treeqt.
06.24.13 | i agree with 0 of these |
treeqt.
06.24.13 | who's edgy now |
robertsona
06.24.13 | definitely agree with hinrich |
DikkoZinner
06.24.13 | Rik Smits |
treeqt.
06.24.13 | kirk & mario are 1 & 2 |
raggedragamuffin
06.24.13 | rock chalk hawks suck |
MasBarHigeuoris21
06.24.13 | Would call this a troll list if it wasn't made by academy |
nononsense
06.24.13 | Adam Morrison is #1 |
GuanoBumbershoot
06.24.13 | Captain Kirk! |
theacademy
06.24.13 | morrison is like #8 |
DominionMM1
06.24.13 | super nintendo chalmers |
treeqt.
06.24.13 | is john wall elite? |
BigHans
06.24.13 | Jack Sikma
Mark Aguirre
Terry Cummings
Alex English
Mugsy Bogues
The definitive list |
Satellite
06.24.13 | god shammgod |
BigHans
06.24.13 | John Spider Sally amirite Satty? |
danielcardoso
06.24.13 | Mario Chalmers and Nick Collison? They're average but they're not the best!
Finally some love for Kirk Hinrich! Kirk kicks ass! Go Bulls! |
SiameseInfinity
06.24.13 | No Scalabrine? |
GuanoBumbershoot
06.24.13 | you're damn right go bulls! |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | I'm pretty sure the various iterations of Joakim Noah's hair are the 5 best players of all time, unless something has changed |
BigHans
06.24.13 | Randy Brown
Bill Wennington
Will Perdue
Toni Kukoc
amirite Blake? |
NationalRadio
06.24.13 | Birdman should be 5 |
DikkoZinner
06.24.13 | Kelly Tripucka |
BallsToTheWall
06.24.13 | taken already
so andrei kirilenko
|
BigHans
06.24.13 | Rony Seikaly |
Austintatious
06.24.13 | wtf is the point of this? you really just wanted/needed some attention didn't ya? |
BigHans
06.24.13 | Just realized about 1% of the users will get my 80s NBA references |
Austintatious
06.24.13 | I am in my 30s and have loved the NBA my entire life. I guess I missed the point... |
TheSpirit
06.24.13 | "wtf is the point of this? you really just wanted/needed some attention didn't ya?"
Austintatious
Oh, the irony
|
BigHans
06.24.13 | its acad, there rarely is a point |
GuanoBumbershoot
06.24.13 | I got the reference BigHans, don't worry dude. |
Donchivo
06.24.13 | Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
LeBron James
John Stockton |
BigHans
06.24.13 | The real list:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Kareem |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | If this were NBA Live '08 then 3 is 1. That guy is randomly un-fucking-stoppable. It's like they programmed Derrick Rose in, but forgot he had to go to college for a year, so gave all his attributes to Hinrich. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Hans: I think it's time to start considering that LBJ is Top 5. As much as I love Bird, I think maybe James replaces him on the list. |
theacademy
06.24.13 | sweet good users showin up hard
also, for those interested
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/list.php?listid=116290
|
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "Randy Brown
Bill Wennington
Will Perdue
Toni Kukoc
amirite Blake?"
oh yeah, you're only missing Craig Hodges and Steve Kerr
for what it's worth I also agree with Hans' top 5, probably in the same order too. the next 5 for me would include Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Wilt Chamberlain and Kobe Bryant. just missing out would be Hakeem, LeBron, Havlicek, The Logo and Dr. J |
SiameseInfinity
06.24.13 | No one's mentioned good ol' Kwame either. |
theacademy
06.24.13 | I'd have Chamberlain in my real top 5 |
Austintatious
06.24.13 | "Oh, the irony" - TheSpirit
Must of missed this one too. |
Austintatious
06.24.13 | For my money, I am going with Jordan, Wilt, Hakeem, Magic, Lebron |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | in a game where there are only 5 players on the court at a time, your career needs to be measured in championships. at least in terms of top 5 or top 10 status. I think you need multiple 'ships to be in the top 5, and at least one to be in the top 10. That's why players like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing etc aren't in the top 10 for me. I also think it's important to be the best (or a very close 2nd) player on the championship team. Hence why David Robinson isn't in the top 10. |
porch
06.24.13 | "oh the ironing" - polyethylene in the seer thread
nice brackets acad |
BallsToTheWall
06.24.13 | Has nobody mentioned Muggsy Bogues? Really, that shit is redonk |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | "Has nobody mentioned Muggsy Bogues? Really, that shit is redonk"
Hans did. |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @inveigh i go by mvps. finals mvps and regular season mvps. i think that is a better measuring stick then championships then championships. |
BigTuna
06.24.13 | wilt was a dick and stat-lover - top 10, sure, but not top 5
I think you can't really measure a player's career by championships alone, though. I agree that you need a few ships to be in the top 5 or 10, but I fucking hate people who say shit like "MJ has 6 rings, end of story." No it's not the end of the story, there's a lot more to consider. Plus Russell has 11 rings so if we're gonna make that argument, then... |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @bigtuna thats why i go by mvps instead of championships. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | "wilt was a dick and stat-lover - top 10, sure, but not top 5"
Have you ever seen him play?
" i go by mvps. finals mvps and regular season mvps."
That's not a bad parameter. Combined MVP awards with atleast one of each kind should be a good indicator of a player's value. |
BigTuna
06.24.13 | regular season mvps can be a joke |
ShadowRemains
06.24.13 | jordan
chamberlain
kareem
magic
bird/kobe/the mailman |
BigTuna
06.24.13 | @Sitar
Have you ever seen him play? |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | I asked you first. |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @bigtuna that's true, but i still think it's better than just rings. rings are meaningless if you werent the leader of the team in my opinion. you dont win the mvp unless you had a stellar regular season. |
BigTuna
06.24.13 | @vada what about Steve Nash, someone who's won 2 mvps but never a championship? do mvps trump championships or are you thinking it's a combination of the both?
@Sitar on video, yes, but what did you mean by that question?
|
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "@inveigh i go by mvps. finals mvps and regular season mvps. i think that is a better measuring stick then championships then championships."
Finals MVPs sure, but regular season MVPs don't mean as much. definitely include them in the analysis, but I mean Steve Nash has more MVPs than Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Barkley, Olajuwon, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, etc and no way in hell is he a better player than any of those guys
|
BigTuna
06.24.13 | see, me and Veigh are on the same page ;) |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | better all-time player, Scottie Pippen with 6 championships and no MVPs, or Dirk Nowitzki with one MVP and one championship? I go Scottie |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | is Derrick Rose a better all-time point guard than Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, Bob Cousy and Jason Kidd? if you go by MVPs he is
|
Inveigh
06.24.13 | haha yup Tuna |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @bigtuna they trump championships if you werent a big part of the team when you won your chapionships. for example, mario chalmers' ring doesnt count as much as lebron's regular season mvp. finals mvps count for quite a bitmore than regular season ones though. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | nah the best player of all time is Raefer Sweet Lou Alston |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Tuna
So you've watched whole games/seasons of him play? I ask because I'm interested in how you arrived at the conclusion that "Wilt was a dick and a stat-lover". If you arrived at that conclusion through personal experience, or through the kind of nuanced statistical analysis provided by a guy like John Hollinger then fair enough. If you arrived at the conclusion through the usual sort of half-baked talking head narrative that plagues sports, then your opinion is bullshit. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "finals mvps count for quite a bitmore than regular season ones though."
agree with that, although might have had to make an exception if Danny Green walked away with it this year lol |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @inveigh i dont go by mvp's alone, im just saying that a lot of the time they count for more than a ring does simply because of the fact that a ring can be meaningless if you arent a big part of the reason the team won the ring. obviously there are other things to consider. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | well yeah I agree with that, but I thought that was obvious. clearly Robert Horry and his 7 rings isn't in the "best players of all time" discussion. Or Shane Battier for that matter either. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | Guys, guys, GUYS!
Bo Outlaw. BOOM! |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @inveigh it really isnt all that obvious to some people lol. people use the argument that kobe has 5 rings and lebron has 2 to say that kobe is better, when kobe was onle the mvp for 2 of those rings. lebron only needs one more finals mvp to surpass kobe imo. |
BigTuna
06.24.13 | @Sitar and what exactly are you basing yours on?
I probably shouldn't have been so flippant, but I've read Wilt and Second Wind and Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball and from those Wilt seems like a bit of a prick and stat-packer. Simmons is obviously biased to Russell, but read ch. 2 of his book to see where I'm coming from |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | LeBron is quickly gaining on Kobe, but I still wouldn't rank him ahead of Kobe just yet. One more championship/Finals MVP and I think he's top 5 material and would push Kobe out of it. |
EaglesBecomeVultures
06.24.13 | Nick Collison! |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | for me he is a better player simply because his skill set is far more diverse, he is more athletic, has higher basketball iq, more mvps, and the same number of finals mvps. he will be clearly better if he wins one more finals mvp though. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | idk, Kobe in his prime was a far better scorer than LeBron, and an equal defender. His passing and ball handling skills are very close as well, though he isn't quite as willing of a distributor as LeBron. el BJ is a much more elite rebounder though. |
BigTuna
06.24.13 | Darko
done |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | idk about an equal defender man. lebron has shut down or slowed down the likes of tony parker, david west, and derrick rose. he is probably the best on ball defender in the league, and he can guard players at almost every position (centers like hibbert are simply too big lol) |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | and lebron's ourt vision is miles ahead of kobe's. he is a much better passer. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Tuna
Simmons was 3-4 years old when Wilt retired so I doubt he's seen Wilt play either. I'm only cautioning about making judgments about a player you've never seen play because the narrative is always shaped by the winners. Kobe Bryant is one of the most selfish players of his generation, yet he's a winner so selfish = good. Wilt had the misfortune of constantly playing against the Celtics and their HOF stacked team that was geared specifically to stop him at any cost, much like the Pistons taking out Jordan every year.
By all accounts Wilt was every bit the game-defining force in his prime that Jordan was and Lebron is, the only difference is he never turned his statistical dominance into championships, because he was constantly eliminated by another great player and a much better team. Basketball is still a TEAM sport and championships are won by the better team, not by the best player. Ignoring a player because he was "a dick and a stat-chaser" when you have very little basis to determine how these attributes affected his worth as a basketball player is foolhardy. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "Basketball is still a TEAM sport and championships are won by the better team, not by the best player. "
this is true, but a single player affects the outcome of a basketball game far more than it does in any single other team sport, which is why basketball players are measured by championships more than baseball or football players.
|
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "idk about an equal defender man. lebron has shut down or slowed down the likes of tony parker, david west, and derrick rose. he is probably the best on ball defender in the league, and he can guard players at almost every position (centers like hibbert are simply too big lol)"
did you see Kobe defend in his prime? he could shut down the likes of any of those players too. Kobe was also nearly as good of a passer as LeBron, just not nearly as willing. |
toxin.
06.24.13 | lebron is not the best ball defender in the league, he's an excellent helpside defender and a pretty good ball defender, particularly on point guards (Parker and Rose come to mind). good SF's have consistently done well against lebron though (durant in the 2012 finals, paul pierce pretty much all the time, paul george, etc)
not to take away from his game at all, dude's a very good defender when he's not whining about calls and not hustling back, but he's only ever a shutdown defender against PG's (where he has the speed to keep up and the height to really bother them) |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | lebron completely shut down paul george in game 7 of the finals, and he shut down pierce in game 6 of the celtics series last year. the only reason paul george had success against the heat is because wade and his gimpy knees was guarding him most of the time. and kevin durant is the best scorer in the nba. absolutely no one can shut him down so that's a pretty bad example. and kobe bryant could not guard david west lol he is way too little. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | Kobe is about 6'6"-6'7", he might not be able to bang with him for an entire game but he could guard him on a possession basis as needed, at least he could have in 2002-2006 (i.e. his prime)
also Kobe's not a bitch |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | lol sorry about that last part, couldn't resist ripping on el BJ one more time because I hate him |
DrMaximus
06.24.13 | Where's Shaq? |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | "this is true, but a single player affects the outcome of a basketball game far more than it does in any single other team sport, which is why basketball players are measured by championships more than baseball or football players."
Yes, but it's still absurd to expect the "best player" to singlehandedly defeat the "best team" especially over the course of a playoff series. Except in very rare exceptions, which almost never happen in the Conf or NBA Finals, does a great player defeat a great team. Lebron struggled against the Celts until he got a better team. Kobe struggled when he didn't have a dominant big man (Gasol deserved Finals MVP in '09). It pisses me off when people attribute things like the Heat's loss to the Mavs in '11 to "Lebron isn't clutch or great enough" rather than recognizing that the Mavs team outplayed the Heat AS A TEAM. |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @inveigh he doesnt have enough meat on his bones to frustrate west though. he could just post him up every time. kobe's only defensive skill is on ball perimeter defense. he is not a very good off ball defender. i put lebron over him on defense. |
SeaAnemone
06.24.13 | Dylan
Dylan
Dylan
Dylan,
and Dylan
and Lebron |
toxin.
06.24.13 | so your argument is that because pierce had one bad game, and george had one bad game (due to foul trouble by the way), lebron shut them down the entire series? and KD might be the best scorer in the league, but you'd think the best on-the-ball defender in the league would at least drop KD's FG% right? except that it rose.
this is pointless, it's like arguing with myself when i was 14 except that instead of being a kobe fan you're a lebron fan.
|
BigHans
06.24.13 | Lebron isnt top 5 all-time yet. Its extremely likely he will be by the time he's done, but not yet.
Nobody will ever take the GOAT from Jordan. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | ""Lebron isn't clutch or great enough" rather than recognizing that the Mavs team outplayed the Heat AS A TEAM."
if LeBron played that series like he's capable of, they wouldn't have lost. The Heat are and were a better TEAM than that Mavericks team. Unfortunately for them, in that series their best player wasn't better than the best player on the Mavs.
if you're honestly telling me that a 33 year old Dirk Nowitzki, a 30 year old Jason Terry, a 65 year old Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler were the better team than LBJ, Wade, Bosh, Haslem, Chalmers and Mike Miller then I'm not sure we're talking about the same game |
SeaAnemone
06.24.13 | "Lebron the goddam whippersnapper, always on my lawn, will never be better than MJ. Where was he when I was in 'Nam, huh? Riddle me that, youngsters."
- BigHans 6/24/13 |
toxin.
06.24.13 | Gasol did not deserve Finals MVP in '09, you might mean '10 but that's still bullshit. In a defensive series, I'll take an extra 10 points per game, even at a cost of 3% in TS% (which I'll grant you is pretty big). Rebounding was a wash (11.5 for big man Gasol, 8.0 for Kobe the guard), assisting was a wash (pau had almost as high an APG as kobe, but in the triangle offense that's kind of moot), and defense was in favor of kobe (pau shut down KG on the boards but his actual D was solid, kobe's roaming on rondo was fantastic). |
BigTuna
06.24.13 | @Sitar
still, read the chapter and those books |
BigHans
06.24.13 | Nah Sea MJ is just the greatest end of debate |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | Sea is just too young to have ever seen MJ play, anyone who witnessed it knows it's no contest |
BigHans
06.24.13 | Its really not |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Inveigh
Did you even watch the finals or did you just read the box score the next day? The Mavs 4th quarters were spotless. Defensive rotations were perfect. There was not a single missed defensive assignment, which means there were no open shots for anyone. At the other end of the floor the Heat struggled to defend the inside because they had no one who could guard Dirk, and for every double team the Heat paid. The Mavs AS A TEAM executed their game-plan flawlessly while the Heat did not.
You guys need to stop thinking of basketball as a game of one-on-one with eight bystanders. |
BigHans
06.24.13 | My memory isnt that great anymore but what I recall from that Heat Mavs series was Lebron looking like he couldn't wait to pass the ball. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | lol dude I watched every minute of that Finals, as I have with most NBA Finals over the last 17-18 years
if LeBron played those 4th quarters like he's played a good portion of the 4th quarters since then, the Heat would've won. He can't be stopped when he doesn't want to be stopped, unfortunately he scored about 8 points over three games in those 4th quarters (which is where most NBA playoff games are won). He wasn't even looking to make plays. He let an old, washed up Shawn Marion shut him down.
|
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @toxin when did i say he shut them down for an entire series? lebron didnt even guard paul george very much in most of that series except for game7. most of the time it was wade. and paul george was poor for that entire game. he may have been in foul trouble, but foul trouble doesnt cause someone to score 7 points lol that is a ridiculous number. and three of them were scored against mario chalmers. and it was kd in the finals for crying out loud lol. i have never seen anyone slow down that guy. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | "He let an old, washed up Shawn Marion shut him down."
Facepalm. That's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. Let me say it again so that it's clear: basketball is not one-on-one with eight bystanders. Maybe you've watched every minute of the Finals, but frankly, it sure doesn't seem like you really understood any of it. |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @sitar agreed. they played so much zone in that series |
toxin.
06.24.13 | jesus christ, you've never seen someone slow KD down? well okay it's a good thing lebron apparently did the exact opposite to KD, he caused KD to play better than usual! fantastic defense! by the way i saw someone slow KD down, his name was ron artest.
jesus christ you are one apologetic motherfucker. i love watching lebron play like in game 7 of these finals as much as anyone else, but it's like pointing out that he's not the best at any thing will get his fangirls up with pitchforks |
amemento
06.24.13 | where is lance franklin? |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | lol i only say he is the best because i honestly cant think of anyone who is better. and my argument was that kd played better because he was playing in the FINALS. you dont think he is going to raise his game in the most important series of his life? |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @toxin instead of knocking lebron, why dont you name a guy right now who is a better on ball defender than him. im not
fanboying im just an argumentative person lol. why dont we just say he is one of the best and end this now |
dsroka005
06.24.13 | lance bass |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "That's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. Let me say it again so that it's clear: basketball is not one-on-one with eight bystanders. Maybe you've watched every minute of the Finals, but frankly, it sure doesn't seem like you really understood any of it."
so what you're saying is that LeBron played his absolute best in that series and the Mavs just happened to be better. just making sure we're clear here. you're saying LeBron was at his best in that series. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Toxin:
My bad, I meant 2010. And points are easy to come by when you're a guard who touches the ball on every possession compared to a big man who doesn't. If the 12-8 rebs is a wash then the 30-20 scoring is also a wash. Maybe the only way to judge is PER. |
toxin.
06.24.13 | no i don't think he's going to elevate his game, that's standard bullshit. i don't think lebron's ever shot upwards of 50% in the finals, his first apperance where he should have elevated his game he went 22ppg and 6 TO/game on like 38% shooting. in kobe's first, he averaged 15.6 ppg on 36% shooting, luckily for him shaq was unstoppable. kobe likewise has never shot upwards of 50% in the finals.
you're up against better competition, of course you won't play as well. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | also if you think I'm saying that basketball is a one-on-one sport, then you're an idiot. I said individual players affect basketball MORE than they do any other sport, which isn't really a contest. not sure why you would argue with that, unless again, you're an idiot. |
Cygnatti
06.24.13 | "I said individual players affect basketball MORE than they do any other sport"
tennis. ^_^
what do I win? |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | lol well my original quote said "any other team sport" |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @toxin those really arent good examples but ok. plenty of players have elevated their game in the finals. didnt jordant average like 40 ppg in one finals series? and dwade averaged like 30 something in another one. lebron didn't play well in his finals series because they packed the paint and lebron was not a good jump shooter back then. i was way too young to remember that series with kobe so i wont say anything about that. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Inveigh:
The question is not "if Lebron played his best and put up 30-10-10 would the Heat have won?" The question is, "did the Mavs AS A TEAM make damn well sure that Lebron didn't put up 30-10-10?" and the answer is a resounding "YES! GODDAMMIT!" |
toxin.
06.24.13 | @Sitar, are you kidding me? If you told Kobe to score 18.6 PPG he'd have shot 55% from the field. And if you told Pau to score 28.6 he'd have shot 40%. It's simple math, big men have better FG% not just because they're close to the basket but because if they don't have good position (i.e. a good shot) there's not much they can do so they pass it out usually. They can take a bad fadeaway (25% accuracy probably) or pass it out. With a guard, Kobe can take a double teamed jumper that he might only make 35% of the time (still a better option that that bad fadeaway!) with the added bonus that by virtue of the shooter NOT being a big man, chances of an offensive rebound are much higher (because he's got Pau and Bynum and LO to rebound for him). If Pau shoots a forced shot, trying to get to 29 ppg, then it's much worse overall for the team because not only is he less likely to make it, he's got fewer big men to rebound it. (There's a Grantland article on "Kobe assists" you might want to read that reinforces this point.)
And if you think Pau really had a lot of opportunities for good shots where Kobe ballhogged it away, you're underestimating how superb KG's defense was.
PER is a bogus stat BTW, its defensive calculations are hilariously stupid. Assuming everything is a wash, Kobe was still much more valuable in terms of creating offense (even though Pau was arguably the best big man playmaker in the league then) and on defense (where his roaming was crucial). You can make a case that Pau played as well as Kobe---and I would agree 100%, Pau was spectacular in 2010... a top-10 player and elite for sure---but in terms of value it wasn't particularly close. |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @sitar i think you make a fair point, but lebron could have played better in that series, just like he could have in some of the games against the spurs. he was afraid to shoot and didnt want the ball for most of that series, especially in the fourth quarter. |
toxin.
06.24.13 | @dath
and? you think it's because wade/jordan suddenly decided "you know in the ECF i was only giving it a 100%, now i should give 110% !!!" it's all about matchups, and what i'm telling you is KD played better than he did against the league on average while matched up against lebron. it doesn't matter if part of it is elevating his game, on some level you can't expect the best wing defender to allow a player to play better than he did on average, "game elevation" or not |
GuanoBumbershoot
06.24.13 | "better all-time player, Scottie Pippen with 6 championships and no MVPs, or Dirk Nowitzki with one MVP and one championship? I go Scottie"
Pippen wouldn't have 6 championships without Jordan by his side. Pippen was a great player, don't get me wrong, but I don't know if you can say he's a better player than Dirk. I guess it's easy if championships is your only marker, but Dirk singlehandedly carried the Mavs past Lebron, Wade, Bosh and co. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | my point is that LeBron could have beaten that team and their zone defense if he had tried, but he didn't. anyone who watched the games and not just the box scores could have seen that (which is why most basketball experts and analysts agree with that assertion).
you originally said: "it's still absurd to expect the "best player" to singlehandedly defeat the "best team" especially over the course of a playoff series. Except in very rare exceptions, which almost never happen in the Conf or NBA Finals, does a great player defeat a great team."
while obviously one great player doesn't make a team great, I'd say that most of the time in the NBA Finals, the team with the best player wins. I'm not saying LeBron wasn't a better player than Dirk in 2010-2011, but Dirk was the best player in that series.
what's rare is when the best player in the league gets outplayed by another great (but lesser overall) player in the NBA finals. can't think of too many times where that's happened (maybe in 2004 when the Lakers lost to the Pistons). |
toxin.
06.24.13 | Dirk shot 42% against the Heat in 2011, anyone who thinks Dirk singlehandedly won it is stupid |
toxin.
06.24.13 | no one was better than shaq in the 2004 finals lol, kobe shot that finals away |
theacademy
06.24.13 | fuck basketball tho. baseball is better tbqh |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | @toxin good point, but stil, are you telling me that jordan dropped 41 because they defense in the finals was worse than it had been all year? i dont believe that. lebron scored 13 points in a game against the pacers this year, but when he had to play them in the ecf, he had one of his best games of the playoffs. players like jordan and kd play better in the playoffs, and especially in the finals. and you still havent named an on ball defender in the nba today who you think is better than lebron. |
Calc
06.24.13 | i love basketball |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | at this point I actually would rank baseball last out of the 4 major sports, in terms of how much I personally enjoy watching them. when I was really young it would've been my #1 though.
"no one was better than shaq in the 2004 finals lol, kobe shot that finals away"
that might actually be true, looking at the stats now, Chaucey Billups was damn good in that series though. also Malone, Fisher and Payton were horrendously bad, even worse than Kobe. |
dathvada321
06.24.13 | for me it's football, then basketball, then soccer, then baseball, then hockey |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Inveigh:
You sir, need to watch a different sport. And speak a different language. Your inability to grasp either the nuances of basketball or the fundamentals of the english language is shocking to say the least.
@Toxin:
PER's defensive calculations are 'hilariously stupid' eh? Kindly elaborate.
You're venturing into Inveigh territory with that argument. Since he's been in the league Kevin Durant has scored roughly the same number of points (more actually) with FAR greater accuracy and efficiency, so saying that high-scorer always= low shooting % is completely unsubstantiated.
At the same time, Shaquille O'Neal's shooting % didn't drop when he got more touches in pretty much the same system as Pau. The focus is not on the player "must shoot tons of shots" it's on, must touch ball to be allowed to score if possible or pass if necessary, and Pau is one of the best passing big men in the league and a generally excellent decision maker. Giving Pau lots of touches doesn't mean he's just going to simply start jacking up a bunch of bad shots. |
theacademy
06.24.13 | baseball is my favorite to watch live and to follow on the internet... baseball and football = really the only one where i have "a team" |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | PER isn't a perfect stat by any means, mostly because it doesn't measure individual defense very accurately. Chris Paul gets a lot of steals by gambling in the passing lanes, but I wouldn't necessarily call him a great defensive point guard. PER also seems to favor big men due to its emphasis on shooting percentage and rebounds.
it's still the best stat to measure overall offensive efficiency though.
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Inveigh
06.24.13 | and SitarHero I should probably stop entertaining your little straw man arguments here, but it's fun riling you up |
toxin.
06.24.13 | @dath, no I believe Jordan scored 41 because the Suns had no match for him, and because he was on an entirely different level back then. I don't even think it's fair using Jordan as an example but in any case, it wasn't just flipping a switch into overdrive.
And as for actually making a pick, it's tough to say. Offensive responsibilities notwithstanding? A single possession? One quarter? One game? One series? LeBron is an outstanding point guard defender but at the cost of a lot of energy on the offensive end. Then he's merely a good defender on players his size. Overall I'd pick Tony Allen, who's a better defender than LeBron but at the cost of flexibility (and offense lol) of LeBron being able to guard 4 possessions quite well. I'd throw in Avery Bradley as well but with the caveat that I sort of forgot how good he actually was and only remember my reactions to him playing ("holy shit his defense is amazing") |
BigHans
06.24.13 | There will never be a better basketball player than 91-93 Jordan. Completely and utterly unstoppable. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Inveigh:
You obviously don't know what a straw man argument is. Move along. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | Tony Allen would probably be my choice for best on-ball perimeter defender in the NBA, but LeBron and Avery Bradley are both really close. Bradley kind of fell apart toward the end of the year though.. |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "You obviously don't know what a straw man argument is"
yeah dude, you keep setting up fake arguments that no one is making, just so you can tear them down. no one ever said basketball was a one-on-one sport except for you, but that's the point you've been arguing against throughout this whole thread. likewise no one said that a single player wins championships one-on-five, but you took it upon yourself to disprove that notion too. |
Storm In A Teacup
06.24.13 | thunder up |
toxin.
06.24.13 | "PER's defensive calculations are 'hilariously stupid' eh? Kindly elaborate."
1) Steals and blocks, do I need to elaborate? I actually think that steals and defensive competence are generally inversely related.
2) Defensive ratings are the dumbest thing ever. What if you're Marc Gasol's replacement, by definition isn't your D Rtg. going to be worse? Since the team's obviously worse with you on the floor? Obviously this argument is usually more subtle, but any Laker sharing the court with Pau more than Dwight would have a worst D Rtg by virtue of not playing with Howard.
3) Rebounds. I consider this defense. In any case, this is idiotic. Thankfully PER uses rebounding percentage here, but I assume Bosh will have a higher rebounding percentage than Rondo but everyone knows in terms of rebounding Rondo is far more valuable than Bosh. Rbd% should be used in reference to how much better a player is than other players of his position, whatever the average should be. Rondo having an 11% Rbd% (no idea what the number is) doesn't tell me what, but knowing it's 3 standard deviations higher than the mean of 4.2% for PGs (made this up too) says that he's a phenomenal rebounder. As is, PER (in terms of rebound) is horribly biased towards big men.
Re: Shaq/Pau
1) I love Pau, but he's not Shaq. Shaq was such a dominant beast during the 3peat days it's not even fair comparing anyone to him.
2) ??????? Pau got plenty of touches! This misses my whole argument, what I'm saying is that within Phil's offense there are a certain amount of good shots that could be created for Pau, after that there's a huge dropoff. Pau was more or less right at that cutoff in terms of how many touches he got, I'm sure he could have had 1-3 more but that's it. Against that amazing Celtic defense that's probably another 3 points at maximum, that puts him up to 21.6 ppg. After that you couldn't realistically expect him to reach Kobe's 28.6 without his efficiency massively dropping. So it's not really fair to say "well Kobe only got to 28.6 because he shot more, Pau was more efficient" because for Pau to have gotten this high he would have been less accurate. Assuming anything else is disrespect to the Celtic D that was marvelous. |
Storm In A Teacup
06.24.13 | If Durant wins three rings and avg 30 ppg in the regular season and playoffs for the rest of his career he will go down as a top 20 all time player for sure |
toxin.
06.24.13 | The KD argument is dumb, check his numbers in the playoffs after Westbrook went down. Russ always took the bad shots for KD, and KD has had more shots created for him than Kobe. Case in point, KD had an absurd 52% assisted percentages (52% of his shots were assisted) which is quite high, Kobe's was just 33% though. (LeBron's hovers around 33% too, afaik) |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | Inveigh, do you even English?
Did I say you were SAYING basketball is a one-on-one sport, or THINKING OF basketball AS a one-on-one sport? Think fast!
But, since you asked for it:
"my point is that LeBron could have beaten that team and their zone defense if he had tried, but he didn't."
Like I said before. Move along. |
Storm In A Teacup
06.24.13 | toxin, noooooooooooo |
Inveigh
06.24.13 | "Did I say you were SAYING basketball is a one-on-one sport, or THINKING OF basketball AS a one-on-one sport? Think fast! "
yea that's pretty much a straw man argument, saying you know what I was thinking and that it contradicts what I'm saying is the same as putting words in my mouth
nice try though, you fought valiantly |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | I didn't put the words in your mouth Inveigh. You did. Or did you conveniently forget to read the second part of my last post. How conveniently convenient. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | @Toxin
I'll give you that Kobe definitely has more worth as a shot creator, and has a role to play in that sense. But there's little justification for low-efficiency/high volume shooting in the name of "Kobe assists" or the idea that someone HAS to take bad shots so that the rest of the team shoots better. Tony Parker is NOT a low-efficiency shooter, and neither are Steve Nash, Chris Paul or Lebron James, I know they're not all the same position, but I'm using them as examples of the primary ballhandler/shot-creator. Admittedly, James is the only one who is close to Kobe in terms of shooting volume, but that's not a knock on Nash and Parker, that's a knock on Kobe and Westbrook.
Comparing the 2003 playoffs to 2010, given their similar offensive ratings (Pau 122, Shaq 116) and True Shooting % (Pau 55.6, Shaq 57) one would assume that the same offensive system can find an equivalent number of touches (again, not necessarily shots), BUT Shaq had a usage% of 29.6 and Pau 22.4
Interestingly, Kobe's numbers across those two playoff runs are nearly identical. |
SitarHero
06.24.13 | Lakers 2010: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6608
Lakers 2003: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2003.html |
dathvada321
06.26.13 | @toxin tony allen is a fair choice. i think lebron trumps him simply because of his versatility, but that's just my opinion. |
Jesuslaves
06.26.13 | 1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Olajuwon
5. Magic
and why the fuck are shaq and pau gasol being compared |
SitarHero
06.26.13 | Gerald Wallace and 'Dre Iguodala belong in the conversation too. They do a better job against big men and are a threat on the boards. But the most entertaining guys to watch play defence, for me, are Rondo and Ricky Rubio, sure they get bullied by stronger guards, but those guys are probably the two players (along with Scottie Pippen) I'd hate having to dribble the ball against the most. |
Joshuafulerz
08.07.13 | Well thats not right
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Sleaper
08.07.13 | lol this thread.
How can anyone say lebron is not top 5 OAT.
what hes done by age 28 is outrageous. Fuck the haters |