4/4 swing - Explanation (once and for all)
 

What is the definition of the 4/4 swing rhythm? I'm wondering how the grouping of notes is different compared to standard 4/4.

Listen to Steve Vai - The Animal if you need an example of the rhythm. Also Rage Against The Machine, Audioslave and Stevie Ray Vaughan have incorporated this rhythm in some of their songs, if I'm correct.

Feel free to provide heaps of various explanations, as I've tried to understand this before, but without succeeding.

Let's say I'm playing a standard 4/4 rhythm on my guitar. "1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 -4...etc", no problem. How can I modify the rhythm slightly so it becomes 4/4 swing?

It's tricky. I don't know exactly how to count it, but it's a quarter note followed by a quarter note triplet and an eighth note triplet. Then you repeat once more to finish out the bar.

[QUOTE=halfdeadhippo]It's tricky. I don't know exactly how to count it, but it's a quarter note followed by a quarter note triplet and an eighth note triplet. Then you repeat once more to finish out the bar.[/QUOTE]

I'm afraid I'm not quite able to visualize how that would be.

A quarter note - OK. Quarter note triplet? I don't understand why there is a triplet in the picture.

To clarify, when I use the word triplet, I mean an individual note that takes up one third of two beats. A quarter note triplet followed by an eighth note triplet (one third of a beat) produces the "shuffle rhythm" (common in most blues). If you alternate between a straight quarter note and the shuffle rhythm, you get the standard "swing rhythm" (common in a lot of jazz).

If you're thinking of the rhythm in SRV's "Pride and Joy", then you're thinking of a shuffle rhythm.

Still not quite 'there'...but coming closer.
 

So swing and shuffle is not the same thing? Well, I'm getting closer, but I'm still not quite 'there'. The worst thing is that I am able to compose swing rhythms.

I've got this composing application on my computer.

The applicatin is based on pages, with rows and columns. One instrument for each column basically. Then, different notes of the different instruments on the rows.

For standard 4/4 I use 64 rows (program default), and I add kickdrum on row 0, while I add a snare, for instance, on row 4. Then kickdrum on 8, snare on 12 etc. All the way, until I have to start over again on another page. I use to add hi-hat/tambourine on rows 0-1-2-3-4... etc or 0-2-4-6-8...etc depending on the feel I want for the track. Now, all this is fine.

Over to the 'problem'. I am quite convinced that this is the method for creating 4/4 swing:
Still using the same application. Edit the rows so you end up using only 48 rows. Place a basskick on 0, as well as on row 3, but a snare on 6. Then basskick on 12, basskick on 15, snare on 18 etc. Then, for the ultimate rhythm atmosphere, include a closed hi-hat in the following pattern: rows: Well, basically you put a closed hi-hat on 0-3-6-9-12-15-18 etc. But except for the hi-hat on row 0; you also add a hi-hat on the beat just BEFORE 3-6-9-12-15-18 etc, making it: 0-2-3-5-6-8-9-11-12... etc etc. Do you see the coherence?

Well I do - for what concerns the application. However, I always fail when trying to apply it when I only sit with my guitar!!

What do you think? I'm very close to understanding it. Maybe it's just me putting too little effort in it. It's late in the night, and I've been listening to music almost all day. I got to have break, and a new go tomorrow. In the meantime maybe someone has provided a few assisting words as well.

More later.

Instead of counting:

1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4

Try counting:

1 And-Uh 2 And-Uh 3 And-Uh 4

Are you talking for drums or guitar?

[QUOTE=The Krabsman]Are you talking for drums or guitar?[/QUOTE]


Swing is swing-- it's a rhythm and not going to differ between drums or guitar.

[QUOTE=joas]Swing is swing-- it's a rhythm and not going to differ between drums or guitar.[/QUOTE]

Well, for guitar, you will rarely find yourself doing it.

[URL="http://media.putfile.com/swing31"]http://media.putfile.com/swing31[/URL]

Would you consider that a swing rhythm?

Flamencology is right. You need to count 3 triplets for each beat instead of counting 2 quavers to play a swing rhythm.
Ie, count out One-and-uh Two-and-uh Three-and-uh Four-and-uh

You play on these beats. One_____ Two___Uh Three_____ Four___Uh

You know, swing is not just 12/8. We can do much better. Try again.

Thanks to everyone for all of the replies.

I think Flopfoot had an interesting explanation in his last post. I'm going to try it.

[QUOTE=Flopfoot]Flamencology is right. You need to count 3 triplets for each beat instead of counting 2 quavers to play a swing rhythm.
Ie, count out One-and-uh Two-and-uh Three-and-uh Four-and-uh

You play on these beats. One_____ Two___Uh Three_____ Four___Uh[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I believe we're saying the same thing, only you know how to actually count it. :thumb:

I had the same problem when we played swing in Jazz Band... I never did figure it out, but now I understand it a little more.

[QUOTE=Flamencology]Instead of counting:

1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4

Try counting:

1 And-Uh 2 And-Uh 3 And-Uh 4[/QUOTE]

GOOD ONE! It's more of a feeling, which then translates to how you are playing. My old guitar techer 15 years back tried to explain that whole triplet feel to me, I learned but it did take some time.

it's a quarter note followed by two eigth notes, but the eigth notes are swung, meaning it is the equivalent of a quarter note eighth note triplet.

But i guess if you don't know what swinging is, my explanation would probably be meaningless. I"m actually confusing myself with it.

You absolutley must swing on guitar. You should find yourself swinging just as much as the rest of the band if you are playing a swing tune.

And swing is difficult to understand without hearing it in person. But basicly, it is based around triplets. If you can, try to find a good teacher for at least one session so you can really HEAR what swing is supposed to be like.

It seems like the rhythm I've always thought of as 4/4 swing... may be shuffle rhythm. Or is it the exact same thing?

I hear great similarities between, let's say many of Stevie Ray Vaughan's music, and some of Rage Against the Machine. It's just that there is quite a difference in the approach. Maybe they use variations of the same idea, I'm not completely sure... I'll have to explore it further.

I just listened through several Rage Against the Machine songs, and I'm not sure if there is anything special after all. That said, a song like Guerilla Radio got a certain rhythm.

I think the best example of the rhythm I'm thinking about is to be heard in Steve Vai's The Animal. Especially notice how the hi-hat goes.

doo (hi hat/ride and bass)
doo/chh [if you use snare here] (hi hat/ride and bass)
doo-doo (hi hat/ride and bass)
chh (hi hat/ride, bass, and muted rim-shot thing)

That's my vague, simplistic view of it. Then again, it's not [i]that[/i] straight, because obviously it's swung. The bass drum goes, straight, for all 4 beats: 1-2-3-4, while the hi-hat is the "rhythms" that I wrote out as seen above, and the snare is on the fourth beat.

A lot of the time, drummers leave out the bass drum completely, and use the snare on the 2nd and 4th beats instead of just the 4th.

On guitar... I think I play this when I do swingier type stuff:

1 2 3 4-and

or

1 2-and 3 4

That would be a shuffle. A shuffle is swung, but swing is not a shuffle.
What swing is is a modification of eigth notes(And sixteenths, etc). The thing that seperates a shuffle from a normal groove is the eigth note timing. The 8ths are played as triplets with the middle removed rather than straight 8ths(Kind of. Thats one of the close approximations of what it is, but its really a feel thing that can't really be techincally written). The rhythym being played is basicly unimportant, the swingingness of it is defined by the interpretation of 8th notes.

I've just realized the importance of the hi-hat when creating these rhythms I'm speaking of.

Listen to this. When creating the rhythm in the music application I use, I place a kickdrum on row 0, snare on 6, kickdrum on 12, kick on 18 etc. Then, the hi hat comes in. It is quite important for defining the rhythmic atmosphere. I will at least put a hi-hat on every third row (0, 3, 6, 9 etc). Then, to emphasize the rhythm even more, I will add another hi-hat just before the 3rd row, 6th row etc. So it looks like 0 (the first hit) 2-3 5-6 8-9 etc. The hi-hat sound will be like: ch (row 0, beginning hit), ch-ch, ch-ch, ch-ch. As oppsed to regular 4/4, you'd probably get: ch, ch-ch-ch, ch-ch-ch, ch-ch-ch.

The hi-hat does the "icing of the cake", I think.

I'll provide three examples I have created. The first example is named "compgrooves" (using percussion instruments only) and compares regular 4/4 to the alternative rhythm. If interested, listen to the sample, and see if you can tell when the rhythm changes, and when it's standard 4/4 and when it's not.

The next I have called "Rhythm Explorer" and also compares two rhythms, but I also included a bass in this one.

The third and last one is based entirely on this special rhythm which I enjoy. It is just a basic track in which I hope you notice a swinging feel, or how to describe it.

Here are the links (BEWARE: right-click and choose 'save as...'):

Compgrooves: [url]http://apple-joe.tripod.com/Compgrooves.mp3[/url]
Rhythm Explorer: [url]http://apple-joe.tripod.com/Rhythm_Explorer.mp3[/url]
Rhythmic exploration: [url]http://apple-joe.tripod.com/rexp.mp3[/url]



I hope the links work after all.

EDIT: By the way. Sample (instrument sounds) credits to "Archyx" for Rhythm Explorer and Compgrooves. Credits to J. Striker for Rhytmic Exploration.

Everything posted so far in this thread is simplistic and inaccurate:

1) The long-short ratio of swing eighths in not always 2:1 but varies considerably. In fast tempos swing eighths are closer to straight eighths.

2) When the eighths are swing eighths, the sixteenths are straight. A 4:3 feel is implicit.

3) A lot of the swing feel has more to do with subtle (and unsubtle) dynamic accentuation. There is a tendency for the odd eighths to be stressed.

Thanks, Ned

Anyway, swing is a very, very loose rhythm. Few musicians will play a perfect three-to-the-beat swing. While the definitions up to this point are not incorrect, in a real-life setting, swing is just the feel everyone in the band puts on their own playing. Moreover, swing music at high tempos tends to swing less, and slow swing swings more. Therefore, swung eighths, which is what we're referring to when we talk about this triplet business, could be defined as any rhythm that falls between two eighth notes and a dotted eighth/sixteenth.

To get even more complicated, swing music has an accent on the second and fourth beats of each measure. This is not a compositional device, however -- you won't see it written out on a chart. This accent comes from the common swing drum pattern and the natural rhythm of the song -- this accent is not always perfectly on the two and four. In fact, individual musicians, especially at the highest level, usually have their own interpretation of the beat, and can be said to play "behind" or "on top of" the beat.

The only way to get a personal understanding of swing is to stop all the technical talk and listen to the people around you, especially the drummer. Copy his eighth note; if you play straight eighths or even with a different interpretation of the swing it will sound wrong. As to writing it into a computer . . . well, that's why computers haven't replaced people yet, isn't it?

You can't notate "swing", you can kind of show it rhytmically what it's close to, but you can write it down exactly, all you have to do is listen to a lot of jazz and see how different players interpriate(sp?) swing.

I've got Band-In-A-Box now, and I've listened through a few song examples. It seems like 'shuffle' is the thing. Each song with shuffle somewhere in the name got the special rhythm. I've found a swing song or two where the certain rhythm did NOT appear, so I'm leaning towards shuffle. At one point I thought there was no difference between the two of them.

to understand the difference between shuffle and swing:
Shuffle is the primary beat/rhythm used in 1950s RocknRoll. (very simple, but easier to comprehend)

Rather than thinking Swing 4/4, think Swung 16ths. The last 1/4 note of each group is the note that has the final swung effect on it - if that helps! it would be so much easier if I could notate it.. oh well :)

Well, how would the last 1/4 of a shuffled 16th rhythm be, then?

EDIT: I've understood lately, that one might be able to do a lot by defining the drums, especially the hi-hat's. There are several nuances which will make it groove even more. A thought I've got the recent days is; maybe that's all RATM/Audioslave is doing - maybe there is nothing special about the time-signature.

Have a listen to the following songs:

Renegades of Funk
Sleep now in the Fire
Guerilla Radio
Snakecharmer

What do you think? Shuffle/swing, or just tricky drum work?

in respons to Popup-Box's question: Renegades of Funk for example definately isn't swing rhythm. It's weird, because i've met a lot of people who have deeply trouble with this swing rhythm but to me it's totaly normal. I can hear it and say straight away if it's swing rhythm or straight. It's so simple to me to hear the difference. I always thought everyone heras it aswell....O_O