Which band caused more damage to Metal: Pantera or Korn?

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what have Korn done exactly? (for the uninitiated here, because I don’t understand the reference)

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Pantera imo, Korn didn't influence a generation of high-school bullies with toxic masculinity.

Album Rating: 4.0

"Korn didn't influence a generation of high-school bullies with toxic masculinity."



That's very debatable, lol

Album Rating: 2.0

Pantera didn't make kids bullies any more than RATM made kids communists come on now

Album Rating: 2.0

Maybe but their dudebro shtick definitely played a part in why metalcore and emo had so much homophobic backlash in the 2000s.

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I think the idea is that people attach themselves to their already held ideals and perspectives

Unless actual grooming / coercion is involved etc.

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Not defending this sort of behaviour/ ideology tho. I abhor most of what this band and their ilk stands for

you can't seriously be blaming Pantera for homophobia
not to defend Pantera but come on

Album Rating: 3.5

I don't think anyone is blaming Pantera for homophobia, moreso that the uber-masculinity of their music enabled toxic heterosexuality. Given how much of Pantera's rebranding was a reaction to the "gay", "girly" appearances of hair metal and a reclamation of metal for MEN, I don't think suggesting they enabled homophobes is unfair at all

Album Rating: 3.0

It’s ironic it’s always cunce named “Phil” being homophobic (Labonte, Anselmo, etc) when you look at what Philip means in Greek.

I think homophobia and hyper masculinity from insecure men would still be very prevalent considering the hundreds of years it existed before Pantera did.
in the grand scheme of things, I don't think Pantera not existing would have had a substantial effect.

Album Rating: 3.5

I really don't think you understand my point. I never said their existence had a massive impact on the history of homophobia and hyper masculinity, I said it enabled homophobia and hyper masculinity. I am arguing that while not being responsible for the history of homophobia and hyper masculinity, Pantera contributed to this history by marketing themselves through a lionized depiction of the rugged, straight, (white) man, and thus enabling their fanbase of straight white men to behave as expected. I don't give a shit if the impact is substantial in the grand scheme of things. Pantera, and the quivering, insecure dialogue spawned by them, affected my opinions on how to explore heavy metal as a kid and what metal was cool and what was gay. I think confronting this is incredibly pertinent to the moment we live in, if only that the grand scheme might see the homophobes and the hyper masculine corralled somewhere else than in heavy metal, but alas I am too wistful for my own good

thats cool man i was referring to veninblazer's comments

Album Rating: 3.5

lol

like i agree w/ you
but venin said this

"i feel like without this band [...] and the changing of the narrative to "metal must be masculine" we get rid of a solid 50% of the early 00s metalcore hate, especially the homophobic stuff."

Album Rating: 4.0

'and the changing of the narrative to "metal must be masculine"'



metal was already that, this just killed a lot of the dragons and castles and Satan and widdly woo in the lyrics mostly



this and albums like the RATM debut just showed metal bands could sing about 'other stuff'



a lot of the lyrics on this read like 'self help' (or self assertion and self discovery or whatever) and others are political - not any dragons, not really much Satan



I am not saying I personally can't enjoy a few lyrics about dragons and castles and Satan but that's just the feel everyone got with this band at the time I think anyway



they definitely played up to being a 'metal band from Texas' and all the connotations that implied though, guilty there I'd say

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It doesn't rlly need to be deeper than they just appealed to meatheads because Phil was/is kind of a meathead lol



I guess I do agree they're responsible to some degree for the kind of fandom they ultimately built and by extension the ways that fandom interacts with rock culture, but idk I can't quite make the leap to seeing them as some linchpin of heavy music's affinity for machismo

Album Rating: 4.0

I think it does Dimebag a bit dirty in particular because he’s legitimately a guitarist people dug the style of



It wasn’t just ‘Phil ‘n Friends’

Album Rating: 1.5 | Sound Off

Metal died in 1990. Pantera released Cowboys from Hell then, having already been recorded in 1989. Metal reached its creative peak in albums such as Welcome to Hell, Scream Bloody Gore, and Under the Sign of the Black Mark, elevating the genre to a trve art form. However, thanks to Vulgar Display of Power and Prong, all of this potential has been squandered, and it has been turned into gimmick ridden noise for drunk idiots (ie, the lowest common denominator - stop trying to turn underground metal into lilbitchcore buttrock.)