Frank Turner Tape Deck Heart
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bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.



What's that got to do with anything? He's not NOT a capitalist, just as most of us are not NOT capitalists. He's openly a libertarian, which as I have already stated I disagree with immensely. I don't think that is a controversial opinion to hold in any way, nor does it in any way inform my opinion of his music, as evidenced by my love for 3/5ths of his records.



@ wabbit



Calm down. People can talk about politics without being told to shut up. If you're not interested, don't read the posts.

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


You took him saying he's libertarian and made assumptions from that he didn't specify

Digging: $uicideboy$ and Getter - Radical $uicide

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.



No I didn't, I took him saying he was a libertarian and then proceeded to very briefly outline my disapproval of libertarianism as a political philosophy on the basis of a comment by another user. Frankly (no pun intended) I doubt Frank is a particularly staunch libertarian at all, and I suspect it is incorrect to lump him in just one political category. At the same time I don't know exactly what he thinks about everything, nor do I really care that much. I just think libertarianism is pretty stupid in lots of ways. If I was in the market for making unfounded accusations about him on the basis of political comments he has made in recent times then I would accuse him of being a Tory like The Guardian did (which I think was pathetic).



What I do know for sure is that he's a really genuine, lovely guy and that he's just dropped an unfortunate clanger of a record.

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


Libertarianism just relates to promotion of civil liberties, which most people believe in anyway, so I'm not sure why you think so strongly against it

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

That's just a stupid thing to say. Libertarianism as a political philosophy does far more than just talk about civil liberties. As I said before, Libertarianism does not equate to "Civil liberties". Obviously I believe in civil liberties, I'm a very liberal person in most social regards.



Seriously just go on the Wikipedia page and read about it, because you are either just winding me up for the sake of it or you don't actually have a clue what you're talking about.

SeaAnemone
April 25th 2013


21401 Comments


"libertarianism" is easily one of the more annoying flavor of the month trend things
john locke was a self-interested sociopath
it's just a label that gives idiot rednecks another rallying cry without them realizing what they're yelling about, and yeah as a political philosophy it's very thin

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


I know what I'm talking about.


In North America, maybe it talks about broader ideas including the economy. But not here. You can't
compare him to an ultra conservative in the US because they both identify by a term which has
different meanings in different places. Even your wikipedia page says that.

Outside of the US it's a much more socially based term. It's possible to be a Libertarian Capitalist,
or a Libertarian Socialist. Hell it's not even mutually exclusive with communism.


wabbit
April 25th 2013


7057 Comments


Once we have global governance libertarianism makes more sense than socialism but as it stand I dunno.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@fish.



You clearly don't know what you're talking about judging from "Libertarianism just relates to promotion of civil liberties" because that is not what the word means! That is just one part of it. I really cannot understand what you are struggling with here.



Obviously there are different versions of it but the universal founding principle of Libertarianism as a political philosophy is a lack of state involvement and that, as I have already mentioned at least once, is something I think is highly irresponsible.



I will admit that comparing him to Ron Paul was a bit of an exaggeration, but Ron Paul is, in essence, a libertarian and I am sure that, in many ways, their political ideas are not all that dissimilar, leaving aside Ron Paul's ultra conservative social views (which actually make him rather a hypocrite anyway).

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ wabbit



In theory obviously libertarianism is quite a nice idea, but unfortunately we don't live in a theoretical world. For the record, in case you were implying it, I am left-wing but I wouldn't identify as a socialist.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

On another issue, 'Plain Sailing Weather' really reminds me of something else. Can anyone figure out what it might be? It's doing my brain in.

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


No jesus christ how hard is this to understand? You just keep talking about the
American definition.

Libertarianism is a reduction in state involvement in people's personal lives, not necessarily in
economic terms relating to the free market and less state intervention within it.

Kris.
April 25th 2013


13551 Comments

Album Rating: 3.0

Frankly (no pun intended) I doubt Frank is a particularly staunch libertarian at all, and I suspect it is incorrect to lump him in just one political category.






from frankturner.com/contact-faq/



"15.What are your politics? Are you a protest singer? Nope, no protest singing from here. I suppose I could be called a libertarian, though I prefer “classical liberal” as a label, if I have to have one. I am not a socialist. More pointedly, I’m not an activist, not trying to promulgate a message or change anyone’s mind. I prefer to leave that stuff at the door these days. Politics is divisive, by definition; I try to make music that is inclusive."





just pointin that out

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


I'm starting to wonder if even Frank Turner knows what he's talking about if he considers himself a
"classical liberal" but "not right wing"

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@Kris.

"Classic liberal" is a term that is, more or less, the same thing as "libertarian". In fact if

anything it is a term that implies right-wing libertarianism. Everything else he says there seems to

agree with what I said so thanks.



@ fish.

I'm not reciting the American definition, I'm reciting what the word means, and I still think it's

an irresponsible idea.



I have never said that he believes in free market economics at all, I have just implied that free

market economics is, in my opinion, an inevitable consequence of attempts at libertarian government.



A lack of state involvement in people's personal lives does not JUST mean that people have civil

liberties (for example it would also mean no nationalised healthcare), nor does it JUST mean that

free market economics prevail. I think every aspect of the state having little or no involvement in

people's lives is HUGELY irresponsible.

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


You're reciting what the word means. In America.


And no, capitalism isn't an inevitable consequence of libertarianism, that's stupid.

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


Some political scholars assert that in most countries the terms "libertarian" and "libertarianism" are synonymous with anarchism, and some express disapproval of capitalists calling themselves libertarians.

In the United States, where the meaning of liberalism has parted significantly from classical liberalism, classical liberalism has largely been renamed libertarianism and is associated with "economically conservative"


from that wikipedia page you wanted me to read


And a reduction in the state doesn't always mean the free market will be increased. Communism is usually anarchist itself.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.



No I am not. Mate, seriously, I dunno what your problem is but this is just getting ludicrous and very tedious and boring. You seem to have this weird idea that the word has a different meaning in America to everywhere else. In fact you're basically talking as if it only really exists in America, which is weird in itself. It doesn't. All I have said in my definition of libertarianism is "a lack of state involvement" and, as you seem to accept that the word does mean that, I struggle to understand why you keep insisting I am exclusively using an "American definition" of the term.



It's not really that stupid when you think about it. How does any economic system work if the state is not able to involve itself in people's lives? By definition it is going to have to be by utilising an extremely liberal form of economics. I confess that maybe "free market" is the wrong term to use (although it is also not a term that is interchangeable with "capitalism" as you seem to think), but I was just trying to use a term that was easily understandable.

anarchistfish
April 25th 2013


25496 Comments


In the US "libertarianism" is defined much more by economic liberties than the term is elsewhere. It's
possible to separate economic and civil liberties and treat them apart. That's what you don't seem to
understand.

How does any economic system work if the state is not able to involve itself in people's lives?

God knows if it works, but communism doesn't rely on a centrally planned economy.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013


870 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.



Some political scholars do believe that, yes, and in principle I agree with them. Some communists have also identified themselves as being libertarian as well, which I personally think is completely moronic in every way possible considering that (however they may try to dress it up) a founding principle of communism is control over the way people live their lives.



The same could also be said to be true of capitalism in a way, since it is also a form of controlled economy (although nowadays it seems to be extremely loosely controlled, hence my insinuation that an extremely liberal economic system would be needed in a libertarian state). I accept all of that.



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