Polyethylene: omfg vegans tho!!!!

Polyethylene 09.05.16	cue the seething hatred
spookynewghostfriend 09.05.16	in b4 crossfit memes
Artuma 09.05.16	dennis lyxzén bro
Calc 09.05.16	does wearing clothes made by animals count as whatever vegans are trying to stand for? cuz like they come from animals
Snake. 09.05.16	tim mcilraith?
Polyethylene 09.05.16	@Calc outside of food there doesn't seem to be so much consensus. Personally I wear wool, but don't buy anything made of leather (unless it is secondhand)
CrimsonLies 09.05.16	Vegans aren't really better for the environment though
Sinternet 09.05.16	list needs moby
Polyethylene 09.05.16	Is that a reference to the soy industry, Crims? Because 85% of soy goes towards feeding farm animals. If you want numbers, look at this mayb http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/07/veganism-and-the-environment.jpg
Calc 09.05.16	that picking and choosing is what bothers me personally poly but you do you boo boo.
zakalwe 09.05.16	I tried going veggie for ethical and health reasons but lasted about 20mins. Shameful really.
SCREAM! 09.05.16	"but don't buy anything made of leather (unless it is secondhand) " does that mean you can eat leftover steak?
Polyethylene 09.05.16	@Calc would you prefer a dogmatic creed? I think some wiggle room in things like clothes makes for a more accessible movement. Some things are currently much harder to accomplish, like clothes or many medicines still containing animal products. I guess my view is to cut those products out, where and when it is feasible to do so. In food, certainly, I've found it very easy
CaimanJesus 09.05.16	Weinman and wilson from the dillinger escape plan are vegans
porcupinetheater 09.05.16	I've been veggie for a spell now, don't think I'd be able to commit to vegan, though
BallsDeep 09.05.16	Not a huge fan of veggies so I would literally die from malnutrition if I were to go vegan
CaimanJesus 09.05.16	Geezer Butler and Kurt Ballou are too
smaugman 09.05.16	man, do hamburgers taste nice =)
porcupinetheater 09.05.16	So is Ben Weinman
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	being vegan for ethical purpose is stupid as fuck. you can eat ethically produced animal products instead of factory shit. its not like the act of eating meat is inherently wrong (and if you think it is, as i know people who do, i will fuck you up with logic lets go right now), its just the way we go about it that is. plus being vegan for enviromental reasons is also stupid because even if you ignore the quantities that are used to feed livestock (and we aren't just talking soy here) vegetarian diets are still terrible for the environment thanks to refrigeration, transportation, packaging, and cooking. beef is by far the worst for the environment but all things considered lots of plant products rank closely to chicken. basically all the reasons most people decide to be vegan are stupid. and many people have no idea HOW to be vegan and remain healthy. it's hard. the only good reason to be vegan is if you actually know anything about vegan food and have done your research and just want to have a healthy, modest, and inexpensive diet. its soosososososo cheap. like 75% of my diet is Vegan because I have a friend who runs a vegan food company and I like to support him. He knows about all the nutritional aspects and how to balance vegan foods properly. The stuff is healthy and its amazing cheap brain food. I eat his kimchi for breakfast every morning at work which cuts out any bread products that will fuck up your brain for the day and make you slow and stupid. Kimchi wakes you the fuck up and sharpens your brain. Then I eat rice and vegan curries and other vegan mush for lunch. stuff like cheese can fuck up your day too. eating vegan is great for that 9 to 5 life. then you can go home and eat meat and whatever the fuck else you want and if you are worried about ethics then just dont be an asshole and buy shit factory meat and if you are worried about the environment don't eat beef.
Polyethylene 09.05.16	@zak chin up buddy, at least you can say you gave it your all ;] @SCREAM! haha, I suppose if I went out for dinner with the missus and she didn't finish, sure, I wouldn't be increasing demand by finishing it off. Somehow, I'm perfectly happy with whatever I've been eating. @BallsDeep damn, I guess I'm lucky in that I love vegetables. Not that that's all I eat by any means
zakalwe 09.05.16	@potsy I bet you eat his kimchi for brekkie ya saucy sod.
BallsToTheWall 09.05.16	Had 4 hamburgers today. God damn were they good.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"I tried going veggie for ethical and health reasons but lasted about 20mins. Shameful really." you should be proud, you tripled your sexual record for going bareback
smaugman 09.05.16	had two :'(
zakalwe 09.05.16	Pffft more like tenfold
porcupinetheater 09.05.16	How the fuck do you eat 4 hamburgers in one day?
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	also if you are REALLY worried about the environment the only way you can eat without being terrible is to basically grow your own veggies in your backyard and eat them raw fresh out of the ground. have fun.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"How the fuck do you eat 4 hamburgers in one day?" with your mouth. insanely easy really.
BallsDeep 09.05.16	I had a friend that went vegan specifically because she disagreed with the way the livestock is killed, she thought it was inhumane to use the stun gun/CO2/throat slit method. I had to remind her how much more animals suffer in the wild when left to die natural deaths. How they're held and treated in the lead up to their death is another story, but I'm not about to convert to veganism because of it. Still waiting on that artificial meat to be mass produced and marketed though and I don't see why anyone should have a problem with it.
torts 09.05.16	"How the fuck do you eat 4 hamburgers in one day?" last tuesday i think it was, i downed 5 in a sitting. not hard
smaugman 09.05.16	reducing co2 emission shouldn't even be priority No.1. the world needs to focus on developing better technology to take full use of all energy, developing machines that can produce freshwater from sea water at a high rate. also, protecting wild life and endangered species is very important
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	Eating plants don't make you more innocent than someone who eats meat. We're still eating living things. Time to have some meat and potatoes.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	because its also probably terrible for the environment idnno everything we do is shitty for the environment the ironic thing tho is that people who think they care about the environment for the environments sake are fooling themselves. they care about the environment for humanities sake. for selfish purposes in which we can help the earth continue to sustain our cancerous asses. at the end of the day, once we've fully raped the earth, we all die and earth will replenish and move on. it doesn't give a fuck.
BenThatsMyJamin 09.05.16	of course Thom Yorke is a vegan lmao
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"Eating plants don't make you more innocent than someone who eats meat. We're still eating living things." lol this is the most retarded thing ive ever read in my entire life, nice.
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	I think when the day comes Earth's resources are depleted, we'll be eating ourselves, and then we'll die.
zakalwe 09.05.16	Yeah the Earth is definitely a tough old girl and it will fight back if we take the piss.
smaugman 09.05.16	i'd like to gather a bunch of vegans in a room and just look at the average vegan person
smaugman 09.05.16	"I think when the day comes Earth's resources are depleted, we'll be eating ourselves, and then we'll die." ?????
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	the average vegan person probably hasn't had their period in like 8 months and is pretending they aren't slowly withering away and dying
ShinjiIkari 09.05.16	"Eating plants don't make you more innocent than someone who eats meat. We're still eating living things." "I think when the day comes Earth's resources are depleted, we'll be eating ourselves, and then we'll die." this thread is gold already
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	@smaugman Those goddam cannibal tribes do it so I can see it happeneing.
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	sup ALA
smaugman 09.05.16	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTog_NtCEio potato quality but still
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	is this miketunney guy a troll or is he actually full on retarded
Keyblade 09.05.16	"@Calc outside of food there doesn't seem to be so much consensus. Personally I wear wool, but don't buy anything made of leather (unless it is secondhand)" such an odd double standard. I won't sustain myself with animals, but I'll wear them as clothing?
smaugman 09.05.16	mike, we won't run out of resources for a long, long time. tho we must become better at recycling. and wut?? food will be around forever
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	@LordePots if you still take me seriously to this day, then you've got a lot of learning to do mate.
smaugman 09.05.16	miketunney is christian doom day lunatic confirmed
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"such an odd double standard. I won't sustain myself with animals, but I'll wear them as clothing?" sounds like some illogical ascetic jainism "i wont light this fire because it will murder innocent fire sprites and i will go to hell but hey if you light this fire and go to hell i will gladly reap the benefits and use this fire"
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"@LordePots if you still take me seriously to this day, then you've got a lot of learning to do mate." you say "to this day" like i've literally ever noticed you before
BenThatsMyJamin 09.05.16	"tough old girl" Zak I know ur old but are u an actual ww2 vet??
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	@LordePorts if that's the case, I'm surprised but ok.
zakalwe 09.05.16	Fuck ethics I'm off to harpoon a blue whale cos I need a fuck off bar of soap.
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	You know what isn't bad for the environment? SOME GODDAM METAL YO
BallsDeep 09.05.16	Its a shame the moon is a small, cold, dead earth. Imagine having a parallel Earth (or even a planet capable of sustaining life) next door so we could eventually share the load between em. The load being our 'cancerous asses'. A friend the other day were discussing whether this is the way everything was intended to be - hundreds of millions of years of evolution led to this point where there was one completely dominant species that uses the natural resources and other animals to its personal gain. Who knows what the outcome will be, and I'm not saying it's right what we're doing but that's one way of looking at it.
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	Balls is going deep yo
ArsMoriendi 09.05.16	Supermeat
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	dun dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuuuuun
DoofusWainwright 09.05.16	Balls surely we'd treat the second planet equally badly
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	Exodus once said in a song that "the world's a cesspit or puke and piss and dogshit."
GmemberKills 09.05.16	Can't say im vegan, but i stay away from all pork and red meat. They just have too much shit in em and every time i eat some it just makes me feel tired and sluggish. I don't miss them either, I've found when you quit a certain type of food you usually end up discovering stuff you've never had before that is just as good, if not better.
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	if chicken was the only meat ever made, i wouldnt care
CrimsonLies 09.05.16	http://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/ Vegan isn't the best diet in terms of long sustainability for the human race. Considering there are constantly more people who need to eat, this becomes more apparent. The article talks about land efficiency. http://www.sciencealert.com/vegetarian-and-healthy-diets-may-actually-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/18/being-a-vegetarian-might-make-you-feel-environmentally-superior-why-that-may-be-wrong/ This is about vegetarians but the same food obviously applies. When you consider the amount of water and resources required and greenhouse gases produced, these types of diets start to not seem as appealing. Since meat gives you more energy for a relatively small amount of mass, it requires more resources to meet the same amount of energy. As the article says "What is good for us health-wise isn't always what's best for the environment." However, it is not that veganism or vegeterianism is necessarily more harmful for the environment than meat production. It's that producing more vegetables and similar foods for the same amount of energy is more harmful. However, meat production does take a high toll on the environment. So it's not as simple as saying "x diet is better for the environment". When considering all of the complicated factors, there really are no clear answers. Even if particular diets seem more intuitively environmentally-minded, evidence tends to lead to counter-intuitive results. "You can't lump all vegetables together and say they're good. You can't lump all meat together and say it's bad" There is no easy solution. If we all went vegan, that would have devastating consequences. But currently, the amount of meat produced also have devastating consequences. What will more likely benefit the environment is simply eating less of what you already eat. The typical American diet involves far too many calories and is the reason why 2/3 are obese. Incorporating more plant-based diets with a little bit of meat is likely better for the environment. TL;DR More research needs to be done to isolate particular diets and understand their environmental implications.
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	we can all do what the monks do and eat fruit and nuts
BenThatsMyJamin 09.05.16	Gmember, I don't think you've ever had a good chateaubriand steak avec jus, because there really is nothing better
smaugman 09.05.16	can't take my meat away
CrimsonLies 09.05.16	I don't have any problem with veganism. It's just not so clear on the impact it or any other diet has for the environment. Anyway, I have a question I've wanted to ask a vegan. Scientists are currently making "lab grown" meat. Assuming it tasted the same and had little environmental impact, would you eat it? Since the ethnic side would no longer apply.
DoofusWainwright 09.05.16	I like 99% of all food I've tried so I could adapt to being vegan and who knows the world could be heading to a time when there is a lot less meat available due to the environment and over population - but I have to admit I'd miss a good quality rib eye steak, there is no substitute
DoofusWainwright 09.05.16	One thing I do know is for some older vegetarians weakened by disease or illness doctors will suggest they eat some meat as it is a nutritional shortcut of sorts
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	am i a carnivore if i eat a womans pussy
Ocean of Noise 09.05.16	What about Ian MacKaye?
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	fucking crimsonlies with truth bombs
smaugman 09.05.16	don't lie mike. we know u dont. you're a herbivor. damn cow.
theNateman 09.05.16	Frank Iero is a vegan. He's the frontman of frnkiero andthe cellabration
Calc 09.05.16	@Calc would you prefer a dogmatic creed? no but if your gonna stand for something stand for something, picking and choosing the bits of it to uphold that suit you is kind of watering down the entire purpose don't you think?
DirEnRefused 09.05.16	pots that was a pretty shameless rip-off of carlin earlier and it's a stupid point anyway lol like i don't think many non-idiots when saying they care about the environment literally are referring to the earth's future as an independent planet no shit it'll survive
DirEnRefused 09.05.16	"A friend the other day were discussing whether this is the way everything was intended to be - hundreds of millions of years of evolution led to this point where there was one completely dominant species that uses the natural resources and other animals to its personal gain." evolution doesn't have intent, what is is what is.
trve 09.05.16	all veggies are radical and radical ppl are twats
Zig 09.05.16	Curiously, Barry White was vegan.
Egarran 09.05.16	I will never understand hate towards vegans. It seems to boil down to 'so you think eating vegetables makes you better than me? I WILL END YOU.'
zakalwe 09.05.16	Must have eaten a fucking shit load of tofu
BallsDeep 09.05.16	One thing I've noticed is that any vegan that goes to great lengths to make it known that their vegan is likely doing it for the wrong reasons
DirEnRefused 09.05.16	those vegans are so overstated lol meat eaters have made this strawman punching bag of obnoxious vegans and i'm not denying they exist but it seems far more likely they're the ones attacked for their choice rather than vice versa
DoofusWainwright 09.05.16	tofu is an aphrodisiac?
Sinternet 09.05.16	yeah there's way less obnoxious vegans than people think, most of them are pretty friendly and it's just part of their life, they may talk about it or encourage others but they don't make it a major part of their personality considering going veggie myself tbh, i don't eat much meat unless i go out for a meal
Egarran 09.05.16	It really triggers some people and I'm not sure why. Not a veggie either, I just rarely eat meat.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"pots that was a pretty shameless rip-off of carlin earlier and it's a stupid point anyway lol" who the fuck is carlin and what point are you referring to, use your words big guy. "like i don't think many non-idiots when saying they care about the environment literally are referring to the earth's future as an independent planet no shit it'll survive" are you stupid? serious question. many environmentalists pretend they are concerned with the earths health separated from self-interest.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"evolution doesn't have intent, what is is what is." look babies first 100 level philosophy course over here what a champ
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	like i dunno are you referring to George Carlin because I don't watch stand up comedy so i don't know what you're talking about and believe it or not in a world of 7.4 billion people sometimes people have the same ideas.
anat 09.05.16	My gf is vegetarian so that's opened up a world that was alien to me prior. I learnt to rustle up a really nice vegetarian curry, but I'd not be able to commit to a full vegetarian diet. People can do what they want, but as with anything, it's the militants that give the whole exercise a bad name (religion, drugs, gatekeepers etc)
Lord(e)Po)))ts 09.05.16	"those vegans are so overstated lol meat eaters have made this strawman punching bag of obnoxious vegans and i'm not denying they exist but it seems far more likely they're the ones attacked for their choice rather than vice versa" this is true but when most vegans are vegan for questionable and empirically debatable reasons obviously the average vegan is gonna kind of be an idiot. i mean i know a dude who literally once said "there is no right way to do the wrong thing" in regards to eating meat. ~implying eating meat is inherently wrong. like wut.
anat 09.05.16	In my experience there are those vegans who are vegans by proxy because they like to argue and belittle people they deem to be inferior, but mostly vegans are pretty chill and don't give a shit if you enjoy eating meat
Trebor. 09.05.16	I'm vegetarian
DirEnRefused 09.05.16	"are you stupid? serious question. many environmentalists pretend they are concerned with the earths health separated from self-interest." then i'd consider them pretty low hanging fruit dude for obvious reasons. same with your friend's comment. some conservatives are flat earthers but i'm not going to hold it against all of them "this is true but when most vegans are vegan for questionable and empirically debatable reasons obviously the average vegan is gonna kind of be an idiot" again pointing out stupid shit as being stupid isn't a winning argument. i know lots of vegans who've because of their active decision to change their lifestyle away from the norm put a lot of research into why it's the "right" choice for them all while not being a dick about it. i guess i haven't experienced some burlap cunt screaming meat is murder over my burger like apparently every other 18-25 year old guy on the internet "look babies first 100 level philosophy course over here what a champ" i don't know what you want from me on this one lol, am i wrong?
BenThatsMyJamin 09.05.16	I don't dislike vegans/veggies unless they're hippies, but then the veganism usually only serves to compound the hatred If I became a vegetarian I'd probs kill myself tbh I can't explain how much I love meat
owen 09.05.16	kurt ballou
emester 09.05.16	I see it as this: One's diet is a lifestyle choice. Making it a moral choice to berate and shame others with is fucking stupid, no matter the side of the coin we are talking about here.
bloc 09.05.16	I don't get it because vegans have no problem putting animals in their cars as fuel. Dinosaurs were animals too!!!
Sevengill 09.05.16	are vegans allowed to swallow serious question
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	we are all human so its all good
Hyperion1001 09.05.16	lol never change sputnik
miketunneyiscool123 09.05.16	remove some of the grumpy cuntbags, and ill agree 100% with that
tofue 09.05.16	i've been vegan for 4 years now, mostly for ethical reasons, definitely plan to be vegan for as long I can
ZippaThaRippa 09.05.16	Grumpy cuntbags serve a purpose
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 09.05.16	Hahaha why list Fiona? Are you trying to make veganism look good or like a Gulag sentence? Why not list Bill Clinton and the army of walking dead vegans who think they're so healthy. Also kinda wanna rip a dude in a band that was super sanctimonious about his vegan diet and believed meat caused cancer, but I'll refrain as it's still too soon.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 09.05.16	Funny story, once heard a vegan say that cattle should be allowed to roam the fields in their natural state the way evolution intended without being eaten by us. Cause yeah dude, if there's any animal that totally evolved absent human intervention it's the fucking cow, a huge slow-moving slab of meat with no defense mechanisms to speak of. It's not like it exists solely because humans bred them that way since forever for the exclusive purpose of human consumption.
ScuroFantasma 09.05.16	I've been vegetarian for nearly two years (in Feb) it was a lot easier that I expected, first world countries and all, it takes literally no more effort to eat vegetarian. Did it for ethical reasons. Had a quick skim of the comments and they're about as dumb as I expected most of them tbh.
emester 09.05.16	There's honestly nothing wrong with being vegan or vegetarian. Hell my girlfriend is a pretty dedicated vegetarian. What irks me is that dietary choices, of all fucking things, are being preached by some like religion, even to points where it borders on fanaticism.
ScuroFantasma 09.05.16	The other side is just as defensive and sensitive though. You'll see people post pictures of their steaks in vegan blogs and shit for no reason, people are just petty assholes full stop and those are the ones that are most vocal and most obvious in every group.
SharkTooth 09.05.16	I literally have never met a vegan irl
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 09.05.16	I heard in Argentina they eat vegans.
Asdfp277 09.05.16	ate that raw vegan puci
Asdfp277 09.05.16	ghost: i'm on chile and i'm p. sure veganism ain't that weird down here
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 09.05.16	In addition to a few Argies I know I remember this gem: "In the 1990s, Argentina’s then-President Carlos Menem even told a United States magazine, “Tell your readers, ‘Don’t come to my country if they’re vegetarian.'” Beast mode.
Asdfp277 09.06.16	they prolly say that coz they sell dead cows, it would be bad publicity otherwise
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	I'm just going to randomly adress some things too: - I know this one is usually a joke, but sometimes people are exaclty this stupid so; plants are not conscious, do not have a central nervous system/brain, are not aware. They are not the same as animals, obviously. - I can't speak for all vegetarians, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with eating meat, we're omnivorous because we can eat both. I have a huge problem with the abhorrent practices of industrial level meat production. You can cite your local abattoir as being the most ethical place you've seen from farm to death, but I assure you that is an exception not the norm. Cutting cost and time is priority number one for any industry, and that's pretty unacceptable in my eyes when it comes to life. Now personally the way I see it in a first world country you can go through life without having to eat meat, and I would see it as unecessary and personally won't do it, but if it were done 100% assuredly humanely, and I'm talking the whole animals life, I dont see why people shouldn't eat meat if that's your choice. - it's not that hard, it's healthy, no you won't be weak, no there's nothing inherently special about meat that you cannot source in a well stocked supermarket. We're omnivorous, and thanks to society we now live in a time where eating only vegetables etc. is a viable option. Now if you're one of those cunts who forces their pet to join in (cats and dogs) then you're a despicable, uneducated piece of shit that's slowly killing their pet. Get a fucking Rabbit. That's about it.
emester 09.06.16	"The other side is just as defensive and sensitive though. You'll see people post pictures of their steaks in vegan blogs and shit for no reason, people are just petty assholes full stop and those are the ones that are most vocal and most obvious in every group." Which is exactly my point. Both sides have their rotten aspects. I dont see either carnism, veganism and so on as being stupid. Its the people who instigate attacks on their contrary side that are the problem and in turn tarnish the reputations of vegans, vegetarians, pescetarians etc.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 09.06.16	Hey Scuro, you do know you have to kill pests to eat veg, right? I mean, if you don't use pesticides rodents and insects will devour your crops before you can eat them. They're r-selected and can outgun you K-selected scrubs if you don't murder the shit out of them to protect your stash.
Asdfp277 09.06.16	was any of that necessary tho
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Yeah that's true. There's no easy solution, I just try my hardest to minimise my impact. At the end of the day I'm still using electricity, living in a house and participating in a world that every day destroyes the environment. Only thing you can do in my opinion, the way society is, is try to be as compassionate and least destructive you can be. If everyone just cut back it would be so much better, not perfect, but better.
GhostOfSarcasticBtrd 09.06.16	As long as you acknowledge that I'm cool with it. It's just the "I'm 100% above it all" bullshit that pisses me off about some (many) vegans. The only way they're not killing animals is if they stick a spike through their own skull and end it.
Egarran 09.06.16	How do you get pissed off at vegans, in a world where atrocities and disasters are supported daily by corrupt and ignorant people with actual power? Looks like you're channeling powerless anger towards a harmless group of people.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	elitism in all forms is cringeworthy
RadicalEd 09.06.16	@ LordePots, your argument against going vegan or vegetarian for ethical/enviromental reasons is very black and white. I agree that having a vegetarian/vegan diet doesn't mean that there is NO ethical/environmental ballast attached to your diet (I don't think this is even debatable tbh). But I think there is a solid case to be made that there is LESS ethical/environmental ballast attached to it. "I mean, if you don't use pesticides rodents and insects will devour your crops before you can eat them" This is also a correct statement but I think a mute point. There is a good case for a "hierachy of emphaty" towards other species. I.E. it's reasonable to have more empathy for a Squirrel than for an Insect and more empathy for a Dolphin than for a Squirrel. So it would still be better (not perfect of course) to kill insects than Pigs. Also this argument kinda ignores that people who eat meat naturally also eat some amount of plants and therefore participate in the same practice. I do agree tho that some vegetarians/vegans are just trying to find some way to the moral highground so they can be dicks to everyone and that is very annoying.
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	Girlfriend is vegetarian since she doesn't like the taste of meat. So I end up eating a lot less meat. Shrug guy. Doesn't always have to have such a moralistic component, but yeah, Pots et al are correct - if you do it for the environment, it's a joke. If you actually care about the environment, you wouldn't be here posting on a device that requires fossil fuels to produce and power, sitting inside a climate controlled room with your wastefully produced clothing as you contemplate eating a horrendously environmentally draning-ly produced vegetable rice pilaf. You're like the people from my university who used to campaign for our endowment to divest from fossil fuels - focusing on one issue, taking your moral satisfaction while ignoring countless other issues.
zakalwe 09.06.16	YES I EAT COW I AM NOT PROUD!!!
Keyblade 09.06.16	"There is a good case for a "hierachy of emphaty" towards other species. I.E. it's reasonable to have more empathy for a Squirrel than for an Insect and more empathy for a Dolphin than for a Squirrel." i'm not familiar with this concept. how does it work, genuinely curious
Cygnatti 09.06.16	waka is vegan?! nuuuuu
RadicalEd 09.06.16	"Doesn't always have to have such a moralistic component, but yeah, Pots et al are correct - if you do it for the environment, it's a joke. If you actually care about the environment, you wouldn't be here posting on a device that requires fossil fuels to produce and power, sitting inside a climate controlled room with your wastefully produced clothing as you contemplate eating a horrendously environmentally draning-ly produced vegetable rice pilaf." Incorrect. First of all this "all or nothing" argument is in my opinion rather harmful. "If you are not a total saint, every positive thing you do is only a sign of hypocrisy" is imo not a valid ethical position. I agree that there ARE people out there who just want some kind of moral superiority, but that is honestly beside the point if your discussing wheter or not the ethical position is sound or not. Secondly the impact that factory farming and generally the over-consumption of meat has on the environment may very well be bigger (but is at the very least comparable) to things like the burning of fossil fuel.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	@LordePots, Calc, CrimsonLies, other assorted people Anybody with a shred of knowledge of philosophy of ethics will tell you that it is abhorrent to exploit one group of sentient life forms, human or not, just because you can. Eating meat and dairy is putting our preference interests (desire-based) over the welfare interests (need-based) of non-human animals. The parallels with human slavery are enormous. To say they are not comparable is to commit a anthropocentrist / speciesist fallacy, whereby you refute all scientific evidence of animal sentience based solely on a human tendency to declare themselves supreme, at the cost of everyone and everything else. It is a very indefensible position to take, so don't go there. You'll lose. The ethics of producing meat are on a spectrum... often it is on the fucking evil factory side, for the sake of efficiency. But don't pretend for a moment that raising an animal, only to kill it and eat it, is morally defensible. It is still dying in pain just so you can have a burger. I've seen footage from organic, Halal and free range farms, and while an improvement over factory, it is still fucking horrific. Other species cannot survive without meat, and as such we cannot fault them for doing what is necessary. We can survive just fine, and are actually better off without meat. Eating meat and dairy is preference, not welfare. All you need to do is educate yourself on exactly which foods give you which nutrients and you'll be absolutely fucking fine. I get all the iron, protein, B12, Vitamin C, potassium etc etc etc I need. I'm actually healthier than most of my omnivorous friends, because I am a conscious eater. They are stuck on autopilot. As for moral hypocrisy, vegans don't instantly have a carbon footprint of zero. Any who tell you they do is an idiot. As several people have said, with food production and distribution, having a footprint of zero is nigh impossible. This is about reducing your environmental harm, where you can. You can use your consumer power to support renewable energy industries. You can recycle. You can walk to and from the supermarket, bringing old bags with you. Diet happens to be a big one. The daily footprint of a vegan is around a third of the size of a heavy meat eater, and half the size of a moderate meat eater.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	People seem to think that reducing your environmental impact is a waste of time, if the footprint you come up with is anything other than zero. That's fucking retarded. "More research needs to be done to isolate particular diets and understand their environmental implications." Agreed, but as I said before, this isn't exclusive to diet. Reducing environmental impact and being a better person is an attitudinal thing you should put into practice where and when it is feasible for you. For instance, me avoiding all clothing that was produced in Bangladesh or involved animals in its production is nigh impossible, considering where in the world I am and my economic situation. If the day comes that I can avoid those altogether, I will.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	RadicalEd I fucking love you keep dropping dat truth
smaugman 09.06.16	poly is smug confirmed
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	"Doesn't always have to have such a moralistic component, but yeah, Pots et al are correct - if you do it for the environment, it's a joke. If you actually care about the environment, you wouldn't be here posting on a device that requires fossil fuels to produce and power, sitting inside a climate controlled room with your wastefully produced clothing as you contemplate eating a horrendously environmentally draning-ly produced vegetable rice pilaf." See that argument and some of the ones pots made about are just wrong. Saying that because being vegan or whatever doesn't remove your environmental impact it's a useless endeavour, is just wrong. I would applaud anyone who tries to do the best they can to minimise their impact instead of saying "well the worlds already fucked, may as well be as glutinous as I can". If everyone thought along those lines there would be no attempts to fix things, or at least minimise the damage. It's almost impossible to exist in society without electricity, or fuel, or a house I mean come on. But sure, let's not recycle, let's leave all the lights on during the day, let's shit directly into the river, because hey you own a laptop so you must hate the environment anyway.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	"I do agree tho that some vegetarians/vegans are just trying to find some way to the moral highground so they can be dicks to everyone and that is very annoying." Yeah but people do that for everything, it's just how they are. Heck some users on this very website will act like gods personal tosser because they have a higher comment count, or join date, or more ratings etc lol. People love feeling superior for shit that's not very impressive, it's human nature more or less.
RadicalEd 09.06.16	"i'm not familiar with this concept. how does it work, genuinely curious" I'm not the most well read guy on this, but I try to sketch this out real quick: If you if you think doing harm to another live form is generally bad (I think that is a safe assumption for most people), it's probably because you don't want to cause suffering (blanket term for negative experiences like pain, trauma, sorrow etc.). Different species of animals have different mental capacities for consciously experiencing suffering. I.E. a wounded dolphin will experience a very different level of suffering than an Ant that just lost one leg. Therefore it is in my view reasonable to prioritize the well-being of species that can experience sophisticated emotions. This does (for the most part) coincide with the "standard" human moral intuition, if you squash a fly on your windshield on the way home, you'll probably don't care for it, if you on the other hand overrun a deer you'll probably at least feel bad.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	pain response in other species is nearly impossible to quantify
RadicalEd 09.06.16	"RadicalEd I fucking love you keep dropping dat truth" cheers bud.
smaugman 09.06.16	let's shit directly into the river, because hey you own a laptop so you must hate the environment anyway. ??? let's leave all the lights on during the day this isn't an issue depending on how your electricty is produced but yea it's no point recycling should be developed further, there are many rare metals found in phones and computers that are going to waste because too few deliver their phones when they're broken
smaugman 09.06.16	Anybody with a shred of knowledge of philosophy of ethics will tell you that it is abhorrent to exploit one group of sentient life forms, human or not, just because you can. Eating meat and dairy is putting our preference interests (desire-based) over the welfare interests (need-based) of non-human animals well that's stupid to say
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	"Incorrect. First of all this "all or nothing" argument is in my opinion rather harmful. "If you are not a total saint, every positive thing you do is only a sign of hypocrisy" is imo not a valid ethical position. I agree that there ARE people out there who just want some kind of moral superiority, but that is honestly beside the point if your discussing wheter or not the ethical position is sound or not." And anyone else who responded as such - I'm not saying that your choice is wrong or has no merit whatsoever. What I am saying is that if you think you're having any serious impact on the environment as a result, you're wrong. Further, if you choose to chastise and sneer at others who don't follow your tepid example, then you're also a dick.
RadicalEd 09.06.16	"pain response in other species is nearly impossible to quantify" That is (at this moment in time) correct, and it makes this "hierachy" a difficult concept. But, just because we have difficulty figuring out what the actual pain response are in different species, doesn't mean there isn't a difference. Also I think it is actually pretty safe to say (although I'm no expert and I will happily be corrected by anyone who actually knows details) that the response to pain and other stimuli becomes more sophisticated and "deep" the bigger the brain of the respective species gets.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Well I didn't mean shit directly into a river but y'know, pollute it with sewage
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	it means its fluffy useless hyperbolic pseudoscience yeah
RadicalEd 09.06.16	"What I am saying is that if you think you're having any serious impact on the environment as a result, you're wrong." No single, average human being will ever have a significant influence on a gigantic ecosystem like the Earth. Unless you're super rich and can make stuff happen or super smart and convince everyone to follow your lead, you're pretty much stuck with trying to do the best you can, even tho in the grand scheme of things it won't change much.
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	By all means, do what you want as long as it doesn't impact how I choose to live my life, but you shouldn't think that you are some kind of saint because you don't eat meat or animal products. There is no way to live in the 21st century and not be extraordinarily damaging to the planet. Again, doesn't mean small actions are useless, but there is no moral high ground here, not even in a relative sense really.
Cygnatti 09.06.16	"those vegans are so overstated lol meat eaters have made this strawman punching bag of obnoxious vegans and i'm not denying they exist but it seems far more likely they're the ones attacked for their choice rather than vice versa" dude i lived wit one... they're real af.
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	"No single, average human being will ever have a significant influence on a gigantic ecosystem like the Earth. Unless you're super rich and can make stuff happen or super smart and convince everyone to follow your lead, you're pretty much stuck with trying to do the best you can, even tho in the grand scheme of things it won't change much." Thank you for affirming my point? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
RadicalEd 09.06.16	"it means its fluffy useless hyperbolic pseudoscience yeah" It's not even a scientific concept per se. It's a ethical stance.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	"And anyone else who responded as such - I'm not saying that your choice is wrong or has no merit whatsoever. What I am saying is that if you think you're having any serious impact on the environment as a result, you're wrong. Further, if you choose to chastise and sneer at others who don't follow your tepid example, then you're also a dick." That's again not true, because if A LOT of people make smart decisions and decide to care about the envoronment and our future, then it makes a HUGE difference. And the only way to reach a big number of people is with many, many single humans. if you want proof of that look at how quickly the environment has gone to shit, that was all from single people collectively doing things.
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	Like I already agreed with you that doing the best one can is all one can do, but as I also said, there's no moral high ground here as far as environmental impact goes, unless you're going off to a cabin in the woods and producing your own food for yourself and not wasting anything and using no pesticides, etc.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	Just like how individuals are more innately emotionally attached and protective of other individuals ranked by blood relation (i.e. one will always be willing to devote resources to their child before their cousin, and onward), humans as a species feel more connected to other species roughly based on genetic similarities (mammals before fish, as a broad example). To say a cow is less worthy for consumption as a food source than a fish is simply speciesist, and to use some bs argument for pain is completely invalid for anyone actually using logic, science and fact as the basis of their argument for or against a specific diet. /rant
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"It's a ethical stance." it's not a fucking ethical stance it can't be it's based on imaginary fairy tale hyperbole lmao it's an opinion based on a theory without evidence, that's all i'm willing to call it
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	"That's again not true, because if A LOT of people make smart decisions and decide to care about the envoronment and our future, then it makes a HUGE difference. And the only way to reach a big number of people is with many, many single humans. if you want proof of that look at how quickly the environment has gone to shit, that was all from single people collectively doing things." Right, but what I'm saying is that your choice to, for example, not eat meat fails to address an enormous number of other issues. So if you get everyone to (following the example) not eat meat, we are still royally fucked in the grand scheme of things. If you really want to set an example, go live sustainability and forgo the comforts of modern life and technological progress.
Cygnatti 09.06.16	btw plants release chemicals when they knew they're in danger (usually in the form of bugs tryna eat them -- by detecting sounds or smells of bugs). meaning that plants have some semblance of sentience. o_o
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	"By all means, do what you want as long as it doesn't impact how I choose to live my life, but you shouldn't think that you are some kind of saint because you don't eat meat or animal products. There is no way to live in the 21st century and not be extraordinarily damaging to the planet. Again, doesn't mean small actions are useless, but there is no moral high ground here, not even in a relative sense really." It shouldn't be seen as 'saintly' to do the bare minimum of looking after your environment. These same arguments keep popping up by people who feel threatened or judged on how they're living by those who live differently and try even harder to defend maintianing they're routine, but what you should really be considering is whether a change towards environmentally friendly (friendlier) decisions is a positive thing? If you agree that it is, then why not support it rather than create a divide?
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"No single, average human being will ever have a significant influence on a gigantic ecosystem like the Earth. Unless you're super rich and can make stuff happen or super smart and convince everyone to follow your lead, you're pretty much stuck with trying to do the best you can, even tho in the grand scheme of things it won't change much." exactly, so why sacrifice health and money for a vegetarian diet when the net sum of the difference in impact of your diet as a single individual over the entirety of your lifetime is for all intents and purposes ZERO the problem is the population is too large, if there were less people on earth and meat was harvested respectfully and sustainable in a manner similar to how indigenous people hunted, diet would be a non-issue people are not thinking about the big picture when they think their individual vegetarianism is any type of useful solution, ignorance at it's fucking finest
smaugman 09.06.16	it's the corporations that has the big responsibility
smaugman 09.06.16	what people are never thinking about in the climate debate is the fact that THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY COUNTRIES THAT GET TOO MANY CHILDREN
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	"btw plants release chemicals when they knew they're in danger (usually in the form of bugs tryna eat them -- by detecting sounds or smells of bugs). meaning that plants have some semblance of sentience. o_o" Plants are alive, but that's more of a reaction than a response to danger. I'm not going to pretend I understand exaclty how plants work because life is super complex, but they aren't capable, that we know of, of thinking and feeling since they lack a nervous system.
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	"It shouldn't be seen as 'saintly' to do the bare minimum of looking after your environment. These same arguments keep popping up by people who feel threatened or judged on how they're living by those who live differently and try even harder to defend maintianing they're routine, but what you should really be considering is whether a change towards environmentally friendly (friendlier) decisions is a positive thing? If you agree that it is, then why not support it rather than create a divide? " Agreed, shouldn't be seen as saintly, but unfortunately, many who choose to live this way do. Personally, I agree and do take steps to try and be more environmentally friendly. I try to use less energy, recycle more, and if you choose to think it's a net environmental gain, I end up eating less meat because I like to eat healthy. It's all a balance, but I don't feel like I'll even come close to making my net impact on the planet zero. Does that stop me? No, but I don't go around making people feel bad for eating a burger unless they're so obese that they're abusing their own bodies. Everything in moderation, friends.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	funny how all these people conveniently keep reaching the conclusion that "I have no personal responsibility, the world is fucked anyway, may as well keep doing exactly what I'm doing now" you weighed up all of the facts, theories and logic and concluded that you don't have to do anything, that really must be the best feeling, phew what a relief
smaugman 09.06.16	it's not like meat is toxic you know
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	change starts with the individual chuck, how do you expect things to be different if you keep living the same? Is some random event going to take place where suddenly the whole world shifts thought, or will it be a gradual change of individuals who make a difference?
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	can some of you vegetarians please respond to my posts thanks
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"change starts with the individual chuck, how do you expect things to be different if you keep living the same? Is some random event going to take place where suddenly the whole world shifts thought, or will it be a gradual change of individuals who make a difference?" i don't think you understand my argument, humans are meant to eat meat, that is how we evolved over a period of time so much fucking larger than any time before the idea of a vegetarian diet was even thought of my argument is for a lesser population, and respectful sustainable meat harvesting again, the problem is not diet, it's the population crisis, and all these people that think their saving the fucking planet eating lettuce can fucking die, read a book jesus christ
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	btw these opinions are being brought to you by an environmental science major who has spoken at national conventions about energy issues
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	"funny how all these people conveniently keep reaching the conclusion that "I have no personal responsibility, the world is fucked anyway, may as well keep doing exactly what I'm doing now" you weighed up all of the facts, theories and logic and concluded that you don't have to do anything, that really must be the best feeling, phew what a relief" There's a difference between doing nothing and doing what one feels is right to make what impact can be made. Do I think that going vegetarian is the way to reduce my environmental impact significantly? No. Do I eat fewer burgers because clearly overproduction of beef is not good and it's bad for my health? Yes. There's shades of grey here.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	"funny how all these people conveniently keep reaching the conclusion that "I have no personal responsibility, the world is fucked anyway, may as well keep doing exactly what I'm doing now" Yeah I don't think most people actually, truly believes that, but it's much easier to go "well everyone's doing it so me changing my mind isn't going to do anything" and absolve yourself from responsibility than it is to take control. People get really defensive of these things because it challenges some pretty deeply entrenched thoughts and feelings. And I understand that, its hard to consider that things you've always been sure of might be changeable, but it's important to consider.
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	" it's important to consider." Always and for everything.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	That's exactly my point though, a lot of vegetarians feel and act like their someway or somehow fucking enlightened when they are completely missing the source of the problem to begin with. "HEY MOM I THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX NOW" good for you kid, now think outside the cube
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	the fact none of you are directly responding to me is ironic in that you are indeed refusing to challenge your beliefs im out of this thread, waste of time
smaugman 09.06.16	meat isn't really "bad" for you. but it has been proven that eating a lot of red meat increases the chance of developing bowel cancer
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Chuck you seem like an angry guy, chill out a bit and just think about the fact that evolution never accounted for anything because it's evolution. We are omnivores, we can survive off both meat and plants etc. we live in an incomparable time where for a good amount of people, food is crazily abundant. We can now sustain ourselves without the need for meat. So evolution aside, there's possibilities that society has made available, such as life Saving surgery, that makes actual human ability or make-up not completely relevant.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	"it's the corporations that has the big responsibility" yeah and they are only going to respond to consumer pressure, so it is up to you to support and boycott companies accordingly, jfc
smaugman 09.06.16	we if human's ate berries and leafs we'd be fine
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	We can now grow sperm in petri dishes and artificially inseminate and impregnate women, so there's no need for male humans anymore either. KILL ALL MEN lmao
smaugman 09.06.16	poly, if i choose to not eat meat, it's not like anything would change. people will always eat meat. i'd only sacrifice good food for nothing
Polyethylene 09.06.16	"again, the problem is not diet, it's the population crisis, and all these people that think their saving the fucking planet eating lettuce can fucking die, read a book jesus christ" again, diet is just one of the many things that needs to change if we are going to make it to 2116... and it just so happens to be one of the easiest switches you can make
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Chuck you're so thoroughly and aggressively against having a decent conversation that you fail to realize your own beliefs aren't being challenged. I grew up on a meat diet just like everyone else starts off with. A week before I decided to go vegetarian I was on the other side defending the fact that eating meat is not inherently wrong. But then I saw that on all other points I could see how not eating meat, making decisions that benefit the environment and not an industry that AS IT STANDS is unethical, was a good choice.
smaugman 09.06.16	diet is just one of the many things that needs to change if we are going to make it to 2116 wtf is wrong with you? why are climate fanatics talking about it like the world's gonna explode?
Polyethylene 09.06.16	@smaugman if 7 billion people all individually say "I don't matter", then sure, nothing will change. Stop thinking on such an individual level
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Chuck you're seriously missing the point here cmon dude.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"Easy", yet more expensive. Tell that to a population that is ever increasing in debt, trying to reel after a housing crisis, etc etc. Meat is 100% always going to be the easiest of most efficient source of protein. End of fucking discussion. And protein is THE most important macronutrient for human health. And given it's the most efficient source, it will always be the most accessible for people without the means to live a healthy life with low income.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	Rising sea levels, shrinking land mass flying in the face booming populations, devastation to crops around the equator due to climate change, the bees are dying, the sea is becoming toxic and riddled with plastic... yeah I think there might be some degree of urgency here
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"Chuck you're seriously missing the point here cmon dude. " what's the point that i'm missing there big guy or are you just mad because your beliefs are being challenged
Spacesh1p 09.06.16	There's a lot of point missing going on here, to be honest.
smaugman 09.06.16	if 3 billion people would stop getting fucklaods of kids and governments would put some pressure on corportations
Keyblade 09.06.16	cheers Ed for the explanation. that's a really fuzzy stance tho, imma try to read on it some more to see if it makes more sense
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	@smaugman if 7 billion people all individually say "I don't matter", then sure, nothing will change. Stop thinking on such an individual level [2] A group is a collection of singular people, I think that's what you're not getting. You say that you're personal choice won't make a difference, but look at the reverse of that right now, the planet is being very affected by people's choices, so if we choose differently on a personal level, eventually the Impact grows.
Keyblade 09.06.16	honestly Poly everything u say goes out the window because u wear animals for fashion fam
Polyethylene 09.06.16	Chuck you seriously think meat production is easier and more efficient than growing legumes? Those things are proteinaceous af
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"Chuck you seriously think meat production is easier and more efficient than growing legumes? Those things are proteinaceous af" you're a fucking moron if you think otherwise WOW
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	you honestly think gram for gram it would be more cost effective for a consumer to sustain themselves on daily requirements of protein by eating legumes than cheap sources of meat you entitled piece of shit
Polyethylene 09.06.16	"honestly Poly everything u say goes out the window because u wear animals for fashion fam" Secondhand wool and leather does not increase demand for animal products. Next.
smaugman 09.06.16	Rising sea levels, shrinking land mass flying in the face booming populations, devastation to crops around the equator due to climate change, the bees are dying, the sea is becoming toxic and riddled with plastic many things = kaboom the ocean is rising at an incredibly small rate, shrinking land mass = no, booming populations is like 0% west's fault (no), only underdeveloped ones, devastation to crops,we got lots of food and the would is capable of producing A LOT more, bees dead? = earth goodbye yea no, sea isn't toxic, the levels are minuscule
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	""Chuck you're seriously missing the point here cmon dude. " what's the point that i'm missing there big guy or are you just mad because your beliefs are being challenged" Try to cut back on the patronizing and just relax man, I'm not trying to offend you but all your responses seem to be filled with venom. As I said I was once on the other side of this argument to some degree, I'm open to my views being challened, but ironically you've been flat out ignoring or misrepresenting everything Ive said and responds agressively.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	smaug bro lets not pretend to know about things we dont, there absolutely are many many urgent environmental issues ongoing at present directly resulting from human impact, that much is a given
smaugman 09.06.16	im not saying there isn't, but he is saying they will result in total world collapse
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"Try to cut back on the patronizing and just relax man, I'm not trying to offend you but all your responses seem to be filled with venom. As I said I was once on the other side of this argument to some degree, I'm open to my views being challened, but ironically you've been flat out ignoring or misrepresenting everything Ive said and responds agressively." so you said i'm missing the point but don't explain what the point i'm missing is and just whine about HOW i'm talking, sounds like you're just refusing to challenge your beliefs mate
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Chuck cost shouldn't be a factor when it comes to ethics. I understand why for many people the specific choice of going full on vegan is by an option, but trying to make a positive change no matter how small adds up. Cutting back would be a worthwhile idea.
Keyblade 09.06.16	"Secondhand wool and leather does not increase demand for animal products. Next." perhaps, but what does demand have to do with anything? u cant take the moral high ground on killing animals for food when u out here wearing their hides cuz u think it looks good
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"Chuck cost shouldn't be a factor when it comes to ethics" I'm sorry dude but this is one of the most fucking ignorant things I have ever heard in my life. I try to pretend that elitism among your type isn't as pronounced as people make it to be but you're making it REALLY fucking hard to defend vegetarianism right now. absolute fucking bullshit
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	The governments should lead on change, for example the stats on the reduction in plastic bag usage in the UK are phenomenal. People are willing to change behaviors on mass but everything needs tying together including the corporations and trade partners etc. Plus you also need to educate. So much of this can only really be brought about through Government legislation and leadership. If research found that vegetarianism was truly so much healthier for individuals or the planet then for sure governments should incentivize that change, but will they? All I know is as far as I'm concerned it's part of their duty and anything less is just another form of negligence.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	It takes 518 gallons of water to produce a pound of chicken. It takes 1847 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef. It takes 1248 gallons of water to produce a pound of sheep meat. It takes 718 gallons of water to produce a pound of pork. It takes 395 gallons of water to produce a pound of egg. Tofu takes 257 gallons of water per pound, and is cheaper than meat in most countries. "Boneless chicken breasts cost an average of $3.27 per pound nationwide, while tofu sits around $2 to $2.50 per pound, and dried beans clock in around $1.39 per pound. Boneless pork averages $3.90 per pound, ground beef is at $3.27 and choice steak costs about $6.86 per pound."
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"hey poor boy, you can buy this can of tuna with 20g of protein for $1, or you can buy a sack of green peas for with 20g of protein for $6. but if you buy the tuna, you're an unethical piece of shit and it's your fault the world is falling apart. have a nice day"
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	So we should just all eat Chickens? O.k.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	The point your missing is that society makes thing a that were beforehand very difficult into viable, easier options. Your not considering how quickly the world has changed in the last few centuries compared to thousands of years beforehand. The world moves quickly. Your point about men becoming useless, you obviously know that's got less than nothing to do with what we're all talking about, your not missing the point, you're actively dodging it.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	"perhaps, but what does demand have to do with anything?" fucking rofl, Keyblade doesn't know how the world works
smaugman 09.06.16	actually, plastic bag usage isn't an issue everywhere. in norway, very many bags are uses as garbage bags after they've been used for groceries
smaugman 09.06.16	So we should just all eat Chickens? O.k. [2]
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	smaug it was an issue in the UK - check the stats the change in legislation totally changed the population's behaviour
smaugman 09.06.16	and meat.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Cost is how people justify using slave labour or sweatshops instead of paying workers. I'm not saying it's irrelevant to people making decisions, I'm satin that in a discussion about doing what's right, saying "yeah but it's cheaper if we just keep thinggs the same" is not a good argument.
smaugman 09.06.16	i said it wasnt an issue everywhere. uk =/= everywhere
Polyethylene 09.06.16	@Chuck I've said about twenty times in this thread that ethical and environmental lifestyle changes should be made WHEN and WHERE feasible. That is predominantly an economic thing. Most middle class westerners could easily change their lifestyles for the better, but are too reactionary and lazy.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	""hey poor boy, you can buy this can of tuna with 20g of protein for $1, or you can buy a sack of green peas for with 20g of protein for $6. but if you buy the tuna, you're an unethical piece of shit and it's your fault the world is falling apart. have a nice day"" come on guys i really want the rebuttal to this post dont fucking ignore me now
Polyethylene 09.06.16	I literally just responded to it
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	""hey poor boy, you can buy this can of tuna with 20g of protein for $1, or you can buy a sack of green peas for with 20g of protein for $6. but if you buy the tuna, you're an unethical piece of shit and it's your fault the world is falling apart. have a nice day"" eat the poor boys?
Keyblade 09.06.16	"fucking rofl, Keyblade doesn't know how the world works" how about u explain why demand is relevant to the morality of killing animials instead of living up to the pompous vegan stereotype
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	thanks poly i specifically want scuros response though given it was him who claimed "cost should not be part of ethics" lmao
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"eat the poor boys?" fucking brilliant, someone get this guy a nobel
smaugman 09.06.16	the tuna u get in cans is different from the filet stuff i think. i am strongly against killing of endangered animals. can tuna is okay as far as i know
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	@chuck Well first of all I have multiple times said that for some people it's not an option. I said specifically that it's mostly only first world countries where it's something you can do to minimize your impact. If enough people contribute than the change for other people will be an easier option too. I'm not suggesting poor people go hungry because cheap, filling food is generally not vegan. I am not suggesting that poor people are responsible for the world being the way it is, quite the opposite. So your point holds no water.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	'@Chuck I've said about twenty times in this thread that ethical and environmental lifestyle changes should be made WHEN and WHERE feasible. That is predominantly an economic thing. Most middle class westerners could easily change their lifestyles for the better, but are too reactionary and lazy.' People will change if suitably incentivized and the framework to allow for mass adoption of the change is provided for them (only reasonable to expect this, they work, they pay their taxes already). Calling on people to do 'their good deed' all the time isn't effective - it'll just seem like another type of charity ('Oh I've already done my bit this month, give me a break'). The change should be made into the logical/obvious thing to do by the Government through education, incentives and infrastructure. That's the only way to guarantee mass adoption of a behavior long term. Cycling in the UK is another one. Bus travel figures have plummeted. Why? Government intervention.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	And can you please tell me why cost should be a part of ethics? Because no matter how much money you save an ethically bad thing is still not going to be good. In your above example with the poor person, it's not te money I'm concerned about, it's the human who's life depends on what they fan afford and society says cheap and easy has meat in it. That's not the poor persons fault, that's not me saying money should be irrelevant to their choice, but in the grand scheme of good and bad money should not be the deciding factor on what's right and wrong.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	"how about u explain why demand is relevant to the morality of killing animals" I can't believe you even need to ask this, but okay. Putting the preference-based interests of humans above the needs-based interests of animals is not a defensible ethical position. On an industrial scale, the suffering is unprecedented. The more meat, dairy and first-hand animal-derived clothing you buy, the longer those industries will endure.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"People will change if suitably incentivized and the framework to allow for mass adoption of the change is provided for them (only reasonable to expect this, they work, they pay their taxes already). Calling on people to do 'their good deed' all the time isn't effective - it'll just seem like another type of charity ('Oh I've already done my bit this month, give me a break'). The change should be made into the logical/obvious thing to do by the Government through education, incentives and infrastructure. That's the only way to guarantee mass adoption of a behavior long term." education and taxation based on actual environmental impact to give things their actual value on the market but again then you have the issue of things costing too much and the issue of hunger and therefore we are back to the real problem - overpopulation
smaugman 09.06.16	the leading train company in norway got slogans like "be environmentally friendly" etc, but their prices make it much, much cheaper driving a car everywhere lmao
Polyethylene 09.06.16	Doofus speaks the truth, but I would also add that government education, incentives and infrastructure both shape and are shaped by the masses, much like corporate behaviour. The world is a two-way street.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"And can you please tell me why cost should be a part of ethics? Because no matter how much money you save an ethically bad thing is still not going to be good. In your above example with the poor person, it's not te money I'm concerned about, it's the human who's life depends on what they fan afford and society says cheap and easy has meat in it. That's not the poor persons fault, that's not me saying money should be irrelevant to their choice, but in the grand scheme of good and bad money should not be the deciding factor on what's right and wrong." Because money is the system we use to acquire goods so if the discussion is about ethics in consumer behavior obviously money / income diversity among the target population is going to be part of the discussion. Don't be silly dude like wtf
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"Doofus speaks the truth, but I would also add that government education, incentives and infrastructure both shape and are shaped by the masses, much like corporate behaviour. The world is a two-way street." education is a prerequisite man can't go to the moon before man even knows the moon exists
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	'why cost should be a part of ethics' Because ethics vary, so calling out to people's ethics will be far more random than incentivizing change financially. Some people don't think it's cruel to eat meat. Some people don't think it's selfish to drive their car for a five minute journey.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Yeah but you just switched away from actual ethics and onto implementing change. Again I agree with you that money is a factor in the real world that influences ability and options, but it has absolutely no sway on the actual morality of actions.
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	"Some people don't think it's cruel to eat meat. Some people don't think it's selfish to drive their car for a five minute journey." Further - some people can only afford a healthy diet that includes meat based upon the cost of goods in their market. Some people have certain health conditions which might mean driving in a car for that five minute journey, be it to the hospital, to the store, whatever, is the only feasible option.
Keyblade 09.06.16	"I can't believe you even need to ask this, but okay. Putting the preference-based interests of humans above the needs-based interests of animals is not a defensible ethical position. On an industrial scale, the suffering is unprecedented. The more meat, dairy and first-hand animal-derived clothing you buy, the longer those industries will endure." i understand that, just not how it relates to ur position. so ur not against the killing of animals per se, just the large scale inhumane killing done by industries?
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	@chuck yes thats absolutely true, I wouldn't place the burden of choice on people who don't have a choice, see what I'm saying?
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	Can we just all agree you're all simultaneously the smartest and dumbest people in the thread? Im too lazy to read and pick sides.
smaugman 09.06.16	shut up
smaugman 09.06.16	pick sides? can't you make up your own mind or what
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	ALA it's not about being smart or picking a side, most people in this discussion have had good, valid points on both sides. It's an important dialogue to have imo. No one is above thinking about their choices, and this thread has helped me better understand why I think like I do and why others think the way that do.
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	What do you guys think of cultured meat? I think it's the future. Like Supermeat
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	Im just not interested in this topic at all. I have my own opinion but im not sure id add value to the thread. Im more of a spectator
Keyblade 09.06.16	then just lurk and dont post plz
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	Chuck that's it, if you want people to make a choice you have to take their situation into account. Whether that's supplying healthy food coupons or tax breaks for people who have a reason they have to use a car then that's what needs to be done. That's getting close to a welfare concern. And also it should still be a choice, you want to avoid passing laws for this sort of thing. What people choose to eat is a really sensitive one, a lot of emotion invested there. For something similar think about alcohol. It's now been widely proven there aren't any real health benefits to drinking, it's a huge industry, a lot of energy and a lot of waste. Then you have the hospital costs etc. Is it ethical to drink? Is there a cultural and social importance too great to make what seems a logical change (to incentivise people to quit drinking entirely). People have been eating meat for a long time, a lot of history, a lot of emotion, a lot of pleasure to deny.
smaugman 09.06.16	i havent really participated at chuck's level at all
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/lab-grown-meat-is-in-your-future-and-it-may-be-healthier-than-the-real-stuff/2016/05/02/aa893f34-e630-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html http://supermeat.com/meat.html
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	With topics like this there's no real 'sides' either, we're all people living on the same planet trying to live life and make good choices, understanding our options and making educated choices is important. And the blokes I've been talking with have made me consider some things I hadn't before, hopefully I did the same. If nobody talks it's harder to think differently than what you've always done.
Polyethylene 09.06.16	@Keyblade personally I try to avoid using animal products altogether, just because I don't like the ethical implications of using them. In the case of meat and leather, something invariably had to die for me to use it. I've found animal products all to be pretty easily switched out or substituted, often coinciding with being cheaper and better for me. First-hand clothing is where I've had some difficulty, which is why I'd buy second hand. It is better than supporting those industries, and better than being naked, but still not ideal. If the world produced meat and dairy on a smaller, more ethical scale, that would be a huge improvement over the current state of affairs, but I would still abstain.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	All I do know is if humanity went vegan the population of animals on the planet would stiff, cows would probably be extinct within 10 years lol
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	What if I told you people have been working on growing meat in laboratories without having to kill animals and that it's better for the environment and cheaper to produce, yet is said to taste the same?
smaugman 09.06.16	the word ethic has been said 46 times
smaugman 09.06.16	you can't make an exact copy of animal meat in a lab. i'd like to them try tho
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	But they've already done it successfully. They call it cultured meat and the company Supermeat is trying to get it widespread. Read my above links.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Agree entirely with what you said there Poly. I'm not against people eating meat or dairy, I'm absolutely against how it's currently conducted with little to no disregard for those involved. And I too wouldn't participate in it even if it was changed just for personally not seeing the need to, but it woukd be infinitely better.
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	"All I do know is if humanity went vegan the population of animals on the planet would stiff, cows would probably be extinct within 10 years lol" Yeah I've seen this said before too. Animals did fine without us interfering for thousand of years, they would do fine without us again. We'd definitlely not be breeding them in the thousands for consumption so obviously numbers would drop, but they wouldn't die out just because we 'don't need them anymore'.
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	Ill just say that, very simply, i think that meat products in developing countries where the population already lacks proper nutrience is vital. Meat is just more accessible worldwide from what i can tell. That being said, I dont see why veganism shouldnt be promoted in well developed countries. Everyone should have the right to eat what they want but supporting healthier options isnt a bad thing, though i guess theres probably arguments for non veganism being just as good and healthy for you and the environment. Probably 20 valid rebbutals have been submitted for this opinion though. I love meat though, honestly. Hot dogs are gross af though
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	That's actually a really good response man.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	the animals used for meat would be in a bit of trouble, especially cows due to the methane issue I think we'd see a 99% drop in numbers pretty rapidly if people weren't eating them. No farmer would keep them unless paid to do so. The idea that pigs and cows will return to the wild is fanciful, a few petting zoos and the wild breeds will remain, a few pet pigs, even fewer pet cows, that's it. Had their chips, served their function for humanity. A vegan world would strangely be a world you hardly ever see any large animals in.
AlexKzillion 09.06.16	My sister said if everyone went vegan then world hunger would be cured lol
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	So does no one want to discuss the environmental benefits, health benefits, ethical benefits, and economic benefits of cultured meat because they don't know enough about it or what?
Keyblade 09.06.16	"@Keyblade personally I try to avoid using animal products altogether, just because I don't like the ethical implications of using them. In the case of meat and leather, something invariably had to die for me to use it. I've found animal products all to be pretty easily switched out or substituted, often coinciding with being cheaper and better for me. First-hand clothing is where I've had some difficulty, which is why I'd buy second hand. It is better than supporting those industries, and better than being naked, but still not ideal. If the world produced meat and dairy on a smaller, more ethical scale, that would be a huge improvement over the current state of affairs, but I would still abstain." "Agree entirely with what you said there Poly. I'm not against people eating meat or dairy, I'm absolutely against how it's currently conducted with little to no disregard for those involved. And I too wouldn't participate in it even if it was changed just for personally not seeing the need to, but it woukd be infinitely better." put this way, i agree for sure
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	Yeah that would be the result if the whole population changed overnight but it would be much more gradual. I can't say for sure what would happen but at a guess cow populations would drop to a number similar to horses. Everything else I couldn't even say, it would take so long and so many other things would. Change in that time.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	No one wants your dodgy meat Ars
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	Its funny seeing Ars struggle to get attention
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	Beat me too it Doof
RadicalEd 09.06.16	"So does no one want to discuss the environmental benefits, health benefits, ethical benefits, and economic benefits of cultured meat because they don't know enough about it or what?" Just a quick respone from my phone, will rejoin discussion towmorrow. But if (I think it's really more a question of when) cultured meat is a (financially) viable alternative, I'd go back to eating meat with no qualms.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	No one wants your dodgy arse meat ALA
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	Arse meat? I dont like being eaten out D00f
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	You guys are idiots. If you did even a little research, you'd understand that cultured meat is the solution to a number of problems. It's made of the same exact elements as meat, is leaner and without antibiotics so it's therefore better for you, is far cheaper to produce, doesn't result in animal death (since it's cloning animal muscle tissue) and far less land is needed to produce it, benefitting the environment. It could help people in poverty, people who like meat, but feel guilty, people who are concerned about factory pollution caused by the meat industry and much more. The only challenge is that current meat companies are going to fight it, so it's important to support it now so it can actually become widespread.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	I'd try this test tube stuff, I can't wait for the advertising - will they still show animals to keep up the illusion, or show highly competent looking scientists like for toothpaste
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	No one responds seriously "You guys are idiots"
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	It's a very similar method to how people clone hearts for transplant. But it'd be a cow's muscle instead.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	For brand names I'm thinking instead of quorn you could have maybe korn, I can't see any issue with that
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	id be stoked if there was super cheap chicken available grown in a test tube or some shit, cheap high protein food and no bird sacrifice sorry for not responding to the discussion more tied up at work a bit, i think ive basically made my opinion clear anyway
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	Plus of course the GOAT clone meat brand Limp Brisket when you want to pull out all the stops
guitarded_chuck 09.06.16	Nu Meat
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	Chuck we're going to be millionaires
Pajolero 09.06.16	Started out for health reasons, then continued for ethical and environmental as well. Been vegan going on over two years now, and don't really see myself ever going back. To me it just feels like the most logical thing to do.
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	@Doof: Supermeat's advertisement video is really dumbed down, but it's entertaining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSD0_I1MwqU Kinda like a commercial, but longer.
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	i remember i watched a vegan documentary once and one of the closing lines was that another perk of being an old man vegan was that "the flag still rises"
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	I'll check them out, in all seriousness it is pretty interesting they're trying to do this
ScuroFantasma 09.06.16	I'd be open to clone meat. I think it's way too early to be discussing it as an alternative at the moment but I fully support the idea if it's everything it promises.
DoofusWainwright 09.06.16	I watched the same one..."The flag still rises...but unfortunately your balls start smelling like mildew" I wasn't sure it was the correct note to end on
ShinjiIkari 09.06.16	it was. though personally, i prefer the smell of schwety balls in the morning
Polyethylene 09.06.16	I think supermeat sounds like an amazing idea. That's a win for basically everyone. Sure, some people would still insist upon the real thing, but most wouldn't care. Eventually I think old school meat would only come from specialty sources like some old-timey farm, not a hellfuck factory.
Typhoon24 09.06.16	andre 3000 woke up one day and said 'yo fuck this' and had a burger and a blunt
Polyethylene 09.06.16	"the word ethic has been said 46 times" We're discussing lifeforms as commodity, that was kinda inevitable Ornsteinman. Also what up Pajolero, a vegan who also 5'd Angel Dust and Goat, let's get married
Egarran 09.06.16	Skip lab meat, let's get directly to that sweet, sweet astronaut paste. But in a VR environment, where our tastebuds are manipulated to sense the best steak ever. As a bonus, it will hasten our colonization of the galaxy.
ArsMoriendi 09.06.16	One step at a time Egarran lol
Pajolero 09.06.16	Polyethylene, I'm down for it so long as you're in charge of picking out the outfits. Or we could always go naked, of course.
Polyethylene 09.07.16	Let's go naked, to be closer to the aminals xox
smaugman 09.07.16	you want more attention u whore
Polyethylene 09.07.16	smaug you're making me blush srsly
smaugman 09.07.16	hehe bbe
SlackContortion 10.03.16	Gotta love the fucktarded arguments coming from LordePots.
Egarran 10.03.16	At least he makes an argument. And thus he will gain more followers than you.
guitarded_chuck 10.03.16	cause all the matters on the interweb is followers South park taught me this
Egarran 10.03.16	I can understand why you are not a fan of the concept.
Polyethylene 10.03.16	yeah there was some fucktarded stuff said itt but I found it entertaining at the very least