DrGonzo1937: METAL GEAR SOLID Ranked

DrGonzo1937 04.19.20	I'll admit, playing MGS4 spurred this list's creation. I can't tell you how much I detest that game. And I initially enjoyed it upon its release.
JohnnyoftheWell 04.19.20	I really need to play these games; currently have no console but was thinking of picking a used one up sometime. Backwards compatible PS3 the way to go for them?
mynameischan 04.19.20	you can play all of them except for mgs1 through the playstation now service. you can find mgs1 in the ps3 digital store tho, yeah. i think i'd still put mgs3 on top, and i'll always have a soft spot for mgs4, which was the first ps3 game i ever played (though it has many flaws, as you've said in your list). i would give almost anything for a full series remake with mgs5's gameplay which was basically flawless.
JohnnyoftheWell 04.19.20	neat!! will cough up for a ps4 at some point, cheers :]:]
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	The final sequence with the boss in mgs3 is still probably the best moment in any video game
mynameischan 04.19.20	pretty sure you can even get psnow for pc the best moment in any video game is isshin ashina saying "well..done...sekiro" after you beat him
JohnnyoftheWell 04.19.20	the best moment in any video game is the nier automata end credits, but isshin is a strong runner up
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Never got there. I beat the second genishiro fight and I was like ehhh I'm good. The only other moment I can think of is the whistling scene in disco elysium
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Ending e is very good damn true
mynameischan 04.19.20	nier has like 10 greatest video game moments haven't played disco elysium yet but hopefully it comes to ps4 this year
south_of_heaven 11 04.19.20	MGS3 Snake Eater > MGS > MGS 2 > MGS 4 > MGS Phantom Pain. Never even finished Phantom Pain, was just a big "wtf is going on here" but yes MGS4 was pretty bad. More cutscenes than actual gameplay. MGS 3, MGS, and MGS 2 are all 9/10 and above though.
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Disco plays on potato laptops pretty well but I know za//um said console ports should be out this year. I would 100% buy that game on switch
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Phantom Pain is still maybe the best playing stealth game ever.
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Imagine the phantom pain systems and design philosophy but applied to a coop experience. The mind absolutely BOGGLES at the possibilities
mynameischan 04.19.20	one person gets to be venom snake, the other gets to be d-dog
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	I was thinking more it'd be the online character you make but that is also good yes
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	No one is allowed to be quiet for reasons
mynameischan 04.19.20	also since we're on the topic of kojima, death stranding rules
Gallantin 04.19.20	3 = V > 4 > 1 > 2 > PW That's my official ranking
Gallantin 04.19.20	Death Stranding is a 10/10 game with a 1/10 story
Gallantin 04.19.20	Disco Elysium is a 10/10 game in all aspects. Kojima wishes he could write with even a sliver of the quality Disco Elysium is written with, and that's definitely not something I just projected onto him
Gallantin 04.19.20	All the MGS4 hate does't really make much sense to me because for some reason people actually had expectations for Kojima as a writer. He's a bad writer. He always has been. The reason his games are so fun are for his incredibly unique gameplay design innovations, and story-wise, well: the camp. It's tragic goofy garbage and always has been. MGS4 is goofy garbage Otacon-pissing-himself-level grandiose fan-service of self-serving stupidity that it's fucking wonderful. Ocelot in MGS4 is the greatest villain of all time. MGS4 is the DEFINING Metal Gear Solid story, and anyone who thinks otherwise was deluded by the few times Kojima stumbled blindly into a few poignant moments in the previous games.
Gallantin 04.19.20	Comment spam here but man I really love MGSV. That game is perfect. I love all the dumb repeated side ops. The game design is so open that each one on their own can still be a unique mission with exciting variables. The fact that the game seems to be missing half its story actually feels weirdly thematically resonant in a way that works, the game feels better for not having any satisfying conclusions. Because we all know if the game was actually finished properly, Kojima would almost certainly have made it worse. MGSV is my comfort game. Might even be my favourite of all time. I've put hundreds of hours into it and the fact that it's not bogged down by MGS's usual setpieces and cutscenes makes it so much better to go back to. The only other game that comes close to that pure gameplay freedom is 3, which is perfect in other ways. Dumbest spy action game ever and I love it to death.
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	I mean the kid soldier island is the dumbest shit kojima ever came up with until death stranding so
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Actually I'm sorry I forgot about the vagina bomb nevermind
Gallantin 04.19.20	Sorry, even more comment spam: The reason Death Stranding fails so badly as a narrative is that Kojima bought his own hype and sniffed his own farts so much that he thought he actually WAS a good writer and attempted an almost entirely serious story. All the characters are so deadpan and lifeless. And when they do say something utterly ridiculous, it just comes across as sooooo bad because the characters aren't crazy and fun. Amelia saying Mario and Princess Beach is just fucking awful because who the fuck is this woman? She's no one. She's the most boring character on the planet. Now when Ocelot kisses Snake at the end of MGS4? It's fucking fantastic. Ocelot is a madman. What the fuck will this genius do next? The whole "oh Kojima didn't wanna make this game" argument doesn't sit well with me either. Kojima didn't want to make MGS3 either but he was basically forced into it. Same with 4 and 5. And all three of those games are better mechanically than MGS 1 and 2 (and don't get me started on MGS1 and 2's stories being wildly overrated. MGS2 wasn't good because of the bullshit post-modern ooh spooky memes shit, it was good bc fucking OCELOT'S LIQUID-GHOST ARM and the fucking THIRD Big Boss clone who was older than the others and also used to be the president and nobody ever picked up on it). Kojima wanted to make Death Stranding since like 2003 or something and it was his absolute WORST game narratively. The man doesn't produce better stories because he wants to. He lucked his way into semi-poignant themes like...twice, and that could also just be attributed to the fact that he had other, better co-writers working with him at the time. Anyway MGS is the best game series of all time, thank you for not reading any of my dumbass takes.
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Mgs2s story is good now because it has a lot of the templates of interesting 21st century storytelling before anyone else was really doing it.
McTime50 04.19.20	isn't death stranding quite literally a walking simulator
Gallantin 04.19.20	It is, but it's the best walking simulator ever made.
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	If we're gonna stretch the boundaries of walking simulator like that outer Wilds is def better than DS lol
Gallantin 04.19.20	I mean Outer Wilds isn't a walking simulator though 90% of Death Stranding's mechanics are about simulating walking and world traversal.
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	It's about interlocking inventory and travel mechanics with an emphasis on social building mechanics All you really so in outer Wilds is walk and fly a ship while looking at stuff. I think it is at least as close as DS in a design sense even though you do more than "walk"
Phantom 04.19.20	Snake Eater is my favourite. I also enjoyed Metal Gear Rising, despite it being a hack 'n' slash.
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Metal Gear Rising is the best game of the ps3/360 era
Phantom 04.19.20	I initially didn't like it when it was announced, as it was such a departure from the Metal Gear style, but I decided to give it a chance and ended up really liking it.
Gallantin 04.19.20	Metal Gear Rising rules yea "It's about interlocking inventory and travel mechanics with an emphasis on social building mechanics" Nah it's mostly about walking The "social building" mechanics aren't nearly as prevalent as all the uh, walking mechanics
AtomicWaste 04.19.20	I refuse to look back on MGS2 with any sort of rose-tinted glasses. It was a big, fun, replayable game, but the characters and story were just bizarre - and not in any real endearing or impressive way. And, lest we forget: I NEED SCISSORS! 69!
Source 04.19.20	mgs1 is the greatest game ever made
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	Source is your name Dan Ryckert
Source 04.19.20	no it's actually david hayter
hxciluvatarhxc 04.19.20	shit
Gallantin 04.19.20	MGS1 rulz yea
Madbutcher3 04.19.20	i think it literally just goes 1 2 3 4 5 but whatever
Source 04.19.20	probably 1 4 2 3 5
Gallantin 04.19.20	Guys I already settled this with my definitive ranking, it's 3/5 4 1 2
DrGonzo1937 04.20.20	“Guys I already settled this with my definitive ranking, it's 3/5 4 1 2” That ranking is all kinds of wrong
DrGonzo1937 04.20.20	"All the MGS4 hate does't really make much sense to me because for some reason people actually had expectations for Kojima as a writer. He's a bad writer. He always has been. The reason his games are so fun are for his incredibly unique gameplay design innovations, and story-wise, well: the camp. It's tragic goofy garbage and always has been." He's not a bad writer per se; he's had some great ideas and themes over the years. The problem is that he needs someone to rein him in and make something practical out of those ideas. I won't argue it's Kojima's penchant for excellent and innovative game design that makes MGS games so appealing, but it's a little bit of a disservice to outright call him a shoddy writer when he's done some great and unique things in his time. You can't really say Tomokazu Fukushima was the hidden genius behind the first few games, because no one really knows what he did, but it's a bit of a coincidence that Fukushima worked on the writing with Kojima for MGS 1-3 -- the strongest narratives in the series -- and then seeing Kojima's storylines plummeting hard after 3 because Fukushima left the company. But even with that aside, my biggest beefs with MGS4 come from a variety of areas: the fucking terrible, bloated story; the overall aesthetic of the game is generic and bland (bar the Europe mission, which looks nice but is marred with being the worst level in the entire game); and the gameplay somehow plays worse than its predecessor, which was made 4 years prior and on a last gen console. I dunno, the gameplay feels like a rough draft of good ideas (which would be perfected in MGSV) being executed sloppily.
Gallantin 04.20.20	He doesnt need anyone to rein him in because his worst writing is when he's taking it the most seriously His best writing is when he's literally just shitting out every batshit idea he can think of
DrGonzo1937 04.20.20	Right, because moments like meryl’s capture, sniper wolf, the boss or grey fox’s deaths, or the fact solidus turned out to be an antihero have no emotional punch or effect to them at all. He might have a lot of crazy ideas, but the serious stuff is just as impactful and important as the goofy stuff.
Gallantin 04.20.20	4 is the most impactful emotionally and thats because it's the goofiest. 4 is the ultimate MGS story.
Gallantin 04.20.20	MGS is like the video game equivalent of The Room. It's good because of how endrlearingly goofy it is.
DrGonzo1937 04.20.20	Dude, you are definitely trolling me lol
Gallantin 04.20.20	Also MGS4's gameplay is great. It lacks the depth of 3 or the versatility of 5, but its still leagues ahead of 1 and 2's gameplay
Gallantin 04.20.20	The Boss's death gets to me the same way the Terminator's death gets to me in T2. And it's not because I think T2 is a brilliantly poignant and emotionally well-written film.
solrage 04.20.20	I quit gaming for about the past 10 years and just recently came back to it. Back in the day, MGS was right there with Ocarina of Time as my favorite game ever. I vividly remember the MGS2 hype. I did play it, but most of it went right over my head back then. So when I got back into gaming, MGS2 was one of the first games I played. It was meant to be a refresher before playing the rest of the series. So I played it last year and was really blown away by how thematically deep it was and how far ahead of its time it was. It was like Kojima was looking into the future with the rise of social media and fake news bubbles. The fact that it turns all of this onto the player, including their expectations of what MGS2, or even gaming in general, is supposed to be was doubly brilliant. There's only a handful of works of art in any medium that have so masterfully turned on its audience in a similar way, and it took balls of steel for Kojima to do that. Very much looking forward to playing 3-5. Gallantin is off his rocker with the "Kojima is a bad writer" shit. Yes, by the very limited western standards of "show, don't tell," that's very much against melodrama, camp, anti-realism, etc. then maybe Kojima is a bad writer; but I'd argue STRONGLY that's not the tradition Kojima is working in. Kojima is more like if Godard had a baby with Douglas Sirk and Andrzej Żuławski; take the dense, theme-centric nature of later Godard, combine it with Sirk's melodrama and Zulawski's penchant for off-the-wall, WTF-ness, and you have the genius of Kojima. There are plenty of writers that can do "show, don't tell," with character development, nuances, and backstory; who maintain realism, who know how to develop and tie up plot threads, who balk at doing anything that comes close to being "over the top..." and most of them are boring as shit. I'll take the writers with something original say who can do it in an equally original way, and that's absolutely Kojima.
theacademy 04.20.20	well look what we have here cracks knuckles
Gallantin 04.20.20	Lol Kojima is far from an original writer Game designer, yes Not a writer.
Zig 04.20.20	Need to play MGS 2
solrage 04.20.20	Kojima's writing is within and FOR the medium of video games; you can't just extract the plot/script as if it was a novel and critique it as literature. The fact that he went so metafictional in MGS2 WAS original in the context and medium he was working in.
Gallantin 04.20.20	MGS2 is the worst MGS from a gameplay perspective so its metanarrative means nothing for it being a good game, and no, it doesn't suddenly make it an original work of thematic genius While parts of its gameplay DO serve the narrative, it does not do anything particularly innovative and original in its pairing of the two. Kojima has almost always been behind the rest of the industry when it comes to employing narrative through gameplay. MGS has and always will be far too dependent on its cinematic inspirations. And that's okay. The story doesn't need to be original and innovative to be good. I love MGS. It's my favourite game series of all time. I've played it since the first game was released and loved it more and more as it goes on. I just don't get this insistence people have for giving more significance towards something's quality than it's worth. You're allowed to admit that Kojima is a sub-par writer at best. Him having ideas and themes doesn't make him a good writer. It's okay to like things without them being unmitigated works of genius. MGS is not a narratively brilliant series. It's one of my favourite stories of all times, but that's not for any metanarrative genius or (fucking LOL) "prophetic" qualities. It's campy, on-the-nose political commentary fiction on the state of our world. And it works! It's funny, it's charming, and it's allowed to be dumb as fuck. That's why it's so good. It's so shamelessly dumb and over the top, that when it's making any real points, it's elevated by how ridiculous a skin its wrapped in. Anyway best game series ever
Gallantin 04.20.20	Actually I take back my statement of Kojima's gameplay narrative being behind the rest of the industry, because both MGSV and Death Stranding did wonderful jobs of pairing gameplay and narrative meaningfully. And to add to my statement about good ideas and themes not equalling good writing, there is no better example than Death Stranding. A game with great ideas, great themes, and great ways of integrating them into a gaming context, only they're fucking butchered by some of the worst writing I have ever come across, in any medium. It's shameful how bad the writing in Death Stranding is.
solrage 04.21.20	I can only compare MGS2 to MGS1 in terms of gameplay. MGS2 actually made a lot of definite advances over MGS1 in AI; though I might agree that I think MGS2 lagged behind MGS1 in terms of much of its gameplay design. EG, I didn't find the boss fights nearly as engaging, and stealth is nearly impossible with no radar and a fixed camera, which makes finding those computer terminals mostly a chore; and many of the "special" sections (like the sniper one) just seemed like copies of MGS1. As for the metanarrative, that may have nothing to do with it being a "good game," but it absolutely has something to do with critiquing Kojima as a writer and MGS2 as a work of art. And, yes, I'd argue quite strongly it was quite the "original work of thematic genius." The metanarrative structure that Kojima executes is rare in art, period (off the top of my head I can only think of a few works any medium that have done something similar, and all of them are masterpieces: Hamlet, Vertigo, and Neon Genesis Evangelion come first to mind. That Kojima did that in a completely different medium is precisely the hallmarks of a genius. It also depends on exactly what you mean by parts of the gameplay serving the narrative. Probably the most obvious example of this is the section where the codec goes crazy and the game starts showing the "mission failed" (as "fission mailed") screen without you having died. That's a pretty brilliant subversion of gamer expectations of what is/should be happening and impacts both the actual gameplay as well as our perception of what the gameplay even is (that entire later section is starting to make us question whether what we're playing is real; it's probably no accident the level design starts taking on the appearance of the VR Missions).[1]
solrage 04.21.20	Yes, Kojima is reliant on cinematics, but I don't think this is either a negative or even independent from gameplay. The cinematics (and codec discussions) have a direct impact on how we perceive the gameplay, as I mentioned above, and Kojima brilliantly toys with our expectations throughout MGS2. Of course I'm "allowed" to think Kojima is a sub-par writer, I simply don't, and I think you're slightly loony for thinking so. I'd boldly declare that not only is MGS2 arguably the most artistically substantial video game ever, it's one of the most substantial works of art of this young century, period; and given that I have a deep and abiding passion for music, film, and literature (probably more so than video games), I don't make that claim lightly. You're right that "ideas and themes" alone don't make a good writer, but the way he worked them into MGS2 very much does. Again, I can only surmise that you're equating "campy" and "over-the-top" with being "dumb as fuck," and they are not synonymous. I would really appreciate some examples of what you consider "dumb" writing. You seem very brainwashed by Western standards of what constitutes good writing these days.[2]
Gallantin 04.21.20	Good writing is subjective, I obviously don't think there's such a thing as standard, and I frankly have no idea what the Western standard is. I mean, most people think Kojima is a good writer. I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority on this one. And no, I don't think anything he's written is particularly subversive or substantial. But we can disagree on that, I guess. We probably just have different tastes. I do equate camp with stupidity, but I don't even mean that as an insult. I love camp. It's genuine. It's honest. And in that sense, Kojima IS good at it. But yeah, I wouldn't call him a good writer in the sense of why I like good writing. He's a good game dev, he has cool ideas, and it's all great. But his actual writing, his plots, his characters, his stories, suffer from bloated dialogue, exposition, and overly-complex redundancies in what are otherwise extremely simple stories.
Gallantin 04.21.20	But for what it's worth, I don't think many games in general are well-written. There only two games ever that really blew me away with narrative. One is Dark Souls, the other is Disco Elysium. And i'm not big on film either, I don't think highly of many films. I mostly read. And I'm pretty picky there, too. I think it's hard to be a truly great writer. Kojima isn't anywhere close enough.
solrage 04.21.20	I don't know how you could possibly argue that MGS2 wasn't subversive. Even the idea of nixing Snake for Raiden was highly subversive, as was the fact that the game switches from mimicking MGS1 to VR Missions (which, in itself, is a gameplay design feeding into the themes). I can see disagreeing over substance/artistry, but not the level of subversion. Yeah, I just don't equate camp with stupidity. I think camp can be stupid, but I think just about any form, genre, style, etc. of writing, film, games, etc. can be stupid or smart; that just entirely depends on the people making them. I think if you genuinely enjoy camp, and think Kojima is good at it, then you should consider him a good writer of camp as opposed to thinking there's some transcendental notion of "good writing" that excludes any and all camp. EG, what you mention about his writing suffering from "bloated dialogue, exposition, complex redundancies, etc." are exactly what I meant by critiquing them based on western standards. I actually think there's a way to do all of those things well and I think Kojima meets those standards. Godard is a filmmaker whose writing is similarly all of those things (maybe not exposition, except on a thematic level) and I think he has films where he does them very well (Contempt, Pierrot le fou, Weekend) and where he does them very badly (Two or Three Things I Know About Her, La Chinoise, Le Gai savoir). Funny you mention Dark Souls being well written; I'm near the end of playing Dark Souls and I can't see that there's much "writing" at all, and what does exists seems vague, obscure, and rather cheesy. I read a lot myself (more poetry than novels, though), but I don't critique film or games or even musicals/operas by the literary standards as literature. Different mediums (and even genres) require different standards.
kalkwiese 04.21.20	This reminds me of Final Fantasy X, because people ciriticise it for being too vague and not answering all questions precisely. The thing is the developers wanted not to do that, it was a very different philosophy of story telling. Of course you can criticise it by our traditional standards and that's fine. But that's (at least) not the whole picture
Gallantin 04.21.20	'Funny you mention Dark Souls being well written; I'm near the end of playing Dark Souls and I can't see that there's much "writing" at all" Yeah no shit bc you think garbage like Kojima is a good writer, you cop out criticism of his poor writing with "it subverts western standards" despite his work being steeped entirely in western standards taking all inspiration from the entirety of western canon, then you keep flounting Godard's work (complete rubbish) as some kind of brilliant genius as though his work isn't also defining western canon. You're all over the place in this argument. You can't say "well of course you'd dislike it, you are stuck in western writing standards like uhhh dialogue not being bad, simple plot not being convoluted by excessive dialogue, and not wanting the entire plot told expositorily in every scene by every character. Of course if you think those things are bad you won't like it!" Like yikes not only is that not insulting to classic non-western literature and storytelling, it's just straight up not even an argument. You're literally just copping out. If you can't see the writing in Dark Souls, you're not looking hard enough. It's one of the first games to truly use the medium to its full effect for storytelling. Stop looking for cutscenes and dialogue and start looking at how well the world and its history is defined purely through its mechanics and gameplay. It takes several playthroughs and a lot of lookinh at all the details to understand the complexity of its storytelling through the medium of a game. "This reminds me of Final Fantasy X, because people ciriticise it for being too vague and not answering all questions precisely" Not even remotely the same argument.
solrage 04.21.20	I'm not "all over the place," you're just completely misunderstanding me and mixing up different arguments. Godard was mentioned as someone who utilizes those same tools as well (and apparently you consider one of the 2 or 3 most influential filmmakers of all time "rubbish;" ok, whatever) and those tools ARE very anti-western standards regardless of the fact that both Godard and Kojima are making use of other Western devices (often for the purposes of subversion). You don't seem to understand the distinction between subverting western standards while making use of them and simply making use of them. As one critic said about Breathless: "It was once a celebration of American gangster films and an attack on the very ideas of America, gangsters, and film." You've offered absolutely zero argument for anything. All you've done is literally vomit opinions as if they were indisputable facts and offer no standards, western or otherwise, upon which you're basing those opinions on. Like what counts as "good dialogue" and why doesn't Kojima's writing count? What counts as "convoluted and excessive?" Why is exposition bad? You've offered no examples, no reasoning, no standards, nada, and now you're getting pissed because I'm questioning you as if you were some authority on the matter. Despite not having finished Dark Souls I've actually watched stuff like VaatiVidya and much of what he talks about in terms of lore is wrapped up in the exposition as explained in the loading screens and through the same expository cutscenes and dialogue you criticize Kojima for. If you removed that, basically all you'd have is a big referential mythological dump, which Dark Souls kinda is anyway, which is fine because the emphasis is on the actual gameplay and the aesthetics of the world design, both of which are superb. I truly have to question how Dark Souls's "world and history" is defined "purely through its mechanics and gameplay" or even how such a thing is possible. Again, you present no actual arguments, no reasoning from facts, you just make a claim as if it's a truth that we should accept just because you said it.
Sinternet 04.21.20	snox getting decimated you love to see it
Gallantin 04.21.20	"and apparently you consider one of the 2 or 3 most influential filmmakers of all time "rubbish;" ok, whatever" Depending on who you consider the other two to be, I probably think they're rubbish too. I'm not big on film as a medium. "and those tools ARE very anti-western standards regardless of the fact that both Godard and Kojima are making use of other Western devices (often for the purposes of subversion)" Few things: subversion does not equal quality. Subversion is also fleeting. What was fleeting in 2001 is not subversive anymore. What was subversive 60 years ago is not subversive anymore. Godard's films may have been subversive and new 60 years ago, but those techniques now? They ARE western standard. Kojima doesn't subvert western standards, he tries to emulate western standards (often poorly). "You've offered absolutely zero argument for anything. All you've done is literally vomit opinions as if they were indisputable facts" Couple things: this is a discussion of opinions. I've not posted anything under the guise of a fact, and neither have you. As for me offering zero argument: yea, neither have you. You're saying that Godard and Kojima doing things differently and doing them ingeniously, but you haven't listed examples to refute or argue against. I mean you and I clearly disagree on what camp is, so there's no point continuing that. I think Kojima is good at camp because he's bad. Camp, to me, is to put out something of honest effort and passion that is clearly lacking artful skill or control. I don't think Kojima is a good writer, which is exactly why he's good at camp. If he were trying to write good camp, it would be bad camp, because camp isn't deliberate. Instead, with MGS2 for example, he was trying to write a serious post-modernist story, and did a poor job, leading to a very good campy post-modernist work. "Like what counts as "good dialogue" and why doesn't Kojima's writing count?" For me, good dialogue is realistic, simplistic, and brief. Your opinion may differ. Kojima's characters often talk in large sweeping monologues about metaphorical subjects pertaining to the game's larger themes. To me, this is everything I dislike about good dialogue. It's funny and cute in a campy way, but I cannot take it seriously. Snake's speech and the end of MGS2 is a good example of this. It's just Kojima talking to the camera saying "hey guys ya get it? Do you get it?" It's ridiculous.
Gallantin 04.21.20	"Why is exposition bad?" Exposition as a concept isn't bad. Kojima's use of it is bad. And what examples do you want? 90% of the script in all his games is expository. I don't have a single "standard" for most aspects of writing that I like, because it's usually all context sensitive. But i can unequivocally say that all dialogue being expository bile about the plot events and themes goes against whatever standards i may have. "I'm questioning you as if you were some authority on the matter" Bah? I just think you're silly for considering Kojima a genius. I think you're giving gropey-titman far too much credit. As for the dark souls stuff, lol yea please dont depend om Vaati Vidya for your understanding of the story. I don't have time yo explain it but i dont really care, you don't need to agree with me about why I love Dark Souls. I never said it was definitively rhe best video game story ever, i said it was one of the only ones that blew me away narratively. I don't expect you to feel the same way, why would I?
Gallantin 04.21.20	"the exposition as explained in the loading screens and through the same expository cutscenes and dialogue you criticize Kojima for" Tho this is just wrong. Item descriptions in Dark Souls provide context for how the story is told environmentally, they arent the story themselves. Anyway whole different kettle.of fish. They do exposition well, actually. Kojima does it poorly Edit: thinking about this has actually helped me understand what I like and dislike about certain types of exposition. And it's simple. I like exposition that gives context to a narrative, like Dark Souls. Its items and exposition are all sought out by players wishing to engage and seek that context. Kojima's exposition is all text. It doesn't give context to a greater narrative, it is just plain text. And yeah, sue me, I think that's bad.
LunaticSoul 04.21.20	Do people actually think DS has a plot? lol Anyway, spot on reviews, I thini MGSV has hands down one of the most addicting gameplays ever, and despite its flaws chapter two has a lot of underlying motives that are incredibly meta MGSII is a fucking masterpiece and the ending, considering it was written 18 years ago, is amazing. Also the gameplay was cool and flashy, wtf you talking about
Gallantin 04.21.20	Dark Souls has a pretty simple plot that's explained very straightforwardly to you. It's the rest of the story and lore that isn't so simply addressed.
kalkwiese 04.21.20	I'M STIIILL IN A DREEEAAAM SNAKE EEEATEEER!
Gallantin 04.21.20	I GIVE MY LIIIIIIFE NOT FOR HONOUR BUT FOR YOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUU unironically the best song ever made
solrage 04.22.20	Other two most influential filmmakers would probably be DW Griffith and then either Hitchcock or Welles. I’d actually put Godard #2, because the same way Griffith established the fundamental language of cinema, Godard blew it apart, and film/TV has been irrevocably influenced by his technical innovations ever since. Hitch and Welles, by comparison, were more synthesizers who consolidated all of the innovations of the silent era. It’s fine to say subversion doesn’t equal quality and is historically contextual, but the point I was making was that you can’t critique an artist by the rules of one game when they’re playing a different one. I’ve also got news for you; plenty of Godard’s films STILL seem radical, and for how many of his innovations/subversions were integrated into the mainstream, just as many were not; the essay-film, the disjunction between visuals and sound, the random stop-start of non-diegetic sound/music, collage styles, etc.. Weekend and Pierrot le fou are as fresh today as in the late 60s, and this isn’t even getting into his work from the 70s onward, which was even more radical. I simply disagree Kojima is emulating Western standards. I think he, much like Kurosawa, takes certain genres and techniques from the West to use for his own purposes. So the way Kurosawa took a lot of Ford’s visual techniques and genres while introducing very Japanese, Noh-inspired acting is similar to the way Kojima takes a very plot-centric and typically realism-based genre, but uses it to lead the audience into thematic explorations and melodrama/camp is very much against western standards. [1]
solrage 04.22.20	Actually, I very much DID list examples of Kojima doing things differently, especially what I said about the subversion of player expectations for the purpose of thematic and metafictional exploration. I listed above many ways in which Godard “did things differently” and could probably list a dozen others if you wanted me to. Yes, we very much seem to disagree on camp. I think there’s two kinds of camp, and you’re only focusing on the “unintentionally bad” kind of camp that accounts for something like The Room, but not camp that is intentionally melodramatic and OTT, which describes stuff like Raimi’s Evil Dead, the satirical films of Paul Verhoeven, the films of Andrej Zulawski and Douglas Sirk and, yes, Kojima’s games. There’s also no definite correlation between camp and “lacking artful skill or control.” Sirk’s films are very (intentionally) camp, but are also almost universally recognized as some of the most beautiful, technically masterful films ever made. You’re also basically confirming what I said; for you good dialogue is realistic, simplistic, and brief, which is not the mode Kojima is working in. Neither was Shakespeare, so I guess that means Shakespeare (to you) is a bad writer. Same thing about exposition; a good chunk of Hamlet is Hamlet babbling about the play’s themes. Hell, Tolstoy wrote entire chapters in War & Peace discussing the novel’s themes. So apparently both Shakespeare and Tolstoy go into the dust bin for you. Still, I’d be interested to hear what you like about Dark Souls narratively. It seems to me that if you’re going to praise that kind of subtle, minimalist narrative you’d be more impressed by something like Shadow of the Colossus, which contains even less exposition than Dark Souls and whose world is more original. [2]
Gallantin 04.22.20	Shakespeare sucks too, for sure. And yeah, War and Peace is a terrible novel. I know what Kojima is trying to do, and it's bad. But we disagree on that. You seem to like the complete opposite spectrum of writing than what I like. And that's fine. Shadow of the Colossus is alright. Not quite the same as what I like about Dark Souls, but still good. I don't think Dark Souls is at all a minimalist narrative. It's overflowing with narrative detail, from how enemies and items are placed in the world to how the world is designed, to the positions and placements of characters, how bosses use their attacks and movements to convey backstory, to how individual weapons and items actually convey history and lore through their visuals, to what items you receive from certain characters and how that dictates their thoughts and feelings. It's all overflowing with detail that is only kinda touched on in other games.
solrage 04.22.20	And Shakespeare and Tolstoy are probably my two favorite authors along with John Milton and William Blake, so, yeah, we just have completely different standards for good writing. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on Dark Souls too. I just really can't connect to anything you're saying to my experience of the game. I guess if you really like the game and care enough to dig into all the details then maybe you can justify all that, but then I'm not sure how you couldn't say the same of most games, especially most RPGs that often have long, elaborate backstories and lore related to most of its world. Any thoughts on Silent Hill? That's another game I think does the whole "narrative through environmental detail" thing extremely well.
Gallantin 04.22.20	Even things like which poses characters will teach you in Dark Souls conveys story information. Then there's things like how characters progress through the world, what types of clothes they're wearing and so forth. You could write a whole essay discussing why Griggs of Vinheim wears a very specific set of sorcerer's robes. It's brilliant.
Gallantin 04.22.20	I've never played Silent Hill, but the world never appealed to me aesthetically. But if I were to play the first three games I might come around on it, but unfortunately I've never had a good chance to play them. One day I hope to play a good port of them. My favourite authors are William Faulkner, William H. Gass, Toni Morrison, and Cormac McCarthy. We're definitely on opposing ends of the spectrum.
solrage 04.22.20	I should also mention that it's not that I dislike realism, brevity, simplicity, etc. I mean, I also really like Hemingway, Frost, and Dickinson, who I think fit into those categories (on some level). I just think both extremes can be done well or poorly, and are often done well and poorly by the same authors depending on the work. I guess my tastes probably do run more towards the visionary, long, and complex somewhat, but I can definitely appreciate the opposite when it's done well.
Gallantin 04.22.20	Anyway sorry if I seemed insulting or whatever. I just...I've seen enough of Kojima's true motivations that I cannot take him seriously as a writer. He's a man obsessed with rape imagery and objectification of women in his work, he fills his work with poop jokes, and when he takes his writing completely seriously without any ridiculous elements, his writing is as dull and lifeless as the worst books I've ever read. He thrives on writing ridiculous stuff and that's what I enjoy about MGS. I will never be able to take them seriously, because I don't believe he intentionally wrote anything poignant. He stumbled into it. Knowing everything I do about the man, I do not trust that he has even a mild grasp on understand how to write well. Any poignant thematic brilliance you can take from his work is all accidental. And that's alright. I don't much care for authorial intent anyway. I'm very much a death of the author type.
solrage 04.22.20	I'm sure you could write a whole essay on lots of details in different works of fiction. I mean, I literally DID write an essay on the themes explored in MGS2. It seems the impetus is more the issue than whether the works themselves are worthy of such a thing. For Silent Hill I only played the first game. The second and third came out around the time I stopped gaming. I still remember SH being the most terrifying experience I ever had with fiction back when I first played it, though I'm guessing the visuals are dated enough now that it wouldn't have that same effect. It was also the first game that provoked me to seek out online analyses as to what the hell was going on as it sure as hell wasn't explained in game, though it references a lot of its influences in terms of what's going on like Twin Peaks and Jacob's Ladder. I love Faulkner myself and really like McCarthy, though I'm not sure I'd put either into the "simple" category. Both could get pretty baroque, stylistically. Haven't read Gass or Morrison but, like I said, I'm more of a poetry guy anyway.
Gallantin 04.22.20	People think Faulkner and McCarthy are more complex than they really are. They can have some fluffy prose, but their work is stylised to be pretty bare and forthcoming with strong characters and effective dialogue that doesn't bog itself down with metaphor or convoluted plot elements. And that's what I like. McCarthy writes like he's commentating on what is happening and doesn't get too lost in trying to dress it up.
Gallantin 04.22.20	When it comes to film, all I mostly watch is 80s b-horror and cheesy garbage. I do love Evil Dead but I don't know if I'd classify it as camp. Although some make the distinction that camp is deliberate, whilst kitsch is indeliberate. In which case I'd say Kojima is kitsch and Evil Dead is camp. But that's just semantics.
solrage 04.22.20	I don't judge works of art based on the artists. By all accounts, Richard Wagner was a pretty terrible human beings who would've probably felt right at home with the Nazis, but he was also a visionary musical genius who profoundly changed the course of music history. Maybe there's a bit of "Kojima's rape fantasies" in the MGS games, but most of the times the player is actually chastised for engaging in them. As for the rest, we simply have to agree to disagree, but I love art that actively engages in its themes and philosophy, especially when it can use the medium itself as a means of engaging the audience in those themes. To me, that's about the epitome of what narrative art can achieve, where the medium is inextricably intertwined with the message, that marriage of creativity and thought (and, hopefully, emotions as well). I also can't believe that any "poignant thematic brilliance" is MGS2 is there by accident, especially when the game discusses these themes explicitly. They were very clearly on Kojima's mind at the time.
solrage 04.22.20	I'd still say that Faulkner's and McCarthy's "fluffy prose" disqualifies them from the "simple" category. Hemingway they aren't. Though point taken about other elements being "bare and forthcoming with strong characters" and whatnot. Yeah, I think the camp/kitsch distinction is a good one. I'd definitely put Kojima into the camp category rather than kitsch.
Gallantin 04.22.20	I suppose it's up to the reader. I don't think they're particularly complex writers, but of course many disagree and I probably would have disagreed myself a decade ago. But I just like their style. It's very deliberate without seeming overdone. Cuts to the bone.
solrage 04.22.20	Complexity is relative I guess. Compared to Joyce they're not complex, but compared to Joyce almost no writers are complex. On my patented complex-o-meter I'd probably put them below Stevens and James and above Hemingway and Fitzgerald, maybe around where Eliot and Nabokov reside.
Gallantin 04.22.20	Joyce is good. Though maybe it's not a surprise that I like Dubliners over his later work.
solrage 04.22.20	How's this for simplicity, one of the many poems I've actually bothered to commit to memory: “Hope” is the thing with feathers - That perches in the soul - And sings the tune without the words - And never stops - at all - And sweetest - in the Gale - is heard - And sore must be the storm - That could abash the little Bird That kept so many warm - I’ve heard it in the chillest land - And on the strangest Sea - Yet - never - in Extremity, It asked a crumb - of me.
solrage 04.22.20	Joyce is an author I admire more than love, though I haven't read Dubliners yet. Finnegans Wake strikes me as the ultimate linguistic playground. It's fun to just pick that one up and read it out-loud at random, and preferably in a slightly drunken stupor.
Gallantin 04.22.20	I'm not big on poetry, honestly. I used to like it a lot when I was a teenager but these days I don't quite understand the appeal. Maybe that'll change. I used to think short stories were a waste of time, but now some short stories are my favourite pieces of fiction ever. I even wrote one myself recently. I hope to write some more.
solrage 04.22.20	What I like about poetry is how the experience of language is turned into an aesthetic dimension itself with how sounds and rhythm play off each other. I also like how poetry invites abstraction and direct engagement with themes, idea, metaphor, allegory, etc. without always needing the context of characters and narrative, yet is still able to accommodate characters and narrative if the poet chooses. I mean, if you can read Keats's To Autumn, or Stevens's Sunday Morning, and not be enraptured by the beauty of the language and imagery, then maybe poetry isn't for you.
Gallantin 04.22.20	Those are all fair reasons to love it, but aren't the reasons I love language these days. I could see myself coming back around to it one day though.
Sinternet 04.22.20	snox going full tard mode and saying shakespeare sucks
Gallantin 04.22.20	Not a fan
evilford 05.30.20	Snox's series ranking is dead on 5=3>4>1>2
evilford 05.30.20	Also the end, best boss battle ever made
Gallantin 05.30.20	Agreed