I feel like the question of how music is different from other art forms does kind of relate to the question of Hope Six’s reception in a weird way, but maybe I’ll think of how to be more specific

Ach, page break. Last comment of previous page prob more pertinent

> I think we mentally separate lyrics from music quite a bit.

a lot of people do but i think this tends to be more universal for people who identify in any way as music enthusiasts in a general sense, and a lot less universal for people who identify as big fans of certain bands/artists in particular. at least in my observation a lot of the latter seem to find personal meaning in lyrics, even for mainstream artists a lot of the time, and a lot of the way they discuss the music seems to invoke the lyrics more than any other aspect

> Whether we should is a different question.

i think for people who tend to listen to lots of music by lots of different artists, the reality that lyrics are often perfunctory at best kind of incentivises a habit of ignoring them more often than not.

idk maybe i misunderstood the conversation as a whole?

when you said "when we do and don’t award style points for difficult subject matter that in theory doesn’t involve the speaker, and what we take away if they mess it up"

my real response would be that, for the relatively small subset of music that not only leans into its lyrics but chooses to approach difficult subject matter, there should be some degree of responsibility to approaching the subject with good faith and tact, cuz lets face it difficult subject matter is most of the time a euphemism for "something social or otherwise that negatively affects people, sometimes other people but sometimes the speaker"

broadly i think its ok for different people to value lyrics differently but it seems fundamentally necessary to try to weigh them differently on a heuristic basis when some music doesnt use them at all, some music practically centers them entirely (some of dylans best known work is prob the biggest example) and for some music theyre just kinda there seemingly as if a non-creative force decided they just have to be

Album Rating: 3.7

> Whether we should is a different question.

i think the role lyrics play to whichsoever music is situational, varies massively from genre to genre, and does not rly lend itself to this kind of generalised conversation. hope six (specifically the infamous opener if we're discoursing its reception) doesn't afford its audience any possibility of distance from either its subject matter or its flat-handed style of description, so the issue of separation is a little moot here

I see what you mean. It sounded maybe like I was defending PJ, but I haven’t heard the album. I just meant that once in a while I think we evaluate an album that fell short of its communicative/political goals in different ways. This I suppose depends on the matrix of how ambitious we thought the goal was, how virtuous; how short they fell; how good the instruments sound.

Can you think of an album where someone really went for it politically/otherwise, fell short, but you were still like, “Ooh, hey!” (good)

Album Rating: 3.7

oh yeah, i didn't feel this was a pro/con PJ convo, more that she maybe wasn't the most helpful starting point in this context lol

"This I suppose depends on the matrix of how ambitious we thought the goal was, how virtuous; how short they fell; how good the instruments sound."

yes exactly, and even then half of Actually Caring about the lyrics is gonna be down to whether or not they're discernibly enunciated for a large chunk of listeners lol

"Can you think of an album where someone really went for it politically/otherwise, fell short, but you were still like, “Ooh, hey!” (good)"

like, loop back to Abbey Road thread, but does anyone really listen to Animals for the political commentary at all now?

>but does anyone really listen to Animals for the political commentary at all now

you could well argue that for a band with that level of following pretty much no one has ever listened to animals primarily for the political commentary

at the same time, music and art being turned into more and more of a mass production mass consumption industry like everything else (have a cigar, welcome to the machine) and the normalisation of capitalist culture convincing people that it's okay actually to stay in your lane and not give a shit about anyone else and aggressively pursue nothing but your own material wellbeing (dogs) have absolutely not receded whatsoever as problems.

re: pink floyds deliberate messages that arent just the usual antiwar drum still retaining some relevance, before ppl wonder why i bring up two consecutive albums not just the one

Album Rating: 4.0

I like how Roger Waters names actual political and cultural figures in Pigs (Three Different Ones) so me?

yea that was based

Album Rating: 4.0

Wasn’t it Republican Paul Ryan who said he loved Rage Against the Machine and was playing their songs at one of his campaign rallies before Tom Morello told him to fuck off and that he’s the kind of machine they’re raging at



He doesn’t listen to lyrics clearly

establishment dullards coopting anti-establishment art, or on a related note being functionally incapable of understanding all but the thickest of satire, is nothing new under the sun. it only looks extra stupid when done by an actual politician but otherwise take look at who most of fight club's fans are lol

Album Rating: 5.0

I hate Paul Ryan too but this album is a classic!