AliW1993: Scotland | Sputnikmusic

AliW1993 09.18.14	I for one hope that Scotland votes yes. Both campaigns have been flawed and guilty of scare-mongering tactics, but for me the opportunity to be in charge of and responsible for their own destiny is one that no country should pass up - especially one with such vast cultural and ideological differences with the rest of the UK. Anyway, hopefully this page can celebrate Scottish music while stirring up some reasonable debate.
BigPleb 09.18.14	Are you Scottish yourself, Ali? I really do hope Scotland stays, not only do I think it will damage the UK as a whole but I think that Scotland themselves would struggle.
tommygun 09.18.14	yea who the fuck else can england claim as 'british' once andy murray is free???????????????
Gwyn. 09.18.14	I would vote "No" if I were in Scotland. Definitely, absolutely not. Too many changes in quick succession - It's unlikely Scotland could remain providing the same amount of services and comfort on its citizens if it separates itself from the union. Besides there's little valid reason to actually break it as far as I can tell, other than the simple luxury of considering itself "Free", but then I don't live in Scotland so maybe things are a little worse than I think, I dunno; That being said I still think remaining united is the best option for Scotland, both in short and long terms.
AliW1993 09.18.14	@Pleb - No, I'm from Newcastle, but I've always loved Scotland and felt a strange affinity with much of the music it produces. I don't claim to be an expert, but while there are risks involved I don't see any major reason why they can't do okay. The only issue I'd be concerned about were I voting is the currency, which the yes campaign have been far too flippant over.
AliW1993 09.18.14	The flipside for us, of course, is that Labour will lose a huge portion of its support, and that the Conservatives will rule relatively unopposed for the foreseeable future. Regardless of who you support, that wouldn't make for a healthy political system.
zakalwe 09.18.14	If it's a yes it'll be muuuurrrrrdddduuurrrr. Nice list dude. Beta Band - Heroes to Zeros Jesus and Mary Chain - Honeys Dead King Creosote - From Scotland With Love
emester 09.18.14	SAOR
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	Honestly, the ideological angles may all be nice and dandy but unless somebody has actual plans to as an adequate execution and make up for the inevitable consequences the whole thing is pretty much an inconsequential populist move. And as I have said before, this applies to both ideas of UK secession. If Scotland secedes it'll most likely have economical issues. Apart from the whole currency debate, there may also be repercussions in terms of foreign investment (which is usually crucial to a competetive economy in a globalized market) and trade structures. The same thing applies to the U.K. their idea of leaving the E.U. with everything staying fine and dandy. That's just not realistic under the given circumstance unless there is some well thought out masterplan nobody has mentioned or laid out yet. (in both cases)
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	In other words: Idealistic political movements also have the historical tendency to fail horribly without a good executive plan when reality comes crashing down on their heads. SAOR [2] probably a bunch of other Scottish metal bands I can't recall now
Funeralopolis 09.18.14	Until this election thing came up I always thought Scotland was a separate country
JohnnyoftheWell 09.18.14	I live in Edinburgh and have voted no; Scotland would be screwed over financially and have to place steep taxes over most of the areas the SNP has promised to save from Westminster's influence. And the SNP have exaggerated or flat out lied over how much power they already have (a surprising amount; go look it up.) And foreign investment is flopping; many international banks have made clear that they don't want to touch an independent Scotland with a bargepole. And the pound would disappear from Scotland for the foreseeable future. And Scotland would be a political beggar with the EU, if it even made it in.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	^ Pretty much a more detailed take on the points I've raised.
zakalwe 09.18.14	Good lad johnny!
JohnnyoftheWell 09.18.14	Agreed, Wolf; I couldn't resist a ramble :P
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	Understandable, I mean it's an issue that you are directly affected by.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"Personally hoping that Scotland can remove themselves from the UK and soon we see the monarchy completely dissolve. It irks me enough that Australia isn't a republic yet, and if Scotland can prove it doesn't need the nanny state anymore it will be a huge step. The only negative i see at e minute- and a pretty fucking huge one- is that this will certainly fuel IS's anti-Western campaign." You can't be serious.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	Yeah, like the issues that have been raised above that will DIRECTLY affect the UK and Scotland and people living there. And historically speaking, the fools who assumed they could "just work out" an economic exit plan buried themselves knee deep in proverbial shit. And to be entirely honest, I think the kind of petty feud that fuels this type of stuff (in society) appears no different than the general childish shit-slinging you would expect from political extremists.
MO 09.18.14	I'm all for a country having control of their affairs and being run by their people, but they've been so entwined with England that as much as I'd love to see them be independant, I just think it would hurt Europe and the west in general a little too much. Maybe this could be seen as a step in the right direction to move England away from being so far up it's own ass and treating everyone around them like shit.
ResidentNihilist 09.18.14	i'd say no simply for the fact that borders are a bloody stupid idea invented by a bunch of toddlers having a tantrum and screaming MINE MINE MINE. Cultural identity is not tied up with the land you live on and nationalism is an evil that should be expunged globally. Rant over with and I get that the argument is more complex than this but that's my two pence. Cue Wolfehorde to shoot this down lol
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"I'm all for a country having control of their affairs and being run by their people, but they've been so entwined with England that as much as I'd love to see them be independant, I just think it would hurt Europe and the west in general a little too much. Maybe this could be seen as a step in the right direction to move England away from being so far up it's own ass and treating everyone around them like shit." Yes and no. It would likely result in economic damages to Scotland the UK first - it may have repercussions for continental Europe but how they look like specifically is something that is up in the air. Obviously transnational companies that rely on foreign investment with their seats on continental Europe (or outside) would be affected. Imports and exports may also be affected - particularly if tax structures and with that the tax burden is altered. "i'd say no simply for the fact that borders are a bloody stupid idea invented by a bunch of toddlers having a tantrum and screaming MINE MINE MINE. Cultural identity is not tied up with the land you live on and nationalism is an evil that should be expunged globally." Do yourself a favor, grab a history book and read up on nationalism. This kind of leftist utopan idea is nice but completely unrealistic. There's have also been various drivers of nationalist movements - from common culture to common language. And a certain conservatism regarding one's culture not dying out or being overwhelmed/dumbed down makes sense - particularly if said culture has been party of people's identity for centuries. However, that doesn't mean that this necessarily implies some kind of isolationism and hostility.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	Oh, that point is also tangential to the issue at hand. Which - admittedly - makes a certain sense based on the historical grounds of the unwilling annexation of Scotland. But given how long ago this has been, the potentially devastating consequences, the upsides of cooperation and the interwined history things start looking a bit different. Plus, there are already various institutions and instances implemented whose purpose is to (at least, partially) overcome the boundaries of national borders and "national egotism". We have the E.U., the NATO, UN, IMF, WHO and to a certain degree even the U.S. (it may be one country but it's still a vast geographical landscape with comparatively autonomous states).
osmark86 09.18.14	^considering the current climate in Europe I'd say that the nationalism we're observing is generally conservative for the most part and not very friendly at all. at least not here in Sweden.
anarchistfish 09.18.14	amazing how quickly this escalated. Yes vote seemed impossible even a year ago
anarchistfish 09.18.14	even if they vote yes, there'll be 49% of the population who don't want independence. that'll make things interesting
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	These are also either radical forms of nationalism or populist forms of nationalism which could be described as "quasi-nationalism". I'm not implying they are any good - I oppose pretty much any of these parties and their convoluted ideas. I'm simply saying that historically there have been some good reasons for nationalism and nationalism doesn't have to be detrimental phenomenon. I mean, Germany was once over 100 independent kingdoms with different taxations until the Norddeutscher Bund came along.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	Also - while a lot of these parties have been gaining momentum does not mean that they are in any way representative. (except for maybe the FN in France and to a lesser degree some of the Scandinavian ones and the LN)
KrazyKris 09.18.14	Just in general I think that there a separation from the UK could be quite a chance for Scotland. While I'm not too familiar with specific numbers, British politics seem to be focused on the south a lot and even if the Scots have definitely profited from this partnership over the last centuries, it isn't downright stupid to move away from a country whose political direction for the last decade has been questionable, especially when it comes to worldwide issues (the obvious dependance on the US is no advantage). The big problem, as already mentioned, is how you handle this chance. Scotland isn't a poor country and with their oil and gas resources they would still have enough time to establish other ways to maintain their high economical standards. But the last weeks have shown a discussion dumbed down to nationalist paroles and a "Now more than ever" attitude, leaving more question than before. Right now it looks like scottish independance could be a successful endeavour, but with Salmond and his SNP as leaders it's a mission impossible.
zakalwe 09.18.14	Die 'Norddeutscher Bund' German, such a flowery, romantic language.
anarchistfish 09.18.14	"Maybe this could be seen as a step in the right direction to move England away from being so far up it's own ass and treating everyone around them like shit." by England do you mean the Conservative Party? two of our last three prime ministers have been Scottish lol I'll be honest though, I'm not very knowledgeable on the economic relations between Scotland and the rest of the UK and who gets a raw deal, although London does tend to suck up everything. If you asked people like my father they'd say that Scotland are just ungrateful for the stuff the UK gives them but that's cos he reads shitty tabloids that only give him (very incomplete) information that re-enforces his opinions. But that just goes to show how foggy this whole situation is. I don't really think anyone knows what they're truly voting for. But that's nothing new in western democracies.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	@Kris: See above, specific issues have been mentioned with some detail. Also, all of Europe is dependant on the U.S. as their military force is securing the majority of the seaways necessary for export and import. @zak: it would be "Der Norddeutsche Bund" (which pretty much just translates to Northern German Alliance/Federation)
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	Well, London IS one of (if not the) biggest global finance centre. (and certainly of high relevance for Europe)
anarchistfish 09.18.14	London is just so much bigger than any other city in the UK though. If you look at other similarly sized countries and how big their capital is compared to their other cities and their general population, London's sort of an anomaly. I've lived most of my life there so I don't really know how it feels like to look on in from the outside though.
zakalwe 09.18.14	What borough fish?
menawati 09.18.14	would be a bit like the velvet divorce czechoslovakia had, czechs kept all the industry and service sector, slovaks kept their hills, farms and grim cities, czechs did really well out of that
anarchistfish 09.18.14	If I wanted I could take an Economic Geography unit this year which might delve into this a bit more. I'm undecided between that and Cryology.
anarchistfish 09.18.14	"What borough fish?" Bromley (it sucks) at the moment I feel like after uni I could only stay in the UK if I moved to more central London, but it's so expensive idk if it'll be realistic
anarchistfish 09.18.14	"would be a bit like the velvet divorce czechoslovakia had, czechs kept all the industry and service sector, slovaks kept their hills, farms and grim cities, czechs did really well out of that" slovakia has slowly caught up though haven't they?
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~And a certain conservatism regarding one's culture not dying out or being overwhelmed/dumbed down makes sense - particularly if said culture has been party of people's identity for centuries. However, that doesn't mean that this necessarily implies some kind of isolationism and hostility.~ The kind of patriotic attitude and nationalism that comes along without hostility is something that isn't present anymore. If you look at any country with parties focusing on these issues, it's always because of religious conflicts, the Western world being "occupied" by Muslim immigrants or shit like that. The thing you're referring to are nationalistic movements like those in 19th century Germany and Italy, where the main goal was the unification of separated territories, rather than modern developments that go in the opposite direction. Was honorable in some way back then, but still mostly to strenghten their position in European conflicts, so again not exactly peaceful. And in general nationalism and the focus on the preservation of a country's culture is hardly ever productive or desirable. In fact, it is everything but that, steming from a tradionalist and anit-progressive attitude. Plus, and that's probably the most important thing: It almost universally lowers the level of political debates and leads to a shift of focus on matters with hardly any noteworthy consequence.
ResidentNihilist 09.18.14	tbh wolf I'm not against cultures being saved etc. and I will admit that nationalism can be good sometimes (what happened in Iceland recently is one of the best examples I've ever seen) but nationalism in Britain has so long been interlaced with a longing for the 'glory days', a bruised national ego and a lack of self-awareness that it does anything but bring out the best in people in this country. That and the fact that I feel centuries of cultural links are going to be undone by one referendum and the kind of helplessness that comes along with that is really frustrating.
menawati 09.18.14	"in general nationalism and the focus on the preservation of a country's culture is hardly ever productive or desirable" Agree on nationalism but I don't think there is anything wrong with preserving a culture which, for all its faults, champions tolerance and freedom of speech and tries to stamp out racial/sexual/gender discrimination in the face of some other imported cultures which do not.
MO 09.18.14	"by England do you mean the Conservative Party?" I mean the Westminster system in general. It's out dated and results in a very very skewed political system.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~Also, all of Europe is dependant on the U.S. as their military force is securing the majority of the seaways necessary for export and import.~ Sadly yes, but it's undeniable that there's obviously a strong bond between US and UK politics that hardly ever seems justified. Especially when it comes to Middle East issues the British way to deal with them apparently is to just repeat what comes from the other side of the Atlantic and that's pretty much it. Europe is right now everything but the strong union it wants to be, but with an economically weakened US - not that Europe looks so healthy right now - and maybe some positive developments here and there - maybe Mogherini will be more active than Ashton - this could change a little bit in the future. The importance of London as one of worlds biggest financial centers is definitely an issue on that matter - although it's sad that stock markets can have such an impact on politics - as is the lack of profitable industry in Scotland, still I say, if done right, they could go without losing too much and instead gain their independance.
anarchistfish 09.18.14	"I mean the Westminster system in general. It's out dated and results in a very very skewed political system." welcome to world democracy amigo
menawati 09.18.14	I know it aint so simple as this but just by dropping their corp tax rate if they go independent (like Eire did) they'd attract a lot of big companies. The hitch there would be the delay in joining the EU..and look what happened to Eire anyway.
osmark86 09.18.14	^pretty much the same in Sweden as with the far-right nationalism in the UK. it's very unfortunate that a party whose party leader (Jimmie Åkersson) has massive gambling issues, whose former press secretary (William Petzäll) died of an overdose, and whose foreign affairs/justice minister (Kent Ekeroth) has gone around Stockholm threatening people with iron bars (yes, it's unbelievable but true --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPycz-tsrDM), bans certain part of the media from press conferences and makes statements that they will, in time, control the media. even if some nationalism, as in the case of uniting small Germanic kingdoms, is arguably positive, the quasi-nationalism (or however we should define it) that is gaining momentum in Europe today is anything but positive imo.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	@menawati Yeah, but it raises the question what we're talking about, when we say "culture"? I guess your reference to "some other imported cultures" is aimed at highly conservative Middle East immigrants mostly. While they're attitude and beliefs is a problem and actually laughable, it's an issue of religious misundertanding by them rather than a cultural thing. And while the British culture is mostly new land for me, looking at others like those of France, Italy, Austria, etc., what those countries consider culture doesn't appear to me to be too much of a loss.
zakalwe 09.18.14	"a party whose party leader (Jimmie Åkersson) has massive gambling issues, whose former press secretary (William Petzäll) died of an overdose, and whose foreign affairs/justice minister (Kent Ekeroth) has gone around Stockholm threatening people with iron bars." More proof (not that it were needed) that Sweden is the most rock n roll country on the planet.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	@osmark Agreed 100%. Didn't now the Sweden Democrats are such idiots to be honest, I though they're still one of the more tolerable nationalist idiots. So we have now "bunga, bunga" Berlusconi, gas chamber Le Pen, anti-Mohammed Wilders, the neo-nazis in Greece and Germany and our lovely Swedish friends too. And I don't even want to start talking about our Austrian idiots from the Freedom Party (just threw out a guy for saying NS ideology wasn't bad). Good old Europe is dying, it seems.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	You're krazy, zak.
anarchistfish 09.18.14	More proof (not that it were needed) that Sweden is the most rock n roll country on the planet. [2]
ResidentNihilist 09.18.14	yep and the uk has look at me I'm so honest even though I'm not Farage. Europe is fucked lol.
osmark86 09.18.14	@zak: or a country where as long as you point the finger at minorities you can get away with anything. but yeah, m/m/m/ @KrazyKris: they're anything but tolerable. they make constant slipups (those were just a few examples in a massive list of slipups), but they amassed a record 13% in the elections that were just held. it's a fucking disgrace if you ask me. Populist bullshit on the rise in Europe and not losing momentum it seems. a massive bummer for everyone...
KrazyKris 09.18.14	Well, ours are currently in the lead in every poll. So, maybe next year we'll be lead by such a guy. Our current Chancellor is already an opportunistic guy without a spine or any ideology, but that would be just so embarrassing. Good that I don't see myself as an Austrian.
CoolCalmJoe 09.18.14	freeeeeeeeeeeeedom. I learned a lot in this thread, thank yee.
menawati 09.18.14	i wonder how many potential yes voters are voting no because they detest salmond, i mean he's really annoying even as politicians go
KrazyKris 09.18.14	a decision between Salmond and Cameron isn't exactly an easy one.
CoolCalmJoe 09.18.14	Would residents of Scotland be able to choose to stay in the U.K. if this were to pass?
greg84 09.18.14	Well done Ali.
menawati 09.18.14	well, cameron is punchable but salmond is machinegundownable
menawati 09.18.14	"Would residents of Scotland be able to choose to stay in the U.K. if this were to pass?" no, they'd have to get a visa, we already got hundreds of thousands though, they come here for work and occasional pleasant weather
osmark86 09.18.14	@KrazyKris: I can't say I know much about Werner Faymann to form an opinion on him. that's one helluva sad poll though. what are people thinking? have we forgotten history that much? On a lulz-note (or cry note for that matter) I just overheard two people, which I assume are SD voters, make some derogatory comments on immigration with a documentary on Nazi WWII running on the TV in the bar behind them. the irony is palpable.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	@menawati Yeah, but Cameron is one of those guys that obviously can't do anything right. I mean, his biggest thing throughout his term seems to be taking a stand against the EU and he already lost that fight - was stupid to start that whole "we will pull out" thing, turned out quite embarrassing for him.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"The kind of patriotic attitude and nationalism that comes along without hostility is something that isn't present anymore." I'm sorry but that is simply incorrect. "If you look at any country with parties focusing on these issues, it's always because of religious conflicts, the Western world being "occupied" by Muslim immigrants or shit like that." Strawman, I never mentioned anything about political parties. I was talking about nationalism and conservatism in general - that does not necessarily refer to political engagement - much less a political party. "The thing you're referring to are nationalist movements like those in 19th century Germany and Italy, where the main goal was the unification of separated territories, rather than modern developments that go in the opposite direction." Yes, it's a historical example. Again, he made a general point about nationalism - I replied in kind. I never said anything about current trends of nationalism. Again, see above - what I mentioned is not about political parties. "Was honorable in some way back then, but still mostly to strenghten their position in European conflicts, so again not exactly peaceful." It's not about whether something is "honorable" or not, ideologies may be nice but we should be careful with them. Again, I'm not referring to any of these so your points are tangential to my argument. Particularly since I already made it very clear what I think of such parties. Moving on,
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"And in general nationalism and the focus on the preservation of a country's culture is hardly ever productive or desirable." Because having a schizophrenic cultural identity like the U.S. is certainly such a better idea. "In fact, it is everything but that, steming from a tradionalist and anit-progressive attitude." No, it doesn't. You're vastly oversimplfying things here. There are many Bavarians that are traditional conservatives that want to preserve their local culture but have absolutely zero issues with general progress. They have some of the most advanced educational facilities and laboratories in this country. (including their Staatsbrauerei Weihenstephan which experiments in facilities of the TU München) "Plus, and that's probably the most important thing: It almost universally lowers the level of political debates and leads to a shift of focus on matters with hardly any noteworthy consequence." Again, you're completely misinterpreting what I'm getting at. I'm not talking of political discourse in relation to current trends. I'm talking about the general ideas of conservatism and preserving culture. These are not exclusive to political engagement or political parties. There quite a few "conservatives" that don't even vote. There's also the thing that "conservative" in societal and political terms can be completely different things. German "conservative" is already different to British and American conservative.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	@osmark Well, Faymann is one of those guys that really stand for nothing actually. Pretty much there just to be there and very inactive although it's already his second term. He's not too bad as a networker and that is what saves him politically, especially in his party, and I personally have not too much of a problem with him, but he isn't exactly what a country should look for as a leader. Such a "Hello, I'm here too" opportunistic guy, without much to say is still better than an ideologically misled and populistic scumbag like HC Strache (Freedom Party leader) though.
titanslayer 09.18.14	I don't know if I'll be able to go but there's a Celtic fair in my town I'm thinking about going to.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"Sadly yes, but it's undeniable that there's obviously a strong bond between US and UK politics that hardly ever seems justified." Why? There are strong political relationships between Germany and Russia. How is that justified? There are strong political relationships between other OECD countries and China. Both of these countries contionously disregard human rights and international law. There are also certain pragmatic implications that all the ideology in the world can't wish away. "Especially when it comes to Middle East issues the British way to deal with them apparently is to just repeat what comes from the other side of the Atlantic and that's pretty much it." So? Quite a few countries in Europe are involved in these dealings and others - they mostly also don't have too much of a choice if you actually look at NATO and UN directives. Although in general, the participation of E.U. countries in U.S. foreign operations is much more slim and passive than people would assume. "Europe is right now everything but the strong union it wants to be, but with an economically weakened US" Which is not the case. The general U.S. economy has been steadily growing over the past 3+ decades. Sure, some sectors may have taken from some to quite large damage - but that doesn't necessarily impact the overall economic power to such a degree. What has been declining/not rising with the growth is wages. The U.S. certainly doesn't have problems with attracting investment or growing their economy. They have wage, wealth distribution and cost (=> debt) issues. " - not that Europe looks so healthy right now" Which is a completely different beast since generalizing Europe makes no sense. Particularly if you don't have any medians at hand since some parts of Europe do vastly worse than other parts.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~No, it doesn't. You're vastly oversimplfying things here. There are many Bavarians that are traditional conservatives that want to preserve their local culture but have absolutely zero issues with general progress. They have some of the most advanced educational facilities and laboratories in this country.~ Yeah, but those two aren't linked too much. If we take the term "conservative" as the desire to preserve cultural idiosyncracies (which is a very vague definition, but it seems like that's what you're talking about) than we have to take a look at the progress in that particular field and both scientific progress and the educational system describe that insufficiently or at least just in parts. To take up the Bavaria example, a CSU government, a long discussion about all non-germans having to pay a toll when driving through Bavaria or a compared to the average still quite religious population aren't an indication of a very progressive mentality at all.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	" The importance of London as one of worlds biggest financial centers is definitely an issue on that matter - although it's sad that stock markets can have such an impact on politics" Why? It's part of the economy and the economy is subject to politics - politics as mediator and regulator has the purpose to make the best out of a country's economy. " - as is the lack of profitable industry in Scotland, still I say, if done right, they could go without losing too much and instead gain their independance. " I agree. I'm not saying that it is an impossibility. I'm saying it's highly unlikely if they don't have a plan as to its proper execution - which as of now - they do not. (unless, again, there is some master plan that hasn't been laid out yet) "Good old Europe is dying, it seems." What are you? Cold war era German? Seriously, if there's one thing we don't need it's that type of "dystopian expectations" attitude. I think you're exaggerating things a bit. "Yeah, but Cameron is one of those guys that obviously can't do anything right. I mean, his biggest thing throughout his term seems to be taking a stand against the EU and he already lost that fight" You do realize that was a tactical move to retain voters that could possibly stray from them in order to vote for the populists?
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"Yeah, but those two aren't linked too much. If we take the term "conservative" as the desire to preserve cultural idiosyncracies (which is a very vague definition, but it seems like that's what you're talking about) than we have to take a look at the progress in that particular field and both scientific progress and the educational system describe that insufficiently or at least just in parts To take up the Bavaria example, a CSU government, a long discussion about all non-germans having to pay a toll when driving through Bavaria or a compared to the average still quite religious population aren't an indication of a very progressive mentality at all." Are you even responding to what I'm saying? I already mentioned at least three times that what I'm talking about in particular is NOT about political parties OR political discourse. So unless you respond to what I'm actually saying I don't see how anything you say is actually in any way relevant to my point. As for the the general tendencies of the populace you're talking about I'm just gonna go ahead and say they are a) inaccurate for such a densely populated country b) skewed by the majority of older generations which mostly outnumber younger generations in the Southern regions and c) it's a general tendency, not an accurate picture of a populace as a whole. As for ideologies, science and progress: First of all, the idea that progress and science are necessarily and always 100% positive is a flawed sentiment to begin with. Second, the idea that one ideology is by necessity more correlated with furthering positive progress and scientific development is also faulty. Some of the most "liberal" or "left-winged" areas in OECD countries (e.g. the majority of the East Coast in the U.S.) have perpetuated an anti-vaccination trend (where dangers are vastly overstated) which hurts herd immunity which is bad for the general populace as well as conspiracy theories and the spread of misconstrued information because of ideological biases.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	country=region, although the same thing applies to countries. And this kind of black/white thinking when it comes to differences between ideologies is overly simplistic and reductionist. An ideology itself can't be "good" or "bad" just by virtue of its ideas/virtues.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~There are strong political relationships between Germany and Russia. How is that justified? There are strong political relationships between other OECD countries and China. Both of these countries contionously disregard human rights and international law.~ Well, Germany (mostly) follows the oil, as do many other countries. That isn't justifiable, but the Ukraine crisis is a perfect example why US politics shouldn't just be accepted and adapted by the EU or its members. There's nothing positive about those idiotic plans to force Putin to act by placing NATO soldiers in front of him and pass some sanctions that actually help in no way to loosen up the tensions. I don't want the EU to surrender to Putin, but if their attitude is to believe everything that comes from Washington, the goddamn NATO or this Ukrainian nutcase Jazenjuk, that's not the way to go. (a little off-topic, but who cares) The EU should start to act as a independent force in world politics, much more taking a neutral, objective stance on many issues than blindly following Obama. With the UK as important as it is now, a development in that direction seems impossible. Maybe on the whole not realistic, but we're not talking about realistic scenarios anyway. ~So? Quite a few countries in Europe are involved in these dealings and others - they mostly also don't have too much of a choice if you actually look at NATO and UN directives. Although in general, the participation of E.U. countries in U.S. foreign operations is much more slim and passive than people would assume.~ And that's good. The last justifiable military operation the US started was back in the days of the George Bush administration and the Kuwait occupation. Since then it's all about mythical dangers that never seem to be there in the end. The US politics and the NATO are really nothing the Western World should be too proud of.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"Well, Germany (mostly) follows the oil, as do many other countries. That isn't justifiable" Why? You are stating opinions but you fail to give reasons. "but the Ukraine crisis is a perfect example why US politics shouldn't just be accepted and adapted by the EU or its members." You are oversimplfying again. "There's nothing positive about those idiotic plans to force Putin to act by placing NATO soldiers in front of him and pass some sanctions that actually help in no way to loosen up the tensions." Then do pray tell, what is a better alternative in your opinion? I'm beginning to think you don't have a good grasp of political maneuvers - otherwise you would at least know the context of these moves and have more constructive criticism. "I don't want the EU to surrender to Putin, but if their attitude is to believe everything that comes from Washington, the goddamn NATO or this Ukrainian nutcase Jazenjuk, that's not the way to go. (a little off-topic, but who cares)" Again, you're vastly oversimplifying. "The EU should start to act as a independent force in world politics, much more taking a neutral, objective stance on many issues" You do realize that is neither possible, nor realistic? I would also rethink the "objective stance" thing - objectively, ideals and human rights don't exist as they are intrisically human constructs. "than blindly following Obama." Again with the simplification. You do realize this a serious allegation? Do you have any conclusive proof for that or are you just interpreting things here? "With the UK as important as it is now, a development in that direction seems impossible. Maybe on the whole not realistic, but we're not talking about realistic scenarios anyway. " Except that the connection to reality makes an argument tangible more constructive than comparing the reality to some Utopia in your head.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	To elaborate on the political maneuvers point: The only major foreign policy tools you have are sanctions, economic restrictions (which are often included in sanctions) and military intervention. And if you do nothing it will be taken as a sign that the only thing you will do in the future is maybe talk but not actually do anything. (quite similar to precedence in law) And realistically, the consquences (which could be costs) also have to be taken into consideration. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these kind of solutions are ideal nor that they are adequate. But if you already go full offensive on them without getting at the dilemma that is being posed by such situations there should at least be mention of constructive, tangible alternatives.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	And just for the record: I'm sorry if sarcasm has snuck its way into some of what I'm saying but if there's one thing I hate its simplistic reductionism and overgeneralizing. That's how misconstrual of information and the spread of false and misinterpreted information starts, I don't think I have to elaborate on the damage these can have.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~Why? It's part of the economy and the economy is subject to politics - politics as mediator and regulator has the purpose to make the best out of a country's economy.~ When was the last time you had the feeling politics are actually able to mediate what's going on at London or Frankfurt. If anything, it's the other way round and don't tell me that's some populistic bullshit. What the EU has done through this whole economical crisis showcases nothing like control over financial markets and its players. ~"Good old Europe is dying, it seems." What are you? Cold war era German? Seriously, if there's one thing we don't need it's that type of "dystopian expectations" attitude. I think you're exaggerating things a bit.~ Come on, it's a song title, nothing more. And I actually didn't refer to any situation in the European past in particular, but since my comment was solely aimed at the way political discourse has changed over the last decades, I'd say, Europe has seen better days when it comes to that. ~I already mentioned at least three times that what I'm talking about in particular is NOT about political parties OR political discourse.~ How is it even possible to discuss general social issues without talking about everyday? And on your critique on my generalizations about the Bavarian people: That's right, but do you expect me to do? Present some stats that showcase every noteworthy aspect on that issue. We're writing in a music forum, my interest in Bavarian politics and even more so its people is naturally limited and therefore, yes, I'm working with quite polemic arguments, but I'm not picking out the most obscure things, but rather those that are actually in some way representative of the regions attitude.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"When was the last time you had the feeling politics are actually able to mediate what's going on at London or Frankfurt. If anything, it's the other way round and don't tell me that's some populistic bullshit. What the EU has done through this whole economical crisis showcases nothing like control over financial markets and its players." It's not about feelings, it's about facts and proof. Slinging around these kinds of vague and simplistic accusations is exactly why politicians don't take people who say them any anyone who belongs to the same group seriously. Not to mention that none of this addresses my point. "Come on [..]" I didn't say you were referring to the past, I said that statement displayed an attitude that some people had in the past due the historical circumstances. "How is it even possible to discuss general social issues without talking about everyday?" I don't know what that sentence is supposed to mean.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~And just for the record: I'm sorry if sarcasm has snuck its way into some of what I'm saying but if there's one thing I hate its simplistic reductionism and overgeneralizing.~ No problem with that. If a guy from Vienna knows then how to handle sarcasm and cynicism and I agree that most of the things I brought up are only vaguely described and there aren't any solutions in sight from my side. But it's a bit difficult to discuss such things in a music forum and in a foreign language, at least for me. Giving any reasonable alternatives to all the flaws I pointed out in this discussion would only be possible, if I thought about it for a few days (won't do that because all in all I don't care to much, I'm just a discussion guy), because my information about those issues isn't even close to be sufficient enough to decide what I would do. The only thing I can say for sure is that what's done for example in the whole Ukraine - Russia thing is far away from being good, if it is really the least evil, as politicians want us to believe, is nothing I can judge right now, but it seems quite unlikely to be honest.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~"How is it even possible to discuss general social issues without talking about everyday?" I don't know what that sentence is supposed to mean.~ Sorry, wanted to write "everyday politics". Also, I think we should come to an end some time soon, cause our little talk is going on for I don't know how long now and it seems as my general opinion isn't too bad: Don't talk about things that complicated on the internet and in another language than your mother tongue.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"And on your critique on my generalizations about the Bavarian people: That's right, but do you expect me to do?" Acknowledge that general tendencies are just that, general tendencies - maybe also that there may be confounding variables (inequal distribution of demographics) that may skew things. "Present some stats that showcase every noteworthy aspect on that issue." Don't exist because it's impossible, that's why there are certain general guidelines and principles when talking about such issues - as with science and studies in general. Not everything is created equal in that regard. "We're writing in a music forum, my interest in Bavarian politics and even more so its people is naturally limited and therefore, yes, I'm working with quite polemic arguments, but I'm not picking out the most obscure things, but rather those that are actually in some way representative of the regions attitude." Nobody forces you to enter a debate but if you do I will hold you to the same standards as everyone else. If you lack expertise in a matter it's not "shameful" just not to comment on that or at least make clear what the framework of your arguments are. If you just throw out arguments like that - particularly with a certain phrasing - they give the impression you are aiming to make universal claims. And to which degree something is "representative" is a completely different beast. I might as well say Austrians are obviously nationalist alcoholic xenophobes, U.S. Americans are fat, lazy, ignorant and couldn't get a proper debate going to save their lave, the Polish are a dirty bunch of neo-capitalists and the British is a racist, xenophobic bunch that is about as ignorant and uninformed as the Americans. Stereotypes make things easier and they may to SOME DEGREE be rooted in reality, but whether they're in any way representative is highly debatable.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	"Sorry, wanted to write "everyday politics" If anything, the municipal politics are related to "everyday politics". Not the politics on the level of the federal states. Plus it's very well possible to do so. Again, I know more than a few people who care about issues and society but not about politics. "Also, I think we should come to an end some time soon, cause our little talk is going on for I don't know how long now and it seems as my general opinion isn't too bad: Don't talk about things that complicated on the internet and in another language than your mother tongue. I agree that it's not a bad idea to come to an end. Although I personally have no issue debating things in English. Admittedly, may have gone a bit heavy on this one (as in, too much for this platform) - happens sometimes.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~I might as well say Austrians are obviously nationalist alcoholic xenophobes~ Well, that's not too far away from the truth. And you can tell me that it only describes a particular group of the population as long as you want. To describe a bunch of people as Austrians just because they live in that country is already a generalization of some sort. Everything from that point onward is almost bound to be one too. And although I'm personally definitely a prime example of our so called individualist generation, a country or a region and it's population is at best described by majorities. So, if I say that Austria is a catholic country it doesn't mean everyone there is catholic, only that the majority is. And if you look at Austrians, calling them alcoholic and nationalist isn't completely insufficient
bakkermaarten007 09.18.14	I would like to be in Scotland now. The atmosphere is exhilarating, allegedly.
Wolfhorde 09.18.14	Taking a hike through the Highlands must be awesome. I actually had a kilt somewhere but I can't find it for the life of me.
KrazyKris 09.18.14	~Although I personally have no issue debating things in English. Admittedly, may have gone a bit heavy on this one (as in, too much for this platform) - happens sometimes.~ Yeah, usually no problem with English either, but my vocabulary really doesn't survive such a discussion and I hate it to make a point in a way I myself find insufficient (happened a lot here). Plus, finally I have to say that my interest in politics isn't really too big. It was years ago and I still follow most of it, but rather as a quite sad form of entertainment, than something that really bothers me. Anyways, good talk.
NorwichScene 09.18.14	Eye, love Scottish bands. My fav are prob: 1) Flood of Red 2) There Will be Fireworks 3) Frightened Rabbit 4) Admiral Fallow 5) We Were Promised Jetpacks
HBFS 09.18.14	It's a pretty crazy time to be in Scotland, that's for sure. Very cool as an aussie to be able to (potentially) witness and experience an important part of history. I look forward to the results tomorrow! The atmosphere here is really crazy - the scottish are definitely very passionate people haha.
menawati 09.19.14	Looks like it's going to be no. Shame, I was looking forward to time not being wasted on Scottish football on TV any more.
ExplosiveOranges 09.19.14	Good list, Ali. As an American, I'm not gonna pretend that I completely understand all of the history behind English-Scottish tensions, but what I do know is that Scotland and England fought a ton of wars against one another before forming the U.K. back in the early 1700s, and there's been cultural clashing ever since. I'm not gonna take either side on the issue, but if Scotland does become an independent state, there's going to be quite a bit of instability in the U.K. for the next few months.
Gwyn. 09.19.14	still no result? according to a bunch of sites Im reading it appears the no vote is winning but it's not completely certain. what it's certain is that it is VERY close regardless
Relinquished 09.19.14	let's get drunk
InfamousGrouse 09.19.14	150k down, not looking good for us at all
InfamousGrouse 09.19.14	@gywn result probably won't be 100% clear until the big cities (glasgow and edinburgh) declare in the next hour but i'd put the Yes campaign's chances to win at 25% max
InfamousGrouse 09.19.14	apparently glasgow will come in within the next 5-10 minutes but after that, barring a resounding Yes, the campaign is basically over :[
Gwyn. 09.19.14	i wish i stilll had my scotch :c "@gywn result probably won't be 100% clear until the big cities (glasgow and edinburgh) declare in the next hour but i'd put the Yes campaign's chances to win at 25% max" yea it appears almost every city so far has voted no though the difference is very thin. yes would need a difference of like 40% to be able to win if one of the big cities votes no as well it appears
InfamousGrouse 09.19.14	edinburgh will most certainly be 55%+ No. Lanarkshires in now of around 500k and it's not made any difference to the situation at all.. Oh well, at least we can be proud of our general turnout and the political discussion touching every corner of our country
zakalwe 09.19.14	To all the lads and lassies who voted you're a credit to the nation. It's good to still have you on board.
InfamousGrouse 09.19.14	general turnout just shy of 85% is quite incredible
InfamousGrouse 09.19.14	it's 6 30am and i'm still wide awake man haha
zakalwe 09.19.14	I thought you personally were going to be a no me man? What swung it for you?
Thunderkat 09.19.14	So they rejected independence
Thunderkat 09.19.14	but its pretty amazing that 85% turned out to vote.
ResidentNihilist 09.19.14	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzRQ4QrZnXQ
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	It's not as if seperating their nation from a (somewhat forced) historical union would've actually made them independent. It has probably also spared them from an economic jackhammer to the face, not to mention that separationist tendencies don't really fuel good relations or co-operation, either. All the ideology in the world doesn't change that.
Gwyn. 09.19.14	oooh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUR-HgAtwtg normally I'd put in slight question the validity of this video but it appears this video is actively being blocked from sharing, so, that's interesting
bach 09.19.14	cocteau twins
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	Because if something doesn't go the way you like it, start accusing things of being a conspiracy - because that's how sensible people behave - particularly with wild interpretations of some muddy footage. YouTube isn't really the cornerstone of credible evidence.
Gwyn. 09.19.14	There are also police men probing voting frauds on Glasgow. Apparently there are at least 10 cases of alleged fraud in the area. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29264151 I would vote for No if I could (I don't live in Scotland), I said this on my first post. That doesn't mean I support a voting rig; If democracy won't be allowed to do its work then Scotland might as well not have voted at all.
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	I'm sorry, I just get cautious when it comes to sources such as YouTube, blogs and the likes being introduced as evidence. I think the reasons for that are fairly obvious. Now that there are credible sources reporting on that is a different thing, although what that article mentions doesn't sound like something big (so far) - at least not to the degree that it would skew the vote by too much.
Gwyn. 09.19.14	It's alright. Oh, yeah, it would require a rather large scaled fraud campaign for it be really effective, given the difference in voting over all - Nevertheless, I think it's worth wondering pondering over. Apparently there are several investigations being done already in order to look into this and see where else did these situations occur - So if they manage to find anything substancial we'll probably be hearing news and discussions about this for the next few weeks.
anarchistfish 09.19.14	lol wasn't even close in the end
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	Yeah, depending on how often such incidents ocurred. It's certainly worth pondering over given credible evidence, I personally just don't like how such incidents are often used (or rather: blown out of proportion) to further a personal political agenda - one that is often tangential to the issue. As is probably obvious by now, I'm most "concerned" about the consequences that these things have will first and foremost for the affected groups (populace and politics in the UK) and then potential consequences outside of that, i.e. ripple effects outside of the U.K. (particularly on continental Europe) - be they political, social or economic.
anarchistfish 09.19.14	they're suggesting the UK might move towards a more federal system worst part of this whole debate has def been the americans taking the moral high ground on an issue they barely understand but what's new
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	That's exactly what I was referring to with making it about your own political agenda that are often completely tangential to the issues at hand. Although I've seen the same in the context of OZ with some people going on about the whole "republic" thing (which makes next to no difference) I don't see any issues with a move towards a federal system conceptually.
KrazyKris 09.19.14	@Gwyn The reason why such things can happen there is because of the stupid notion to let people vote without asking them for their ID. It's enough to just tell them your name and adress, that's why this happened and as far as I know, none of those guys, who tried to vote twice actually made it. So all in all not on the same scale as the 2000 Florida thing yet.
KrazyKris 09.19.14	And on the NO vote in general, I'd have to say, it seems like the logical thing to do, simply because people didn't know what they would get in an independant Scotland. Still, the downside is that it's a letdown for other independance movements like Catalans and that a big defeat for the UK is off the table, even if the whole debate wasn't eactly a sign of its strength.
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	Some of the things were relatively easy to predict what they would get with an independent Scotland because the rest of the U.K. certainly wouldn't let them hold on the Pound. Foreign investors also announced from the get-go of this whole thing that they would withdraw their investments. Then you'd most likely also see trade effects. Whether the vote as it is changes the political landscape or whether the alternative would have is pretty much pure speculation. To which degree this vote alters people's day to day life is also questionable. "it's a letdown for other independance movements like Catalans" Good thing in my opinion. I also find it curious that you support independence movements but oppose any notion of conservatism and nationalism, particularly as these concepts have a certain overlapping congruence. "a big defeat for the UK is off the table," What kind of statement is that? What good would that do? "even if the whole debate wasn't eactly a sign of its strength." No shit. Any debate with such ideological fuel is almost bound to turn into a shitshow at some point. Just look at what happened to most social cause movements that got big. (Occupy, certain centres of Greenpeace - hell, even certain political parties)
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	Also, tangential precedence doesn't really matter in secession issues except maybe for gaining more momentum. In the U.S for example, secession isn't even possible legally.
anarchistfish 09.19.14	"What kind of statement is that? What good would that do? " maybe the USA can come along and "liberate" the UK themselves
JohnnyoftheWell 09.19.14	Lol Fish, did you see the "Should Obama deploy troops to Scotland" parody article? So glad that all has turned out well; that was a long night
anarchistfish 09.19.14	nope, reading now
KrazyKris 09.19.14	Yeah, but the things clear beforehand were rather what Scotland would not get, instead of what they could get. The currency question is perfect for that. The pound was no option, the euro also highly unlikely and there aren't so many other options, since plans for the Scots getting their own currency were as far as I know non-existent. And you're right about the unpredictably of the consequences. Actually, although the 55 vs. 45 percent vote is marketed as a huge victory, if you look at it without regard of the turbulences of the last one or two weeks, it is a big loss for Salmond, but not that much of a victory for the "better together" guys. 45% means still over 1.5 million people voted for Yes, not exactly a neglectable minority. ~I also find it curious that you support independence movements but oppose any notion of conservatism and nationalism, particularly as these concepts have a certain overlapping congruence.~ Well, for me there are two aspects clashing. The background of these movements with a purely nationalistic stand isn't something I would ever support. On the other hand, suppressing the will of so many people, may it be reasonable or not, is actually even more of a problem in my eyes. Also, such separation movements, if successful, can lead to a more balanced structure of the EU, which is also the point behind the "big defeat" statement. Right now the internal politics suffer from the dominance of its three biggest countries, Germany, France and the UK. One could say that this is justified, since especially Germans and Brits have economic strength on their side, but a union consisting of more and smaller members would have the advantage that it is more democratic. Pointless to some extent, I know, since especially Germany has its important role set in stone, but a weaker UK could be a step in the right direction.
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	"Yeah, but the things clear beforehand were rather what Scotland would not get, instead of what they could get. The currency question is perfect for that. The pound was no option, the euro also highly unlikely and there aren't so many other options, since plans for the Scots getting their own currency were as far as I know non-existent." That is my whole point. The losses would have far outweighed any real gains - if there were any to be had given the, and excuse my phrasing, relative cluelessness of the independence advocates as to its proper execution and Scotland's future. Particularly how to save their economy from taking said jackhammer to the face. I agree about your win/loss analysis for the participating parties, although that was not exactly what I was referring to. I was speaking in a more general manner whether the political discourse or power structures would change by much. "Well, for me there are two aspects clashing. The background of these movements with a purely nationalistic stand isn't something I would ever support. On the other hand, suppressing the will of so many people, may it be reasonable or not, is actually even more of a problem in my eyes." No nationalist movement has ever been "purely" nationalist. The Nazis employed socialist, conservative and even religious talking points. So do BF and the UKIP (the latter of which even has "independence" in their name) The LN in Italy has had proposals in the past to secede from the South. Also an independent movement with no purely nationalist background (after all, it's a region WITHIN a country) The lines between these things are a lot more blurry than your statements would indicate. Particularly when it comes to backing by the populace, I would bet solid money on the assumption that a lot of people voted "Yes" for conservative, nationalist reasons - not because they had a well-thought out historical perspective in mind. (if you look at UK polls in general, they don't look very rosy) "Also, such separation movements, if successful, can lead to a more balanced structure of the EU" Emphasis being on CAN, not have to. It wouldn't be unlikely for those regions to suffer massive losses from the secession though which could just as easily lead to quite an impact on people's standards of life. "Right now the internal politics suffer from the dominance of its three biggest countries, Germany, France and the UK." You underestimate the influence of the Benelux countries and Italy. Also, that is an unproven hypothesis as size does not relate to political power within the E.U. political structure.
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	"more and smaller members would have the advantage that it is more democratic." That is a possibility, but not a clear consequence. I may remind you that what you're suggesting is power diffusion, the very principle that has made the the U.S. political structures about as flexible as the Catholic Church. "but a weaker UK could be a step in the right direction." Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on the specifics. But I don't see how their economic power correlates with their political power (their economic power is not that much by comparison) - their economic power lies mostly in London which would be unaltered by said "defeat". You're also equating "more (directly) democratic" with "good" or good consequences, which - again - is a possibility but by miles not a necessity. Switzerland has provided some nice examples for that.
Flugmorph 09.19.14	Biffy clyro :)
eddie95 09.19.14	LN in Italy is purely a racist party, with very silly ideals and stupid people at the head of it. The case of Scotland is a bit different, for the history is different. Nothern Italy, especially Lombardia and Veneto, claims to have a national identity but there never was one. Ironically enough, the Italian reunification in 1861 started from that North that now would secede from Rome, even if it's just a low percentage of people (8% ca). With that said I am also against nationalism, but there are different kinds of it and it depends on the case and the history of the very country involved.
KrazyKris 09.19.14	Sure, our (or rather my) guesses and suggestions about the consequences of the Scottish independance or independance movements in general are anything but certain. But that's pretty much the thing with hypotheses, especially if, as it is the case with my argumentation, they aren't based on any statistical evidence. Therefore I'm just looking at the possible outcomes and accept the fact, that not one person in this forum (me included) can really say how likely most of them are. That's why I would disagree if you say that the losses would have far outweighed the gains. I think neither you nor I can judge that with any certainty. The only thing we know is, that a negative outcome appeared to be more likely, no more, no less. ~You're also equating "more (directly) democratic" with "good" or good consequences, which - again - is a possibility but by miles not a necessity.~ The idea that more directly democratic structures could have positive consequences is, as for now, rather a utopian notion than anything else. I'm in general against it, seeing how low the general knowledge of basic (inter-)national politics and political structures is, at least here in Austria (Switzerland is also a perfect example, how it shouldn't work) What I was going for was rather a reorganisation of the power structure in the EU. Again, if that would strengthen the union is not 100% sure, but I doubt a shift of power from the dominating countries (you're right, I forgot the Benelux area, Italy though is rather heading south as it seems, especially because of their economical problems) would worsen the situation.
anarchistfish 09.19.14	"I would bet solid money on the assumption that a lot of people voted "Yes" for conservative, nationalist reasons - not because they had a well-thought out historical perspective in mind. " agreed, there's so much historical nationalism behind this. it's not just "oh no the english are being mean"
menawati 09.19.14	"historical nationalism" - I find it very depressing that young kids with innocent minds are moulded by historical nationalism. I grew up on the welsh border and I still remember the first time some Welsh kids said something anti-English to me. I was sort of shocked and didn't understand at all why they were judging me based on where I was born. You soon learn to handle it of course but it's still sad.
anarchistfish 09.19.14	I used to get so much anti-French shit at school. Probably why I identify so little as English these days, cos I got so alienated
anarchistfish 09.19.14	yeah it's not the same thing as nationalism, it's more of a half-serious anti-French stigma the English seem to hold same effect though you really do wonder where kids as young as 6 get this kind of mentality from
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	@Kris: As for the guesses - of course - everything is to some extent guesswork with a certain variance and we never make predictions that are 100% certain unless those predictions concern something basic and relatively simple. But we don't need to, we make judgements based on what's more likely or less likely in a given circumstance given the information (or evidence) available to us. In that sense, my judgement is that I think Scotland would have likely lost more than it would have gained. (particularly economically) As for democracies, a lot of people tie direct and "more democratic" systems together by default so I also mentioned it while I was at it. As your idea of restructuring I will note again that power diffusion is the most basic principle of U.S. political power structure which most often leads to inefficiency and institutional rigidity. Not to mention that our political system within the E.U. would pretty much start to equal theirs except with some different labels - ours wouldn't be two big parties, it would be different wings with lots of small parties which can easily make for issues of coherence. We already have examples of this with these current nationalist/populist parties that have incredibly incoherent voter bases. And infighting in such instances certainly isn't going to make the E.U. any stronger. I also don't see how more smaller parts are going to make for a counterbalance to the bigger ones if they are not incredibly congruent and coherent. There is also the thing that your notion of "dominance" is vastly overstated as it is solely economical and not political as political hegemony is an impossibility within the power structures of the E.U. (despite what any populist, leftist or right winged propaganda of misconstrued information may claim) - unless you're making allegations against these states of rigging the system which would require some serious proof.
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	@fish: Yeah, unfortunately that is still one of the prevalent themes of such issues. I mean, just look at the whole dispute over the isle group between Japan and China earlier this year/last year. Lots of historical nationalist sentiments in there, too. Fortunately, France and Germany are letting history be history nowadays. As for where young kids get this mentality from - think about it yourself, you know the attitude of your father. Amp that up times 100 and assume that's all the input they get. There's a reason the Nazis ultimately settled for targeting kids first with "boot camps".
anarchistfish 09.19.14	yeah up to the age of 14 it's amazing/shameful how much I just mindlessly repeated the views of my parents. some people never seem to break out of it
anarchistfish 09.19.14	I was told to mistrust brown people, and muslims, and asians, and poor people And as for your second one, I was raised catholic
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	Well, the two most common reactions I've seen is either to blindly follow those views or to start "rebelling" at a certain point. (the degree obviously differs) I was pretty much a "punk" as a teenager without knowing much about punks or their "scene".
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	I didn't even know what homosexuals were until I was 14/15 when I befriended one. My step-father was pretty much an all around casual racist, particularly about people from the Netherlands (which is somewhat odd). My parents have both uttered statements that they believe immigrants may be trying to take over the country and that citizens are at a "disadvantage" nowadays. And I was raised by both old-school catholics and old-school protestants. This being a rural area certainly didn't help.
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	"aus is fairly fucking bad, the attitudes towards natives are really quite appalling even to this day" Oddly enough, Australia is one of the best-ranked countries in terms of civil liberties, gender equality and the likes which would definitely indicate it's better than some others in that regard. Admittedly, that doesn't gauge social tendencies of certain demographics.
anarchistfish 09.19.14	australians always seem to think their country is worse than it is not that this is unusual among MDAs, it's just that Australia tends to rank extremely highly on human development scales even by western standards
Wolfhorde 09.19.14	^ exactly what I was referring to, among western countries Australia is pretty much the dream in terms of all ranked standards. MDAs?
anarchistfish 09.19.14	"More Developed Area"
KrazyKris 09.19.14	Salmond just announced his resignation as Scotlands First Minister and SNP leader. Obviously quite thin-skinned.
FuneralMarch 09.19.14	William Wallace is turning over in his grave.
bakkermaarten007 09.20.14	Idlewild is (the band or whoever manages their FB page) are extremely disappointed in the outcome. Apparently it's the old Scots who mostly voted no. The young leaned more to the yes side. source:http://www.salon.com/2014/09/19/scotland%E2%80%99s_referendum_700_years_in_the_making_why_the_no_vote_was_still_a_stunning_watershed/
someguest 09.20.14	No shit, bakker. 16 year olds should not be allowed to vote.
anarchistfish 09.20.14	why not? they're just as clueless as everyone else
someguest 09.20.14	Why not? Because they don't know how their decisions will effect others yet. They're self-centered and shallow.
zaruyache 09.20.14	so is everyone else tho
Tunaboy45 09.20.14	You're from Newcastle Ali? I'm from Middlesbrough.
Artuma 09.20.14	some sweet stuff on the list but needs more skramz, mesa verde and archives are amazing
bakkermaarten007 09.20.14	"They're self-centered and shallow." As are lots of old people.
zakalwe 09.20.14	Judgements are made on experience and seeing the bigger picture without making rash decisions. I don't know many 16yr olds like that in all honesty.
FuneralMarch 09.20.14	"They're self-centered and shallow." "As are lots of old people." Yeah but the number of egocentric teens vastly outnumber the egocentric old people.
bakkermaarten007 09.20.14	"Judgements are made on experience and seeing the bigger picture without making rash decisions. I don't know many 16yr olds like that in all honesty." Old people have lower cognitive functions and therefore appeal to a smaller reference frame from their past (which is still 'fresh' in their memories). Anything that seems to different from that which they know is de facto more frightening to them than it is to younger people (who have a reference frame that is more up to date). It isn't a case of seeing the bigger picture (although that grows with growing older), but a hesitance caused by fear for the unknown. That is present in all people's minds (it's how the brain works, likes to keep a state of energy-efficient usage. Hence use tried and true concepts), but more in old people's.
bakkermaarten007 09.20.14	"Yeah but the number of egocentric teens vastly outnumber the egocentric old people." Maybe, maybe not. I'd think otherwise: this generation of globalized connected teens vastly blurs cultural and sociological differences, more than any generation before them. My argument for believing otherwise.
KrazyKris 09.20.14	~this generation of globalized connected teens vastly blurs cultural and sociological differences, more than any generation before them. My argument for believing otherwise.~ Not that I agree too much with the argument that teenagers are MORE self-centered and shallow than older people. Yet, while we've maybe reached a high-point when it comes to the things you mentioned, it is a matter of fact that the internet era and all that came with it hasn't really improved the level of empathy and self-understanding as a part of society.
bakkermaarten007 09.20.14	"it is a matter of fact that the internet era and all that came with it hasn't really improved the level of empathy and self-understanding as a part of society." Correct. We've traded in our deep social activity with many small interactions and the distance and self-cultivating aspects of these means (social media mostly) have made us lose touch with other persons and made us all the more narcissistic for it. Empathy becomes increasingly more a valuable immaterialistic good. Just look at all the articles flying around the internet on achieving a more empathic side. It's a pity.
KrazyKris 09.20.14	Pretty much, though I wouldn't phrase it that harsh or at least I'd lay the focus on something else. Cause I myself care deeply for a very small group of people, everyone else I'll show the door. So if you throw adjectives like misanthropic, self-centered or anti-social at me, I won't say you're wrong. But what is very important to me and what most people seem to have lost these days (they might have never had it) is self-reflection. Looking at yourself and your actions, trying to evaluate and justify them helps doing the right thing. That way, although I'm in no way a humanitarian (not an INFP definitely), I still manage to avoid getting in other people's way doing stupid things, etc. Maybe that is what's missing nowadays, people thinking about themselves. Appears to me they are somewhat uncomfortable with it, simply because it shows you how much crap there's going on in your life, but it should be more important than it is right now.
bakkermaarten007 09.20.14	"But what is very important to me and what most people seem to have lost these days (they might have never had it) is self-reflection. Looking at yourself and your actions, trying to evaluate and justify them helps doing the right thing." I think we'd get along haha. But that is not an easy thing to maintain. I once thought I'd stay that way forever, where I looked inward and led life according to my principles, wherever I could. But recently (8 months ago) I've started finding difficulties doing so. I guess life struck me and I need to resist conformity. =)
KrazyKris 09.20.14	Yeah, probably. Well, trying to do so isn't exactly healthy anyway, because constantly reminding yourself of your flaws and mistakes doesn't help in many ways. Also takes a certain amount of perfectionism and narcissism to even think you can live your life that way. Also: Death to conformity
Wolfhorde 09.20.14	o/ o\| HAIL TO DA MACKENZIE CLAN
Lowder91bird 09.21.14	I am a big fan of 8 and 4.
turnip90210 09.22.14	First three Biffy Clyro records, obviously. Korpse are freaking brilliant, the second album in particular. If you can take it a bit more extreme, Acatalepsy's EP is probably my favourite bit of modern death metal.
NorwichScene 09.22.14	Agreed, first 3 Biffy albums were awesome.
omnipanzer 09.24.14	Belle and Sebastian *nod