arabian nites, arabina moons, funny guys

[QUOTE=chrono_t88]Alright, so we've covered tritone substitution, i know coltrane changes, we've (apparently "briefly") done reharmonization. All of which are things used nearly exclusively in jazz.

I have a solid understanding of scales and intervals and modes and all the rest of that begginer stuff, but i still feel i need more exclusive jazz theory, such as something in the vein of those things i mentioned in the first paragraph. Any suggestions would be fantastic.
Peace[/QUOTE]

I think at some point one has to apply theory to specific tunes. Say, you look at a standard and analyze the chord progression and melody, and then apply your theoretical concepts to it and see where it goes.

I am a novice myself, but I find that the theory doesn't always make sense until I see it in action, then suddenly I can hear it.

An example would be "girl from ipanema" - you have a chord progression that prominently features the bII and the bV chord....

there's a chart here http://www.songtrellis.com/picture$849

Anyway, a bII and bV seem like odd chords to me, and yet if you remember tritone substitution, a bII is the tritone of the V, and a bV is the tritone of the I. So, you can look at the progression again seeing a V where you saw bII, and a dominant I chord where you saw bV. Play it through this way, and you hear basically the same tune, but less sophisticated harmonically. This for me is a great lesson in how to use a tritone substitution compositionally to make a song more interesting and unique.

Another example would be the melodic minor. I could play the scale and the modes, but I didn't hear the music. Then I put on Miles Davis in the 50s, and I realized that the unique melodies I was hearing were based in many cases on melodic minor modes, such as the second mode (b2, b3, b7) or fifth mode (b6, b7) and the harmonizations thereof. Now I have a better sense of what I am going to get when I go to a melodic minor mode or the chords derived from it, and I was able to put together my own piece and give it a cool sound, utilizing the 3rd and 5th melodic minor modes. As a side effect I started hearing diatonic playing as sounding really lame, but whatever, you got to break some eggs.

Sorry if this is not helpful, I'm new here. I'm just saying that theory and practice have to go together. Jazz is a combination of music theory and real songs, you have to take pieces that you like and analyze them as closely as you can, and play them over and over while applying the information from theory.

Blue in Green
 

Blue In Green

I am doing a project on the differences between Miles Davies' Kind Of Blue version of Blue In Green and the Bill Evans Trio versions. Any theoretical pointers would appreciated.

Thank you,

Will.

Interesting, I didn't know the Bill Evans trio did a version, I'll have to check it out.

[QUOTE=Bryan Blakey]Interesting, I didn't know the Bill Evans trio did a version, I'll have to check it out.[/QUOTE]

I checked at the store, but couldn't find a version. Did the teacher ever say what record it's on?

hey spastic, a long time ago you told me the basic way of how to solo on a chord and it helped me a lot on making my walking basslines and now i'm ready to and would like to know how to solo over a chord progression, not just one single chord. help here. thanks.

[QUOTE=Bryan Blakey]Interesting, I didn't know the Bill Evans trio did a version, I'll have to check it out.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure they did it originally, and the Miles Davis version is a cover.

[QUOTE=Kaden]I'm pretty sure they did it originally, and the Miles Davis version is a cover.[/QUOTE]

I know Bill Evans wrote it, but I searched and couldn't find any albums with Blue in Green on it before 1959 (Kind of Blue recording date). Maybe his trio just never recorded it before then.

[QUOTE=tgadrummer]if you want a really cool arabic sound, try this scale, i don't know what it's technical name is, i've only heard it called the Byzantine Scale:

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 8

basically a harmonic minor scale with a flat 2 and a sharp 3.[/QUOTE]

I believe that's the Persian scale.

[QUOTE=Metalshark666]I believe that's the Persian scale.[/QUOTE]
No, he's right, its the byzantine. I've never heard it called the Persian scale but maybe.

I was working on tritone substitution just now and had a thought. The Tritone Substitution is when you substitute a dominant chord with the dominant chord a tritone away, i.e. substitute #F7 for C7. It works on the principal that the tritone between E and bB is present in both chords. Now, that it very useful, but I was thinking that that interval is present in other chords, so are they also possible tritone substitutions for C7?

The obvious example is the m7b5 chord - it has a tritone between the root and the b5. So Em7b5 and bBm7b5 will also contain the E / bB tritone from the C7 that is being substituted. Of course that's true of any E or bB chord with a b5 as well. This includes the diminished chord, as it has a flat five. Since E dim is the same notes as bB, bD, and G dim, they also all contain this tritone.

Moving on from there, a suspended chord with a major 7 contains a tritone between the 4th and 7th, so B sus Major 7 and F sus Major 7 also contain the E/bB tritone.

Obviously many other chords can be constructed that contain this tritone - 7b9 chords have a tritone between the 5th and b9, so bE7b9 and A7b9, and a minor chord with a natural 6 has this tritone as well.

I ended up with quite a list of chords that had the E/bB tritone, and a lot of them sound quite entertaining, esp. the quartal suspended major 7 chords, the diminished chords, and the 7b9. Does anyone know any resource that delves into this area of tritone substitutions or have a view they've developed on it? It's very interesting to me and I was hearing some nice sounds, but it's also a bit overwhelming to think of it this way.

While some (or all, I didn't really look into them, I just know off the top of my head that some of them like the 7b9 subs work well (note: you can also move them around by minor 3rds)) of the subs you listed work, they aren't directed related to tritone substitution. Tritone subsitution is based on the fact that the 3rd and the 7th chord tones of a dominant chord are the same notes as the 3rd and the 7th or a dominant chord a tritone away. The name comes from moving the chord a tritone away. The 3rd and 7th are important because they define the chord. However, chord tones such as the root and the 5th are not that important. While you can make those subs you listed, they aren't based on tritone substitution.

[QUOTE=spastic]. While you can make those subs you listed, they aren't based on tritone substitution.[/QUOTE]

well, you could rewrite them all as alterations of an #F7 if it would make it more palatable. thanks for response.

It's just basing your subs on two notes. Think of how many chords have two of the same notes as another. The reason the Tritone works so well is because the 3 and 7 define the chord. You can play just the 3 and 7 and it will still sound like the chord. The chord a tritone away also has the same 3 and 7 just switched so it's almost like adding tensions to the same chord once you put the root and or 5th on.

In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it

[QUOTE=Drummer54]In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it[/QUOTE]
Ok, thanks.

Why did you A. post this at all, and B. post this in jazz theory?

[QUOTE=Drummer54]In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it[/QUOTE]
It is amazing how little you know about music.

do you guys think II/V/I's are the most important thing to know in jazz?

No.

I'd have to agree with blakey, they are important but basic theory is probably more important.

[QUOTE=Drummer54]In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it[/QUOTE]
oh awesome, stfu idiot.

[QUOTE=xhaereticusx]I'd have to agree with blakey, they are important but basic theory is probably more important.[/QUOTE]


But let's put it this way, if you can't play over a II-V-I you might as well not play jazz.

Or learn how to.

Well yeah, that too

[QUOTE=spastic]But let's put it this way, if you can't play over a II-V-I you might as well not play jazz.[/QUOTE]

:upset: I feel like a total n00b after just setting foot in this thread.

I really want to be a jazz guitarist. I've been playing for two years and jazz is the music I hear in my head. I've got a basic knowledge of scales (major, minor, pentatonic minor, blues, chromatic) and chords (too many to name...I know a couple different shapes for most of the extended 7 chords). I know a few basic progressions, but I'm not very good at putting it all together.

I can't really afford a teacher right now, but I'm going to get one as soon as I can (or maybe take some classes at the local college). For now though, what do I need to be working on?

Well just so I don't give the wrong message to aspiring jazz musicians:

What I meant by my post was "If you aren't [i]willing[/i] to learn how to play over a II-V-I, you shouldn't be playing jazz." Every jazz musician couldn't play over a II-V-I at one point; you're no different.

I'd try to help you out, but I don't have enough time/my brain isn't functioning very well at the moment.

jazz guitar is very cool

[QUOTE=AmericanWeiner]:upset: I feel like a total n00b after just setting foot in this thread.

I really want to be a jazz guitarist. I've been playing for two years and jazz is the music I hear in my head. I've got a basic knowledge of scales (major, minor, pentatonic minor, blues, chromatic) and chords (too many to name...I know a couple different shapes for most of the extended 7 chords). I know a few basic progressions, but I'm not very good at putting it all together.

I can't really afford a teacher right now, but I'm going to get one as soon as I can (or maybe take some classes at the local college). For now though, what do I need to be working on?[/QUOTE]


You should learn how to read music. You should also learn all 7 modes so you can play along with chord changes. I recommend you to buy this book call "A Modern Method For Guitar" Volume 1 its a really good book for learning how to read and learning new chord forms. I didn't have a teacher until I was playing for two years and a lot of the stuff you need to learn is on the internet all you need to do is do a search on google or look at the forums on mxtabs.net.

[QUOTE=Bryan Blakey]I know Bill Evans wrote it, but I searched and couldn't find any albums with Blue in Green on it before 1959 (Kind of Blue recording date). Maybe his trio just never recorded it before then.[/QUOTE]

Bill Evans Trio - Portrait in Jazz - Has two takes of Blue in Green...i'm not sure who wrote it; although it says that Miles wrote it (in the real book), it also claims that Evans at the very least, co-wrote it. I'd recommend getting the album, even if you didn't need the Blue in Green track. Two great takes of Autumn Leaves there.

If you take a look at the Kind of Blue liner notes, on the page that lists the tracks, it lists them all and says "All compositions by Miles Davis" or something to that effect.