heyadam: Existentialism (facing the goddamn abyss)

heyadam 03.29.18	I obvi haven't dived extremely deep yet, as I haven't even read much Nietzsche (just started a biography, though), but what I have read has been super helpful. Any other philosophical movements that have been important to ya'll?
Trophycase 03.29.18	Define helpful. Pretty much stuck in a nihilist/post-modernist rut at this point and not really sure if there is anywhere to go from here. I never really had to wrestle with the question of "should you kill yourself in the face of the absurd" as that never seemed to make a lot of sense to me, though a friend of mine was grappling with it, especially after a long time coworker/mentor of his killed himself, but I think the idea that we have to imagine Sisyphus happy is a nice one.
heyadam 03.29.18	haha I guess "helpful" was a poor word choice in the context of existential despair and meaningless/numbness. I think for me, I haven't been able to fully make a jump into nihilism just because of how I was raised and me feeling some sort of meaning at least through some key friendships. The "kill yourself in the face of the absurd" idea resonated inasmuch as I could really "feel" the weight of meaninglessness, and if I dwelled on that too heavily than that proposed question of actually made a lot of sense to me. I'm curious, do you feel that you've just deconstructed everything to the point there is really nothing you feel is stable to begin building anything on? I forget exactly where the idea came from, but one of the problems of modernity that Kierkegaard and others at the time were discussing talked about the double-edged sword that skepticism and challenging your worldview until your left with nothing really is. Like, yeah, it's great to call out bullshit and grow, but at the same time it leaves you in a state of nothingness after awhile. I've been thinking through that idea a lot, but I'm struggling with building a coherent worldview lol.
zoso33 03.29.18	I'm glad to see you've dug into 'The Brothers Karamazov'. That and 'Crime and Punishment' are masterful works of existentialist literature that have not only captivated me but pushed me to find the inner beauty in suffering. If you are into Camus I would highly recommend 'The Plague'. It gives an almost chivalric meaning to enduring the absurdity of existence, has some of the most gripping moments of unabashed emotion (rare in Camus works) and ties quite well into the idea of Sisyphus not only enduring the harsh reality of this painful world, but overcoming the urge to give in to the absurdity due to a moral obligation to keep trying, to keep fighting for the good whatever the cost. Whatever the despair is in your life, keep going man. It is far too short a life as it is: engulf yourself in what beauty there is and laugh at the meaninglessness with the chip on your shoulder of knowing your purpose is to fight for happiness, to fight for the sake of the good.
Trophycase 03.29.18	"I'm curious, do you feel that you've just deconstructed everything to the point there is really nothing you feel is stable to begin building anything on?" Basically, yes. But it's a little more complicated than that. I'm at the point where I believe that no logical framework can actually capture "the truth" in the sense that axioms and first principles can always been questioned or re-examined (and also maybe in the sense that we cannot prove that logic itself is valid... but maybe that is circular, idk. I'm just not sure why it is that logic actually works). In my opinion it's impossible to capture the true nature of experience through words, ideas, or other abstractions, because such abstractions necessarily remove information (to give an example of this, imagine trying to give a perfect description of a movie, it would be literally impossible to describe the movie perfectly without recreating the entire movie in its actuality). So basically everything is bullshit and nothing we can think or talk about can fundamentally capture the nature of reality. I guess from there you have to reach deep inside and live out your individuality... or something
heyadam 03.29.18	@zoso: Brothers Karamazov has been destroying me. I've been reading it super slowly over a year and a half (I'm only half way through lol) but it's worth it to dwell on it over time. Alyosha had this line that I'm going to butcher that went something like: "I had done everything with complete sincerity. Next time I must be wise." It hit me because that really is how I lived my life, compeltely sincere, but lacking any sense of "wisdom." Thanks for the encouragment though dude, I definitely do what I can to find what beauty exists around me. @trophycase: I resonate with that a ton. Have you read any Derrida? I've scratched the surface with him too but his idea of the deconstruction of language, while certainly useful, also kind of feeds the idea of meaninglessness sometimes. It just seems like building any sort coherent way to see the world is ultimately pointless, or at the very least not that helpful. Yeah, the closest I've been to rebuilding any sort of worldview has been to just live authentically as myself. But I don't know wtf "myself" even is anymore, so that can be difficult. I've leaned into some other aspects of my spiritual roots that embraces the unknowability and mystery of reality, and that has helped a lot -- but that type of willful ignorance isn't for everybody haha.
heyadam 03.29.18	@socket lol maybe the fedora tipping neckbeards have some access to how to live a good life that I know nothing about
Deathconscious 03.29.18	God is gay
Beautiful 03.29.18	No, Jesus is gay, virgin, hung out with 12 men all day and enjoyed washing their feet.
Deathconscious 03.29.18	He was attracted to pans?
ScuroFantasma 03.29.18	I'm not really one for the existentialist deconstruction so much, but reading through the comments so far I understand where you're coming from even though I'm at odds with it. Actually what I've found most compelling and influential on my own views might turn a few heads or even be sneered at, but the philosophical aspects of psychoanalysis have been preoccupying me for a while and are somewhat foundational on my own branching out so to speak. But anyway, I'm curious what it is exaclty about the deconstruction of ideas and assumptions that has pushed you more towards nihilism and post-modernism? @heydam you mention this road has led you to view things as (at least somewhat) absurd or meaningless, how come?
heyadam 03.29.18	@scuro: I haven't really been pushed towards nihilism -- I definitely feel the absurdity and meaninglessness in a lot of things. I think those feelings come from not being grounded in anything. It's felt before like I have no center of gravity, so that's what I'm more referencing when I say that the existential deconstruction has made me face that meaninglessness. It's not that I view things completely as meaningless, it's that I haven't necessarily found the meaning that I believe exists (if that makes any sense) and nah, psychoanalysis is super dope. I know he's not taken super seriously in that field, but I appreciate a lot of what Jung wrote about. As a dude with mystic leanings myself, I identify with a lot of his ideas. I need to read a lot more Freud though just to get a basic comprehension
Papa Universe 03.29.18	don't think you can really associate Camus with existentialism that easily. he was more of an antireaction.
ScuroFantasma 03.29.18	That does make sense, in some ways I think the ideas I've been absorbing of late have been pointing in a somewhat similar direction, however for me the conclusions are very different. I suppose it's high time I read more existentialist work in order to comprehend the view better, but from what I have explored the resonance hasn't been great. No one is taken seriously in that field, Jung isn't particularly special in that regard haha. In fact he's often not as easily dismissed as most of the others. Admittedly I was of the same mindset for a long time, particularly when it comes to Freud, mostly because that's what I had been told all along - that his ideas were largely nonsense, important only because they paved the way or acted as the impetus for more legitimate inquiries and discoveries. It wasn't until I engaged with his ideas on my own or with the guide of more supportive authors that I saw their value.
heyadam 03.29.18	@papa: Yeah I guess I really shouldn’t label anybody as an “existentialist” since most of them rejected the label, but it was just for simplicity’s sake. Plus his ideas were definitely in line with the breadth of philosophy that head existential themes
heyadam 03.29.18	@scuro: I don’t think existentialist ideas (or any ideas in general) are comprehensive at all times in one’s life. For the sadboi, recently deconstructed, season of life I’m in, it’s a great starting framework for me to think about how to approach trying to reconstruct a worldview because I believe that I actually want to try and reconstruct haha.
ScuroFantasma 03.29.18	Where do you plan on beginning to rebuild? Does cogito ergo sum provide a foundation? (Forgive me if these are stupid questions but I'm just intrigued by the idea).
heyadam 03.29.18	a.) not stupid questions at all, b.) honestly I don’t know what that phrase is — you wanna expound on it?
ScuroFantasma 03.29.18	Yeah no worries, it's basically what René Descartes arrived at as the only proposition he felt he could be sure about: I think, therefore I am. He felt that because our senses and thoughts are flawed, he couldn't be certain of anything that he knew - except that he had to exist to think at all.
Divaman 03.29.18	Was very interested in existentialism during my college years, but more the artists than the philosophers. I remain a strong admirer of the plays of Samuel Beckett.
heyadam 03.29.18	@scuro haha Jesus, that’s philosophy 101 - I’m embarrassed. Anyways, I think I always just assumed my own existence as a starting place. My struggle, and why I identify with the existentialists, is how to exist. I think my reconstruction process starts with what it means to live authentically. I like Sartre’s thoughts on meaning — making resolute choices in the face of the unknown and ascribing meaning based off your choices. That can be a slippery slope to relativism which I’m not super into, but it’s fiving me a good starting point.
heyadam 03.29.18	@divaman — what do you find yourself gravitating more towards now? I’ll have to check out Samuel Beckett’s stuff. I’ve been wanting to venture more into the art side.
ScuroFantasma 03.29.18	Interesing, I appreciate you answering and indulging my curiosity. Hope it goes well for you (:
heyadam 03.29.18	@scuro no probs! Thanks for the small discussion. Hopefully I wasn’t just a victim of Socratic irony to weed out how much a n00b I am in general philosophy haha
ScuroFantasma 03.29.18	Haha, no not at all, trust me I'm no expert on this stuff. I just find it all interesting, especially when it comes to perspectives I don't share or I'm not very familiar with.
Demon of the Fall 03.29.18	I'm about to dumb this down even further... Is this about contemplating your own existence/place in the world using different philosophies/theories, or have I interpreted this all incorrectly?
heyadam 03.29.18	that's a succinct and basic summary for sure! I'd probably add "trying to find a reason to keep existing (or existing well) in the face of perceived meaninglessness," as that seems to boil down the existential struggle
heyadam 03.29.18	@scuro -- same though. feel free to drop anything great you're discovering through psychoanalysis in my shoutbox if you ever wanna chat about it. I'm not just saying this because you've said you are interested in it, but that's an area of study I've always wanted to dive into but have a very basic introduction to thanks to my undergrad Psychology major haha.
guitarded_chuck 03.29.18	Dostoevsky is my favorite author. Just got Demons in the mail to read next after I'm done what I'm reading now, super stoked haven't actually read something by him in over a year. I've also read some Camus and Sartre. Nietzsche too, though he didn't consider himself an existentialist AFAIK, he is one IMO. Now that I think of it Camus didn't either pretty sure but again I'd say he was too. Maybe more of a Stoic.
heyadam 03.29.18	Dostoevsky is humbling because he's made me realize how full of shit I am with my pseudo-intellectual musings. Like, I used to pride myself internally on being "deeper" than most of the people around me, but it was a sham lol. Brothers Karamazov is shaping up to be my favorite piece of literature ever. I just resonate with it way too much right now. What initially drew you to him and the other existential writers?
ScuroFantasma 03.29.18	@heyadam will do man, I'm certainly down to continue this.
guitarded_chuck 03.29.18	Not sure what the motivation was specifically other than wanting to read some classic lit. Started reading about FD online, decided to get Crime and Punishment, was my favorite book ever (still is), started learning more about existentialism/philosophy in general, and just kind of went down the rabbit hole with it. Existentialism and probably even more-so stoicism have played a huge role in me becoming a more at-peace and rational person 100% and anyone who knows me personally knows I never shut up about it. =]
heyadam 03.29.18	@guitarded_chuck haha, intersting! I never shut up about existentialism at this point, and I started looking into stoicism to maybe provide insight to help me develop equanimity but saw some people use the ideas of stoicism to suppress their emotions rather than just transcend them, and so I went on more of the meditation route to try and get what I was looking for in stoicism. I didn't dive too deep, mind you, so that'll be an area I'd like to understand more as well.
guitarded_chuck 03.29.18	Yeah stoicism is more about rationalizing one's anxieties on a real level and learning to let go and be mindful as opposed to suppression. Separating all concerns into two categories, things in your control, things out of your control. It is irrational to feel like one can change anything that is out of one's control, and so in that sense there is no reason to do anything but let go and let those things just happen. Then for things in your control, it's about dealing with them mindfully, not feeling despair for all events that lead up to it happening now, not showing concern for the future, but centering yourself and seeing what the right move is right now. Executing this philosophy (stoicism) in one's life reduces anxiety an exorbitant amount at least in my experience, again so long as one deals with it on a real rational level rather than purely ignoring things / suppressing. And for sure meditation goes hand in hand with stoicism in terms of the letting go of anxiety 100%. I haven't been meditating lately but I've been going to yoga and it has the same effects on me. It doesn't matter how irritable or anxious I am coming into a session, you have no choice but to end up focusing on the present during an intense yoga session and by the end of it I feel just so much more relaxed, it never ceases to amaze me.
guitarded_chuck 03.29.18	I think existentialism is useful most for people that are like has been mentioned here sort of falling into the vacuum of a mental trap of nihilism, something I've thankfully never really fell into myself but seems to growing among people in society in general and so I think it's super important these days to have these discussions and recommend people read about it. The last time culture as a whole became ultra-nihilistic was in the 20s and 30s and we know what happened then. People need to stop falling for dogmas and forming opposing teams filled with hate and take responsibility for their own actions and create something positive out of their short period of time existing in this plane of reality. Think for yourself for fuck sakes. Yes extra emphasis necessary on that point. To give up in itself is a waste of life, to fill the void with the dogmatic principals of some ideology is even worse. Do something positive with your life. (not talking to you or anyone specifically here ofc, just people in general)
heyadam 03.29.18	Nah for sure, I’m totally with you there haha. For me existentialism definitely stopped me from going into nihilism and helped me grab hold of my own agency. I honestly think throughout my life I’ve had such low self-esteem that it really made it difficult to be confident in my own decisions or even made it hard to be proactive in my own decision making. For the past five years or so I’ve definitely developed more of an ability to make resolute decisions. In some sense, the fear of the unknown is always lingering there, but my meditations on existentialist ideas has really helped me make decisions in light of that anyways. Meditation itself is something I’m trying to get better at because I too always notice how well it works to center me and calm me down. I understand what you mean about giving up being a waste of life, but I think that’s the cycle for sure that people are perpetually caught in. I think a lot of people that fall into that sort of despair (myself included) have trouble reconciling the absurdity of trying to keep persevering when at some points it seems our lives are meaningless. I don’t find myself in that headspace very often, if at all anymore, but I totally understand why people feel that strongly.
guitarded_chuck 03.29.18	For sure. The meaningless of life is something that people take too far in terms of thinking that there are no repercussions for one's actions whatsoever and therefore rationalize internally that it is moral to just take value from their neighbor should it increase their immediate security. That's a big reason why I loved Crime and Punishment so much as Dostoevsky demonstrates how in fact life is not meaningless and a sort of law of karma does exist in society at least insofar as we are always going to be connected as a culture. He does this by (spoiler alert here I suppose) showing that the nihilistic Raskolnikov rationalizes that it is perfectly moral to not only steal valuable possessions from an undeniably immoral individual, but to actually go so far as murdering them and removing them from society such that they can't cause further harm. He realizes very quickly that he was wrong to think such an act was moral for two reasons, A) the fact that his peers deem the act immoral and such will punish him for it (the law) B) the guilt he feels. Perhaps life ends, perhaps there is no God, perhaps every single action you commit in this life will be forgotten within 100 years of your death, but to lead a fulfilling happy life while you do exist the imperative is on the individual to act morally. Acting immoral to your neighbor will most times not end well for you, be it legally or internally/psychologically/spiritually. And in that sense, life is NOT meaningless, and nihilism is an invalid philosophy.
heyadam 03.29.18	Yeah honestly I sincerely doubt the majority of people that despair thatvlife is meaningless actually believe life is meaningless. You can kind of tell by people’s actions (even positive ones). For me it was never a complete grapple with meaninglessness, it was more of a recognizing my feelings that things were moving in a meaningless direction, but that I believed life wasn’t so j fact inherently meaningless. Therein came Kierkegaard and Sartre with the whole “live authentically in the face of those feelings — it helped me start to see what I was ignoring, namely the beautiful parts of existence, that, like you said, seem to not be contingent on any of the bigger questions that we’ll have no way of knowing.
guitarded_chuck 03.29.18	Yeah I see what you mean. I felt that way too a bit at times for sure.
AsleepInTheBack 03.29.18	Jordan Peterson has a bunch of videos up that touch upon a lot of these topics in a very accessible (albeit simplified) manner, for anyone short of time or just wanting to dip into the massive pool of literature on the area. He's put up good shit on Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Hume etc., and his stuff on Archetypes is pretty interesting
rellik009 02.21.20	late bump
rellik009 02.21.20	Ah, nihilism. There are those who take it as an excuse to do jack shit, and there are those who, since they know life does not matter, do everything they can to render it meaningful.
heyadam 02.21.20	funny this surfaced two years later — actually just started a dive into Kierkegaard again this past week.
50iL 02.21.20	Kierkegaard is absurdist, though, much like Camus. Camus fought his entire life certain prominent existentialist and nihilist notions, explaining his falling out with Sartre. I agree with the vast majority of Camus' assertions. "Ah, nihilism. There are those who take it as an excuse to do jack shit, and there are those who, since they know life does not matter, do everything they can to render it meaningful." I see what you mean, but uhh... I disagree. Yeah.
heyadam 02.21.20	I think in retrospect for my own life I don’t think I can follow Camus quite as far as I can follow SK, but I appreciate his work all the same. I’ve also spent a ton of less time with Camus to be fair though - I think I couldn’t (so far) practically find a way to defiantly push my boulder up the hill with a smile lol
rellik009 02.21.20	oooh nice I managed to trigger someone with a very vague statement another point for me
rellik009 02.21.20	these books look like they're really worth something though, I need to check them out.
50iL 02.21.20	@heyadam Oh yeah, I see that. I've had no option but to identify myself w/ Camus because of my atheism. It's taken me years to derive happiness from meaningless pain, but it has been infinitely rewarding. @rellik For sure! Existentialist essays are great, but if you want to be entertained definitely check some plays/theatre. Sartre's plays are fantastic and poignant.
Bedex 02.21.20	l'enfer c'est les autres aye
rellik009 02.21.20	oh je vois qu'on est apte en existentialisme dans les autres langues
Bedex 02.21.20	oui monsieur