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Old 05-10-2006, 09:49 PM   #1
dustindow
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Vladimir Putin Speech tenses realtions with U.S. and Russia

In Vladimir Putins' State-of-the-Nation speech, he called out the U.S.....read the link.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12723384/


Could it be the catalys of another cold war? Or start of militerise sp? paranoia? '

your thoughts?
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:53 PM   #2
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I doubt there will be another cold war, at least with Russia. If anything bad did happen, I garuntee it the U.S. will be at fault. Our government does set double standards and they are unreasonable. I don't think Putin said anything unreasonable in that speech. They have the right to protect themselves if they feal the need.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i am miik
I doubt there will be another cold war, at least with Russia. If anything bad did happen, I garuntee it the U.S. will be at fault. Our government does set double standards and they are unreasonable. I don't think Putin said anything unreasonable in that speech. They have the right to protect themselves if they feal the need.
Irony being that Putin has blatantly taken civil liberties away from the citizens.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:59 PM   #4
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I agree. With the U.S. double standards its only reasonable to be cautious. I'm wondering of if or when will we start to listen to our allies. Our aggressivness is somewhat a concern of mine. Our gun-ho tatics are dangerious internationally.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabolus in Musica
Irony being that Putin has blatantly taken civil liberties away from the citizens.
Irony being that we are going down that path as well, except we go around spreading democracy to other countries.

Barack 08'
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:03 PM   #6
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The best thing that could happen would be a coup by some freedom-loving liberals in Russia so that the US can get all their oil without having to pass through the treacherous waters of Iranian politics

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Lindsey Graham. bitch
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i am miik
Irony being that we are going down that path as well, except we go around spreading democracy to other countries*.

Barack 08'
*that don't necessarily ask for it
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabolus in Musica
Irony being that Putin has blatantly taken civil liberties away from the citizens.
Also cheney visits Kazakhstan to meet with president(dictator) Nursultan Nazarbayev to talk oil.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:06 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by mcmurray
*that don't necessarily ask for it
Even worse. So not only are we spreading policies that are completely against our own, we do it against there will.

It doesn't even make sense.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:08 PM   #10
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Even worse. So not only are we spreading policies that are completely against our own, we do it against there will.
Sorry wait. Are we not democratic? That's a damn good policy to spread. Better than communism

And is it really against their will? Against whose will? The insurgents, yes, but how much of Iraq is composed of insurgents? And how many greeted us initially? Do you remember when we toppled the giant statue of saddam?
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lfantwister
Sorry wait. Are we not democratic? That's a damn good policy to spread. Better than communism

And is it really against their will? Against whose will? The insurgents, yes, but how much of Iraq is composed of insurgents? And how many greeted us initially? Do you remember when we toppled the giant statue of saddam?
If you read my earlier post, I said that I think that the U.S. is subtly heading away from democracy. Everything the government does takes away freedoms rather than spreads them, at least in this country.

And i've never heard an Iraqi say that they wanted the U.S. to come and liberate them from Saddam. Iraq has been in ruins since Saddam left. Not only is it a warzone, they don't even have the infrastructure of Bagdahd set up yet. They only get like 6 hours of power a day and clean tap water is almost non existent, at least last I checked. This should have been priority number one.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i am miik
Irony being that we are going down that path as well, except we go around spreading democracy to other countries.
I know, actually we all know.
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He's a little bit to hot headed for my taste

Badanarik '08
Quote:
Originally Posted by i am miik
And i've never heard an Iraqi say that they wanted the U.S. to come and liberate them from Saddam. Iraq has been in ruins since Saddam left. Not only is it a warzone, they don't even have the infrastructure of Bagdahd set up yet. They only get like 6 hours of power a day and clean tap water is almost non existent, at least last I checked. This should have been priority number one.
Thats actually better then it was before. Don;t forget about the school that US has opened up.

You talk about the infrastructure like we are being lazy. Its pretty hard to get things up and running when there are constant attacks on convoys.

Last edited by gmoneyguy; 05-10-2006 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:21 PM   #13
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Its actually not better than before. And i'm just saying that providing basic needs for the citizens of a country we just "liberated" should be top priority. Instead, we have made it the top priority to fight of the herds of terrorists we are creating.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:23 PM   #14
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I need to move to some nice country that's not alienating everyone else.

Yeah yeah, I'm proud to be an American and all but the button is not a nice thing to think about.

Maybe Alaska's a good place to start. Or somewhere up in Canada.
 
Old 05-10-2006, 10:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i am miik
Its actually not better than before. And i'm just saying that providing basic needs for the citizens of a country we just "liberated" should be top priority. Instead, we have made it the top priority to fight of the herds of terrorists we are creating.
I was refering to the power. Its pretty hard to get the basic needs to citizens when you ahve insurgent groups interrupting operations. We both agree that the basics needs of citizens are a priority. Giving the citizens their basics needs is not as simple of a task as you make it out to be.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i am miik
Its actually not better than before. And i'm just saying that providing basic needs for the citizens of a country we just "liberated" should be top priority. Instead, we have made it the top priority to fight of the herds of terrorists we are creating.
a Study by the Center for Strategi and International Studies found that "85 percent of Saudi Militants who went to Iraq were not on any government watch list,al-Qauda members, or terrorist sympathizers" but were "radicalized almost exclusibely by the coalition invasion."

the year 2003 saw the highest number of terrorist attacks in two decades, and then, in 2004 the number tripled. Between 1980 and 2003 there were 315 suicide attacks worldwide. Since the US incasion, estimates of suicide bombing in Iraq( where such attacks were virtually unknown) range as high as 400. Iraq is now the biggest terrorist training ground.
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:00 PM   #17
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"radicalized almost exclusibely by the coalition invasion."
I would think that our support of Israel would do more to exacerbate the situation than that implied
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:08 PM   #18
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"Their house is their fortress. Good for them," he said of the US. "But that means that we must make our own house strong and firm. Because we can see what is happening in the world. As they say, 'Comrade Wolf knows whom to eat'. He eats and doesn't listen to anyone. And judging by appearances, he has no intention of listening," Mr Putin added, to applause from Russian ministers and parliamentarians in the Kremlin.


I wish my president could tell speeches like that.
 
Old 05-11-2006, 01:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lfantwister
Sorry wait. Are we not democratic? That's a damn good policy to spread. Better than communism

And is it really against their will? Against whose will? The insurgents, yes, but how much of Iraq is composed of insurgents? And how many greeted us initially? Do you remember when we toppled the giant statue of saddam?
Democracy is right in the American opinion.

Communism is right in a communist opinion.

Right is sunjective, let people decide what is right and wrong for them in their own way.
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Old 05-11-2006, 01:28 PM   #20
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Democracy is right in the American opinion.

Communism is right in a communist opinion.
The difference is that the communist is wrong. Authoritarianism doesn't have equal voice with democracy.
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Old 05-11-2006, 01:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Danny Rose
The difference is that the communist is wrong. Authoritarianism doesn't have equal voice with democracy.
It's not necessarily wrong. It's just different. Although it has been proven ineffective. So if thats what you mean by wrong, then yes, it is wrong. Right and wrong can also be subjective.
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Danny Rose
The difference is that the communist is wrong. Authoritarianism doesn't have equal voice with democracy.
Democracy isnt perfect you know - instead of the most suitable person for the job getting voted in, the person with the best public appeance get's the job instead.
Even if you pretend for a moment that people vote based on their political oppinion and not purely on a candidates public image, how does the average person on the street know whats best for a country (and thus indirectly themselves). Most of those people have studied economics, their oppinions are based more or less purely on the junk fed to them from the media.

Democracy seems fundamentaly flawed to me. Capitalism is even worse - an entire system based around the most fundamental flaw humans have - greed & the desire to make more money off other people.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:48 PM   #23
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Democracy isnt perfect you know - instead of the most suitable person for the job getting voted in, the person with the best public appeance get's the job instead.
Even if you pretend for a moment that people vote based on their political oppinion and not purely on a candidates public image, how does the average person on the street know whats best for a country (and thus indirectly themselves). Most of those people have studied economics, their oppinions are based more or less purely on the junk fed to them from the media.

Democracy seems fundamentaly flawed to me. Capitalism is even worse - an entire system based around the most fundamental flaw humans have - greed & the desire to make more money off other people.
Yeah it's definitely much better to have absolutely NO say in the government since the average person can't be trusted to have a legitimate claim in how the government is run... even if it takes their money and liberties. While democracy is obviously flawed, it is by far the best system we have.
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Danny Rose
The difference is that the communist is wrong. Authoritarianism doesn't have equal voice with democracy.

How do you know you haven't been indoctrinated by the western views?


I personally view 'Democracy' as the lesser of many evils, but the thing that gets me, is that; how do I know that I haven't been doctrinised my by my government/upbringing.

What is right and wrong will always be subjective as long as the human race exists. It's one of the bad points of free will
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:23 PM   #25
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Even if you can't admit that communism is wrong, you have to see that it's bad.


Quote:
Even worse. So not only are we spreading policies that are completely against our own, we do it against there will.
no you can't possibly let people choose their own government against their will.
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:30 PM   #26
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I personally view 'Democracy' as the lesser of many evils, but the thing that gets me, is that; how do I know that I haven't been doctrinised my by my government/upbringing.
Even if you hadn't been "brainwashed" by western thought into thinking democracy was the best option you could try to look at it objectively. Do a Descartes thing and un-learn all that you have been taught so you can find your own best political philosophy. Democracy makes sense because people determine how the government that rules them works--if you have less say or more say (anrchy) it's not as effective.

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What is right and wrong will always be subjective as long as the human race exists. It's one of the bad points of free will
...if we have free will. You never know
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:53 PM   #27
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Democracy isnt perfect you know - instead of the most suitable person for the job getting voted in, the person with the best public appeance get's the job instead.
That's why we do the whole representative democracy thing.
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Old 05-11-2006, 09:51 PM   #28
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But also democracy isn't for everyone. Example is Iraq. You cannot force democracy on a society that is religious based. You can have a type of democracy but it wouldn't be that of what the U.S. is "practicing".
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:28 PM   #29
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But also democracy isn't for everyone. Example is Iraq. You cannot force democracy on a society that is religious based. You can have a type of democracy but it wouldn't be that of what the U.S. is "practicing".
Government and religion should be separated to begin with. You can still practice whatever religion you want but it shouldn't be imposed on you, unless you elect a religious group to lead you. If that is the people's chioce(Hamas), it ought to be respected, as long as the democratic principles are upheld ie people still get to vote and have a significant range of personal liberties.
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:35 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lfantwister
Government and religion should be separated to begin with. You can still practice whatever religion you want but it shouldn't be imposed on you, unless you elect a religious group to lead you. If that is the people's chioce(Hamas), it ought to be respected, as long as the democratic principles are upheld ie people still get to vote and have a significant range of personal liberties.
You can't force that upon a country that has been that way for so long though. It would be like if they came over and wanted to make us a theocracy. Separation of church and state is really just a recent development in history.
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