tectactoe: FILM: tectac's Hayao Miyazaki, Ranked

tectactoe 05.27.20	I know how many people love Miyazaki. So just let me say - I'm sorry in advance.
Uzumaki 05.27.20	As much as I prefer Princess Mononoke, I enjoy your effusive choice for #1.
Bedex 05.27.20	11 last is a wild take I'l lgive you that
ArsMoriendi 05.27.20	I've only seen 11 and 3, but they're both great
tectactoe 05.27.20	Those are arguably his two most acclaimed / revered films, and my dissent toward the former is an anomaly at best.
Minushuman24 05.27.20	angry
Slugboiiii 05.27.20	Howl is easily one of his worst films. It's gorgeous but the story is a complete mess.
polyrhythm 05.27.20	Absolute clusterfuck of a list wow. At least it will spark some serious debate, for which you deserve kudos
Bedex 05.28.20	what is a door cum portal
tectactoe 05.28.20	cum1 /koÍom,kÉ™m/ preposition combined with; also used as (used to describe things with a dual nature or function). "a study-cum-bedroom"
tectactoe 05.28.20	In other words get your mind out of the gutter, my friend
Sinternet 05.28.20	absolutely retarded rank how many staircases did you get dropped down as a kid
Lucman 05.28.20	Interesting ranking. Howl's has always been among my least favourites of his while Mononoke and Castle In the Sky rank much higher. I think my favourite might be Kiki, but my absolute favourite Ghibli films are non-Miazaki works.
tectactoe 05.28.20	â€˜ absolutely retarded rank how many staircases did you get dropped down as a kidâ€™ Precisely enough to abstain from creating boring, predictable, critically-aligned lists such as your own.
tectactoe 05.28.20	@Luc: What non-Miyazaki Ghibli films would you foremost recommend ?
Slugboiiii 05.28.20	inb4 someone says Grave of the Fireflies. Very overrated
tectactoe 05.28.20	Didn't realize that was a Ghibli film, but yeah that is worse than every single film on this list tbh. I actively despise it, actually.
aydross121 05.28.20	Grave is a beautiful film, what are you people on about.
dedex 05.28.20	Grave is magnificent you stooges!!!!!! I don't really agree with yo ranking but I kinda get your point. The dude has a tendency to write absurd stories without lots of meaning or evident symbolism. Still love Mononoke to death.
Jasdevi087 05.28.20	wack top 2 glad I'm not alone in thinking Princess Mononoke is one toothy blowjob of a story, though i can't say it's his worst as it's far from his only movie that suffers from similar shortcomings and at least it's visually captivating unlike something like Castle in the Sky
Dewinged 05.28.20	Controversial ranking obvs, Princess Mononoke is one of my favourite movies of all time. You are missing a couple of good ones: The Secret World of Arrietti and Tales from Earthsea, not among his best, but pretty decent movies if you are already on a Miyazaki binge.
Madbutcher3 05.28.20	neither arrietti nor earthsea are made by hayao miyazaki, although earthsea is by his son I think Princess Mononoke is essentially like an anime Star Wars and enjoyable in the same manner: somewhat muddled narrative, nice to look at, excellent setting, broad cast. While it leaves several plot elements somewhat underdeveloped I think it manages to be a great film because of it having well enough developed villains and a great management of tension. Worst thing about it is Ashitaka who is very boring anyway 5 is 1
tectactoe 05.28.20	@Dewi - those aren't Miyazaki, but they look interesting regardless. I'll add 'em to the queue.
Zig 05.28.20	NausicaÃ¤ is problably my favorite, the ost is fantastic. Been watching all Miyazaki films on Netflix recently, only missed 2 and 11.
Dewinged 05.28.20	Oh shit yeah my bad, they are his son's but I bet he had some sort of involvement nonetheless.
JohnnyoftheWell 05.28.20	Nausicaa over Mononoke is the correct take, though I feel the fantasy of that one is extensive and forthright for her constantly inner (outer) monologue to be part of the charm. Also disagreed on the guaranteed success story of her quest - the way that one gradually ramps up the stakes is more intense than anything other Miyazaki I've seen Your Kiki take is v similar to mine, however
IronGiant 05.28.20	top 3 for me would prob be spirited away, whisper of the heart, and castle in the sky although kiki and princess kaguya are right behind. the ghibli movies are some of my absolute favorite though, so i'm understandably a bit biased
tectactoe 05.28.20	'Also disagreed on the guaranteed success story of her quest - the way that one gradually ramps up the stakes is more intense than anything other Miyazaki I've seen' I dunno. I don't disagree that the stakes themselves are high, but rarely does Miyazaki give the impression that NausicaÃ¤ is even remotely capable of failure. That's kind of his mantra though e.g. when the boy ends up in peril at the end of KIKI'S DELIVERY SERVICE, you pretty much know exactly how it's going to play out, but the cutesy demeanor of the film quells the nagging, winsome predictability a bit. NAUSICAÃ„, on the other hand, is painted as a much more "serious" film (with much higher stakes, as you put it), so the "Miyazaki's guarantee" seems to do more harm imo.
tectactoe 05.28.20	WHISPER OF THE HEART is another non-Miyazaki, but another one that people seem to revere. I'm just not noticing how many non-Miyazaki Ghibli films I haven't seen (i.e., most of them).
Slugboiiii 05.28.20	You ever seen any Makoto Shinkai films?
tectactoe 05.28.20	Only 5 CM PER SECOND and YOUR NAME, neither of which I was a huge fan of, to be honest.
Sinternet 05.28.20	whisper of the heart is 2nd best ghibli
bgillesp 05.29.20	I enjoyed reading your takes. I disagree with most but thatâ€™s what opinions are for. I feel like The Wind Rises is his most underrated film for the way it handles passion for the sake of passion vs consideration of consequences. Castle in the Sky and Spirited Away are my favs.
JohnnyoftheWell 05.29.20	"I dunno. I don't disagree that the stakes themselves are high, but rarely does Miyazaki give the impression that NausicaÃ¤ is even remotely capable of failure" hmm I kinda get this, but I think he also has her work her butt off from start to finish; defs one of the more frantic of his protags, so I feel her success doesn't feel too casual incidentally, I was marking a worksheet today where a Japanese kid mentioned they'd watched "Naushika" the other day, and it broke my heart to have to spell out how brutally unintuitive that name is in English
dedex 05.29.20	The way Japanese pronounce "Naushika" is so cool imo "Laputa" is the best Ghibli-related word tho
tectactoe 05.29.20	@bgillesp: Thank you! 'hmm I kinda get this, but I think he also has her work her butt off from start to finish; defs one of the more frantic of his protags, so I feel her success doesn't feel too casual' Fair enough! I suppose at this point it's just a matter of personal taste, because my favorite Miyazaki protag is Porco, who is the antithesis of winsome and valiant, almost acting out of some weird combination of dutiful necessity and guilt. (Though it can obviously be argued that deep down he's a softie, but the hardened exterior and suave nonchalance is what I love.)
Winesburgohio 05.29.20	ALRIGHT LISTEN UP PAL,
MercySeat 05.29.20	I canâ€™t wait to get HBO MAX and figure out what all this is about!
Gallantin 05.30.20	I don't want to be all like "you just don't get it", but your constant reiteration that you don't understand the context or meaning for things happening in these films just screams "i don't get it". Of course you don't have to like the movies but you're seriously failing to meet these films on their own terms, and their terms are absolutely not what you seem to be wanting from film.
tectactoe 05.30.20	I never said I don't understand the context in a way that makes me "not get" the films. In the most general sense, I always understand the overarching thematicism that the film is going for, simply because, If anything, Miyazaki is often too blunt with his big-picture symbolism. I'm referring more to the smaller-scale, byzantine plot elements that work as machinations of the narrative itself. The cogs that are in service of the broader thematic strokes are, in 95% of the cases, entirely random and attributed to artistry or conceptual creativity. But no, they're just random imo, regardless of when they might we working to "represent" in the long run, the moment-to-moment logic is, more often than not, totally arbitrary.
Gallantin 05.30.20	No, that's what I mean, that's what you don't get. Your distaste for the randomness, the small moments that seemingly mean nothing.
tectactoe 05.30.20	I mean, if you're implying that the randomness in general, in and of itself, is some sort of meaningful statement on the spontaneity of childhood/life or something along those lines, I get it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. If you're implying that each and every arbitrary occurrence is in fact _not_ arbitrary and stands for something with intentional specificity...Well I'm simply not buying that. I'm sure due to simple cultural differences there might be things here or there that go over a Westerner's head, but his films are almost portended as excessively accessible, the farthest thing from cryptic or deeply symbolic. In either case, intents aside, I'd bet that the largest portion of his disciples champion him on a purely aesthetic / superficial elation. Which is totally fine, but also incredibly subjective.
Gallantin 05.30.20	You're really, really trying way too hard to analyse this thing. This is why you don't get it.
Gallantin 05.30.20	You should also stop trying to wrestle with the idea that a director or artist has such insane thematic specificity in all aspects of their work. Some might. But to believe the artist is some grand arbiter who ascribes perfect meaning to every aspect of writing is silly. A lot of writing and meaning and themes are happy accidents. Art is a collaboration between artist and audience. You bring just as much if not more to the table than any artistic intention. Also is it not pretty well known that Miyazaki never really bothered with scripts and just made shit up during storyboarding his movies? There's a reason they make no sense and are filled with random nonsense. Because the dude just makes random shit up on the fly.
Gallantin 05.30.20	Point being that you looking way too hard into why so many of his films are covered front to back in seemingly random events and moments is exactly why you do not get it. Not everything needs to have meaning to be...pure, or fun, or entertaining, or touching, or beautiful. That's what makes his films feel special. Not that they are so insanely perfectly scripted and developed and thought out, but because they're so messy, they're the opposite of what so many writers and directors and artists try to typically achieve. They supercede the need for the exact types of critical analysis you're trying to pin them down with. Be less critical with your eye and maybe just try to feel out what these films are worth. Edit: all of film analysis and critique is subjective, btw, hope your last comment doesn't mean to try and suggest there are more "objective" ways of understanding art (big lol). Also hope you're not trying to imply that liking something for the way it feels or conveys certain emotions or aesthetics is in some way "superficial", bc it's literally the opposite
Gallantin 05.30.20	And anyway yeah, you don't have to like it. I just think your approach is ridic.
Lucman 05.30.20	@tectactoe: My favourite non-Miyazaki film, and favourite Ghibli film overall, is Whisper of the Heart. When Marnie Was There is also one I love over every Miyazaki film.
bgillesp 05.30.20	Not to step in between yâ€™all but I agree with both tectac and gallantin. I enjoy Miyazaki mostly for the aesthetic and that is super subjective. The little random bits that donâ€™t make sense to the story i think are just that. If gallantin is suggesting this aspect is what has some appeal, I agree. If you @tectactoe donâ€™t agree, I get that too. For me, My Neighbor Totoro Was the most reliant on pure â€œaestheticâ€, so it started out as my least favorite, but as I watched more of his works, it grew on me more and more. Idk, Iâ€™m newer to his works and watched all of them in order of release (minus Lupin) over a couple weeks this winter so Iâ€™m just interested in talking about them.
bgillesp 05.30.20	For example, when I watched them in order of release, Ponyo was of course One of the last I saw. When I finished it, I loved it and ranked it in the middle, but then I thought back to what Iâ€™d most like to rewatch and it fell to the bottom because my appreciation of the earlier ones had risen with watching his later films and developing a taste for his specific â€œaestheticâ€ or whatever.
Slugboiiii 05.31.20	I just don't understand how anyone can dislike Mononoke. It's fucking immense
tectactoe 05.31.20	"Not getting it" is not the same as "not liking it," of which I'm firmly in the latter camp. It's weird you say to "stop analyzing the films" but being receptive of the random aspects as a positive quirk is...analyzing the film. Albeit in a loftier way, I guess, but both leniency and criticism are forms of analysis, as is the consumption and valuation of literally any form of art, be it good or bad. You are more forgiving of random, half-cooked bouts of explosive imagination than I am. Nothing wrong with either of those stances, but saying that "I don't get it," simply because I don't like it, or prefer something more thematically coherent, is nonsense. With any sort of critical analysis, personal biases are bound to seep in because all art is subjective. That doesn't make one approach more in/correct than any other. I even stated in the list description (and in several of the film blurbs) that I understand precisely why so many people love this, and it's simply just 'not my thing' for x, y, z-reason. If you disagree - which I'm sure many people do, as I also previously noted would be the case - that's perfectly acceptable and expected. But implying that I didn't get something, when in fact there's literally nothing "to get", is...weird? Especially when I acknowledge that the absence of non-superlative context is what I don't like.
tectactoe 05.31.20	@Luc: Looks like I need to get around to that one soon. @bgillesp: Agree with your stance, and that's pretty much the way most people have come to revere his films, which is obviously a mighty fine method. That's why I was initially hesitant to even make this list, as my personal taste is almost directly antithetical to Miyazaki's strongest sentiments. But I decided to do it anyway because [1] who cares, and [2] I need to spread knowledge of how supremely underrated PORCO ROSSO is, even among diehard Miyazaki fans.
ThorntonReed 06.08.20	incorrect
tectactoe 06.09.20	thanks for reading
ThorntonReed 06.10.20	you're welcome
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.10.20	as much as i love howls moving castle, that movie is just as guilty of your criticisms of mononoke which makes mononoke's placement as last all the more bewildering
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.10.20	i've also never made it all the way through porco rosso or lupin and they are easily the two least intriguing movies in his filmography for me
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.10.20	actually i take it back, the wind rises is his most vapid looking film
JS19 06.10.20	i refuse to read any of these after you put PM last I am triggered too hard
tectactoe 06.10.20	Pots, as I mention in the first sentence for HOWL'S - there's nothing in MONONOKE that excites me from a visual/superficial standpoint as much the castle itself, nor is there anything as conceptually interesting (to me, obviously) as the transportive door it has. My criticisms with Miyazaki's films are (mostly) overarching - all his films contain the same (or similar) issues I have, to varying degrees. From there it becomes a matter of how favorable my knee-jerk reaction is to the material and/or how rapt I am from the surface-level pleasures. Only when he attempts to tether his concepts to more real-world implications do things get especially hairy, _except_ for PORCO ROSSO, which is a balancing act he hasn't been able to successfully pull of a second time, to my mind. JS - I'm sorry.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.10.20	Nothing excites you from a visual standpoint in mononoke? BBRUUUUUH You clearly need that rewatch so I dont have to start listing off all the absolute visual feasts in that movie.
Slugboiiii 06.10.20	The forest spirit transformation is god tier. Mononoke is the best animated film of all time, never mind the best Miyazaki.
tectactoe 06.10.20	It's been a long time since I saw that one - watched it in a mini-binge many years ago along with HOWL'S, KIKI'S, SPIRITED AWAY, and TOTORO, and I vividly remember thinking MONONOKE was far and away the least interesting to me, both thematically (/narratively) and visually. So much so that I've seen each of those movies (at least) once more since that time, except for MONONOKE. So yeah, it's probably been close to... maybe ten years? Definitely due for a revisit, which I tried to note in the capsule above, but my memories of it are not fond. It would behoove you to choke through PORCO one of these days, though. It's really quite great ;o)
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.10.20	i mean if your only viewing of it was during a 5 flick binge i really wouldn't put too much weight into that conclusion. that sounds exhausting. people don't have the attention span to properly digest 5 movies at once. maybe some of your feelings towards it have more to do with circumstance than you think.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.10.20	yeah i'll make it through porco some day
tectactoe 06.10.20	to clarify, i did not watch all five in one day, i just watched them all back to back to back. probably those five over the course of a week with no other movies in between. i rarely can make it through a two-movie day, honestly.
Lord(e)Po)))ts 06.11.20	Same. Even still I also have a hard time digesting content from the same person - director, band, or artist, whatever - over a short period of time, even if it was one a day for a week.
aydross121 06.11.20	Porco is literally god
Slugboiiii 06.11.20	Kiki is 100% his most slept on film though. It's an absolute joy
Egarran 06.14.20	Just saw Nausicaa again. Great movie. What it lacks in subtlety it compensates for in violence.
tectactoe 06.14.20	not a bad trade-off, i guess
samwise2000 07.13.20	Normally really dig your rankings, but not this time around haha. Still, mad respect for Porco Rosso at #1, its criminally overlooked, along with Kiki. Just watched Princess Mononoke a couple days ago actually for the first time in a while, I have to say it is perhaps Miyazaki's most thematically consistent film, and although the conclusion leaves much to be desired (at least for me), I really appreciate how ambitious the film is, while still maintaining a clear plotline with (arguably) some of Miyazaki's best visuals ever. Castle in the Sky is his crowning achievment in my eyes
robertsona 07.13.20	I saw The Wind Rises a month or two ago at my little brother's insistence and wow. what a movie. everything this guy gets his hands on is gold
Ryus 07.13.20	kinda agree with your spirited away take but 11 is 1 and 7 is 2
tectactoe 07.14.20	Iâ€™m sure MONONOKE would jump up if I were to revisit it, though I canâ€™t fathom itâ€™d be close to dethroning PORCO, which is still the only Miyazaki film I can say I truly love with all my heart.
LeddSledd 08.27.20	An unconventional ranking, to say the least. You present your arguments very well even if I disagree with the majority of them. I've only seen 10, 8, 6, 3, and 2. Totoro is a staple of my childhood but my favorite still remains Castle in the Sky. I've had others also remark that the pacing of the latter can be pretty sluggish and I can see where they're coming from, but I'll be damned if I don't defend that movie as long as I live. Maybe I just get caught up in the stunning, Ghibli-fashion visuals but the world building, lore, and characters are just so incredibly charming and alluring to me. Even upon rewatches it continually holds up. Really need to watch the rest of these somewhere where they aint so damn expensive to stream.
Egarran 08.27.20	Spirited Away most worthy Oscar winner ever
tectactoe 08.27.20	'Really need to watch the rest of these somewhere where they aint so damn expensive to stream.' Might be time to sail the black seas, matey. I require that you at least see PORCO, stat. It is Miyazaki's finest hour. (Also Keaton's.)
Egarran 08.27.20	Anyone seen Pom Poko from Ghibli? The less you know before watching the better.
tectactoe 09.03.20	A fellow MONONOKE fan, I presume? :^)
Gyromania 02.23.21	ponyo at 10 is a massive fail tbh
JohnnyoftheWell 02.23.21	cursed bump "If I lost a dollar for every time I caught myself wondering what the hell all this stuff is supposed to represent" mainly for this
tectactoe 02.23.21	I know, I know, the wHiMsY iS iNtEnTioNaL but that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s necessarily good or even enjoyable. Dude is an animation genius but kind of a narrative pleb tbh. However PORCO ROSSO is a masterwork.
Gyromania 02.23.21	Porco rosso is decent but no way is it in league with spirited away or kiki's delivery service
JohnnyoftheWell 02.23.21	i mean the whimsy is nice, but bowing out of the seismic fuckton of symbolism running through that film and blaming it on ropey narrative is a...take!
Pheromone 02.23.21	totoro is the best and that is objective and i am right
JohnnyoftheWell 02.23.21	i did a survey across 4 classes on that topic and they agreed with you tbh cannot dispute
nol 02.23.21	I kinda feel you on Mononoke. But, god, the animation is so good. Watching that in English was painful tho.
Pheromone 02.23.21	yeah mononononononoke is my second least favourite behind moving castle. i prefer, i do, prefer, other ghibli films (wolf children / grave of the fireflies)
tectactoe 02.23.21	Hot (?) take: GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES is one of the most chicken-shit films of all time. Re SPIRITED AWAY: Being symbolic is one thing; being perpetually arcane is another. With any symbolism, here's always the risk of the viewer not registering said parallels and therefore misinterpreting meaningful symbolism as incessantly r/iamveryrandom, but given SPIRITED AWAY's gargantuan following and ubiquitous acclaim, I'm less inclined to believe people are picking up on every piece of symbolism that Miyazaki intended and instead just marveling at the animation and inclined to follow the herd mentality of rubber-stamping certified "classics." Meaning, 98% of the people praising SPIRITED AWAY don't "understand" it, either. Even Miyazaki himself said the film (as well as several others he's done) are less symbolic on the microcosmic level than most people think. Sure they span specific themes and agendas, but a lot of the details are merely fragments of his imagination and not necessarily all permutations of some cultural or historical analogy. And even if each little thing did have some meaning that needed to be transcribed or deciphered - what good is that? At some point the nonstop referencing stops being fun and starts feeling like homework. (See also, e.g., Godard's CONTEMPT....or pretty much anything he did after, say, 1968.)
Pheromone 02.23.21	explain yourself
tectactoe 02.23.21	I tried: https://letterboxd.com/tectactoe/film/grave-of-the-fireflies/
Pheromone 02.23.21	i disagree but i do get it to be fair what's your take on come and see?
Egarran 02.23.21	I know better than to watch Grave of the Fireflies. Think the first thing I read about it was something like 'this movie destroyed my soul and I will never be happy again'.
tectactoe 02.23.21	'what's your take on come and see?' Been a long time, but I prefer it to GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES. Thematicism aside, it is much more interesting formally. But COME AND SEE is literally hell for an hour and a half (the first hour of the movie is brutal, too, to some extent, but contains much more modulation of tone), which at least achieves the intended effect of "holy fuck war is goddamned awful, isn't it?" Whereas GRAVE attempted the same and didn't evoke a disgust of war so much as it made me hate the protagonist for how stupid and selfish he was, not to mention lament the writers for giving him the "easy way out" which effectively drains the film's main moral dilemma of all its power. I still don't think COME AND SEE is the masterpiece that many people do, though, for a somewhat similar reason. At some point I have to question the point of having horrific real-life events function as a form of art, no matter how faithful or powerful they might be. Truthfully, though, it's been nearly a decade since I last (and first) saw COME AND SEE, so I'd need a more recent revisit to really solidify my thoughts on it now. My tastes have shifted quite a bit in the last ten years, so who knows.
JohnnyoftheWell 02.24.21	"Being symbolic is one thing; being perpetually arcane is another" calling the myriad references to Japanese folklore, bathhouse culture (w/ prostitution subtext) and capitalist/westernisation/environmentalism overtones in Spirited Away arcane or dismissing them as aesthetic products of Miyazaki's imagination is like (hmm) reducing the divine comedy to an adventure romp because lol hell and demons. your point that most or all of the aspects may be highly opaque to a western audience is v valid, and I was definitely in that boat when I first saw it (and, in turn, enjoyed it for primarily aesthetic/atmospheric reasons), but I don't think that criticism of, ultimately, a minority of its viewership grounds your take or makes your engagement here with its symbolism or themes any more convincing. I think Spirited Away has a lot more depth and nuance than, say, Princess Mononoke (which I've admittedly seen and thought about less), and I'd be much inclined to accept your crit if you engaged with these elemts rather than focusing on what you would rather see developed or ad homineming the way certain people might prioritise the animation value /rant
tectactoe 02.24.21	My underlying sentiment is that films that rely too heavily on specific cultural, political, spiritual, et al references that only a subset of people in the world would readily be able to digest and understand at first-go must also be superficially arresting/riveting/captivating enough to warrant further dissection of said analogous elements, otherwise decrypting the various allusions becomes merely a chore instead of something rewarding or augmentative. Most Western viewers, of which I am one, would agree that SPIRITED AWAY is one such film. I am arguing that it is not. At least not to the degree that everyone else thinks. I have no problem with parable, even parable that is esoteric. But the film has to offer something else for the (often larger) sect of people who might not readily grasp those elements, something that enchants them ostensibly and therefore compels them to dig deeper. To cherry-pick regionally similar examples, there are many films that accomplish exactly this in drastically different ways: TAMPOPO, FLOATING CLOUDS, TOKYO STORY, TERRORIZERS, just about any Kurosawa film but esp. RASHOMON, HARAKIRI, GOOD MORNING, hell even the original GODZILLA is basically one big metaphor for nuclear war. But those films, to my mind, offer something more to the viewer purely from surface-level entrapment that SPIRITED AWAY does not.
Egarran 02.24.21	Pom Poko is better than all those movies, not least metaphorically.
rabidfish 02.24.21	lol