!
03.08.16 | In what world in that SOPHIE track considered pop?? Definitely not the one I live in |
SharkTooth
03.09.16 | It's pretty much SachikoM-core if it really is pop |
BearzUnlimited
03.09.16 | I generally see a distinction between "progressive" music and "prog" music, even though prog is obviously supposed to be an abbreviation of progressive. I would call "progressive" a broad label to describe any music that's more innovative, and pushes the boundaries of existing genres. In that sense, the prog bands of the late 60s-70s were definitely progressive, as well as various other new artists that aren't necessarily in the prog genre in the same way as those bands are.
Prog to me, on the other hand, has come to describe music in a similar style to those early progressive rock bands - often long, technical, and complex songs. It's not necessarily "progressive," but I don't think that's a reason to call all of it "bad music." A lot of modern prog is still brilliant even if it is in a similar style to the older bands. I feel like we only judge it so harshly in this way because we think it HAS to be "progressive" music and do something totally new. There's also a lot of modern prog that is shit, because they forget the part where the older bands made well=written songs, and instead just focus completely on the "long and technical" parts.
IMO Steven Wilson is a great artist - his work isn't just about technical talent. Granted, I haven't gotten around to listening to his solo stuff yet and have only really listened to Porcupine Tree, but there's clear attention paid to hooks, atmosphere, lyrics (for the most part, some lines from FoAP for example are really ugh), etc., and I've never noticed a focus on overly complex musical passages or "look at these crazy fast solos dude!!! yeah prog as fuck!!!!". His work definitely is inspired by and sounds a lot like many of the iconic prog bands, and because of that it's not really "progressive," but I think it's still great music regardless.
SW actually talked about "progressive music" in the first half of this interview from a while ago, which probably inspired a lot of this bullshit I just typed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tezwUT-ZnJQ |
Frippertronics
03.09.16 | he does have a point tho he definitely sounds like a disgruntled dadrocker |
Rik VII
03.09.16 | thanks for the link Bearz, that's a great interview. |
MistaCrave
03.09.16 | chum is fum |
Torontonian
03.09.16 | a lil hypocritical considering his band is shite tho.
|
KILL
03.09.16 | boom |
Cygnatti
03.09.16 | ^was waiting for someone to say that tbh |
Frippertronics
03.09.16 | "a lil hypocritical considering his band is shite tho."
except that's wrong buddy |
ArsMoriendi
03.09.16 | Rain Down was a pretty great song. |
MarsKid
03.10.16 | They better hope their new album doesn't turn out to be the same sort of crap they're describing or they'll eat their words. Kinda hope they will tbh. |
Frippertronics
03.10.16 | the new album is decent, I really don't care for Joe Payne as their vocalist in some aspects honestly. |
MarsKid
03.10.16 | Haven't heard an Enid album, but I know Payne from Methexis and I like his work on Suiciety. |
TheCrocodile
03.10.16 | lol toronto with the truth |
Frippertronics
03.10.16 | edit : heh |
MeatSalad
03.10.16 | I actually can dig a lot of stuff that somewhat rips off old prog bands because it's a tried and true sound that sounds awesome when done well.
But a lot of this modern shit that's basically a twelve minute alt-rock song with heavy nu-metal garbage blended in is fucking awful. |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | ^ I'm with this equally disgruntled old geezer :) |
Frippertronics
03.10.16 | tbh less King Crimson/Rush tribute albums disguised as new albums would be cool |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | All the big names have a lot of copycats. I've actually heard few Rush knock-offs, but I'm sure there are plenty. |
Frippertronics
03.10.16 | need more Enid/Harmonium copycats rly |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | I think I have the softest spot for Gentle Giant knock-offs. That counterpoint stuff is so obvious, but I can't resist. Wouldn't mind more Comus knock-offs either. |
YetAnotherBrick
03.10.16 | i think nowadays it's a little more common to start with another genre and then 'progress' out of that, i.e. prog metal and shit, rather than just progressive rock. i think a lot of musicians today are actually pretty lost on how to do just 'prog rock,' which is a shame because i think it could be done pretty easily. and i think it's cool that Mr. Godfrey went after Steven Wilson in particular, because while Steven Wilson definitely has a vision, he is kind of bastardizing the style. he can throw a lot of instruments together and give everything obscure interesting titles but that doesn't mean he can create a real, tangible texture. we do need more bands that can emulate old prog bands without imitating them. people forget that it can sound like anything you want, that's the whole idea. Thick as A Brick and Close to the Edge don't sound anything alike, but they're part of the same style. More bands should try to think like those guys without just ripping them off. same old story i guess tho |
SIIMBOLIC
03.10.16 | djent is new prog and better tbh |
MeatSalad
03.10.16 | fahnny mahn |
SIIMBOLIC
03.10.16 | You cant try to think like those guys and hope to be anywhere near as good. Those guys were great cause they had their own thing going and used their own inspiration. Bands without imagination and artistic inspiration are the issue |
AnimalsAsSummit
03.10.16 | kayo dot, maudlin of the well; two exceptional modern prog acts (granted, spearheaded by the same dude)
but i really cant think of any others that compare to the stuff out of the late 60s, 70s, so this statement has a lot of truth |
SitarHero
03.10.16 | But your name is AnimalsAsSummit... |
adr
03.10.16 | Lol |
altertide0
03.10.16 | Kayo dot are certainly not a prog act |
Snowdog808
03.10.16 | Seven Impale and Agusa made awesome albums lately though, and those are just two examples outside of progressive metal. |
BenThatsMyJamin
03.10.16 | I agree if he's talking about prog metal, all this djent shite. Steven Wilson rules though, but it's a given that there are a lot of people trying to do a similar thing and failing |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | It's just as applicable to prog rock, if not more so, and I think it's more prog rock that he's referring to. |
Asdfp277
03.10.16 | stupid opinion |
SharkTooth
03.10.16 | modern prog has generally been pretty tame imo. 70s prog had so much more variety while most of the modern prog I've heard has just been drawn-out alt rock/metal songs, |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | "stupid opinion"
Godfrey's? |
Asdfp277
03.10.16 | ya, haven't read the thread. y'all prolly have a decent opinion, but this guy is either delusional about calling it "meaningless" as if old prog was full of meaning or something, or he expressed himself pretty poorly |
altertide0
03.10.16 | Seriously Jamie, *you* care about prog not being innovative anymore? Last time i heard you were all about production and songwriting and now you're backing a guy crying about lack of new ideas. I mean, good, but what a surprise |
altertide0
03.10.16 | Or did you just post it because in between he hates on sw (well, kind of) and that's enough for you |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | Obviously I think quality of composition/songwriting is more important than innovation for the sake of innovation, I think that's the viewpoint of mine that you're referring to but progressive rock is about progressing and the fact that it's one of the least progressive genres of music around is what gets me. If the music within the current prog scene was of a similar standard to the best of what classic prog had to offer rather than predominantly being a cheap rehash I'd have far less of a problem with it. |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | Also (this is in response to Asdfp as well) Godfrey's comments are full of hyperbole and neglect the fact that there was a lot of 70's prog that had the same flaws, so I don't back him 100% by any means but I think his analysis of the current prog scene is still pretty on point (although nothing that hasn't already been said many times by its detractors). |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | Also (@altertide), your views on what it means to progress are completely different from mine. I've seen you criticise Foxtot for its lack of progression compared to Nursery Cryme whereas for me Foxtrot shows what progression is/was all about (in prog), building on an innovative sound and making it better. Genesis (simply using them as an example) layed their own groundwork to build on and progressed with it, you don't get that with the modern prog scene. |
altertide0
03.10.16 | SW has undeniably created his own sound as well though Jamie, and what he's doing now is exactly "making it better" (as you understand the term) |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | Much of Wilson's prog sound is built on that of others before him and I can't see much improvement in his material over the years. |
Mongi123
03.10.16 | Well that's his opinion. Disagreed wholeheartedly. |
smaugman
03.10.16 | you say "progressive" as it supposed to progress all the time. i dont think it's supposed to literally mean it |
altertide0
03.10.16 | At least in absentia and stupid dream (which bridged prog with alternative music) are at least as far away from previous prog as genesis were from kc's debut. I find it very hard to argue, there was nothing like them before.
And hand cannot erase together with the ep take that template but add more sophisticated instrumentation - "making it better" |
Mongi123
03.10.16 | Like just because things in your genre changed a little bit doesn't been it's meaningless and nonsense lol |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | "you say "progressive" as it supposed to progress all the time. i dont think it's supposed to literally mean"
I don't think it needs to progress "all the time", no. |
Mongi123
03.10.16 | Also, the only example he gives is SW/PT. How about some more examples please? There are many different kinds of prog, like don't say it so generally dude. Bands like Yes and The Beach Boys and The Enid were way back then and things have changed whether you like it or not. |
smaugman
03.10.16 | a genre can still be interesting without changing, as long as there's good music being created, and SW continues to deliver interesting stuff |
Mongi123
03.10.16 | Like if you don't like modern prog, fine! But to not like it because it doesn't sound like your old music, which that sounds like that's what he's getting at, give more examples to back up your claims. Don't talk generally and be pretentious about it. |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | "At least in absentia and stupid dream (which bridged prog with alternative music) are at least as far away from previous prog as genesis were from kc's debut. I find it very hard to argue, there was nothing like them before."
For the record I was referring more to his solo stuff with my previous response. The first part of what I said is less applicable to his PT material. The fact that that particular sound is probably my least favourite style of music ever makes me a bit biased here so I'll leave it there. |
altertide0
03.10.16 | Mongi are we reading the same quote?? What he' getting at is precisely the opposite of what you think he's getting at lol |
Mongi123
03.10.16 | "It is either a poor parody of things gone past or is a cynical attempt to try and feed the prog community with the sort of stuff they are used to."
Yes, actually we are. Long story short, doesn't sound like older stuff, therefore it sucks. |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | lol Mongi, he's criticising it by saying that it DOES sound like the old stuff, so much so that it's like a parody of the past. |
altertide0
03.10.16 | Lol mongi [2] |
Mongi123
03.10.16 | It just comes off like that to me. Like, if you think this, again fine. But I'd appreciate some more in depth examples than just talking generally. |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | It's probably true many like Godfrey criticize sound-alikes while also ignoring the innovative bands. Take Kayo Dot. Choirs is too slow-building and noisy for my taste, and it's tempting to ignore their uniqueness just based on taste. Like Jamie talked about the importance of songwriting, I think some of the latest innovations forgo interesting songwriting in favor of...I'm gonna open a big can of worms here...the "g" and the "n" words:
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/gimmick
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/novelty |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | Basically, all the obviously good ideas have been taken, so often we're scraping the bottom of the barrel to get something innovative. |
altertide0
03.10.16 | Kayo dot are not prog though. And see, that's the whole point: you can't eat the cookie and have the cookie. Modern proggers would like bands to be both innovative and "progressive". This is nigh impossible to pull off: you're either too avant-garde to be prog, or too prog to be avant-garde. Stop having impossible expectations |
Flugmorph
03.10.16 | have to agree with mr. godfrey there. theres little to no adventuring in the modern prog scene.
to me haken always comes to mind when thinking about bands that try something a little different than others but im prob alone with that sentiment.
kayo dot is on the edge man! |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | I agree totally, altertide0. What I said applies to all genres. |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | Haken isn't innovative but they have a great combination of classic sounds and good songwriting. |
SCREAM!
03.10.16 | @alter sort of what I was getting at earlier. At one point you reach a limit where you've "progressed" so far from your roots you're essentially in a new genre and not playing prog anymore |
AnimalsAsSummit
03.10.16 | @sitarhero the name is poking fun at the bands bro |
AnimalsAsSummit
03.10.16 | Prog and avant coalesce constantly; redundant argument imho. I think KD definitely progresses music forward, has many proggy moments, therefore is prog. Listen to coyote, hubardo, coffins. Albums are filled with straight prog material. |
Friday13th
03.10.16 | Coffins yeah also kinda post-punkish. The point is genres are always to some extent closed within certain boundaries, whereas bands are not. |
altertide0
03.10.16 | @SCREAM true, you must forgive me though, since reading 180 comments would be a huge pain in the ass.
@Animals I don't deny kayo dot having a prog element in them, but calling them a prog band seems like a huge misrepresentation to me. You might as well call them a death metal band, or chamber music band, or post-rock or electronic band etc. |
Rik VII
03.10.16 | Saying that music has to be "progressive" to be prog is like saying that music has to be "popular" to be pop. The genre terms have grown independent from what they originally meant. |
SharkTooth
03.10.16 | but at the same time the genre sounding completely one-note like it does now still is a huge sign of the genre's serious problems |
TheCrocodile
03.10.16 | really good thread tbh |
JamieTwort
03.10.16 | Better thread than I expected tbh.
On another note, just accidently deleted my 2015 list :[ |
SharkTooth
03.10.16 | RIP |
Rik VII
03.11.16 | The genre doesn't sound more "one-note" than most other music genres. I guess it's inevitable for a genre to stagnate at some point, and there's far worse than prog rock regarding that. |
Asdfp277
03.11.16 | mindless 'experimentation' is not inherently good, and bringing outside influences is not necessary to make good music. not having out-there influences is not the same as being meaningless |
SIIMBOLIC
03.11.16 | yeah people who just think trying different stuff is automatically a positive is silly |
Illoomorpheme
03.11.16 | Steven Wilson bores the fuck out of me. |
Sinternet
02.03.17 | anyone remember when prog was officially confirmed gay? |
theBoneyKing
02.03.17 | 1969 |
AnimalsAsSummit
02.03.17 | agreed 1000% with this. modern prog mostly is boring and rehashed asf
oh shit i forgot i commented on here lol |
MarsKid
02.03.17 | modern ______ is boring and rehashed asf |
altertide0
02.03.17 | "modern ______ is boring and rehashed asf" is boring and rehashed asf |
SandwichBubble
02.03.17 | Glad we can all come in agreement |
Frippertronics
02.03.17 | my dude RJG knew what's up |
wham49
02.04.17 | isnt your reasoning the same for all music in the last 15 years |
JamieTwort
02.04.17 | Who? |
wham49
02.05.17 | you |
Titan
02.05.17 | uh oh |
Maco097
02.05.17 | The Igorr collab is the only enjoyable thing here in the list.
Also what the guy said is 100% true. |
papudo
02.05.17 | modern prog stuff is a frustrated attempt to emulate the whole atmosphere from 70's bands with a some 'new elements'. this 'new bands', like new opeth, sounds thefore predictable and boring.
the greatest movements in history only happens one time. that's why they are great. modern prog doesn't understand that. |
KILL
02.05.17 | mongi was pissed |
MarsKid
02.05.17 | tbh this is a very negative outlook
and if it is to be followed then his own band has gone down that path lol |
Frippertronics
02.05.17 | "tbh this is a very negative outlook
and if it is to be followed then his own band has gone down that path lol"
he isn't wrong, but he noticed that he was being hypocritical due to his own band practically becoming the very thing he went out of his way to avoid. There's a reason why their singer left not long afterward due to creative differences/personal reasons. The new lineup is going in a different direction IIRC |
MarsKid
02.05.17 | eh, to me he's being just a stereotypical curmudgeon, but to each their own |
Frippertronics
02.05.17 | him being critical of the very community he's been associated with for over forty years isn't even recent, so it's honestly surprising this was even news when the article initially came out - and it probably wouldn't have mattered much had it not been for the fact he singled out Steven Wilson |
MarsKid
02.05.17 | Most people here seem to hate on SW so that's just a standard day for me |
JamieTwort
02.05.17 | "you"
Please elaborate. I think you have me confused with someone else. |
Mythodea
02.05.17 | People forget that ''prog music'' in the 70's was revolutionary because it opposed to certain forms of listening to music. The small vinyl discs that required smaller songs bothered many musicians, who reacted and made complex and long songs. That is just one example of why it was both progressive and revolutionary.
For today's artists to do sth new again, there's a need to create music that defies the modern approach to music, in terms of form, genre, listening and production. Inspiration for something new when socially nothing changes is impossible. It's like wanting to reignite the fire between you and your partner but doing nothing to change the situations you are used to. |
wham49
02.05.17 | "Now prog is just bog. Most of it is now meaningless, shallow nonsense. It is either a poor parody of things gone past or is a cynical attempt to try and feed the prog community with the sort of stuff they are used to. Now we have nothing challenging, no new ideas and nothing behind it."
"but who offer absolutely no content that is memorable or meaningful".
didnt you say this or at least endorse it, if so I am saying isnt these comments, typical of all new music made in the last 15 years |
JamieTwort
02.05.17 | Oh you mean that YOU think those comments apply to all music in the last 15 years and you're asking if I agree? No I definitely don't agree with that. Maybe it applies to most rock music in the last 15 years but certainly not modern music in general. |
wham49
02.05.17 | what do you mean by modern music |
smaugman
02.05.17 | I think it's a lot harder making good innovative music nowadays than it was 20-30 years ago |
JamieTwort
02.05.17 | "what do you mean by modern music"
Music in the last 15 years I guess. |
theBoneyKing
02.05.17 | This whole argument rests on the assumption that music has to be innovative or original to be good which is just not true. |
theBoneyKing
02.05.17 | Plus it's hard to blame modern music for showing its influences more than older music because modern music (2000s on let's say) has much more music to draw on than music in the 60s-80s.
Nothing is totally original, you can't divorce influences from product even if the influence is reactionary i.e making something intentionally different from something else. |
MarsKid
02.05.17 | If you only want to listen to the most groundbreaking stuff then you'll like maybe two albums a year and hate the rest |
Mythodea
02.05.17 | Apart from Madonna, nothing ever has given birth without a seed. The thing is that modern music vocabulary is very well explored. Any language has to experience something new to craft new words, otherwise it's just new words that refer to the same thing.
Anyhow, music doesn't need to be constantly moving to be enjoyable. |
JamieTwort
02.05.17 | I absolutely agree Boney, it's just that progressive rock in the late 60's/70's was a movement that was all about rock bands pushing boundaries and being innovative whereas modern prog is now one of the least innovative and forward thinking genres out there at the moment. I wouldn't apply this same critique to other genres of music. |
Mythodea
02.05.17 | Dream Theater is one of the best and one of the worst things that happened to Prog Metal.
I believe, however, there's still quality prog out there, it's just not so autonomous from what preceded it. |
theBoneyKing
02.05.17 | Ah I see Jamie, not a prog fan so I'm not gonna argue with that. But at the very least I would think a fan of old prog could still find the music enjoyable. I mean most people here weren't around at the height of original prog so for all intents and purposes they probably discovered the new and old stuff at the same time so I wouldn't think the originality bias would have that much of an impact. |
altertide0
02.05.17 | have you heard of gospel, mars volta, tool Jamie? |
wham49
02.05.17 | ok jamie, that would almost all be some sort of rock, unless your talking hip hop, but any music like indie, or any kind of metal, fall under the "rock" umbrella, not to be argumenative, but all music, new or modern as you want to call it, is basically boring, and riding the coat tails of most music from 20 years ago to 50 years ago |
SitarHero
02.05.17 | So, why would you say bands like Dillinger Escape Plan, SikTh, Between the Buried and Me, Protest the Hero etc haven't been pushing boundaries and innovating? Just because there are millions of imitators doesn't mean there aren't innovators. |
Mythodea
02.05.17 | Sikth and BTBAM are good, the others I can't stand. But why are excluding alt prog metal from the discussion? |
Mythodea
02.05.17 | Leprous and Rishloo are great examples of modern prog metal, even if they are on the alt side. |
SitarHero
02.05.17 | Not being able to stand a prog band is probably a good thing, because subjectively they may be doing something you don't like, and Prog should be annoying/pissing off at least a few people with its choices. I like Rishloo too, but the first album definitely wears its Tool influence on its sleeve. JOLLY is another band that has IMO a unique sound. |
Mythodea
02.05.17 | Never heard of them, but if you say so, I could try them. Agree on the Rishloo part, but their debut was always my least favourite, so I don't care.
Innovations doesn't always go hand in hand with disturbancy. When I heard first of ''The Dreaming'' I was in a ''what the fuck?'' mood, but it didn't bother me. I believe pushing the boundaries is one thing, sacrificing essence for innovation is another. |
SitarHero
02.05.17 | But what is this essence you speak of? It's a bit of a double edged sword because I'm sure the classic prog bands heard criticism along the same lines during their time, but now we can look back on them fondly and see the scope of both their innovation and essence.
I wasn't initially a big fan of PTH or SikTh initially, but the first time I heard Destrage I absolutely loved them, which gave me a newfound appreciation for the influence that the other bands had on them and allowed me to revisit their music and enjoy it more. |
Mythodea
02.05.17 | Well, I'm not saying that each band I don't like sacrifices the one for the sake of the other. But, I find there are some bands that don't aim exactly somewhere. I'll take it to the extreme, just so you get my point: Lou Reed's Machine Music was revolutionary and rebelious but wasn't good music. |
JamieTwort
02.05.17 | "ok jamie, that would almost all be some sort of rock, unless your talking hip hop, but any music like indie, or any kind of metal, fall under the "rock" umbrella"
All music that isn't hip-hop is rock? lmao
"not to be argumenative, but all music, new or modern as you want to call it, is basically boring, and riding the coat tails of most music from 20 years ago to 50 years ago"
No it isn't. Maybe just the kind of music you're looking for/listening to is. |
JamieTwort
02.05.17 | @Sitar: I think this is referring to prog as in the prog rock seen rather than prog metal. At least that's what I'm referring to when I say that I agree with this.
This also applies to altertide's comment, with the exception of The Mars Volta perhaps (who I can't stand incidentally, not that that's at all relevant to the discussion). |
Koris
02.05.17 | We need more bands like Phideaux and Beardfish leading the charge these days, bands who are firmly rooted in old prog traditions but with enough innovation and flair to stand on their own as great standalone acts. I can agree that the alt-prog stuff gets old, and I absolutely fucking despise that 70s throwback Flower Kings/Glass Hammer-esque crap. To me, post-rock and jazz fusion are where it's at for current progressive music now. |
altertide0
02.05.17 | @Jamie Gospel have nothing to do with metal, Tool are also at least 50% rock. And yeah the fact that you can't stand Mars Volta is relevant to the discussion, at least as stated in the list. You like to complain there's nothing new in prog but when there is something new you dislike it. |
JamieTwort
02.05.17 | "Gospel have nothing to do with metal"
Yes but they're far from being strictly prog rock either.
I still have more respect for The Mars Volta than the majority of prog rock bands that sound like a cheap knock off of their influences. That's why it's irrelevant that I personally dislike their sound. |
Azertherion
04.21.17 | Reading all of this is extremely painful. What a stupid rant.
Claiming that prog is souless and pretentious while listening to indie pop/rock feels like the pot calling the black kettle. And if you do genuinely believe that Steven Wilson is unoriginal and cynical, you probably did not listen to Insurgentes/Grace For Drowning/HCE.
Are most new prog albums unoriginal and bad ? Yes. Not because they're prog albums, but because most music today is either uninspired revival or straight up garbage. But thinking that this tendency is limited to modern prog is nothing but an indication of your own bias against it.
|
Frippertronics
04.21.17 | Somebody missed the point |
Snake.
04.21.17 | you can just smell the cheeto dust |
Frippertronics
04.22.17 | m-muh steven wilson tho |
Frippertronics
04.22.17 | Best part about this is how RJG came about several months later and admitted his band contributed to the problem by letting their singer gradually take creative control and making the band a glorified showtunes band before he quit. The man himself still didn't like the direction the genre was going in but had enough humility to admit he was part of the problem as well. |
DoofusWainwright
04.22.17 | Yeah I've had moments Steven Wilson's music has pissed me off this much |
TheSpaceMan
04.22.17 | "like the pot calling the black kettle"
agreed its like a piece of kitchenware calling a black man "kettle" |
Azertherion
04.22.17 | Long live the circlejerk |
Frippertronics
04.22.17 | implications |
