4/4 swing - Explanation (once and for all)

Popup-Box · 10-27-2005, 02:34 PM

What is the definition of the 4/4 swing rhythm? I'm wondering how the grouping of notes is different compared to standard 4/4.

Listen to Steve Vai - The Animal if you need an example of the rhythm. Also Rage Against The Machine, Audioslave and Stevie Ray Vaughan have incorporated this rhythm in some of their songs, if I'm correct.

Feel free to provide heaps of various explanations, as I've tried to understand this before, but without succeeding.

Let's say I'm playing a standard 4/4 rhythm on my guitar. "1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 -4...etc", no problem. How can I modify the rhythm slightly so it becomes 4/4 swing?

halfdeadhippo · 10-27-2005, 02:58 PM

It's tricky. I don't know exactly how to count it, but it's a quarter note followed by a quarter note triplet and an eighth note triplet. Then you repeat once more to finish out the bar.

Popup-Box · 10-27-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfdeadhippo

It's tricky. I don't know exactly how to count it, but it's a quarter note followed by a quarter note triplet and an eighth note triplet. Then you repeat once more to finish out the bar.

I'm afraid I'm not quite able to visualize how that would be.

A quarter note - OK. Quarter note triplet? I don't understand why there is a triplet in the picture.

halfdeadhippo · 10-27-2005, 05:33 PM

To clarify, when I use the word triplet, I mean an individual note that takes up one third of two beats. A quarter note triplet followed by an eighth note triplet (one third of a beat) produces the "shuffle rhythm" (common in most blues). If you alternate between a straight quarter note and the shuffle rhythm, you get the standard "swing rhythm" (common in a lot of jazz).

If you're thinking of the rhythm in SRV's "Pride and Joy", then you're thinking of a shuffle rhythm.

Popup-Box · 10-27-2005, 06:30 PM

So swing and shuffle is not the same thing? Well, I'm getting closer, but I'm still not quite 'there'. The worst thing is that I am able to compose swing rhythms.

I've got this composing application on my computer.

The applicatin is based on pages, with rows and columns. One instrument for each column basically. Then, different notes of the different instruments on the rows.

For standard 4/4 I use 64 rows (program default), and I add kickdrum on row 0, while I add a snare, for instance, on row 4. Then kickdrum on 8, snare on 12 etc. All the way, until I have to start over again on another page. I use to add hi-hat/tambourine on rows 0-1-2-3-4... etc or 0-2-4-6-8...etc depending on the feel I want for the track. Now, all this is fine.

Over to the 'problem'. I am quite convinced that this is the method for creating 4/4 swing:
Still using the same application. Edit the rows so you end up using only 48 rows. Place a basskick on 0, as well as on row 3, but a snare on 6. Then basskick on 12, basskick on 15, snare on 18 etc. Then, for the ultimate rhythm atmosphere, include a closed hi-hat in the following pattern: rows: Well, basically you put a closed hi-hat on 0-3-6-9-12-15-18 etc. But except for the hi-hat on row 0; you also add a hi-hat on the beat just BEFORE 3-6-9-12-15-18 etc, making it: 0-2-3-5-6-8-9-11-12... etc etc. Do you see the coherence?

Well I do - for what concerns the application. However, I always fail when trying to apply it when I only sit with my guitar!!

What do you think? I'm very close to understanding it. Maybe it's just me putting too little effort in it. It's late in the night, and I've been listening to music almost all day. I got to have break, and a new go tomorrow. In the meantime maybe someone has provided a few assisting words as well.

More later.

Flamencology · 10-27-2005, 09:44 PM

Instead of counting:

1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4

Try counting:

1 And-Uh 2 And-Uh 3 And-Uh 4

Krabsworth · 10-27-2005, 10:09 PM

Are you talking for drums or guitar?

joas · 10-27-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Krabsman

Are you talking for drums or guitar?

Swing is swing-- it's a rhythm and not going to differ between drums or guitar.

Krabsworth · 10-27-2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joas

Swing is swing-- it's a rhythm and not going to differ between drums or guitar.

Well, for guitar, you will rarely find yourself doing it.

Krabsworth · 10-27-2005, 11:24 PM

[URL="http://media.putfile.com/swing31"]http://media.putfile.com/swing31[/url]

Would you consider that a swing rhythm?

Flopfoot · 10-27-2005, 11:58 PM

Flamencology is right. You need to count 3 triplets for each beat instead of counting 2 quavers to play a swing rhythm.
Ie, count out One-and-uh Two-and-uh Three-and-uh Four-and-uh

You play on these beats. One_____ Two___Uh Three_____ Four___Uh

Ned · 10-28-2005, 04:36 AM

You know, swing is not just 12/8. We can do much better. Try again.

Popup-Box · 10-28-2005, 04:37 AM

Thanks to everyone for all of the replies.

I think Flopfoot had an interesting explanation in his last post. I'm going to try it.

halfdeadhippo · 10-28-2005, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flopfoot

Flamencology is right. You need to count 3 triplets for each beat instead of counting 2 quavers to play a swing rhythm.
Ie, count out One-and-uh Two-and-uh Three-and-uh Four-and-uh

You play on these beats. One_____ Two___Uh Three_____ Four___Uh

Thank you. I believe we're saying the same thing, only you know how to actually count it.

HomeCatMickey8 · 10-28-2005, 08:05 AM

I had the same problem when we played swing in Jazz Band... I never did figure it out, but now I understand it a little more.

Swede in L.A · 10-28-2005, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamencology

Instead of counting:

1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4

Try counting:

1 And-Uh 2 And-Uh 3 And-Uh 4

GOOD ONE! It's more of a feeling, which then translates to how you are playing. My old guitar techer 15 years back tried to explain that whole triplet feel to me, I learned but it did take some time.

KSas · 10-28-2005, 07:33 PM

it's a quarter note followed by two eigth notes, but the eigth notes are swung, meaning it is the equivalent of a quarter note eighth note triplet.

KSas · 10-28-2005, 07:33 PM

But i guess if you don't know what swinging is, my explanation would probably be meaningless. I"m actually confusing myself with it.

Caleb3221 · 10-28-2005, 08:10 PM

You absolutley must swing on guitar. You should find yourself swinging just as much as the rest of the band if you are playing a swing tune.

And swing is difficult to understand without hearing it in person. But basicly, it is based around triplets. If you can, try to find a good teacher for at least one session so you can really HEAR what swing is supposed to be like.

Popup-Box · 10-29-2005, 08:24 PM

It seems like the rhythm I've always thought of as 4/4 swing... may be shuffle rhythm. Or is it the exact same thing?

I hear great similarities between, let's say many of Stevie Ray Vaughan's music, and some of Rage Against the Machine. It's just that there is quite a difference in the approach. Maybe they use variations of the same idea, I'm not completely sure... I'll have to explore it further.

I just listened through several Rage Against the Machine songs, and I'm not sure if there is anything special after all. That said, a song like Guerilla Radio got a certain rhythm.

I think the best example of the rhythm I'm thinking about is to be heard in Steve Vai's The Animal. Especially notice how the hi-hat goes.

10-27-2005, 02:34 PM	#1
Popup-Box Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 636	4/4 swing - Explanation (once and for all) What is the definition of the 4/4 swing rhythm? I'm wondering how the grouping of notes is different compared to standard 4/4. Listen to Steve Vai - The Animal if you need an example of the rhythm. Also Rage Against The Machine, Audioslave and Stevie Ray Vaughan have incorporated this rhythm in some of their songs, if I'm correct. Feel free to provide heaps of various explanations, as I've tried to understand this before, but without succeeding. Let's say I'm playing a standard 4/4 rhythm on my guitar. "1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 -4...etc", no problem. How can I modify the rhythm slightly so it becomes 4/4 swing?

10-27-2005, 06:30 PM	#5
Popup-Box Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 636	Still not quite 'there'...but coming closer. So swing and shuffle is not the same thing? Well, I'm getting closer, but I'm still not quite 'there'. The worst thing is that I am able to compose swing rhythms. I've got this composing application on my computer. The applicatin is based on pages, with rows and columns. One instrument for each column basically. Then, different notes of the different instruments on the rows. For standard 4/4 I use 64 rows (program default), and I add kickdrum on row 0, while I add a snare, for instance, on row 4. Then kickdrum on 8, snare on 12 etc. All the way, until I have to start over again on another page. I use to add hi-hat/tambourine on rows 0-1-2-3-4... etc or 0-2-4-6-8...etc depending on the feel I want for the track. Now, all this is fine. Over to the 'problem'. I am quite convinced that this is the method for creating 4/4 swing: Still using the same application. Edit the rows so you end up using only 48 rows. Place a basskick on 0, as well as on row 3, but a snare on 6. Then basskick on 12, basskick on 15, snare on 18 etc. Then, for the ultimate rhythm atmosphere, include a closed hi-hat in the following pattern: rows: Well, basically you put a closed hi-hat on 0-3-6-9-12-15-18 etc. But except for the hi-hat on row 0; you also add a hi-hat on the beat just BEFORE 3-6-9-12-15-18 etc, making it: 0-2-3-5-6-8-9-11-12... etc etc. Do you see the coherence? Well I do - for what concerns the application. However, I always fail when trying to apply it when I only sit with my guitar!! What do you think? I'm very close to understanding it. Maybe it's just me putting too little effort in it. It's late in the night, and I've been listening to music almost all day. I got to have break, and a new go tomorrow. In the meantime maybe someone has provided a few assisting words as well. More later.

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10-27-2005, 02:58 PM	#2
halfdeadhippo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,741	It's tricky. I don't know exactly how to count it, but it's a quarter note followed by a quarter note triplet and an eighth note triplet. Then you repeat once more to finish out the bar.

10-27-2005, 05:33 PM	#4
halfdeadhippo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,741	To clarify, when I use the word triplet, I mean an individual note that takes up one third of two beats. A quarter note triplet followed by an eighth note triplet (one third of a beat) produces the "shuffle rhythm" (common in most blues). If you alternate between a straight quarter note and the shuffle rhythm, you get the standard "swing rhythm" (common in a lot of jazz). If you're thinking of the rhythm in SRV's "Pride and Joy", then you're thinking of a shuffle rhythm.

10-27-2005, 09:44 PM	#6
Flamencology man with the sexy voice Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Eastern Canada Posts: 119	Instead of counting: 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 Try counting: 1 And-Uh 2 And-Uh 3 And-Uh 4

10-27-2005, 10:09 PM	#7
Krabsworth Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: no Posts: 10,140	Are you talking for drums or guitar?

10-27-2005, 11:24 PM	#10
Krabsworth Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: no Posts: 10,140	[URL="http://media.putfile.com/swing31"]http://media.putfile.com/swing31[/url] Would you consider that a swing rhythm?

10-27-2005, 11:58 PM	#11
Flopfoot Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 222	Flamencology is right. You need to count 3 triplets for each beat instead of counting 2 quavers to play a swing rhythm. Ie, count out One-and-uh Two-and-uh Three-and-uh Four-and-uh You play on these beats. One_____ Two___Uh Three_____ Four___Uh

10-28-2005, 04:36 AM	#12
Ned Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,572	You know, swing is not just 12/8. We can do much better. Try again.

10-28-2005, 04:37 AM	#13
Popup-Box Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 636	Thanks to everyone for all of the replies. I think Flopfoot had an interesting explanation in his last post. I'm going to try it.

10-28-2005, 08:05 AM	#15
HomeCatMickey8 You might not know, but: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: the 'Ville, IN Posts: 1,279	I had the same problem when we played swing in Jazz Band... I never did figure it out, but now I understand it a little more.

10-28-2005, 07:33 PM	#17
KSas Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 91	it's a quarter note followed by two eigth notes, but the eigth notes are swung, meaning it is the equivalent of a quarter note eighth note triplet.

10-28-2005, 08:10 PM	#19
Caleb3221 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,664	You absolutley must swing on guitar. You should find yourself swinging just as much as the rest of the band if you are playing a swing tune. And swing is difficult to understand without hearing it in person. But basicly, it is based around triplets. If you can, try to find a good teacher for at least one session so you can really HEAR what swing is supposed to be like.

10-29-2005, 08:24 PM	#20
Popup-Box Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 636	It seems like the rhythm I've always thought of as 4/4 swing... may be shuffle rhythm. Or is it the exact same thing? I hear great similarities between, let's say many of Stevie Ray Vaughan's music, and some of Rage Against the Machine. It's just that there is quite a difference in the approach. Maybe they use variations of the same idea, I'm not completely sure... I'll have to explore it further. I just listened through several Rage Against the Machine songs, and I'm not sure if there is anything special after all. That said, a song like Guerilla Radio got a certain rhythm. I think the best example of the rhythm I'm thinking about is to be heard in Steve Vai's The Animal. Especially notice how the hi-hat goes.