Album Rating: 4.5

Nationalism historically has a very predictable tendency of turning to ethnic nationalism though and most extreme right wing people publicly identify as just nationalists as a cover. With regards to this album specifically, according to metal archives it was dedicated to Stepan Bandera who was a Ukrainian ultranationalist during WW2. His organization was responsible for an ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands of Polish people.



Just noticed this was mentioned on the previous page, but with too much charity to Bandera. Dude was an ethnonationalist, not personally killing polish people doesn't absolve him.

Album Rating: 4.5

I understand that, especially given the context here and what Bandera's organization has done. I wasn't trying to downplay or justify it if that's how my last comment came off.

Album Rating: 4.0

thread contains so much controversy, i gotta ask myself why i even bother with this band



oh yeah riffs

Album Rating: 4.5

Basically sums up why I listen to BM lol

oceandrowned its ok man

nothing to be gained arguing with privileged americans who actually have the choice to "not care" because it doesn't affect them in any way

"oh but they said theyre not nazis so clearly they cannot be nazis. why would anyone lie about that?"

these are the same people who insist that art is/must be apolitical, that there is nothing to interpret, that people who interpret are just crazy sjws, that english teachers are a waste of time etc.

didnt know we had other ex-commie boomers on here, you're not alone my friend

anti-semitism is still very widespread to this day. in fact even in america i notice that nation of islam bullshit is starting to resurface again lately with their views that "blacks are the real jews" lmao

but its always been the same. cant stop sheltered metalbros from listening to their overrated nazi crap

Album Rating: 4.0

We've had this discussion over and over and over again though. People also still listen to Wagner, people watch Disney movies, read novels from the nineteenth century or before (Don Quixote, etc) who aren't at all fair to black people and Jews, etc etc etc. I can imagine that among all these painters, sculptors, directors, writers, architects, musicians there are so many who have questionable to toxic views. Yet people still read, watch, listen, etc.

I'm the same way I must admit, I absolutely do not condone the views that these works sometimes contain or that their creators believe in at all. Racism and discrimination in any way, shape or form are absolutely horrible and I'd be mega happy if these disappeared forever. Yet I still read, listen and watch.

The lyrics from what I gleaned seem to have more to do with nationalism.
Being nationalist is b44d nowadays didn't you get the memo?

Drudkh's music is clean people, go cry elsewhere.

shut up maco adults are talking

Album Rating: 4.0

Nationalism is fundamentally an evil ideology however it manifests, it immediately focuses on othering and dehumanizing people outside the group.



What a fucking shocker then that that manifestation seems to consistently be in fascist and racist ideologies.

shut up maco adults are talking

Talking about the same boring shit. Lame

> People also still listen to Wagner, people watch Disney movies, read novels from the nineteenth century or before (Don Quixote, etc) who aren't at all fair to black people and Jews, etc etc etc.

The problem is not engaging with the media. It's engaging in a way that is wilfully ignorant of its problematic aspects in order to avoid cognitive dissonance and personal discomfort. It's a less malignant form of intellectual dishonesty.

More specifically, the problem is deliberately removing art from its context and selectively making excuses for why you don't care / shouldn't care about some of its aspects. People are inextricably linked to the culture and society that surrounds and shapes them, and their creations are inextricably linked to their own person and ideas. Someone who is interested in serious understanding of a work of art, whether as a hobby or as a critic or within academia, should ideally not ignore any of this. To make the claim that a person would have produced the same artistic expression if they had held different views, is simply ignorant; it is an extension of the under-educated anti-intellectual mindset many people have nowadays of failing or refusing to engage with the subtext in a book or film or anything else. There's a saying on American parts of the internet, "the curtains were fucking blue", that tends to be pretty telling of someone who views art as simply mindless entertainment and refuses to consider the fact that it may carry, WHETHER INTENTIONALLY OR NOT, deeper meaning and significance.

And furthermore, the particular examples you have chosen are very good for this argument. The creations of Wagner, Disney and Cervantes are all extremely culturally and historically relevant. They are works that people should *particularly* be interested in engaging with and understanding from as many angles as possible, to see the full ramifications of their significance.

One final point: Wagner, Disney, etc. are all long dead. Their works have been under intense scrutiny, as they should have been, and discourse and analysis surrounding them has not failed to address the points you made. Whoever still profits from those creations (in some cases no one, if we're talking about the ones that are public domain) might not be affiliated in any way with those people, and should be evaluated and considered on their own merits; who holds the rights, how much money they make, what they do with that money, who are they affiliated with etc. On the flip side, NSBM artists are contemporary. They are alive right now, making their creations right now, influencing people right now, often within their own isolated niches. They are perpetuating an underground culture of resentment and prejudice *right now*, at a time when reactionary nationalism and ethnocentrism is rising again throughout Europe and the US. At a time when society has, presumably, had enough time to grow and educate itself on why these things are wrong. It's not 1650 anymore, it's not 1850 anymore, it's not 1920 anymore.

I was going to go on further into why Eastern Europe is even more dangerous in these regards and how it plays into Russia's own imperialist ambitions and the global tensions going on right now but... maybe some other time.

Album Rating: 4.0

It's still worth taking about sadly. As long as these ridiculous and dangerous views are still there.

I'm gay and I've always had this weird relationship with Horace Andy from Massive Attack. Love his vocals on some of their tracks, but he has said stuff that disqualifies me as a person because I happen to be attracted to guys instead of girls. Luckily for me this doesn't go any further than that, but it goes to show how widespread discrimination is. Still is. Maybe forever will be. A sad thought.

Album Rating: 4.0

Oh yeah your: they are dead, these guys aren't is very valid, good point! And it is indeed very very very awful to see these views persisting and even growing again. Please do spend some words on that latter topic too park, I'd love to hear your views on that. At a later point of course, whenever it is convenient.

I find it so hard to decide that knowing these views (of for instance this artist) to then stop listening too. However it does always feel sketchy and weird listening to this album for instance. Would you say I should better stop listening altogether? What is your stance on that? I understand this is a personal question probably.

Album Rating: 4.5

There's not any substantial moral reason I can think of that you can't keep listening to Drudkh or whoever, I still do. The best pragmatic/rhetorical argument centers around whether you're giving them money to listen to them or not. Festivals like Asgardrei for example routinely feature recruiting areas for white supremacist organizations (Nokturnal Mortum, an ostensibly reformed NS band, has played that festival in recent years I think). Folks with radical beliefs can't be assumed to be benign.



Doing like Oceandrowned is doing just isn't good rhetoric regardless of good intentions.

Album Rating: 4.5

"Being nationalist is b44d nowadays didn't you get the memo?"



it's always been bad, you're just dumb as shit lol

Album Rating: 4.0

"Someone who is interested in serious understanding of a work of art"



Im not though. When i jam this its all visceral, im not interested in digging into it deeper. In fact, i prefer not to know. I like black metal's (and a lot of other music's) ability to take me to another universe, I like the mystery, and looking into it too much "grounds" it and takes some of that away. You can call it anti-intellectual, but im just not interested. Generally, i find books and movies are much more interesting to pick apart and analyze for their meaning.





"Would you say I should better stop listening altogether?"



I too would like to know how not putting this in my earholes anymore is going to improve anyone's life. Am i going to become a nazi if i continue?

you're so fucking edgy bro it's making me cringe