Horrifying. My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

fucking terrible... I was planning to go to London for a couple of days in the summer, but I guess that's going to be an ordeal.

Watching the news now, I live half an hour away from Manchester and the police have just done a controlled demolition of a bomb found near the arena.

No confirmed news on what happened in the arena, but it looks ominous.

Prayers go out to all the families, we have amazing emergency services over here, much love for those wonderful people.

Im at that train station 2/3 times a week. Absolutely gutted. Attacking teenage girls FFS

shocking, i have family in that area and they said they could hear it go off, my thoughts are with the victims

Holy shit, this is absolutely awful

Greater Manchester police have just tweeted that the controlled explosion was precautionary and the item did not turn out to be susupicious.

Damn man, that's awful. Praying for the victims and their families.

harrowing news

thoughts//prayers for the victims and their families

Fuckin A what is this world coming to?

Awful to hear. Thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Horrendous act of violence, strongly disliking this recent repetition of bombing concerts.

"Horrendous act of violence, strongly disliking this recent repetition of bombing anything."

FTFY

Absolutely horrible news, I can only hope that the people around the area get to safety and the people affected by the attack get the help and care they need. Thoughts go out to all the victims' families.

police did a controlled explosion but it's not known what they actually detonated yet.

I posted before man further up, it was just a set of abandoned clothes.

Another day, another terrorist attack

R.I.P all the victims. Thoughts with their families and friends. Absolutely heartless.

Heard is was a nail bomb. Extra points for being an even bigger dickhead to the dumbfuck that did it.

Hope all the brit bros from sput are ok, this is terrible condolences to all the victims

Devastated, not in the UK these days but thoughts are with everyone in Manchester and especially the families of those affected

"nail bomb"? Jesus fuck that's disgusting

This is awful.

Fucking cowards attacking tweens. Jesus Christ this is disgusting.

Fucking repugnant bunch of cunts. Waking up to this shit and dealing with yet more brainwashed who refuse to even think that it's terrorism.

Thoughts are with you Manchester. Your people are the worlds finest.

https://twitter.com/ArianaGrande/status/866849021519966208

sad ass shit

Jesus fucking christ this makes me so angry.
A fucking nail bomb. What the fuck.

dang

a nail bomb meant to target mainly children...
just fucking heartbreaking

I hope whoever did this rots in hell. What a cunt

RIP

Daesh will regret targeting children is my gut reaction to this, specifically bombing that group is the universal language of being totally indefensible cvnts. They're speeding up their own destruction imo

I'm a peaceful sort but I don't know how the police can take in people planning this sort of stuff and not kill the fuckers. So many foiled plots recently, so many sick fucks in the system.

RIP

this is fucking heinous

but i must say immediately labeling incidents as acts of terrorism is fairly reckless

so terrible

i know ariana is a celeb and has plenty of money and blah blah blah but fuck, i feel so bad for her too

^yeah everything I've read says she's taking this extremely hard, completely distraught, blaming herself and all that

The remainder of her European tour has been postponed, might be canceled outright because she's in such a bad state

EE - how could this not be 'terrorism'? The curious incident of the accidental nail bomb in the night.

It might not be Daesh...maybe a 1 in a thousand chance it isn't affiliated with them. I'll live with that risk and back track as and when.

The thing is, she'll also feel guilty they targeted her show, because they see her as a symbol of the depravity of Western culture and the impure woman and all that horseshit. With her image change, being a dangerous woman and singing lewder songs... I don't know, I just hope she doesn't take it too much to heart, the poor lass.
But besides that, there needs to be a fucking Manhattan Project to weed out the radical, ultra-conservative sects of this cult of death, from the grassroots, from wherever is possible. There needs to be zero tolerance for this macabre religiosity, not just for these terrorist attacks and the targeting of kids, but for all the harm they pose to open and free societies with their doctrine of bullshit. These theocrats are the death of all moral progress in the world and I don't want to see another fucking masochistic ideologue claim that somehow we are deserving of this.

'Targeted her show' - I'm not sure to how big an extent, pretty sure they're open to any perceived soft target.

I'm not sure how much of an extent either, I didn't watch their press releases. But it is a common theme with this globalized caliphate, that they express again and again, about how promiscuous popstars represent the death of the pure woman. That's why they do honour killings, where a father will kill her daughter for just being a victim of rape. There is no end to the horrors they impose on them under Sharia Law.

I mean I'm scared of girls a bit but man these extremist sorts are absolutely terrified of them. Best chop off their heads. Pathetic.

A hundred virgins on the other side? They'll still be too scared to actually talk to one of them.

I'd rather have a promiscuous slag any day of the week. Damn my debauched westernised way of thinking.

I don't think they have a phrase for 'horses for courses', or if they do they just apply it to horses, not women.

Oh Daesh, you hate women, music and art. How can you derp so hard? Oblivion beckons, don't let the daisy cutter singe your arses on the way out. Bye now.

I really wish both of you were banned forever

Why? Freud said all human behaviour comes down to sex and if you think these lads have a magic pass to exclude them then you're sorely mistaken.

it's definitely isis and i hope all those pigs that were responsible , they are pigs that's why they don't eat them, die painful slow death(s)

'it's definitely isis and i hope all those pigs that were responsible , they are pigs that's why they don't eat them, die painful slow death(s)'

Yup, we're at that point, you can't react in any other way than wish death upon anyone who affiliates themselves with ISIS/Daesh. To not agree is entirely offensive at this stage. Sad it has come to this, no one wants to hate a people, but this group gotta go.

yo zak I understand what you're saying and agree to some level but i don't see you proposing a solution either. Terrorism is so ubiquitous and ineradicable (And effective) that carpet bombing supposed terrorist HQ's wont do shit to prevent things like this from occurring.

"Terrorism is so ubiquitous and ineradicable (And effective) that carpet bombing supposed terrorist HQ's wont do shit to prevent things like this from occurring."

^ this. Hasn't worked for the last almost 20 years. There's more terrorism now than ever before. The whole War on Terror thing is a neverending story.

People first of all need to get to the crux of the problem.
Get rid of ISIS, cut down on acts of terrorism.
Get rid of mass uncontrolled, rapid immigration, filter out lack of assimilation, cultural isolation, religious indoctrination, minority victimisation.
Forced marriage, genital mutilation, ghettoisation, the rise of the right, social sublimation. It'll all start to improve.
Start denouncing this shit, wake up.

have u guys tried not starting shit with other countries

this thread is getting disrespectful

whilst I agree to a certain extent with most of you, can we please take this time to mourn the dead at this tragedy, and not turn it into another case of political point-scoring

Is that the method of shutting down debate now. A matter of respect? How about the initial distaste shown by the fucker who blew himself up at a concert. Let it be known that I or god forbid any of my family are victim to this shit I want people to shout from the hills.

Not coming to conclusions after the x-th islamist strike on European soil, is a slap in the face of the families of those victims. You can mourn all you want, it is meaningless if you're not willing to do the utmost to prevent this from ever happening again.

Starting shit with a country means you get 5 free nail bombs smae

Too many dreadful people out there. Horrible incident...

@Fourthrecih and all other 'western imperialism guilt' adherants: let's assume (only assume) that your theory is correct: what does it tell you about integration of muslim individuals if they're prepared to attack their own country for vengeance after an assault on their 'native country'?
Why should a nation accept those who are not willing to become tissue of society? Let alone, invite members of those other countries in?

But in the end: during history, all where Islam members have been invited in, ended in havoc.

toondude, u misspelled ariana in the second line.

rest in peace to those who perished in this senseless attack

'have u guys tried not starting shit with other countries'

Not doing anything would be more abhorrent in a lot of cases. A lot of people said Saddam should have stayed...but what an evil fuck he ended up being to many of his own people. Turned out to be a mad dog in the end. A lot of people saying the same with Assad. The middle east needs 'strong leaders' they say, guys who know what they want, who take no nonsense, rule with an iron fist. That would be easier for the west, a lot easier. Hard to stand back and watch genocide though ain't it, leaves a nasty taste.

No joke here but if you're bombing a concert attended mainly by children I hope you die a slow painful fucking death you piece of shit.

I agree with what Sinternet and others are saying. Lets just put this constant and inescapable political shitstorm aside for just one second and take some time to mourn.

"Not coming to conclusions after the x-th islamist strike on European soil, is a slap in the face of the families of those victims."

I think this couldn't be more wrong, particularly right now. I really doubt the families of those who have lost loved ones at this moment are wondering whether collectivism concerning Islam is valid or not, i'm sure they're just mourning loss, as we should too. Give it a few weeks; I can guarantee that people will still be arguing about the nature of Islam then and this event won't of happened any less and won't be any less valid in the Islam conversation.

'i'm sure they're just mourning loss, as we should too'

Incorrect, pretty sure they'll be really f'cking angry too. It is murder. Someone murders your child - "oh I'm just mourning loss, I don't care about the culprit" said no one in that situation ever, get real.

yeah they're probably angry, but in the end it won't help one bit

No positive action has ever come from collective anger? Really? Ok.....

Talking about the socio-political underpinnings in this current climate of debate is actually really fucking relevant thank you very much, its the reason these kids fucking died in the first place. There's nothing detracting about it from the heartbreak and mourning, it is an outlet in which to express the distaste we all feel into something practical and meaningful. We don't need any more fucking hashtags. What the fuck is wrong with you people? They died precisely because of this fucking cowardly tip-toeing and non-intervention. Ugh sorry for being this angry, my girl just cheated on me, but everything about these tragedies makes my blood boil

I agree but that's Quite a pipe dream Zak . I guess that's no excuse for not trying to achieve them tho . Things would almost certainly get worse before they eventually get better too

"Talking about the socio-political underpinnings in this current climate of debate is actually really fucking relevant thank you very much, its the reason these kids fucking died in the first place. "
1,2,3: yes! Some sense, thank you!!

bakkermaarten007 you're literally in every of those threads, we don't see you much otherwise, and everytime you're here to say the same thing all over again.

And sadly those aren't words of wisdom and respect, rather the countrary.

Trust me if you're one of those people saying "Oh I was gonna go to England but that's gonna be an ordeal now" you're mistaken. It's a very British thing to stare in the face of terror and refuse to let them change how we act. We'll carry on as normal. Security might be a bit more obvious but we won't change much.

Fourthrecih and all other 'western imperialism guilt' adherants:


Yo is english your first language or are you trolling

Ive never had a problem with you bro but clearly english isnt your first language and you shouldnt come out guns blazing when you cannot understand simple points being conveyed.

Me and bak have been ridiculed, hated and disregarded when it comes to this topic and yet the atrocities continue, the social problems remain, the inefficiency to effect change goes on.
I see a few more people are starting to question though so at least it's a start.

Hasn't even been confirmed to be an Islamic attack yet. Perhaps that's likely, but you should at least wait before jumping to conclusions and then using said conclusions to make an argument.

Being rash and confrontational is just as bad as being ignorant and docile, Bakker.

"Lets just put this constant and inescapable political shitstorm aside for just one second and take some time to mourn."

Lol good luck with that.

Why tho youve obviously completely misinterpreted what i said.

"but i must say immediately labeling incidents as acts of terrorism is fairly reckless"

I mean an incident like this is literally terroriism by definition. They're not blaming it on any particular group yet (as far as I know) but detonating a bomb in a public place for a non milatarisric reason...in what world is that not terrotism?

Terrorism doesn't have to be motivated by any particular thing other than creating terror so it's not like calling it terrorism implies that it's radical Islamic terrorism or anything like that.

Britain is without a doubt shaken today, but we will never give into terrorism and its abhorrent ways.

We're stronger together!

"I come here during these moments because a few have some wisdom- even though you fail to see that. "

Given the kind of wisdom you're looking for, you may aswell hang in there : https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/

You'll be with people as wise as you are.

Lol someone had to bring up trump they just fucking had to. Bakk isnt even american man gtfo

God yeah she has a young age group so there was probably a lot of teens. Somehow, someway, this needs to end.

Everyone is entitled to their own views just be sure to keep things civil in here. Minus a few comments here and there I think you guys have done a good job of that.

For what it's worth, I am with those of you who say more needs to be done than "mourn, hashtag, and move on." At the same time, the motives behind these types of attacks are not something that can be eradicated with bombs.

My personal interjection here is that I can't imagine what the families of the victims are going through right now, so my prayers are with them. The politics behind the attack do need to be discussed and dealt with in a constructive way, but the time for that will be once the bodies of these fallen teens have been tended to.

'At the same time, the motives behind these types of attacks are not something that can be eradicated with bombs.'

Not entirely of course, but when a group like this start land grabbing, sticking flags in the dirt, staging public executions in said territories, then sure I'd say that supposed caliphate is a legitimate target for bombing - I for one am pretty happy when you read missiles are causing fear and deaths among their number, disrupting executions, etc.

These aren't people you can sit around a table and talk to, less so even than Al Qaeda. You can change foreign policy and education as much as you want, it may take away their stock of radicalised/lone wolf type operators in the West, but some of these children born under this type of ideology from the off are destined (doomed?) to become terrorists.

It isn't really a reactionary thing at this point, it's two long held opposed ideologies at this stage. I don't want to use the 'N' word but...it could have been near impossible to sway the nazis on their course of action whatever type of reasoning/deal you set out, ISIS it would be impossible.

Pray they never get a nuke/wide ranging biological weapon - they'd use it in a heartbeat.

ISIS has no "cut and clear" solution because a bombing would simply strengthen anti-western ideologies creating more terrorism. At the same time we cannot be "diplomatic". We do need to instill fear into ISIS or anyone who desires to join thrm, but a bombing will not work.

If there was an easy solution it'd already have been implemented, the stakes are that high. There is no easy fix but I find it hard to believe a significant military response isn't going to be part of any adopted 'best we've got' attempted solution.

no solution is going to make the hate go away, or even bring it down... It's too late for that, this generation and probably the next one is already doomed for war. I do know this: Islam IS a religion of war and violence. This are cookoos getting way too much money and should be left to rot. Cut the money outcome and they are no better than a common sect.

Whoever funds this nutjobs is the #1 target.

Islam needs a reformation, period. The West cannot win this fight, moderate muslims must stand up and take this fight, that's the only chance we have.

Their prophet and main messiah figure is literally a warlord. Good luck with that.

Religion (in all its forms, mind y'all) is fucking CANCER and should be abolished for good. God is a personal experience (if you believe in it). the fact that we still believe dumbfucks in robes and their magic words and millions spent on covering a huge fucking building with gold is somehow getting us closer to salvation is RETARDED.

So you mean organized religion, not religion.

religion as institutionalized dogma, or a set of written rules and rituals made-up by some oldfags from +2000 years ago telling you what you have to do or not do to get into some kind of 'good peeps club' afterlife.

rabid - one thing I'd say is that western culture skirts close to 'institutionalized dogma' at times I'm sure, probably clear as day from those outside of the culture. There are rules, shared beliefs, strange customs - and not all of it is flattering. Hollywood and rock n' roll and democracy and capitalism and love...probably very strange from outside, looking in.

Moderate religions, carrying out their rituals in private, with a philosophy of care and respect that operates in tandem with their religious beliefs, would be fine.

Well, next album will be "Quiet woman" and she'll be wearing a veil on the cover instead of rabbit ears. If there is a next album.

With all the joke titles in the news feed I thought "Ariana Grande Concert Explosion" was some sort of pun.

How is she going to make another concert after this ?

yea, I guess it's all nonsensical, really.

Don't misunderstand me, I obviously don't find this funny.

ISIS claimed responsibility according to a CNN report

Of course they did, they don't succeed unless they instigate the west into direct intervention.

It's funny when people have a strong opinion about something when they only have a surface knowledge of the certain area.

Also they probably did it. (It also does fit their narrative, agreed but let's not pretend like they are not the prime suspect.
If a dude with a basement full of grenades who has previously killed people with them gives himself up to the police they are not very likely to send him home, because he's just clamoring for all that attention)

fuyyglkhjlhlihjkklhkjh

Lol

so your solution is to glass the continent as much as possible until you're sure that the bad is gone?

It worked here. But then again, different contexts, different times. So I'll give you that.

At some point we're going to have to start thinking about deporting every one who doesn't align with and doesn't want to embrace western society. Farfetched now, thanks to the thought and language police, but minds are maturing. It's the only chance we have. Thinkinbg that moderate muslims will stand up is utterly foolish, just as foolish like dreaming of a 'European Islam'. It didn't happen for centuries and there are absolutely no indications that it will happen now. In fact, those muslims who do want to reform their religion are even ignored and silenced by western media! Think of Ayaan Hirsi Ali for example...

causing the biggest mass genocide since WW2 worked? for who???

Deporting people will only heal the short term symptoms but do absolutely nothing but flare up the root cause of Muslim extremism.

Segregating the west from the middle east will only further divide our cultures and lead to more conflict.

for who?

For my family, for me.

Someday we are going to have to seriously think about to round up and forcefully deport everyone who we don't like therby curbstomping the freedoms, rights and the way of life we are seeking to protect. Someday we will seriously have to think about admitting defeat and becoming the totalitarian nightmare of bakkermartens dreams.

Or cooler heads will prevail and we're not going to flush everything down the toilet because some people are to fucking stupid to get that: "Islam is a bad ideology" does not equal "Get rid of all the muslisms, IT'S THE ONLY WAY".

Well said ed

There needs to be a middle ground in the whole islam debate, one that actually understands that there are fundamental issues that need dealing with but does not respond to hatred and violent threats. However despite the tragedies like this most studies i've seen (in britain anyway) show that younger muslims and 2nd/3rd generation immigrants are more amd more embracing the democratic liberal western values, which i guess isnt good for the short-term but might be something to consider in the long-term.

Fuck off people who use strawmans! To those who really listen however: criminalizing certain aspects of Islam is enough to force a 'reformation' (if you will). We won't have enough space in prison for all those who cross those legal lines, however, so we're going to have to make some sort of deal to send those with double nationalities back and those with singular nationalities we're going to have to make room for in prison or internment.

BY NO MEANS is criminalizing these aspects that collide with western society a slippery slope to a totalitarian state, as we'd be doing nothing else than render void Islam's statute as a religion that therefore can cross certain lines- or at the least operate in a grey zone.
Think of: anti-democratic aspects like sharia law, anti-equality aspects like the veil or refusal to shake hands, anti-western aspects like marching for Erdogan in Brussels or Amsterdam,...

"Or cooler heads will prevail and we're not going to flush everything down the toilet because some people are to fucking stupid to get that: "Islam is a bad ideology" does not equal "Get rid of all the muslisms, IT'S THE ONLY WAY". '

Any better idea then? In case you didn't know, the religion is immobile, doesn't show any changes of improvement. On the contrary even. AND the number of muslims is rapidly raising thus also raising the number of dangerous muslims. Look at cities like Birmingham, you blind man, and extrapolate this (knowing birth rates) to the rest of the UK.

Things are looking grim for the future, drastic problems need drastic solutions. Or burn some more candles while you're at it and feel surprised when the next attack happens and the next and the next and the next. And before oyu know it, the attacks will stop because the dar- al harb (house of war- will have become the dar- al Islam (house of Islam/peace).
That's the end game I don't want to play, so better act sooner.

"or refusal to shake hands"

oh no, mah western cultur is in shambles because this man won't shake mah hand! Won't sumbuday think of the chillldrennn? *faints*

And fuck off: I didn't say ALL muslims, but those who are not aligned with and do not want to embrace western society. That's a large number but definitely not all.I want to radically remove those who form threats and radically welcome those who want to be a part of our society and nourish it instead of fight it.

hasnt the uk tightened their immigration policy

aside from that what do you propose as a solution bakker (serious question)

"However despite the tragedies like this most studies i've seen (in britain anyway) show that younger muslims and 2nd/3rd generation immigrants are more amd more embracing the democratic liberal western values,"

I want to see the source of your studies... I don't believe jack shit of it.

just blow up the whole planet. no people, no problems

Just blow up the sput server

"At some point we're going to have to start thinking about deporting every one who doesn't align with and doesn't want to embrace western society."

Get's called out on crazy deportation plan.

"Stop strawmanning me!"

To your points:
Sharia law is not the law of the land in europe. It is therfore a criminal offense when ppl. enact punishment based on "sharia-courts". I know there are a few "sharia-family-courts" in a few countries and those are really fucking stupid, don't get me wrong. But firstly, they are NOT criminal courts. Secondly as far as I know they are based on consent of all the participitants. (Yes we can argue about wheter an opressed women really can make that choice and I'll likely agree that she can't but this whole Sharia-Law thing is blown totally out of proportion.) If ppl. are advocating for introducing Sharia-Law into the court system, just vote against those ppl. because it's a horrible idea.

I also don't think that double nationalities are a particularly good idea, especially if it means that you can vote in both countries, which is the standard modle if I'm not totally misinformed. But how about we just get rid of that instead of deporting everyone.

Encroaching on the way you're citiziens dress or act in public (shaking hands) is highly problematic as well.

i read every artuma comment with daria's voice

"aside from that what do you propose as a solution bakker (serious question)"

No they only have slightly done so, brexit isn't completed yet to remind you.
And further solutions point to an assimilation policy and deportation for the worst cases (if it's feasible, if they have double nationalities or other means to deport them).

We can get the best immigration systems thinkable, the problem is already inside and keeps growing.

pig that's a good idea tbh

"just blow up the whole planet. no people, no problems
"
If everyone dies and no children need to suffer (immediate death), then I can actually live with that scenario LOL

Any better idea then? In case you didn't know, the religion is immobile, doesn't show any changes of improvement. On the contrary even. AND the number of muslims is rapidly raising thus also raising the number of dangerous muslims. Look at cities like Birmingham, you blind man, and extrapolate this (knowing birth rates) to the rest of the UK.
Things are looking grim for the future, drastic problems need drastic solutions.
That's the end game I don't want to play, so better act sooner."

Don't you get that ppl like you are the reason while terrorism is working? You are literally an agent of terror with this talk.

"Encroaching on the way you're citiziens dress or act in public (shaking hands) is highly problematic as well."
You missed the point of my example. It's what the refusal stands for not the refusal itself...

The rest of your post I will ignore 'cause it's just 'no, it's not, no that can' be done' and bla bla bla

I'm totally for identifying criminals/terrorists and getting them into prison or ejecting them from your country (although I think prison is more feasible in most cases, because unfortunately most of the countries just flat out refuse to take em) but this whole blanket-statement "muh culture is under attack, the cancer is spreading, bring on the police-state" is both stupid and dangerous.

"Don't you get that ppl like you are the reason while terrorism is working? You are literally an agent of terror with this talk."

Aaahh, pllleaase.... If anyone instigates terror due to someone who actually stands up for and stands solid for western society, that person is dangerous and and problematic in itself.

Shut your false moralism that costs lives every year.

"Just blow up the sput server"

it blows itself up like every second day anyway

"The rest of your post I will ignore 'cause it's just 'no, it's not, no that can' be done' and bla bla bla"

I suspect it's because you don't have any real points to make aside from your histrionics.

"Aaahh, pllleaase.... If anyone instigates terror due to someone who actually stands up for and stands solid for western society, that person is dangerous and and problematic in itself"

Standing solid for western society is fucking up a whole group of ppl because they are all guilty of the same thought crime? Don't you understand that there are better ways to tackle a problem than the nuclear option?

If you actually care to read my comments carefully you'd already know, ed...
I have to leave for my physiotherapist now

psychotherapist more like.

"assimilation policy"

pls elaborate

We need to cut the chord on terrorism. They're strong because they have control. Disassemble them and they're done for. We can't be afraid of them as unnerving as they are.

does this nigga bakker even talk about music

Posts are flying fast so I skipped over the assimilation policy comment:

I mean integration/assimilation policy is definitely needed. Refugees need to be somehow turned into participants of society, so there needs to be language courses and programms to accustom to local customs etc. But I guess it's fair to point out that we've been doing that already and it hasn't really worked that well. It's difficult for sure. (Unless we're deporting them all that's real easy ;) )

keybro hes rated 5 albums in the last 2 years chill ;]

"pls elaborate"

he prob wants to force them to watch vids of muslims properly eating fish n chips and saying things like oy mayt howsa bout we go down ta duh pub foar a pint an watch som cricket?

He takes his time digesting the albums guise.

"Later generations' history students will, after being asked to provide a major example forthe downfall of morality and culture in the twentieth/ 21st century, in large numbers citethis album's title and culprit for the making of it. In this regard, it is invaluable to future historians."

Yes he does discuss music.

i hate to be that guy but i really see both sides of these arguments pretty clearly (obviously there are extremes on the liberal vs conservative end both of which i don't agree with but alas)

and my conclusion is that there really is not much of a solution here and it's best to just accept that humanity in some areas of the world will probably always be a tad fucky and in a globalized world it's always going to spill over to the more "civilized" peaceful areas. there's just too many people on the planet covering too much space, and to think they can all be governed and "assimilated" is just irrational

Chuck you will literally end western civilization pls end yourself first.

I hope we all go extinct.

cant say i was surprised something "Islamic" was involved.. Maybe just a sign o the times.. idk..

He is basically stating "just let shit happen things are fucked and that's ok"

awful news, prayers go out to the victims' families
also, how civil is this thread /10?

"I hope we all go extinct."
Don't we all

on the sputscale it's a solid 5/10

can we deport bakkermaarten007 to the banlist already and delete 90% of the comments itt thanks

chuck talks some truth

Im really uncertain if just muslims will do like christians have/are doing: becoming less religious with time... so many muslims have their heads up their asses and refuse to modernize

loathe to admit it but agree with chuck. that's all that needs to be said really.

I agree with chuck as well. Look at everywhere we've interfered, we've only made the region more unstable and worse off.

who is we

'Muricans

What if 'let them get on with their own business' equates to 'let them get on with genocide, torture and the oppression of women'? Do people genuinely think that's just their own affairs? It is a valid argument. Just wondering.

What are the long and short term gains? We interfered in Iraq because of supposed WMDs and genocide, but we've also in turn created a vacuum that has caused even more genocide and blood shed. I'm all for stopping egregious acts of violence, but not if will result in creating a, unstable environment for evil to thrive.

and we all know it really was because of oil so who is the biggest asshole here

"What if 'let them get on with their own business' equates to 'let them get on with genocide, torture and the oppression of women'? Do people genuinely think that's just their own affairs? It is a valid argument. Just wondering."

I'm concerned with this as well, (think of Rwanda, where apathy from the western powers contributed to a horrendous genocide) but couldn't we "just" sanction them diplomatically and economically without bombing them. If you look at the history of the foreign policy of the US (and the EU to a lesser extent) there are VERY few interventions that could be counted as a sucsess.

Like it's stable now tho

"who is the biggest asshole here"

Definitely the ppl who throw gays of the rooftops and scream "death to all infidels" all the time. (False equivalencies are evil and need to stahp)

"I'm all for stopping egregious acts of violence, but not if will result in creating a, unstable environment for evil to thrive."

lol evil...
ever wondered what evil is spelled backwards?

'couldn't we "just" sanction them diplomatically and economically without bombing them.'

I don't know how many times diplomacy and economics as an approach has failed in the region. Obviously it's a tactic that has curtailed the aggression of USSR/Russia and North Korea in the past but they're their own beasts and you could argue in the case of North Korea it has possibly just delayed military intervention in the long run.

'He is basically stating "just let shit happen things are fucked and that's ok"

???

lol

no sir pls dont put words in my mouth, what i am saying is that though we can try our best to educate people and assimilate them, its never going to be perfect and there will always be spillover whether directly from immigrants at home or otherwise

"I agree with chuck as well. Look at everywhere we've interfered, we've only made the region more unstable and worse off."

mmmhm

we have to learn from history here, i know its a very malleable ongoing situation but its a failed experiment every time

what you have to ask yourself is what are our actual motives for interfering

strong point

the human race needs a culling of the herd

I fucking hate IS. Brainless cunt holes.

Unbelievable.. I won't make a whole statement or anything cause English is not my first language, just want to lose some frustration.

Little late to the thread, but still. R.I.P.

nice hate mr. stickfeit

Bakker is right on one accord. Totalitarian regimes are exactly how you curb things like Islamic terrorism. It's a tough reality to accept, but every time the US has killed a dictator in the Middle East, suddenly the country breaks down and Islamic radicals rise from the depths to power. This gives rise to other radicals inside Western countries who want nothing more than to see the country burn.

Face it, when we executed Saddam Hussein, we uncorked a bottle we never knew existed. Numerous evidence has shown that Saddam's oppressive regime, while disgusting, was a necessary evil that kept radical Islam centralized within their own individual countries. He disallowed any form of dissent, and that included radical Islamists. When we killed Saddam, suddenly the dissenters ran loose all over. Some were simple humanitarians, others were nutjobs.

Same thing in Libya. We killed Ghaddafi under the impression that Libya would begin their integration into a new Democratic society. It didn't, it fucking eroded. Suddenly, both Democratically elected leaders were ousted and, by 2014, Libya found itself in another Civil War, but with worse fighters. Now Derne and Sirte have fallen to Radical Islamists under the banner of Isil, taking advantage of a power vaccuum we caused.

Let me tell you, if you think the downfall of the Soviet Union was a good thing, you are sorely mistaken. The criminal organization that Putin once associated with (and may have gotten him into power) was barely as prolific as they are now. Simply because their existence posed a threat to the Soviet Government. Now, they control one of the largest military organizations.

The same thing will happen in Syria. Mark my words; if we completely oust Assad, the ramifications will be ten fold. We need to stop interfering in these regimes (Whether for malicious or humanitarian purposes). Simply because, every time we do, we cause these even worse monsters to rise from the bellys of the former villains.

leave it to caliggy to argue in favor of dictators.

no, totalitarianism breeds A) corruption B) contempt

totalitarianism is very much the main cause of these problems as is, under the guise of religion

@Zaruyache LOL I'm not defending dictators. I couldn't care if it did work, I don't want it in the US, or Britain, or any other Western countries. It still works though.

@Guitarded We were dealing with a shit ton less terrorism when Saddam and Ghaddafi were in power. There's a time and a place to be an idealistic humanitarian. This ain't one of em.

the more hard line 'anti -terrorism' policies - forced assimilation, harsher strictures on immigration/emigration and religious expression etc is going to lead to an increase in incidence of 'terrorist' acts such as this i have no doubt (at least the media will be happy i guess)

Not saying no action should be taken but everything balancing on a knife-edge at the moment and some ppl oughta stop suggesting shit dogmatically as tho the solution to terrorism just came to them

like i said above i agree that interference is a consistently failed experiment but i think the arab spring sequence of events would have more or less taken place eventually anyway

pressures on the totalitarian regimes were going to come internally regardless

i cant take someone seriously who wrote that sodom review last year

the IS wants to be hated
its whole agenda is to radicalize the west

Your 0.02 is worthless

good contribution

For God's sake (irony), stop saying like I somehow advocate totalitarian regimes! What I advocate is that we- on some accounts- lean more to it, but we'd still pretty damn far from it.
In short what I've said: We need an assimilation policy. those that we can't assimilate (and I mean assimilate on a macro scale), we need to either deport or restrict access to society. Looking at how rigid some islamic beliefs are and coupled to the birth rates, it is highly plausible that we need not to fear terror strikes within 30 years but a takeover that is hostile to our cultural heritage and our liberties.

TLDR: in order to keep our liberties we need to draw strict lines wherein beliefs that operate in grey zones (covered by religious nature) lose their legitimacy and become criminalized. In that frame we can halt and reverze terror strikes and islamization alike.

If I don't read this thread, will it make an impact?

I wonder what Tony would say if we could go back in time and put a stop to the mass influx. He could be shown the partially decapitated head of a solider on the streets of London, the maimed bodies and corpses of 7/7, the mass rapes of Rochdale, the numerous anti-terrorism raids, arrests and foiled acts, the majority inner city areas turned into 3rd world slums, the dead body of an 8yr old child going to a concert.

He would still say he was doing a 'good' thing. Him, you, me, us and them have all been subjugated and it's too damn late to do anything about it. The UK and parts of Europe are a wake up call to the rest of the world and yet people instantly reach out to hit the snooze button.

WAKE UP!!!! NOW!!!!!!!!!!

But would he stop bombing civilians?

You don't have to worry what Tony would say, he's still out there, God complex intact...

Fuckin tone. What a total bellend.

My condolences

I love the Atlantic Ocean so, so much.

who the fuck is Tony

#Kony2012

R.I.P. R.I.P so hard.

I've really had a gutful of these evil losers

Anyone who kills himself AND innocents in the process has been fucked in the head for many, many years... THIS is what needs to stop. Education needs to be radicalized. Tolerance is a virtue, not a right. You have to earn it, it's not something you just get. We 'tolerate' your middle age ways of living your life and how you treat others with violence, intolerance and disrepect for the countries that gave you shelter and somewhere to rebuild your life. Murder CANNOT be tolerated anymore. Get these people out of the west. Let them live their lives somewhere else.

"who the fuck is Tony

#Kony2012"

not sure if sarcasm but tony blair

How did the guy get in the foyer with a bomb?

He wouldn't have been searched, how dare the security services even contemplate it. Searching a Muslim at a grand event! Gasp!!! Racist!!!!!

i believe they said he had a security pass that meant he wouldn't get stopped or something

"
Anyone who kills himself AND innocents in the process has been fucked in the head for many, many years... THIS is what needs to stop. Education needs to be radicalized. Tolerance is a virtue, not a right. You have to earn it, it's not something you just get. We 'tolerate' your middle age ways of living your life and how you treat others with violence, intolerance and disrepect for the countries that gave you shelter and somewhere to rebuild your life. Murder CANNOT be tolerated anymore. Get these people out of the west. Let them live their lives somewhere else."

what kind of bullshit is this. there are Muslims indigenous to the west. 1/4 of African Americans are Muslim for example. the majority of attackers on Western soil are born and bred there including this one. we need to find a solution, but it's definitely not gonna be something as daft as 'kick them out'

this is the worst I've heard so far in recent memory. The death toll is higher, at least., Correct me if I'm wrong.

"born and bred there"

Is this true after the last couple years, a.k.a. Europe's economic migrant wave?

I believe security were complicit in the attack

He'd have been radicalised through the prison system.

i think the first solution would be banning all faith schools - education should be secular and as safe as possible, and also to have volunteers from muslim communities monitor mosques and fellow muslims in their area to prevent extremism

not a nice way to go about things but something needs to be done

I think that would make them angrier @ Sinternet

'Is this true after the last couple years, a.k.a. Europe's economic migrant wave?'

yeah most of the attackers in europe have been citizens of the country they attacked rather than migrants and refugees

Ghost it is at least for England. I don't think a single attack there was committed by a non Brit

from memory France was similar as well, and the ones that were immigrants weren't recent ones

That is such a ridiculous statement, banning faith based schools? Do you know how many catholic/jesuit/christian schools, colleges and universities are in the states?

I honestly think legalized prostitution would help cause a lot of them seem super sexually frustrated.

Do u guys really think that u can stop this? It only takes one fucker, this is just reality now.

yeah well what else is their to suggest? secularism is a key part of western democracy, if people can't be taught to respect and tolerate those of other beliefs then there's an issue and faith schools of all fsiths give notoriously shitty and narrow-minded education

also we need to not only stamp out extremists but make the majority peaceful muslim community feel appreciated and for them to not be blamed - promoting community policing is one way i think would help

You impose a ban on immigration. Gasp. RACIST!!!!!
You insist on independent bodies investigating Sharia councils, Mosques and faith schools. Gasp!! FASCIST!!!!!!!!!
The prison system needs to be overhauled, isolation for those who preach and try to convert inmates. OMG!!!!! Prisoners have rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and no one is talking about the states here, we're talking about europe here, not everything is about you yanks and especially not at a time like this

"Face it, when we executed Saddam Hussein, we uncorked a bottle we never knew existed."

The VP of the US predicted the exact quagmire of ME regime change years earlier and was still happy to send in the troops when the opportunity came.

"Do you know how many catholic/jesuit/christian schools, colleges and universities are in the states?"

The fact that there are a lot isn't really a justification as to why they're warranted/needed.

i dont think terrorism will ever cease to exist, it's always been there and always will, but we sure as hell can try and reduce it as much as possible

banning faith schools is treading into dangerous waters let's be real

Religious terrorism? In Western countries? On members of the same faith? With no coded warnings? And at such volume?

"The VP of the US predicted the exact quagmire of ME regime change years earlier and was still happy to send in the troops when the opportunity came."

mmmhm

like i said above, when you have a continuously failed experiment such as the american/western insurgencies you have to begin to question the real motives behind them

if it dont make dollars it dont make sense, war is a business like any other, america's wealth is based on imperialism, and THAT is why the middle east hates the west

Education fights terrorism/religion.

Get smart, get peace.

Well europe is fucked, we're in way to deep thanks to our great hospitality..

Yeah I don't like banning faith schools cause of muh libertarian leanings. But perhaps the government should look into getting more plants and informants in the radical Islamic community. I mean, that's probably the most efficient and practical way to strive for prevention, good ole fashion snitchin'.

but what good comes from faith schools? what purpose do they serve other than to promote a religious agenda? education should be secular, the longer kids are left unexposed to the outer world and have their ability to learn for themselves restricted, the longer it will take society to progress

Poland is alright. What have they done that's so different???? I'm scratching my head???????????

its less what good faith schools do and more what bad will come from trying to oppress religion

yeah no not a good idea

this oppression will breed more contempt WHICH IS THE EXACT GOAL OF ISIS

education is key, though this is very difficult to do cuz: 1) you need all teachers (and non-educational staff) to ACTUALLY GIVE A SHIT. 2) Police forces that are not fucking PIGS and dumbfucks.

Those 2 things will never, ever happen, so we are fucked, basically.

Snitchin' and prostitutes: Ghost's guide to mitigating Islamic terrorism.

we need more of this, minus the lame entrapment

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/20/fbi-informant

These kids get brainwashed by their parents first and foremost, banning faith schools would only create more hatred.

Yeah as I said plants are a good idea.

"These kids get brainwashed by their parents first and foremost"

Pretty sure lots of them get radicalized by the internet, actually.

there's nothing oppresive about it, people are free to practice their faiths and so are their children, but there needs to be something changed - too often these attackers are those who have been isolated from western culture and have failed to integrate because they cannot experience it the same way that those who are taught to treat all people as equals. Education should help children become more tolerant and be exposed to more knowledge and ideas, and I fail to see how faith schools can accomplish that when they are tied to the promotion of teaching of one faith above others.

banning their faith based education is oppression sinternet please are you really this fucking stupid

they want to do it, you tell them no, you enforce laws disallowing them the ability to do what they want, they have become oppressed in this regard

are you new or do you just not know the definition of oppression

and since you are apparently new let me further educate you in telling you that - people historically do not react very kindly to religious oppression

lol at that article Key dude.

Pillow Talk!
"The earth moved, must be the 40 pound of Semtex strapped to your vest, so fancy a bombing?"

I'm sure kids at Notre Dame, Villanova, Georgetwon, Boston College, Gonzaga, Xavier and plenty more are getting just fine educations and are hardly radical, if anything are super liberal.

Parenting is #1 problem. We need secret police to snitch 'em out. Maybe whores, too...

Haven't you learned nothing from the witchunts? Paranoia only breeds more resentment.

most of these dudes get radicalized online. the majority of Muslims have had some kind of faith schooling whether that's Sunday school or whatever, and they turned out fine. same goes for Christians and others. they're really not the culprit

yeah thats the other thing, if you selectively decide to ban islamic faith based schools you'll fan the flames of discontent even greater, which is what they would do. they aren't going to close christian based schools.

Why are we even still talking about faith schools? Banning them is a ridiculous idea, and it would never happen anyway.

"Why are we even still talking about faith schools? Banning them is a ridiculous idea, and it would never happen anyway."

yeah i know, sinternets hashtage woke dumb utopian opinions just trigger me hard

To Sinternet's credit he's at least willing to admit radical Islam is uniquely problematic, something that many of his compatriots refuse to do.

As a radical Islamist I feel unnecessarily stereotyped. I laugh, live and love and don't want to murder and mamie. I want lo live in an Islamic world, is that really too much to ask?

yeah ok bro you can stop taking the moral high ground over this

all i'm doing is suggesting ideas, because at the moment there are one group of people who mourn and then never learn to prevent these things happening, and another group who want any excuse to get rid of the 'dirty foreigners' and breed hate and violence. what i'm trying to suggest is a middle ground because i'm ngl this has kinda shaken me more than any other attack of recent - i have family living in that area and they heard it and saw the scenes of people trying to run away - it could have been them that died (hell i'm surprised my cousin didn't go to the gig considering she's a big ariana fan) - there needs to be a way to stop this extremism without hurting the 99% of muslims who are peaceful and fully integrated into our society, and I don't need people like you being smug about it

"To Sinternet's credit he's at least willing to admit radical Islam is uniquely problematic, something that many of his compatriots refuse to do."

a bit of islamic apologetics is alright but yeah blind defense thereof is just a clear sign of lack of perspective for anyone who has any at all, but to be honest the same can be said for most other thing's he says

oh to be young and ignorant

oh i shot down his opinions, now i'm being "smug" and "taking the moral high ground"

fuck yourself kid

"but what good comes from faith schools?"

Atheists.

you realise you're a proper twat right?

I hear ya sin but I disagree. No fucking way are 99% fully integrated into our society. What country do you live in???

which one of us is the one who is the twat, the one trying to have a debate or the one countering the other by calling him smug

grow up, honestly

closing down faith based schools is not middle ground. it is hard lined all-the-way legal control.

'yeah i know, sinternets hashtage woke dumb utopian opinions just trigger me hard'

yeah really having a debate there bud

yeah well your unrealistic utopian views are actually the definition of smug IMO

'I hear ya sin but I disagree. No fucking way are 99% fully integrated into our society. What country do you live in???'

yeah 99% was an exaggaration but the majority are lovely people, my college had a large number of muslim students who i became good friends with and they and their community were all lovely

This goes back to the Sam Harris thing, which while I'm certainly not a fan of his, he addressed the whole 99% thing in that there are actual jihadists (less than 1% of Western Muslims), but there's the soft-radical circle (think those who believe it's okay to kill people for drawing Mohammed, would not report to police known jihadist activities, or those who believe in FGM or stoning women who commit adultery) which is actually shockingly larger than one might expect.

Ooh let's get angry at each other. That will show 'em.

"This goes back to the Sam Harris thing, which while I'm certainly not a fan of his, he addressed the whole 99% thing in that there are actual jihadists (less than 1% of Western Muslims), but there's the soft-radical circle (think those who believe it's okay to kill people for drawing Mohammed, would not report to police known jihadist activities, or those who believe in FGM or stoning women who commit adultery) which is actually shockingly larger than one might expect."

mmmhm and it's not hard to surmise a scenario in which a large portion of them tend towards contempt for the west in the face of these theoretical oppressive policies (which, to reiterate, is the exact goal of ISIS)

what dont you like about sam harris ghost

http://www.comresglobal.com/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/

These numbers, for instance, are really, really scary.

"what dont you like about sam harris ghost"

His politics. We see the role of the state very differently, Sam and I. His religion stuff is mostly on point tho, even if I do find him overly condescending when speaking about it.

yeah ive only recently started listening to some of his podcasts and stuff so i'm not really sure of his state views but he can certainly be a condescending mother fucker lol

You'd probably see more eye-to-eye with him re how much government should be involved in various matters than I do, cause as you know I'm quite far on the "right" politically.

That whole "25 percent" sympathizing with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attack freaks me out

passive jihadist are as dangerous as the terrorists themselves.

CUT OFF THEIR FUNDING, FFS, YOU CORRUPT FUCKS!!!!

"really, really scary"
"freaks me out"

I can hardly breathe from fear of muslims. I know it's only like 35% of them that are radicalized potential suicide bombers. But still.

35% of them are true Muslims to 70% of moderate Muslims.

their prophet was literally a warmonger... Islan IS a violent religion based around war and conquering your enemies (a.k.a everyone who isn't you). I'm not saying it's the ONLY problem, but it's a fucking shitty religion. Even shittier than most.

Can't tell when people are being seriously racist or just ironically racist on here

Muslims aren't a racial group.

how is hating a religion racist? Religion isn't about race, halfwit.

It could be considered prejudicial

I consider the "you are" versus "you choose to be" aspect. "You are" white/black/etc., but "you choose to be" Muslim/Christian/etc.

"Can't tell when people are being seriously racist or just ironically racist on here"

wheres the racism.

Westerners who choose a middle eastern religion must have inferior genes.

radicaled appreciation post

"It could be considered prejudicial"


prejudice is an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

Prejudice is not the correct word either.

"Westerners who choose a middle eastern religion must have inferior genes."

Christianity is a middle eastern religion

got em

God I have the perfect meme to post, Sputnik, pls allow pictures again

I have friends who just arrived in the UK. But RIP to all the victims.
Not even gonna comment on the gross xenophobia I see here.

I live nearby, some of my friends were there, they're all okay, shaken but okay. Anyone making xenophobic comments, congrats, you're giving the terrorists exactly what they want, fucking idiots.

Xenophobia. Fuck off back to ya own planet ya nine legged cunt.

"Christianity is a middle eastern religion"

You got the point!

Legit know someone who thinks xenophobia is the fear of xenomorphs. He also thinks black people should still be slaves. He's a cunt

I only have Xenophobia for Xenomorph's tbh

damnit Egg

"I only have Xenophobia for Xenomorph's tbh" [2]

"In Modern Britain everybody is terrified of saying officially what we all say in private"

Morrissey.

pussies

"their prophet was literally a warmonger"

Muhammed preached -- and the Quran says -- that Christians and Jews are "protected people" because they worship the same god by the wrong name.

Tbh the Quran contradicts itself all over the place and can be used to explicitly justify almost anything.

"Tbh the Quran contradicts itself all over the place and can be used to explicitly justify almost anything."
The Quran's later verses supersede the earlier verses, that's how it should be read. And coincidentally the earlier verses are the ones most often used to defend Islam...

"Anyone making xenophobic comments, congrats, you're giving the terrorists exactly what they want, fucking idiots. "
If the terrorist wanted you not to jump down the cliff, you'd jump?

r.i.p. to the victims and thoughts for their friends and family

nvm

fuck you all you're all repulsive

very very sad what happened in Manchester, I hope those affected find peace

world's going crazy (crazier?)

"radicaled appreciation post"

thx bby.

Islamism is a cancer, and until it's largely banished from Europe through completely cutting ties with Saudi Arabia and forbidding them to build Salafist mosques throughout the continent and significantly restricting immigration, this will only continue. And fuck anyone who draws a moral equivalency between Islam and the Judaeo-Christian tradition; Islam is a political religion that was built around the notion of conquering and eliminating diversity. It's fundamentally incompatible with secular values in every sense.

Stupidity is a fucking cancer, and until it's banished from Sputnik, this will only continue.

"Islamism is a fucking cancer"

sociopaths carrying out and exacting their twisted, barbaric will in the name of islam is cancer***

^ that is literally Islamism. And it's not a few bad apples. How many people have to die until people stop using this line of argument? It's a shit religion built on bigotry, hatred of the other, and it's not compatible with liberal or social democracy. Furthermore, Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists don't blow themselves up en masse time after time for redemption in the afterlife.

so every single muslim is a "bad apple" ? you genuinely believe this?

I obviously didn't say that.

i think it's important not to conflate islam with radical islam // wahhabism

I think it's important to understand the whole ideology is a mess

Honestly, I would be the first person to just let the Middle East deal with their oppressive regimes by itself, but I'd rather it not come within the West too.

Regardless of how you feel about the Muslims already here, they are protected by the rights given to them by these countries. I've talked to many of my Muslim friends, and my Muslim ex-girlfriend. They all tell me how these new refugees concern them, because they know how "moderates" are treated by the radicals in the Middle East. They're scared shitless, more so than we are. They don't want to openly criticize it because they just want to live in peace, and making them do it because of the radical morons in their religion is ridiculous.

I'm still sticking with my earlier point. It's a horrible reality to accept, but our interference in Middle Eastern affairs has let loose some poisonous apples that were largely being contained in the beginning. You can pretend this isn't the case, that's fine, but don't try and make me believe in that nonsense. Our "Helping" has only made things worse. And yeah, I know you're going to say "So we just let them suffer so we don't have to deal with these crazies?" Yeah. Sucks, but not everyone is going to be peaceful in this world and we need to accept it.

Seriously though, advocating we add these oppressive regimes in the West is stupid. Yeah it will work on cranking down on radical jihadists, but I'd rather have bombs going off than lose the freedom's my forefathers fought for. I'm not having that shit in the US, regardless of whether it works or not.

Also Bakker, you are asking for textbook totalitarianism. For God's sake man just stop pretending.

agreed. they were better off before the US came and tore up the place, even with a bastard of a leader.

"I'd rather have bombs going off than lose the freedom's my forefathers fought for."

lol.

"agreed. they were better off before the US came and tore up the place, even with a bastard of a leader."

Well I wouldn't go that far, but sure.

@Zakalwe Problem? Sorry if I value my freedoms over my safety.

The 'freedoms' your forefathers fought for won't be worth a wank mate. The freedoms of those parents who've had children murdered for simply attending a pop concert are forever lost.
The children whose futures, liberties and freedoms have been ripped away in an act of deslusional callousness will not get a chance to live. A 'right' that we apparently all have as part of the human race, wiped clean off the face of the earth for eternity.

But it's ok because 'your' freedoms are still intact, till the next bomb goes off.
Fucking idiot.

lol, oh zak.

Nah. I'm sorry dude I'm just sick of it.

People need not understand anything about islam, to see that an immensely sized share of evil, bloodshed and other wrongdoings is committed in name of Islam. To try to defend Islam with the no-true-scotsman argumennt ("Islam is peace" "these are not muslims) is so non-sensical.

"Also Bakker, you are asking for textbook totalitarianism. For God's sake man just stop pretending."

You got me...

People don't want to see their freedom compromised. I'm sick of hearing people talk about their freedoms and behave like cowardly cattle. When they speak of freedom, they speak of the freedom to fuck around. The freedom to consume. The freedom to sing John Lennon songs while crying in self-absorbed projection.

They are free to become overrun, like the defenseless numbed creatures they are.
True freedom is to belong in a place that makes sense and a nation that offers hope for the future. What hope is there? Can you see any prospect of a prosperous future, 'cause I sure can't. But I'm willing to fight for it to turn that around!

Love ya bak

Likewise zak

Part of today's existential crisis is the slow realization that we are standing on the shoulder of giant morons. There are no solutions looking back.

England and USA has fucked up the middle east. And still is - currently we're looking at that 300 billion arms deal between USA and Saudi Arabia.
And remember how Trump said it was a mistake to throw bombs in ME and make more enemies? We all thought 'hey, that's reasonable!' Remember how he did it anyway and gloated about it?

It's a horrible cliche but you reap what you sow. We need to clean our own beds first, and there's your prospect of a prosperous future.
It's just a lot harder than doing this rerun of fear and hate we seem to like so much.

Bollocks. There's no reason whatsoever to be a British born Muslim who gets radicalised to a point of detonating a nail bomb among a crowd of kids at a concert.

Plus there's all the other unpleasantness that comes with Islam that has absolutely fuck all to do with western interference in the Middle East but yeah western society is to blame because the blame has to lie absolutely anywhere but with a 'minority' group.

People who identify as christians have killed way more civilians in the ME than muslims have in the west.
And caused way, way more instability.

No amount of saying bollocks to people can change that fact.

Muslims killing Muslims in acts of terrorism doesn't quite add up though does it. Doesn't fit the agenda does it.

What's funny is that these jihadists have stated their intentions and goals many times, as if they are themselves sick of some of the rhetoric from obscurantists. Yes, there are terrestrial grievances, but the more prevalent ones are rooted in an overriding religious identity, pg 30; http://clarionproject.org/factsheets-files/islamic-state-magazine-dabiq-fifteen-breaking-the-cross.pdf
"What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list. The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you"

"True freedom is to belong in a place that makes sense and a nation that offers hope for the future."

LOL. bet he's got an american flag teddy to snuggle too

@piglet Disgusting

"People who identify as christians have killed way more civilians in the ME than muslims have in the west.
And caused way, way more instability."

Bollocks. For one, we always target militarized zones. Have there been some civilians caught in the wake a few times? Sure... but you won't see the US intentionally targeting innocent children like that. Never thought I'd see people making excuses for the brutal murder of children

"People don't want to see their freedom compromised. I'm sick of hearing people talk about their freedoms and behave like cowardly cattle. When they speak of freedom, they speak of the freedom to fuck around. The freedom to consume. The freedom to sing John Lennon songs while crying in self-absorbed projection.

They are free to become overrun, like the defenseless numbed creatures they are.
True freedom is to belong in a place that makes sense and a nation that offers hope for the future. What hope is there? Can you see any prospect of a prosperous future, 'cause I sure can't. But I'm willing to fight for it to turn that around!"

that's your idea of freedom

the next person has another

ad infinitum

and therefore imposing controls only breeds contempt

which, for the umpteenth time, is the exact goal of isis

Wow Bak and Zak the worst dynamic duo in the history of sputnik. Congratz.

"Muslims killing Muslims in acts of terrorism doesn't quite add up though does it. Doesn't fit the agenda does it."

Are you really this stupid or is this some kind of irony I'm not getting.

I miss the days when the left was unabashedly against religion. Now, so many segments of the centre-left like the Third Way (though they only care about cheap labour and not alienating donors) and the far-left have embraced either a religious pluralism or attack Christianity and Judaism (mostly because of Israel and the occupation) but dismiss all criticism of Islam as Islamophobic and bigoted. It's absolutely absurd how Islam gets a fucking pass when they're a religion that's built on bigotry and political conquest with absolutely no regard to democracy and actual pluralism.

"The 'freedoms' your forefathers fought for won't be worth a wank mate. The freedoms of those parents who've had children murdered for simply attending a pop concert are forever lost.
The children whose futures, liberties and freedoms have been ripped away in an act of deslusional callousness will not get a chance to live. A 'right' that we apparently all have as part of the human race, wiped clean off the face of the earth for eternity."

"Those who prefer security over freedom deserve neither."

~Ben Franklin

I never said it wasn't selfish. However, I'm not giving up my rights, it's not happening. I don't care how violent it gets.

"Have there been some civilians caught in the wake a few times?"

A FEW? Obama's drone strikes killed loads and loads and loads of civilians please stfu.


"I miss the days when the left was unabashedly against religion."

we stopped being able to do that years ago once the right got on the xenophobia bandwagon and started criticizing muslims for existing. the left defends poor people but isn't really good at it but at least they try.

Yeah...
It's tempting to get angry, simplify and ridicule your 'opponents' (who have 99% in common with you), but it clearly doesn't solve anything.

"A FEW? Obama's drone strikes killed loads and loads and loads of civilians please stfu."

I just love how Obama got away with this shit and so many pretend it never happened.

"we stopped being able to do that years ago once the right got on the xenophobia bandwagon and started criticizing muslims for existing. the left defends poor people but isn't really good at it but at least they try."

mmmhm

there's a big difference between sympathizing with the innocent good people born in those regions who wish to peacefully practice islam, and sympathizing with radical islamists

i could go on about how it was all fine and dandy when the right used to be all pro religion but now they hate all muslims but that would also be reaching and mostly just as inaccurate a comment

Yes but the Left is downright defending anyone, regardless of whether they are radicals or not.

This is one of the leaders of the women's march. http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/andrew-eicher/womens-march-national-co-chair-says-sharia-law-reasonable-and

Yes but the Right is downright discriminatory to anyone who isn't a white business class Christian

see we can do this all day and it's useless

the division in your country is one of the biggest problems right now and this kind of finger pointing based on generalizations is counterproductive and only fuels the problem

holy cow you tellin me some muslims are in favor of following islam woa calligy slow down your wrecking my brain

"we stopped being able to do that years ago once the right got on the xenophobia bandwagon and started criticizing muslims for existing. the left defends poor people but isn't really good at it but at least they try."


Most have good intentions; I wouldn't deny that whatsoever. I'm a socialist, and it's just infuriating seeing neoliberalism like New Labour's hide under the facade of socialism to put this issue at the forefront at the expense of actual economic justice for the working class, and it's one of the largest reasons why the working class is moving to the right across Europe and the U.S.. Macron in France is probably the most infuriating example of this, and if he hadn't have ran, it's entirely possible that Mélenchon could have won, and his platform though far from perfect in my view, addressed both issues.

"see we can do this all day and it's useless

the division in your country is one of the biggest problems right now and this kind of finger pointing based on generalizations is counterproductive and only fuels the problem"

Well said.

Many of these islamist terrorists were perceived as 'good citizens' by their neighbours and relatives. The culture of deceit and manipulation runs deep in the islamic faith and gullible westerners fall for it.

Many of these zionists were perceived as 'good citiziens' by the good aryan people. But the culture of deceit and manipulation runs deep in the judaic faith and gullible germans fall for it.

Many of these Christians were perceived as 'good citiziens' by the good Aboriginal people. But the culture of deceit and manipulation runs deep in the Christian faith and gullible Native Americans fell for it.

Guise I'm defending western culture here.

Many of these Mods were perceived as 'good citiziens' by the good SputnikMusic people. But the culture of deceit and manipulation runs deep in the Mods faith and gullible Sputnikers fell for it.

Jack I'll think you'll find that Franklin quote is not quite what you think it is.



Anyways. It's only recently that Muslims have been demonised for the purposes of divide and conquer. For the past 2000 odd years they have promoted peace, prosperity, individual freedom and equality for all. They never entered the slave trade, never committed genocide, never subjugated or imposed their values and beliefs on anybody.
They've always Integrated fully into the cultures they expand into and our welcoming of different cultures into the Middle East facilitating differences while all the while remaining tolerant to all those with differing religious beliefs or personal values.

They've never declared war, never invaded, never imprisoned. They are the most altruistic group of people on the planet.

Christians though? Fuck me what a massive bunch of evil cunts. I hate them.

Congratz zak you burned down yet another ridiculous strawman.

z's lost it

too much murdoch media for old zachary

So calling Islam out for the cancer that it is necessarily makes you a Murdoch-sympathetic right-winger? Where's your argument?

zakalwe is totally right if I understand this correctly. He is just calling out people for being weak and not understanding that there is a clear connection between creating terrorists and Islam. It is clearly an Islamic issue that creates radicalized members. Instead of addressing this issue weak people instead say well Christians did bad things in the past and do bad things today as well. Who are these people arguing with? People who are in favor of injustices that Christians have done and continue to do. How about we address a much greater problem in Islamic terrorism instead of creating false equivalences and bringing up injustices that happened 1000's of years ago.

By the way I am a left leaning Liberal. So if you want to toss labels on me go ahead. Congrats on beefshoes for exposing the label tossing by sinternet.

the point is its hypocritical to denounce an entire religion while defending another

fuck both of them

fuck all of them

satanisms cool hey

Ok, I understand that if zakalwe was bashing Islam but praising Christianity I would agree with you. I don't really see where he was doing that. Also, I agree fuck them all. However, fuck them all and on a spectrum is a better response. Fuck Islam, for subjugating women, killing apostates, beaheadings, being responsible for 99.7% of all terrorist attacks, killing gays and atheists etc. etc. Fuck Christianity for spreading their ideology to Africa, being anti-abortion, being anti-gay, etc. Fuck Jews for making great T.V. shows and films, and fuck the orthodox Jews. These things are not in the same realm of fuckery. Understand it is a spectrum and understand the group that deserves the most FUCK.

that is what he is doing, read between the lines

i mean i was the one suggesting solutions i think would work and getting shit on so w/e

i despise religion, but some are obviously worse than others... buddhism is my favorite