Spec: Workingmen Of All Countries Unite!

Spec 01.20.17	redistribute oat
BallsToTheWall 01.20.17	They must procure their oats elsewhere, brother.
zakalwe 01.20.17	We still have the strongest voice.
Spec 01.20.17	Break your chains brother, we must take back the oats that are rightfully ours.
Sinternet 01.20.17	this but unironically
Spec 01.20.17	Was also reading marx today so yea.
Spec 01.20.17	ABOLISH PRIVATE PROPERTY SEIZE THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION it's time brothers and sisters
SandwichBubble 01.20.17	Maybe tomorrow
Spec 01.20.17	Sad!
Sinternet 01.20.17	im coming for that toothbrush whitey
Spec 01.20.17	Actually it's a response from a meme involving pigs and oats.
Sinternet 01.20.17	Of course, way better to have something that shakes up the neoliberal centrist bullshit that seems to have been normalised and propagandised for the last 50 years, but doesn't distract from the fact that a right-wing populist who has at times shown fascist/authoritarian tendencies has the potential to do a lot of damage. At least though it gives us a chance to organise and vocally oppose it.
Spec 01.20.17	Sach do you live your entire life desperately trying to start arguments on the internet?
Sinternet 01.20.17	yep i agree, and i'm glad to see someone run on an anti-globalist campaign, but my issue is whether he truly believes in that or if he was just saying that for votes and to appeal to anti-establishment sentiments. Time will tell, left just needs to get organised in preparation for 2020 and stop all the infighting, the working class needs to be represented and i'll be damned if this guy is gonna do it.
BallsToTheWall 01.20.17	THEY TOOK ERRRRR OATTTTTTS #SUCKITMODPACK
ZippaThaRippa 01.20.17	'this but unironically' this but unironically
731 01.21.17	most of what accounts for the mainstream left has been drifting towards wishy washy centrism (at best) and corporatist friendly policies since at least the 80s. partisanship and class identity were jettisoned in favour of strategising for success in the short term by appealing to as many people as possible. in the process they stripped their parties of nearly any tangible reason to vote for them. now shit's blowing up in their faces because right wing demagogues at least try to speak to working class fears
Spec 01.21.17	Jesus fucking christ the list is now a wall of text. Modpack for least fun/interesting user of 2017.
ArsMoriendi 01.21.17	I'm already over the election. I'm going to wait until Trump tries to pass a bill I don't like before I'm up in arms again.
Illoomorpheme 01.21.17	It seems we're going to have a good old proletariat war being fought in these next 4 years. I almost want to thank Trump for being so brazenly corrupt, maybe people may see the the state of the country as it actually is and not through the eyes of 'work hard and you make money' of the 1950's, but that might be a bit too hopeful.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	Ars being reasonable. I like it.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	"It seems we're going to have a good old proletariat war being fought in these next 4 years. I almost want to thank Trump for being so brazenly corrupt, maybe people may see the the state of the country as it actually is and not through the eyes of 'work hard and you make money' of the 1950's, but that might be a bit too hopeful." Sput political opinions are always hilarious.
Illoomorpheme 01.21.17	"Sput political opinions are always hilarious." Insightful, thanks.
Trundle 01.21.17	list needs Rush's s/t
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	I mean you use the word proletariat unsarcastically so yeah I'm not gonna talk to you. Sorry.
Illoomorpheme 01.21.17	Woah dude I thought we were friends here. If you break up with me I don't think I'll be able to bear it.
MO 01.21.17	fuck communism. i'm sorry but do you even know what happened under communism in soviet russia? a complete fuck you to having that ever happen again.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	I mean I'll still fuck you and take you out to dinner but I'm just not gonna talk politics with you.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	You already know all my politics. Yours, however, are more amorphous.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	I mean, I'd say based on what you know of me and how smart you are you could guess my position on anything with probably 90% or greater accuracy.
Friday13th 01.21.17	haha have fun smashing starbucks windows ya marxists. I don't think your hipster progressive friends are gonna take kindly to you disrupting their way of life!
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	Not if they're based on a consistent moral driving force. It's about weighting certain principles above others.
Relinquished 01.21.17	at least he has points
Illoomorpheme 01.21.17	Soviet Communism wasn't even communism, it was State Capitalism. The entire concept of communism is that every man reaps the direct fruits of his labor, not some infinitesimal slice of a pie that the owner of a company decides. Capitalism is the system in where people work for other people i.e the owners of a company, and not for themselves or society at large. In Soviet Russia this is exactly what happened, the government, or state, owned all of the capital just as the 8 richest people in the world are as rich as the other 3.6 Billion (true fact). Soviet Communism was a complete bastardization of the concept, and Marx would roll over in his grave at how the Fascist Stalin ruled with an iron fist. True communism and Socialism give the means of production to the workers themselves, ie the miners who mine the metal get a fair share of what they dig up, and not a pittance for their labor as happens in Capitalism where the owner soaks in the effort of other people. Hell, modern capitalism also works on slavery, how do you think all of our toys, technology, and clothes are made? Well paid workers in the US with union representation? No, they're all manufactures overseas by children in factories where they have to string up nets outside to prevent daily suicide attempts off of the roofs. US production is at an all time high, and some people may say that that's capitalism at work, and they'd be right; however wages have stagnated and modern adults are the first generation that have it worse than the last. Most of this is due to technological advancements in production and industry, which cut millions of people out of jobs. In time this will only get worse and people will realize that capitalism is not the solution for post modern societies, and it never has been, but its true effects have been kept under wraps for so long by propaganda, and the selling of the 'American Dream'; even though for many, it's not even possible.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	lmao
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	Brilliant analysis.
MO 01.21.17	"The entire concept of communism is that every man reaps the direct fruits of his labor, not some infinitesimal slice of a pie that the owner of a company decides." while I respect the idea of it as a sort of utopia, it will just never ever happen. having 100% equality is impossible imo because there will always be people who want to exceed more than someone else. not everyone is going to be super content just doing their fair share and living off that. also about that not being true communism and that Marx would roll over in his grave? well if that's what it's intentions bred (stalinism), then I wouldn't want to see how many more hundreds of millions would have to be killed in order to get it right. no thanks
Illoomorpheme 01.21.17	"while I respect the idea of it as a sort of utopia, it will just never ever happen. having 100% equality is impossible imo because there will always be people who want to exceed more than someone else. not everyone is going to be super content just doing their fair share and living off that." I wholeheartedly agree that achieving this would be incredibly difficult, but I truly believe that some of this thought it due to Capitalism itself. In America children are raised with the idea that if they work hard enough that they will succeed, but what isn't taught (but that is learned through society) is that you will have to step on a lot of toes to get there. Big business is a dog eat dog world, and in order to 'truly succeed' under capitalism, you have to fuck over the guy next to you. Humans are innately social and community creatures, this is a verifiable fact. The problem isn't that we're naturally greedy, but that we're naturally predisposed to being greedy, ie humans are the world's best opportunists. "well if that's what it's intentions bred, then I wouldn't want to see how many more hundreds of millions would have to be killed in order to get it right. no thanks" As far as this is concerned I also agree. I'm not advocating for a bloody uprising, most people just fundamentally don't understand that there are so many more economic systems out there that can possibly work, and that Capitalism isn't the be all and all of modern systems. “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited worker but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 01.21.17	lmao
SharkTooth 01.21.17	taxation is theft
YetAnotherBrick 01.21.17	truth illoomorpheme
MO 01.21.17	top notch contribution as usual ghost good points Illoomorpheme "most people just fundamentally don't understand that there are so many more economic systems out there that can possibly work" definitely agree, capitalism has shown what happens when you push hard to one extreme. it's brought lots of utility but also loads of destruction though still I just think it is a system that is so far ingrained in people's minds that simply letting it go for a more equal society is almost never going to happen
TheSpaceMan 01.21.17	ahhh capitalism and profit motive, what everybody thinks they hate but actually take for granted literally every second of their lives
chemicalmarriage 01.21.17	I've got this all figured out but nothings going to change you're all so smart what a god damn waste of time where's my beer
Spec 01.21.17	capitalism is extra lame tbh
TheSpaceMan 01.21.17	pretty chill tbh
Spec 01.22.17	bro jam godspeed
GuanoBumbershoot 01.22.17	I'd say it's pretty obvious that Marx had some great ideas and concepts, and it's hard to dispute that he gave great contributions to the understanding of economics. That aside, it's even more obvious that every major example of communism we've seen has lead to disastrous results. The combined death tolls dwarf the Holocaust - which most still point to as the greatest example of state-sponsored terror - and cannot be ignored. You shouldn't be able to be well read on the practical use of communist ideal, and still be able to hold it as a realistic ideal yourself. It's true that every example of a state striving for communism that I can think of have mostly been bastardized/corrupt, but I don't think you can read The Gulag Archipelago, and still have any faith that humans can implement a good system with communism as it's end goal.
Emim 01.22.17	All governments suck because people suck. But hey, let's try communism again. Maybe it'll work this time.
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	capitalism encourages good product, choice in purchase and work, and success based on individual people's allocation of what holds value
Spec 01.22.17	i'll be honest, arguing about politics on sputnik doesn't interest me at all i can't imagine typing a wall of text trying to prove someone on this site wrong
ArsMoriendi 01.22.17	Donald Duck is president, nothing we can do Oh well
GuanoBumbershoot 01.22.17	"lotta headass bumbahclot bullshit in there" Why's that?
GuanoBumbershoot 01.22.17	"this is basically distilled ignorance. so ignorant that i cannot even tell if it's wilful or not." Maybe I didn't word myself well enough, or add enough detail. I don't know exactly what it is you have issue with, but I'm definitely willing to be proven ignorant.
Relinquished 01.22.17	boom
worthlessscab 01.22.17	systems that don't work with human behaviour fail disastrously. ideally it should be able to function on it's own
Friday13th 01.22.17	"point me to an example of a communist economy that did actually implement the dismantling of religion and 'the family unit'" Marx's original vision makes Stalin look like a saint. All theories by looney old men discontent with the failures thy made of themselves anyhow. I suggest downloading Thr Wealth of Nations on pdf for a non-fiction read evidenced by the iphone in your hand.
Friday13th 01.22.17	apparently they are
Friday13th 01.22.17	Using the logic of bad effects only when convenient I see.
Friday13th 01.22.17	but they do lol as if anything humans do is inate
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	You're tipping dangerously towards lambs style of arguing, Sach I jest obv
Friday13th 01.22.17	lol what
Friday13th 01.22.17	what's your insane theoretical definition of human behavior then?
Snake. 01.22.17	god damn it i thought we were done with the political threads
Friday13th 01.22.17	and in that fluid mix of instincts and shit there are family units. And since humans have used family units since recorded history than bingo...it's behavior by humans
YakNips 01.22.17	godspeed aren't commies you cuck
Friday13th 01.22.17	I'm well aware of that. You said family units aren't human behavior and now you're backtracking. The point is you have no idea what human behavior would be by your own logic and admission that we've never set up the proper marxist conditioning.
worthlessscab 01.22.17	"religion and the construct of the family unit are not "human behaviour"" I was thinking more along the lines of it requiring mainly force to be sustained. You can argue that religion is a result of humans' self awareness, mainly that of our own mortality, and family unit is only logical to take care of your offspring. Why is it we care, why is it we reproduce? If we didn't we wouldn't be here so the ones before us did. Why? - biological drive though I don't know how human behaviour works apart from the basic "seek pleasure, avoid pain".
Spec 01.22.17	godspeed are pretty left if you check out the artwork and stuff in their vinyls
Friday13th 01.22.17	migosh, madpack. Human behavior is things humans do. You keep jumping back and forth between inate behavior and conditioned behavior and then saying I'm wrong for saying family unit is a human behavior. Apes do it, we do it...it's behavior by humans.
Friday13th 01.22.17	I'm being broad and general which is perfectly reasonable. At least it's observable. Now let me pick apart your reductionist definition. There has been no moment in time where conditioning from external forces has not been a factor, so for you to be parsing about what is inate is all bs because you don't know how humans would react in every conditioning scenario and what would be constant. I'd like your short list of "human behavior" and I'll have fun picking it apart by changing every minutae of the environment.
YakNips 01.22.17	i own all their records spec, i'm 99% sure they're anarchists which is antithetical to communism
Friday13th 01.22.17	Never said any of those things were innate, just observable behaviors. Still waiting for your list of "true" behaviors.
YakNips 01.22.17	okay and you're still a psuedo-intellectual hack
Spec 01.22.17	"they're anarchists which is antithetical to communism" bruh
Friday13th 01.22.17	Acceptable list, modpack. I could probably find a flaw in #2 with enough change to the earth's environment but who cares. Anyways, just wanted to point out that's a pretty small list and it's ridiculous that you expected I was following your definition of human behavior from the start.
YakNips 01.22.17	please explain to me cohrently how communism can be achieved and maintained along with anarchy
YakNips 01.22.17	also snox is a lefty sach, i seriously doubt we agree on politics
Spec 01.22.17	what are snoxalls political views?
YakNips 01.22.17	lol i wasn't aware of that thanks for bringing it to my attention and regarding anarchy? i couldn't paint golden angels, anatomy of the state, and some of conquest of bread but i hated it
Storm In A Teacup 01.22.17	Sad!
YakNips 01.22.17	not nearly as much, i'm no expert on economics. are you majoring in philosophy or econ?
TVC15 01.22.17	Thread tl;dr but seeing the inclusion of Refused made me think Socialism =/= Communism
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	'say what you want about Donald, I'm just glad we now have a classy dignified First Lady instead of that ape in heels.' lmao dude you got to be self aware at this point
YakNips 01.22.17	"communism is the goal of socialism" -vladimir lenin
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	anarchy would never work just because in that situation, someone/some group with power would step up and make rules because there are no rules stopping them to do so
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	its sorta a cyclical thing then, huh? like an ice age of sorts
YakNips 01.22.17	which is exactly why we need a night-watchman state and not a complete abolition of government
YakNips 01.22.17	i think i'm just disagreeing with you. i don't like authoritarians
Friday13th 01.22.17	"The main (and arguably only) difference between communism and socialism are the means by which the goals are attained." Well we agree there, mod.
Mephistopheles 01.22.17	anarchy can work in virtual reality and if we reach a point before that where the internet is absolutely free and accessible we can have that earlier
Friday13th 01.22.17	You could even go as far as calling the ruling body...human behavior ;)
Friday13th 01.22.17	damn gotta jam that bjork song
YakNips 01.22.17	lol because the state is inevitable everyone should be as miserable as you?
YakNips 01.22.17	exactly the opposite. i'm talking about the standard of living in socialist and communist countries
Spec 01.22.17	"say what you want about Donald, I'm just glad we now have a classy dignified First Lady instead of that ape in heels." Christ dude are you for real?
YakNips 01.22.17	okay sinternet sr. you got me, i often wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat in the midst of a nightmare about statism
YakNips 01.22.17	lol true but i still just can't get on board with marxism on a fundamental level, do u know of any books that could possibly change my mind?
Kompys2000 01.22.17	"Capitalism is the worst economic system in the world. Except of course for all the other ones." IDK if I really agree with this quote but it's some food for thought Also jam Dead Kennedys you fucking squares
Sinternet 01.22.17	nah sach i agree with most of what you said, or at least the ones in which i have a good enough understanding of to formulate an opinion i think the number one issue with communism itself is how easily the seizing of the state needed to transition between capitalism and communism can result in authoritarian power grabs, i don't know how easily that can be counteracted as when there is an opportunity for that kind of power a lot of people would jump on it. to say though that communism has always failed is kind of an iffy point. it's true that ultimately the USSR failed, but up until stalin life was greatly improving for the average citizen, the same as can be observed in the formative years of nearly all communist societies (and indeed after the fall of the USSR, standards of living for the average russian citizen fell). What never happened in the USSR was the transition between state capitalism and communism, as the state ultimately replaced the corporation and the managerial class reaping the profits of the worker's labour, and the workers never took control of the means of production. And indeed, it was because of the ability of a select few to take that power and use it for their own purposes. Possibly one of the reasons for the lack of free elections in many communist countries was the fear of a transition back to capitalism which then lead to leaders never being challenged and becoming authoritarian. Idk im just hypothesising badly here but this isn't even adding in the massive issue of foreign influence (mostly from the CIA but also historically from the Soviets).
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	When you say life improved for the average citizen, can you provide me a source to that? Unless you would have considered the avg citizen at that time to be in strict poverty I have a hard time believing that. I don't know alot about the USSR's history but I'd argue there was a huge increase in standard of living across the globe, and possibly more so for capitalist models. With war churning huge economic growth incentive and technology racing faster then ever since the industrial revolution, it's hard to have a controlled environment to say communism was the vaeiable tied to the increase of standard of living.
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	I remember hearing stories from my relatives as a little kid where they'd wait in line for food for hours in a communist transition, only to be turned down because supplies ran out before half the line had moved along. My grandmother's wedding ring was seized, and my great grandfather who was a doctor went from being successful after investing his money in that study only to live in basic poverty. And these are accounts from all over the world, from Cuba (my mom's side) to Poland (Dad side). Sure it's anecdotes but that's enough to influence my perception on it, ya know?
Friday13th 01.22.17	Yeah Sinternet, I assume killing the royal family and seizing the property of the rich will "greatly improve" the life of the average citizen in the short term. But after the party is over and you have to get to work, everything goes down the shitter. Let's not forget Lenin's famous quote about taking one step back before taking two steps forward. Likely excuse. Communist Russia was tanking before Stalin took over. No CIA intervention needed.
TheSpaceMan 01.22.17	Chinternet is no where to be found... much like his _____